Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Grim Tuesday]

I'd be one of the first to suggest that MK beats ZSS a lot harder than everyone believes if the MK knows the match-up, but whatever

 

[Ripple]

ZSS doesn't really get better. MK isn't even in her top two worst match-ups.

who are??????

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

except that he already HAS been proven broken.

lets see...

1. he already does prevent A LOT of other characters from even coming close to winning in tournaments.

Every character he hard counters has at least one, usually two or three other hard counter top tier matchups. Furthermore, when is this not the case with top tier characters? Go take a look at Fox, Falco, and Marth's melee matchup spreads. They **** on most of the rest of the cast like Metaknight does.

2. he breaks the entire counterpick system of smash, stagewise and character wise.

This is not the first time a character has had no bad matchups in a game. In fact, the rarity is actually when this isn't the case. Even the meticulously well-balanced street fighter games commonly have this. What's even better, Japan seems to be shoving hard towards the idea that Olimar actually does counter Metaknight, at least on stages that aren't RC and brinstar. And never mind that the stages that really break the **** out of him aren't really legal anywhere in the world beyond the Unity Ruleset, save for a few rare exceptions.

3. He he's had several special rules put in place strictly to nerf him in order to TRY to keep him less broken then he was(and he got around most of those rules anyway.)

Do me a favor and look up the LGL in the current unity ruleset. Does it say "Only for Metaknight"? Or does it say "everyone has an LGL"? Yeah, thought so. This argument can kindly **** off and die; it was not honest in the beginning and it's not honest now.

Metaknight is not broken. In the states, he's overcentralizing, which I understand as a viable reason. But we really need to stop pretending that we banned him for any other reason than because we were sick of seeing him. He's not broken, and he's not really an issue.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'd be one of the first to suggest that MK beats ZSS a lot harder than everyone believes if the MK knows the match-up, but whatever

Suggesting MKs don't know the match-up? That's soooo 2009.

who are??????

Falco and Diddy, probably.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Losing one of his -2 MUs definitely helps Luc, though more D3s and Snakes doesn't. :<

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Every character he hard counters has at least one, usually two or three other hard counter top tier matchups.

This is just plain incorrect.

This is not the first time a character has had no bad matchups in a game. In fact, the rarity is actually when this isn't the case. Even the meticulously well-balanced street fighter games commonly have this.

Most games don't have a counterpick system, your comparison is invalid.

What's even better, Japan seems to be shoving hard towards the idea that Olimar actually does counter Metaknight, at least on stages that aren't RC and brinstar.

That is... the second stupidest thing I've heard you say. I haven't forgotten when you said that Marth counters MK.

Suggesting MKs don't know the match-up? That's soooo 2009.

ZSS is hella uncommon. Tornado pressures her pretty hard and once she is airborne, an MK who knows her options will devastate her. She gets gimped pretty hard as well.

 

[Divinokage]

You have no way of knowing how "split" the scene will be. Personally, I think all of this nonsense about a bunch of people moving off and starting their own scene or quitting is a three year-old pot of paranoid bull****, but that's just me. I think the impassioned forum posts are much easier to make than a new community that will give them free money, so they'll pick up another character and keep playing. And as for melee players? Couldn't give a damn. You guys have been doing nothing but talking about how little you want to play Brawl since the day it came out, so of anyones' opinions on our split community, I care the least about yours.

Every time anyone has declared the death of the smash community, I liken it to a group of crazies standing outside the subway stop with signs predicting the end of the world. And just like in these cases, I'd guess the world will keep spinning.

Well if you don't know me very well then you should not put me in a group of people to base off your judgement. I mean you aren't even from the US so what business do you have in emitting an opinion which doesn't even concern you in the first place? You talk as if you are part of "this" community.

 

[Serris]

Hey, guys. Stop the "you aren't entitled to give X opinion because Y" stuff now. Thanks.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Tornado isn't the worst thing about the MK match-up or even close. ZSS has really strong options to at least avoid tornado and several ways of knocking him out of it... there's even a post floating around by M2k saying Tornado sucks against her. She can just hold up and pop out at the beginning, too, which helps.

The worst things are grounded shuttle loop and ftilt/dtilt mix-ups that mess up her mid-range spacing on the ground. I wouldn't say she gets gimped by MK either. She does, however, take a lot of damage before coming back on, usually.

Kage, I live in Portugal but I've only been here for about seven months. I'm American. I'm originally from Florida and lived in New York City for two months before coming here where I was reasonably involved in the local scene.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh, tornado is pretty beastly in my experience. Though I think it is amazing in every match-up, so eh.

But yeah, either way I think the MU comes out as -3 (realistically: -2 because the ZSS will always be more experience in the MU than the MK).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

-3? No. -2 at worst and probably not. ZSS does a really nice job at keeping MK out on the ground. She makes it pretty hard for him to approach there and he has to go into the air. The biggest problems are ZSS losing her lead by a substantial amount (she kind of sucks at getting it back) and the aforementioned off-stage problems. There are plenty of videos out there of good MK vs good ZSS now. Look one up.

ZSS is like -1 MK, -2 Diddy, -2 Falco. After that she has a pretty good spread.

 

[Thino]

except that he already HAS been proven broken.

lets see...

1. he already does prevent A LOT of other characters from even coming close to winning in tournaments.

2. he breaks the entire counterpick system of smash, stagewise and character wise.

3. He he's had several special rules put in place strictly to nerf him in order to TRY to keep him less broken then he was(and he got around most of those rules anyway.)



Metaknight HAS already been proven to be broken, the fact that special rules are needed in order to just *try* to keep him in check is already pretty much a clear indicator of that.

Except none of those are reasons that proves a character is broken

1. if he prevents A LOT of characters from winning tournaments, then it just means that he's stronger than that lot of character, sucks for them then.

People need to stop seeing character variety as a factor of competitiveness or as evidence that a character is broken, winning tournaments over all other characters is exactly what top tiers do, there's nothing "broken" about that, if there's only one top tier instead of many then that's how the game is.

2. The counterpick system was introduced by the community, it's not part of the game, if a character happens to break it, the character is just that strong to break a man-made rule/system, change it or, if it doesn't work disregard the counterpick system and play only on neutral stages.

and if MK is stronger than other characters on neutral stages then.. he is stronger than other characters on neutral stages. It's normal for a character to be stronger than another on one stage, the community introduced this standard about a character having necessarily ONE bad counter-stage BECAUSE of the counterpick system

3. Just because there are special rules against a character does not mean he's broken either, it might just mean the community doesn't wanna deal with specific tools of a character because they find them boring, that is also a valid reason to make specific rules against one character.

MK planking and LGL for example, those are just there because the majority of the Brawl communit doesn't like timeouts or stalling, when it's a perfectly legit way to win since the time limit IS part of the rules, but strategies involving using the time are heavily frowned upon

but there is nothing broken about abusing the time, its cowardly, boring, not fun, not cool to look at, takes no skill..everything you want, but not BROKEN.

those rules aren't there to keep him from being more broken , you cannot use the broken argument as you haven't really proven yet that he is actually broken.

those rules are there because the community doesn't wanna deal with certain of MK tools/ways to win.

PLUS

most of the post above already admitted that MK got banned because of the community decision, because most (70%) voted him to be banned, for various reason that are individual to the persons that voted , one of them being "he wins all the tournaments".

not because he is broken, or else it would have been mentioned why he's broken in the first post in this thread.

there is nothing wrong with all that mind you , but stop trying to make it look that its because he's actually broken

 

[Grim Tuesday]

-3? No. -2 at worst and probably not. ZSS does a really nice job at keeping MK out on the ground. She makes it pretty hard for him to approach there and he has to go into the air. The biggest problems are ZSS losing her lead by a substantial amount (she kind of sucks at getting it back) and the aforementioned off-stage problems. There are plenty of videos out there of good MK vs good ZSS now. Look one up.

ZSS is like -1 MK, -2 Diddy, -2 Falco. After that she has a pretty good spread.

-1 MK? That's laughable. You really think ZSS does as well as Falco/Diddy Kong/Snake/Fox/Olimar/etc...?

Pro Tip: She doesn't.

Anyway, the first high level video of the match-up I found was Seibrik vs. Nick Riddle. From what I saw, every hit that Nick Riddle landed on Seibrik came from a stupid mistake Seibrik made (usually random shuttle loops or botched attempts to get a string or combo out of every single hit).

All in all he played too aggressive, didn't know when to actively chase after Nick for extra percent and when to opt for gaining a positional advantage instead and just general unawareness of ZSS' options in a few situations.

If you watch the match, I'm sure you'll agree.

And the funny part: He still ended up winning.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This is just plain incorrect.

All right, almost every one. Go ahead and list the ones that don't.

Most games don't have a counterpick system, your comparison is invalid.

Yes, yes they do. Not in the same way we do, but it's there. Ours is simply more central and less balanced.

That is... the second stupidest thing I've heard you say. I haven't forgotten when you said that Marth counters MK.

The only really good olimar in the USA quit, shortly after beating M2K. When brood came last time he wrecked ****. Right now we have Logic and Dabuz, neither of which were at RichBrown or Brood's level. And regarding marth... The USA has one good Marth, and I really hope you aren't implying that he's on a similar level to Mr R or Leon (I mean no offense to him, but really? He just isn't). These things are possible, especially when it comes to underplayed, underdeveloped characters with incredibly strong tools.

Also, Quiksilver has been trouncing pretty much every MK he comes across with ZSS in Germany. Orion has started using Falco instead. Just thought I'd mention that.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

All in all he played too aggressive, didn't know when to actively chase after Nick for extra percent

Yeah, this is where I stopped taking oyu seriously. He probably knows the MU better than any MK in the country. He also knows that in many cases you can't just chase after her for extra percent because she has moves that come out on frame 1 and several moves you can't punish after shielding. Any specific examples for me?

 

[Ussi]

All right, almost every one. Go ahead and list the ones that don't.

if -3 = hard counter: Ike (MK is his only -3)

if -2 = hard counter then Ike has only 1 (Olimar)

 

[Tarmogoyf]

@Grim:I'd prefer this one actually:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2MEHOxEWWo

About 8:55 is tryant (much less ZSS exp) Vs Nick Riddle

 

[Yuna]

I fail to understand why this is a problem, I guess. Do you have any reasoning that doesn't come down to some kind of long, philosophical rant dipped in delicious Sirlinism?

I fail to see why it's a valid reason. It's mob mentality. If the majority dislikes something, it is gone.

Not all items are broken. Some are, some aren't.

They spawn randomly at quasi-random intervals on pre-set spots (but you cannot predict where the next item will spawn). The only items which aren't in any way possibly game-breaking are the most useless ones, but they still spawn randomly and pretty much every single item that isn't a CD or sticker has the potential to change the outcome of a match because every single item can inflict damage. This would not be a problem if they did not spawn randomly.

On top of that, Brawl functions on Scrub Mechanics. If a player is ahead in stocks, it's easier to knock items out of their hands. If a player is behind in stocks, it's harder to knock items out of their hands.

So they're random, can all influence the outcome of a match (even he most useless ones, if it's a close match), which would not a problem in and of itself were it not for the whole randomness problem and they favour the losing party because Sakurai is an idiot.

We ban **** because we don't like it. We have the timer set to 8 minutes because we like 8 minutes. 7 minutes? Blasphemy. 9 minutes? 10 minutes? **** that ****, I have **** to do. I want my 8 minute matches. I want my fast-paced itemless, Rumble Fallsless, 8-minute foxonlynoitemsfinaldestination showdowns with my favorite furry Nintendo characters and you do, too.

We don't ban things simply because we don't like it. This is why every single ban is preceded by vigorous debate on both sides with the pro-ban side expected to prove the bannability of the mechanic/stage/character/etc. in question beyond "We don't like it".

The 8 minute time limit is set to prevent matches that drag on for an eternity (because tournaments cannot afford such matches due to time constraints) and in order to make the time-out a viable option.

This game isn't good enough to put it on some kind of pedestal and have discussions about what the right and wrong decision is.

Then stop playing it instead of banning things because "it's more fun" if they're gone..

This is false.

Serlin even says that if a majority thinks the game is far better with it gone then it is acceptable to ban.

When did I ever state that the world of Competitive videogaming starts and ends with Sirlin?

It's not because it was the make the game more fun, it was because he made more money/placed more than people were comfortable with. Overcentralization is a legit argument for a bad, I don't know why you would suggest it isn't.

I didn't say that over-centralization isn't a legit reason. Over-centralization by choice isn't. If a character over-centralizes the game because they're simply so good they absolutely destroy the rest of the roster, then they are broken and should be banned. However, if they over-centralize the game simply because people choose to play as them for whatever reason besides them being broken (as in they're simply the best character in the game), then they should stay.

Rules were put in place just to nerf him, something that in itself is bad. Remove them and watch the fun unfold.

What rules? Rules to nerf planking in general (it's not like Meta-Knight is the only character who can plank well)? Or the ban of his D.I.C.K., which is just excessive stalling, anyway?

Yeah slavery sucks and so did other mob mentality issues with humans rights. This isn't either of them, this is an issue of a video game character in a competitive gaming community.

Mob mentality always sucks. Banning something simply because the majority wants it gone with no other arguments presented is always wrong.

Toon Link.

OMG! A 35:65! What a horrible match-up! Also, this totally means MK should be banned because Toon Link shouldn't have to accept having a match-up as bad as 35:65! MK is Toon Link's worst match-up. Obvously, ban!

Quickly, ban Toon Link because Toon Link holds a 65:35 against Zelda!

I wasn't clear enough in my previous post. I don't consider anything that isn't at least a 30:70 a "horrible" match-up and even a 30:70 is iffy (and a 30:70 is certainly not enough to warrant any discussions of banning).

Anyway, it isn't just that. Meta Knight didn't just destroy characters, he destroyed them with ease.

So now we're back to the "He's too easy to pick up!" argument? So it's totally A-OK to destroy everyone else if it requires technical skill because... technical skill!

He breaks the counterpick system because it is impossible to gain an advantage over him. It is impossible to gain an advantage on your counter-pick (which is what they are designed for) if your opponent either mains or has a pocket MK, no exceptions.

Again, how is this broken? Several highly Competitive fighting games have characters with no counter-picks. SWF is so obsessed with counter-picks that if one lacks counter-picks, one is viewedd as being broken. No, one is just uncommon. Just because one breaks the counter-pick system doesn't mean that one is automatically broken.

Hardly, stalling and camping are two very different things. The distinction is that stalling actually stalls out the game. A beatable (in theory) tactic like Meta Knight's planking is just an extremely strong defensive position, you can't assume that the MK is trying to stall the game out, he is trying to maintain an advantage. On the other hand, if MK was extending his dimensional cape indefinitely he is actively trying to stall the match until time runs out.

The reason why rules to limit planking was even implemented was because many characters as so helpless against it is it in effect excessive stalling against them.

Most games don't have a counterpick system, your comparison is invalid.

Yes they do. 2D fighters simply do not involve any stage counterpicking due to all stages function in the same way. While many 3D fighters do not have a counterpick system, stages still factor into things.

That is... the second stupidest thing I've heard you say. I haven't forgotten when you said that Marth counters MK.

It's only stupid if it's untrue. I have no opinion on the subject because I have no clue what the Japanese are doin with their Meta-Knight.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

if -3 = hard counter: Ike (MK is his only -3)

if -2 = hard counter then Ike has only 1 (Olimar)

...Olimar only goes +2 against Ike? Seriously?

 

[Ussi]

...Olimar only goes +2 against Ike? Seriously?

It used to be -1 then Olimars started whistling everything

 

[Grim Tuesday]

All right, almost every one. Go ahead and list the ones that don't.

Firstly, what do you consider a hard counter?

The only really good olimar in the USA quit, shortly after beating M2K. When brood came last time he wrecked ****. Right now we have Logic and Dabuz, neither of which were at RichBrown or Brood's level. And regarding marth... The USA has one good Marth, and I really hope you aren't implying that he's on a similar level to Mr R or Leon (I mean no offense to him, but really? He just isn't). These things are possible, especially when it comes to underplayed, underdeveloped characters with incredibly strong tools.

Also, Quiksilver has been trouncing pretty much every MK he comes across with ZSS in Germany. Orion has started using Falco instead. Just thought I'd mention that.

You seem to be under the impression that I am USA-biased, not calling you out or anything, most people are, just clearing up that I watch european and japanese matches as well.

Anyway, it doesn't matter that x player is beating y mk main with z character. I know Marth's tools. I know Olimar's tools. I know ZSS' tools and I definitely know that MK's tools are superior.

I wrote this a while ago to try and explain why no one beats MK:

Spoiler

Essentially, every confrontation or conflict in every fighting game in existence is a game of rock-paper-scissors. Both players have different options (different attacks, blocking, dodging, etc...) and those options counter other options.

There are obviously quite a few differences between fighting games and rock-paper-scissors, though. There are a few reasons for that:
• All of the "throws" are weighted. In other words, different options have different advantages and disadvantages. This is analogous to if you were playing a Best of 3 set of RPS games, where winning with "Scissors" caused you to automatically win the entire Bo3 set.
• There are MANY of these situations that occur during a single game, thousands, even, instead of a low amount like in an RPS set.
• There are a vastly larger number of options than the traditional rock, paper and scissors. Every action that a character can perform is an option that is a part of the RPS scenario.

On a seemingly unrelated topic, many moves in fighting games are considered to be "safe", even when they whiff and your opponent is within your "zone". The easiest way to explain how safe a move is is via the 'Multiple RPS' concept.

If an action protects the player in some way while it is being performed (with a decently sized hit-box, invincibility, etc...), has very short ending lag and the character performing it has an attack with comes out quickly, the first move can create a 'Double RPS' situation. What I mean by this is that the opponent will, in most cases, be unable to punish the first move due to the aforementioned traits, which allows the first player to perform a second move that the opponent will ALSO have to play RPS with before being able to punish the first player.

To provide a Brawl example, think of Meta Knight spacing and camping with his Down Air. For most characters, punishing the dair will require either a hard read, a well placed hitbox or a power-shield. If a player cannot pull off one of those options and attempts to punish normally, they will have to prepare for another Dair, Shuttle Loop, Ftilt, Dtilt or Uair (if they come from above). This means that they have to play RPS twice, once to avoid the dair while still getting in Meta Knight's zone and then a second time to avoid his follow-up.

The majority of characters can pull this off, even many low tiers (spacing in this fashion via bair is a large part of Jigglypuff's gameplay, for example). The only character who cannot pull a 'double RPS' off in viable situations is Ganondorf due to his very slow, punishable attacks.

It's worth noting that the number of RPS situations an action can produce is not static and depends on how close the opponent is and the match-up. For example, a character like Falco can create LOTS of simultaneous RPS situations on Final Destination by firing SHDL at a Ganondorf on the opposite side of the stage.

Which brings me to my final point, one of the main reasons with Meta Knight is so good is that he can create these 'double RPS' situations FAR more frequently than any other character with his Ftilt, Dtilt, Uair, Dair, Grab, Shuttle Loop, Fsmash and Dsmash. His Ftilt and Shuttle Loop can lead to large numbers of RPS games, which can make them ridiculously difficult to punish for many characters.

This is such a powerful trait of Meta Knight that the characters who are said to only lose -1 (slight disadvantage) against Meta Knight mainly do so well because they are good enough at punishing to keep MK's RPS creation ability down to the level of a standard character. Diddy Kong's bananas, Fox's speed, Falco's laser frame traps and DACUS, Marth's Dolphin Slash, etc...

Understanding this RPS element of Meta Knight's game is key to seeing exactly what it is that makes him so safe, and determining how that affects the metagame as a whole.

Yeah, this is where I stopped taking oyu seriously. He probably knows the MU better than any MK in the country. He also knows that in many cases you can't just chase after her for extra percent because she has moves that come out on frame 1 and several moves you can't punish after shielding. Any specific examples for me?

0.30 - Unsafe Shuttle Loop
0.35 - Unsafe Shuttle Loop
0.37 - Grabbed when he should've shielded or done something more defensive
0.41 - Got hit by the dash attack because he was trying to use an attack instead of a defensive option, like above
0.47 - Did the same thing again
0.49 - Chased after extra percent
1.10 - Just as I thought he was starting to play the MU correctly, he lets Nick fall safely, know Uair pressure at all >_>

That is just the first minute, and these aren't even things I noticed in hindsight. I just spotted all of those mistakes as soon as he made them and it amazes me that you needed me to point them out for you.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It used to be -1 then Olimars started whistling everything

I was pretty ****ing sure that that was one of the worse matchups not based on a chaingrab or some similar bull****.

 

[-LzR-]

Doesn't the bthrow to dash attack help a lot against Olimar?

 

[Ussi]

I was pretty ****ing sure that that was one of the worse matchups not based on a chaingrab or some similar bull****.

San does well against all Olimars he's faced (usually bringing them to last stock if not winning) and he went 1-2 vs Brood in friendlies

Riddle vs Greward also happened in MMs he won 2-1 in sets


Big thing that helped Ike was bthrow > dash attack throwing Olimar off the stage... but... he whistles out of it by 66% now

 

[Grim Tuesday]

@Grim:I'd prefer this one actually:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2MEHOxEWWo

About 8:55 is tryant (much less ZSS exp) Vs Nick Riddle

Watching now...

Stuff

Yeah... no. You aren't worth debating with.

 

[Yuna]

Yeah... no. You aren't worth debating with.

Because I'm asking you to prove something you cannot prove? Nice refutation!

I can see why Meta-Knight is banned in the U.S. if this is the currently mentality that is plaguing its scene.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I knew you'd say that, lol.

No, I'm not going to debate with you because you have no idea how a debate is structured.

You, in all of your confidence, ask for the name of a character who gets hard countered by MK but no one else. I point out Toon Link, so what is your response?:

OMG! A 35:65! What a horrible match-up! Also, this totally means MK should be banned because Toon Link shouldn't have to accept having a match-up as bad as 35:65! MK is Toon Link's worst match-up. Obvously, ban!

Quickly, ban Toon Link because Toon Link holds a 65:35 against Zelda!

Do you know what a strawman argument is, Yuna? Look it up.

Lets pull out another interesting quote, shall we?

So now we're back to the "He's too easy to pick up!" argument? So it's totally A-OK to destroy everyone else if it requires technical skill because... technical skill!

You see, I never said anything about banning MK because he is too easy to pick up. Your triumphant sarcastic tone really makes you unpleasant to deal with, sorry.

I was quite clearly pointing out that MK's ease of use makes him easier to use as a "pocket" character, which supports my point that DK will become more viable because he won't have to deal with his hard counters as frequently as he used to, because his remaining hard counter is more difficult to use as a pocket character.

 

[Yuna]

I knew you'd say that, lol.

No, I'm not going to debate with you because you have no idea how a debate is structured.

You, in all of your confidence, ask for the name of a character who gets hard countered by MK but no one else. I point out Toon Link, so what is your response?:

Do you know what a strawman argument is, Yuna? Look it up.

My response was:
A 35:65 is not a horrible match-up. When did I ever actually use the term "hard-counter"? Heck, it's iffy if it's even a hard-counter.

You see, I never said anything about banning MK because he is too easy to pick up. Your triumphant sarcastic tone really makes you unpleasant to deal with, sorry.

So what exactly did you mean by "Anyway, it isn't just that. Meta Knight didn't just destroy characters, he destroyed them with ease." then?

I was quite clearly pointing out that MK's ease of use makes him easier to use as a "pocket" character, which supports my point that DK will become more viable because he won't have to deal with his hard counters as frequently as he used to, because his remaining hard counter is more difficult to use as a pocket character.

What the... in what way, shape or form is his not the "Ease of use" argument?!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

My response was:
A 35:65 is not a horrible match-up. When did I ever actually use the term "hard-counter"? Heck, it's iffy if it's even a hard-counter.

Subjectivity and semantics an argument do not make.

So what exactly did you mean by "Anyway, it isn't just that. Meta Knight didn't just destroy characters, he destroyed them with ease." then?

I meant exactly what I said. I wasn't talking about legality at all, mind you, I was entirely focused on character viability. Inferring from my post that I believed MK should be banned because of his ease of use was a mistake on your part.

ZSS Stuff
ANYWAY: After watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2MEHOxEWWo

I'd say that is actually a really good example of what I was talking about. The first stock was a little shaky with the MK playing the correct safeness defensively but not really putting on enough pressure with tilts and 'nado, and his inability to get past neutral b made me facepalm a little, but the second stock completely made up for it. He did almost everything right and nearly every time he got hit it was because of his inexperience, not Nick out-optioning him. On the third stock he missed a lot of edge-guarding opportunities cause he was staying too high, and he was overall just playing a little too aggressive and trying to end the match.

To anyone curious, I believe that Tearbear is the best Meta Knight in terms of how he plays the character. M2K does it right sometimes... and other times he just fails horribly, so eh :/

 

[Yuna]

Subjectivity and semantics an argument do not make.

You argue that a 35:65 is a hard-counter. I disagree. How can you declare yourself the "winner"?

I meant exactly what I said. I wasn't talking about legality at all, mind you, I was entirely focused on character viability. Inferring from my post that I believed MK should be banned because of his ease of use was a mistake on your part.

Yes, it is entirely my fault that I interpret a post of yours regarding the legality of MK and the whys of why he should be banned as being entirely about things for which you think MK should be banned, even a section where you complain about MK being easy to use with absolutely zero indication that it should be viewed separately from the rest of your post where you speak of only of MK's viability as a legal character, so that this specific section should instead be viewed as a non-sequitor where you simply complain about MK being easy to use for... absolutely no good reason since it apparently wasn't the for the sake of arguing whether MK should be banned or not but simply for the sake of... complaining about MK?

I will concede this point and apologize for not being psychic.

 

[Ripple]

You argue that a 35:65 is a hard-counter. I disagree. How can you declare yourself the "winner"?

because you aren't responding to the original point

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You argue that a 35:65 is a hard-counter. I disagree. How can you declare yourself the "winner"?

I didn't win anything lolz, you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

Yes, it is entirely my fault that I interpret a post of yours regarding the legality of MK and the whys of why he should be banned as being entirely about things for which you think MK should be banned

Yep.

even a section where you complain about MK being easy to use with absolutely zero indication that it should be viewed separately from the rest of your post

...It wasn't supposed to be viewed separately from the rest of my post... NOWHERE in my post do I say anything about why MK should be banned. I was merely correcting mistakes.

where you speak of only of MK's viability as a legal character, so that this specific section should instead be viewed as a non-sequitor where you simply complain about MK being easy to use for... absolutely no good reason since it apparently wasn't the for the sake of arguing whether MK should be banned or not but simply for the sake of... complaining about MK?

Actually, I was making a point about how Meta Knight affects character viability. Re-read my post.

I will concede this point and apologize for not being psychic.

Apology accepted.

 

[Yuna]

because you aren't responding to the original point

I made the original point.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Firstly, what do you consider a hard counter?

Let's say worse than 60-40.

You seem to be under the impression that I am USA-biased, not calling you out or anything, most people are, just clearing up that I watch european and japanese matches as well.

Anyway, it doesn't matter that x player is beating y mk main with z character. I know Marth's tools. I know Olimar's tools. I know ZSS' tools and I definitely know that MK's tools are superior.

I wrote this a while ago to try and explain why no one beats MK:

Spoiler

Essentially, every confrontation or conflict in every fighting game in existence is a game of rock-paper-scissors. Both players have different options (different attacks, blocking, dodging, etc...) and those options counter other options.

There are obviously quite a few differences between fighting games and rock-paper-scissors, though. There are a few reasons for that:
• All of the "throws" are weighted. In other words, different options have different advantages and disadvantages. This is analogous to if you were playing a Best of 3 set of RPS games, where winning with "Scissors" caused you to automatically win the entire Bo3 set.
• There are MANY of these situations that occur during a single game, thousands, even, instead of a low amount like in an RPS set.
• There are a vastly larger number of options than the traditional rock, paper and scissors. Every action that a character can perform is an option that is a part of the RPS scenario.

On a seemingly unrelated topic, many moves in fighting games are considered to be "safe", even when they whiff and your opponent is within your "zone". The easiest way to explain how safe a move is is via the 'Multiple RPS' concept.

If an action protects the player in some way while it is being performed (with a decently sized hit-box, invincibility, etc...), has very short ending lag and the character performing it has an attack with comes out quickly, the first move can create a 'Double RPS' situation. What I mean by this is that the opponent will, in most cases, be unable to punish the first move due to the aforementioned traits, which allows the first player to perform a second move that the opponent will ALSO have to play RPS with before being able to punish the first player.

To provide a Brawl example, think of Meta Knight spacing and camping with his Down Air. For most characters, punishing the dair will require either a hard read, a well placed hitbox or a power-shield. If a player cannot pull off one of those options and attempts to punish normally, they will have to prepare for another Dair, Shuttle Loop, Ftilt, Dtilt or Uair (if they come from above). This means that they have to play RPS twice, once to avoid the dair while still getting in Meta Knight's zone and then a second time to avoid his follow-up.

The majority of characters can pull this off, even many low tiers (spacing in this fashion via bair is a large part of Jigglypuff's gameplay, for example). The only character who cannot pull a 'double RPS' off in viable situations is Ganondorf due to his very slow, punishable attacks.

It's worth noting that the number of RPS situations an action can produce is not static and depends on how close the opponent is and the match-up. For example, a character like Falco can create LOTS of simultaneous RPS situations on Final Destination by firing SHDL at a Ganondorf on the opposite side of the stage.

Which brings me to my final point, one of the main reasons with Meta Knight is so good is that he can create these 'double RPS' situations FAR more frequently than any other character with his Ftilt, Dtilt, Uair, Dair, Grab, Shuttle Loop, Fsmash and Dsmash. His Ftilt and Shuttle Loop can lead to large numbers of RPS games, which can make them ridiculously difficult to punish for many characters.

This is such a powerful trait of Meta Knight that the characters who are said to only lose -1 (slight disadvantage) against Meta Knight mainly do so well because they are good enough at punishing to keep MK's RPS creation ability down to the level of a standard character. Diddy Kong's bananas, Fox's speed, Falco's laser frame traps and DACUS, Marth's Dolphin Slash, etc...

Understanding this RPS element of Meta Knight's game is key to seeing exactly what it is that makes him so safe, and determining how that affects the metagame as a whole.

So... Metaknight is broken because theorycraft? Okay, good to know.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

ZSS Stuff
ANYWAY: After watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2MEHOxEWWo

I'd say that is actually a really good example of what I was talking about. The first stock was a little shaky with the MK playing the correct safeness defensively but not really putting on enough pressure with tilts and 'nado, and his inability to get past neutral b made me facepalm a little, but the second stock completely made up for it. He did almost everything right and nearly every time he got hit it was because of his inexperience, not Nick out-optioning him. On the third stock he missed a lot of edge-guarding opportunities cause he was staying too high, and he was overall just playing a little too aggressive and trying to end the match.

Tyrant basically won anyways. He started a stock down from M2K last round (it's crews lol)

 

[Ripple]

I made the original point.

The vast majority of those characters are horrible characters who won't have a much easier time coming close to winning tournaments even with Meta-Knight gone. It's pretty much just a case of them having one less horrible mach-up to contend with now. Yippie-kay-ay!

Name every single character Meta-Knight allegedly destroys and I will name at least 1 additional character besides Meta-Knight who also destroys them for each of those characters.

Toon Link

OMG! A 35:65! What a horrible match-up! Also, this totally means MK should be banned because Toon Link shouldn't have to accept having a match-up as bad as 35:65! MK is Toon Link's worst match-up. Obvously, ban!

Quickly, ban Toon Link because Toon Link holds a 65:35 against Zelda!

seems like a obvious strawman to me

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

When did I ever state that the world of Competitive videogaming starts and ends with Sirlin?

He is credible.

Heck I agree with him on everything but one or two topics.

I didn't say that over-centralization isn't a legit reason. Over-centralization by choice isn't. If a character over-centralizes the game because they're simply so good they absolutely destroy the rest of the roster, then they are broken and should be banned. However, if they over-centralize the game simply because people choose to play as them for whatever reason besides them being broken (as in they're simply the best character in the game), then they should stay.

Was it by choice? Yes, yes it was. Is it ever not by choice? no.

The community of any community will draw a line, we drew it and he passed it. The line is always subjective.

Yeah people choose to play him, just like people chose to play Akuma.

What rules? Rules to nerf planking in general (it's not like Meta-Knight is the only character who can plank well)? Or the ban of his D.I.C.K., which is just excessive stalling, anyway?

General planking was aimed at him, notice how his has a lower limit than anyone else. Unless you got frame data and citation for everyone else to prove they are legit broken like it is for MK.

Some places adding a scrooge rule for him, LGLs just for him. It was made for him, then slapped on everyone else to make it look pretty.

IDC, would have been banned no matter who got it. Because it is a stall tactic.

Mob mentality always sucks. Banning something simply because the majority wants it gone with no other arguments presented is always wrong.

Not if what your looking for is an answer from the mob.

We're looking for what the community wants in this situation, not like it matters because the poll was the main thing with mob mentality. Let's face it, we're asking a question to people what they want to do with their game if a character hit a point people said was centralizing around him. Community said it was and though game was better off without him.

Just because MK wasn't Ivan Ooze, doesn't mean people can figure out if he crossed the acceptable line the community drew. It's no different for any community.

Also URC and the BBR were debating this for a while, it's not like they took the poll as their sole reason to do it.

 

[**Havok**]

BTW, just call me KASR or Havik. it's what I got by man. I might have the silliest the name, but I bring the hype.

Name match.

 

[Tommy_G]

He is credible.

Heck I agree with him on everything but one or two topics.



Was it by choice? Yes, yes it was. Is it ever not by choice? no.

The community of any community will draw a line, we drew it and he passed it. The line is always subjective.

Yeah people choose to play him, just like people chose to play Akuma.

Akuma was unbeatable. Free frame traps into guaranteed supers. MK is beatable, it's just difficult, like Eddie in GG. There's a difference.

General planking was aimed at him, notice how his has a lower limit than anyone else. Unless you got frame data and citation for everyone else to prove they are legit broken like it is for MK.

Some places adding a scrooge rule for him, LGLs just for him. It was made for him, then slapped on everyone else to make it look pretty.

IDC, would have been banned no matter who got it. Because it is a stall tactic.

There will be more people who do what MK did with other characters and it will completely shut certain characters down. G&W and Pit can ledge stall out characters like Fox, Falco, and Wolf like crazy. What are we going to do about that with MK gone? Still have a LGL? Real productive.

IDC is comparable to Sonic's B Homing Attack under the stage. It's bound to be banned and it's not because "it's Meta knight."

Not if what your looking for is an answer from the mob.

We're looking for what the community wants in this situation, not like it matters because the poll was the main thing with mob mentality. Let's face it, we're asking a question to people what they want to do with their game if a character hit a point people said was centralizing around him. Community said it was and though game was better off without him.

The community at a high level know MK isn't broken enough to be banned. He has been beaten time and time again. It's the people who go to tournaments and can't skillfully place who ***** and moan about the character. The people who made this decision host tournaments, they don't necessarily place well in them.

Just because MK wasn't Ivan Ooze, doesn't mean people can figure out if he crossed the acceptable line the community drew. It's no different for any community.

Also URC and the BBR were debating this for a while, it's not like they took the poll as their sole reason to do it.

I think if you want to ban MK at a tournament, go ahead, but if there are tournaments where MK isn't banned, they shouldn't be ignored because "they don't have the normal standard." The people behind the URC think they'd look like idiots if they count tournaments that don't ban MK while they ban him at their tournaments. It's like going to a high school club tournament that ban MK, Dedede, and IC because they "take the fun out of the game."

 

[rathy Aro]

wat u tryna say that i never practiced with mk? lol ive been playing mk for three years lol

When you first popped up in a tournament I had never heard of you and you were already ****** people left and right. I heard that ksizzle showed u the basics and u were just naturally beast at the game. And thats bs, no way you've been playing competitively for 3 years. I mean your account is from 2010. lol