Match Up Discussion: Snake ~

[Steel]

Can Steel or EL please play him wifi (even with lag)? I'm getting sick of this.

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Rather not waste my time >_>

Why is JITT getting so angry?
I want tips on how to beat Broken Range and speed.
I mean, I know you slice him around, but GETTING THAT HIT is what I need help with.

Probably because you aren't helping the Snake discussion at all.

You come in here cocky and ignorant because you can beat scrub Snakes and we're supposed to take that advice seriously? We didn't take it seriously because you were simply wrong.

And what do you mean "How do you hit him"? Hit him with your sword. Will need a less vague question to help you there.

 

[PCHU]

Well, in that battle, he mostly attempted to shieldgrab me.
It sucked, and with bombs crowding my way, I can't really think of a way to approach him without me getting hit in the process.
Recovery is simple, it's just not getting hit by him that troubles me.
Aerial attempts get me shieldgrabb'd.
I guess a good dash attack?
I don't know.
I just need to find a way to work around Snake's strengths.

 

[Steel]

A good dash attack? >_> Dash attack fails.

If you are getting shield grabbed by Snake then you are spacing your aerials poorly.

Don't be too aggressive vs. Snake. If you do nothing but jumping around spamming fairs you will eat an ftilt.

Spacing and playing smart is everything in this match up. Take advantage of dtilt. Use dash to dancing blade, it's hard to react against. Juggle him with u throw, utilt, u air, and if you can finish him with an up smash.

Sounds to me like you are just blindly rushing in.

 

[PCHU]

Not really.
Well, since it was my only match against a Snake like that, I can't say what I'm doing wrong.
I haven't been using as many fairs, and I can meteor.
So, dancing Blade?
Will shield breaker break your shield when it's fully charged?
Before you call me stupid, I'm asking because I did that against this one person, and it didn't break his.
I'm pretty sure my shield breaker was fully charged.

Is usmash predictable?
Not too many Marths boost smash their usmash.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

Well, in that battle, he mostly attempted to shieldgrab me.
It sucked, and with bombs crowding my way, I can't really think of a way to approach him without me getting hit in the process.
Recovery is simple, it's just not getting hit by him that troubles me.
Aerial attempts get me shieldgrabb'd.
I guess a good dash attack?
I don't know.
I just need to find a way to work around Snake's strengths.

Well the meaning of this thread is to discuss that, but your statements doesn't have any solid arguments behind them in order to evolve the discussion.

You are basically saying that bananas are oranges.
And you can counter them with lemons.

I do understand that you do want to help this thread, but you're inexperienced in that match. One match in Wi-Fi changed a lot of your thoughts. You do feel experienced with only that knowledge?

Please, we went off-topic too much and mostly due your posts. They aren't helping.
Would be better if you simply search for more information about this before stating something.
Sorry if this sounds arrogant, I don't meant to be that.
Don't reply me in this thread, if you want to reply me just PM or IM me.

I'm getting tired of senseless off-topic.
Don't reply him here too, otherwise we are going to be at the same and desert beach.

 

[Ulevo]

PCHU, so far you have failed to contribute one meaningful thing to this discussion, and have instead argued with fellow posters here and asked irrelevant questions. If you are now intrigued on how to beat Snake effectively just follow what it is the posters have to say. We have a lot of fairly smart people here, aside from Emblem Lord ( ), and you'll learn more by reading the material than slowing it down with babble.

I'm not discouraging you from contributing, provided you have something useful, but please stop the needless commentary.

 

[∫unk]

My head hurts more than playing against snake ><

Higher or lower controller port if you had the choice? Lower lets you beat his grab...

 

[VietGeek]

My head hurts more than playing against snake ><

Higher or lower controller port if you had the choice? Lower lets you beat his grab...

But higher allows you to grab him out of his little Grenade Shielding BS.

It's difficult to say. For all general purposes in this match I believe higher ports better suffice.

I assume you mean as P1, you can grab him, take damage from the attack should they go off at the same frame (don't quite recall if this is relevant to controller slot, correct me if I am incorrect), and to defeat a grab vs. grab situation, right?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ulevo, the Marth community has this on lock son.

Make the ROB thread. We don't need to wait a week.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

Ulevo, the Marth community has this on lock son.

Make the ROB thread. We don't need to wait a week.

I totally agree, this discussion seems pretty dead, sadly.
If anything happens, call the bump service.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Agreed, although I think Snake is Marth's hardest match-up, I have more trouble vs ROB than Snake, because while I know the Snake match-up in and out, I don't really know anything about the ROB one.


EDIT: I no longer think Snake's is Marth's hardest match-up.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

to beat snake just keep juggling him, when you approach him don't short hop rather full hop with a rising fair so that you can have the option to jump back out when needed, your best bet to beat him is to throw him off the stage and edgeguard, snake has too many options while he's grounded, also don't be afraid of grenades if he's holding them just shieldbreaker him cuz he most likely will shield.

 

[Steel]

some people in mbr wanted to rediscuss this, im just going to be bumping all the threads they thought necessary.

 

[TheRazaman]

I don't have a ton of experience against Snake, but i think its definitely Marth's 2nd worst matchup.

• Our best level, Battlefield, isn't a problem for Snake because of C4 thru the platforms.
• His Dair hammers your shield so you have to be extremely careful about shielding that if you're not at full. About the only good option here is to DS oos but, unless he's really high the knockback won't be much and, on most stages, he'll eat you alive while you're landing. Its also possible to PS in-between Snakes dair kicks, but its quite difficult to do. TDI + SDI towards the way he came seems best if you're taking the htis.
• His mortar slide is troublesome to deal with because there doesn't seem to be any way to effectively punish it when he uses it at medium range. The best option I know of is to shield and then SH forward before the mortar comes back down. This prevents me from getting hit but it also lets him off the hook. Most of the time if i shield and try to punish the mortar acts as a combo breaker either by hitting me or forcing me to shield/dodge and letting snake gain the advantage.
• Ftilt is really good and can kill stupidly early, plus its trip ability sets him up to start some shenanigans.
• Utilt is another solid kill move that he has (~110%). The hitbox on this thing is weird, I think its like our USmash in that it kind of pulls you towards him and into the ****.
• Snakes grab game is sick because of the incredible amount options he has out of it. Its basically one big mind-game. Trying a getup attack from Dthrow can get you Dair'd, oos grabbed. Fthrow/Bthrow can combo into his nades if he has them out, he can mortar slide you if you DI away, Ftilt if you DI towards him, or just use it to reset and force you to approach etc...
• Snakes ledge traps are also very very good. On BF he could have a C4 on the platform, drop a nade near the edge, send up a mortar at your roll-up range or nikita missile, or he could just bait you into a get-up attack and throw you back out (or into any of his other grab games).

Thats about all i got off the top of my head.

 

[indianunit]

snake>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>marth

ftilt eats everything
nair eats everything
nades own marth
marth might have an advantage against snake if he's in the air and thats only if the snake has no idea how to get back onto the ground.
i know wifi isn't a good way of playing but with the lag steadily decreasing recently (almost as if there wasn't any) it's still good to me. I've played some really good marths and have had very little to no problem with them.

 

[Steel]

lol

and who are these good m arths you speak of

10signatures
andagain

 

[illinialex24]

By mentioning wifi in your debate where Marth completely sucks and everything gets distorted, you just made your own post liable to be completely ignored and made an example out of. That in addition to the fact that you spoke like an utter idiot.

And, 10 signatures
For the 11th signature.
For 12 signatures

And **** this isn't working......

 

[TheRazaman]

snake>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>marth

ftilt eats everything
nair eats everything
nades own marth
marth might have an advantage against snake if he's in the air and thats only if the snake has no idea how to get back onto the ground.
i know wifi isn't a good way of playing but with the lag steadily decreasing recently (almost as if there wasn't any) it's still good to me. I've played some really good marths and have had very little to no problem with them.

Yes ftilt is beastly, but you still have to be smart with it. This isn't MK's Dsmash we're talking about here.
Your "really good" Marths must not know how to DI properly if Snakes "nair eats everything."
Nades on their own do not own Marth. Its their incorporation into Snakes ledge and grab game that makes them good.
Wifi is not a good measure for character matchups. Sheik and Ike are made of win on wifi.

Thanks for adding to this discussion

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

I donno. A lot of people say this matchup is absolutely horrible for Marth, but I can honestly say I disagree. You both have a lot of options, although snake may have a few more, that doesn't mean it's a hopeless matchup. Snake players, in my opinion, all have somewhat similar play styles. Keep in mind that they're going to toss grenades at you the entire match, and keep track of where the mines are. As long as you can dodge his grenades and dodge his mines and what not, you have to watch out for his Dthrow and tilts. Dthrow is amazing, and can follow up with another grab, obviously, or something like a Utilt if you don't DI. On the other hand, Marth still has good range. Well spaced Fairs and dancing blade are your friends, and counter as stated before is also something to keep in mind. It gets obvious after a while, but you shouldn't be using it to the point where they see it coming. This matchup is a tough one, but with smart moves and awareness you can get by it fairly easily if you can gimp him. I see this as 55:45 Snake.

 

[BacklashMarth]

I've recently noticed that snakes can avoid being juggled and its annoying the hell outta me -.- It sessms that the c4 and bair are enough but im sure there is a way around this. Also, snakes abuse mortar slides when marth attempts to sh at them. Sure i think marth has a shot when going against a snake of equal or greater skill but this is starting to look like more of an uphill battle to me. Probably because ive been facing campy @$$ snakes latey on wifi.

 

[Freezewish]

I've recently noticed that snakes can avoid being juggled and its annoying the hell outta me -.- It sessms that the c4 and bair are enough but im sure there is a way around this. Also, snakes abuse mortar slides when marth attempts to sh at them. Sure i think marth has a shot when going against a snake of equal or greater skill but this is starting to look like more of an uphill battle to me. Probably because ive been facing campy @$$ snakes latey on wifi.

Wavebouncing nades allows snake to avoid being juggled along with C4. Ftilt is overwhelming if the snake spaces them correctly. Motar slide has no priority so just time a jab or dtilt to interrupt it.

Also , Snake is a god on wifi and Marth is at even more of a disadvantage then he already is, so I wouldnt base my experience in this matchup from wifi matches.

If the ratio is changed, I'd say 65:35 at the most. (assuming the snake is playing extremely gay)

 

[BacklashMarth]

Yea i know about the "wifi isnt legit thing". I have faced a few snakes offline as well and the same thing is an issue. I havent noticed the wavebouncing, just the C4 and bair.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

spaced ftilts.. LMFAO

 

[Freezewish]

spaced ftilts.. LMFAO

<_<

10neohasthegayestsnakeontheplanet

 

[Panix]

Nades do good against marth because he can't camp snake back.

snake tilts beat out most of marths ground approach.

Marths forward B is very scary, works really well against snake.

Marths air superiority makes him yet another character that makes snakes try their hardest to stay out of the air.

Marth will be very aggressive during this encounter, and snake will be very defensive.

The grab game of marth is a bit more limited then snakes.

marth enjoy's breaking shields, and snake loves to shield.

marth should watch out for most of snakes Tech chase games (Oos grab, Dair, ftilt, ftilt>regrab)

I (as a snake main) really use my nades/mines/c4 during this match-up, since marth dosn't have a 100% reliable way of taking out mines, it actually makes them usefull (talking about projectials like IC icebergs,lucarios AS, ect) The nades make this match in snake's favor IMO. such hard range game is to good.

IDK, If im wrong about something call me out on it, i'll either try to explain it or just shutup and listen =)

 

[Xisin]

Snake is def. not 65:35 :/ F-tilts are easy to punish when shielded and Marth's D-tilt can be troublesome with snake, if you keep launching the snake into the air you will eventually catch him in a juggle trap. Also this is one of the few matches where i activly go for spikes... since snake is an easy spike out of his cipher, instead of going for a grab if i know the C4 is inactive i will ALWAYS spike him if hes dumb enough to use it low.

Marth can deal with planted mines by either rolling over them or jumping onto them with a counter, both work. Also Up smash vs a falling snake is too good, mix them with double jump u-air, short hop u-air. full jump u air and even bair. getting him in the air is easy enough, DB up, up throw, up smash, as well as knocking him off the stage since it forces him to recover high. its 55:45 or 60:40, I've played campy patient snakes before and its not as annoying as i thought it would be. Snake's Nair? loldolphinslash or you can DI out of it. dair? shouldnt be hitting you unless he catches you off guard, Snakes bair? get under it and up smash. Fair >_>

Nades can be troublesome, but only if the snake knows how to stage control with them well, glide tossing them sucks since they can be stripped from your hands. His u-tilt kos marth at around 100%, and marth should ko snake at around 130ish% save for crazy random tippers.

 

[Odigo]

Juggle traps win, and keeping snake in a disadvantage state is key in this matchup. C4 can be used to stop a Marth from juggling, but if the Marth is conscious and plays smart it shouldn't be that big of a problem while juggling (remember that juggling doesn't mean staying directly beneath them).
DB blue version, utilt, and uair can cause Snake some serious problems. I abuse DB.

I find nades to be much more annoying in any situation than C4 because they come out in one frame so it's very easy to halt Marth's advance and return the state to neutral. Once in that state, Snake can start putting massive amounts of pressure with nades and mortar sliding.

Dtilt does well here too, it outspaces Snake's jab and ftilt IIRC.

I disagree on the post about Battlefield, I still feel this is one of the best areas IF you're smart about it. The platforms are a godsend for Marth unless he either A) plays dumb and stays on them while he gets mortarslid to hell, or B) plays dumb and gives control to Snake.

It's important to know when utilt and ftilt can kill you and being able to read when your opponent is setting up for an utilt is very important to surviving; instead of going for fairs and risk misspacing and getting utilted, punish anything Snake does and use DB blue to juggle some more.

It's also important be SMART about getting grabbed. Snake's dthrow has the best tech chase in the game and if the Marth is dumb about it he could get tilted, mortar slid, or fsmashed.

Nikita missiles are only used for some setups, if ever. You can easily swat them away but watch out for missile canceling shenanigans. Once again, play smart and don't roll directly into a dropped missile or mine.

My mindset in this matchup is Snake can't jab or tilt if he's in the air so that's where I want to keep him. I always try to keep Snake in the air or recovering (but isn't that every matchup?)

Most Snakes won't try to recover low unless they're going to sweetspot the edge, but if you see him cyphering close to the edge make sure to capitalize on this situation and go for the grab gimp.

I don't feel like this match up is strongly in anyones favor; a smart Marth could keep it AROUND even or at a slight disadvantage. It's just important to make sure you know when Snake pulls out nades or uses C4 and be conscious of your surroundings.

 

[ScAtt77]

oh ya just a little tid-bit of information: You don't want to try to juggle too much because of 'nades. He can blow you and himself up with it.

1 frame 'nades FTW :D

 

[BarDulL]

60:40, Marth wins.

 

[Shaya]

60:40, Marth wins.

I agree with this post.

 

[∫unk]

60:40, Marth's with significant Snake experience against multiple top Snakes (ex. BarDulL) win against 99% of Snakes.

Fixe d.

 

[Shaya]

Go a 'higher player slot' than Snake in nearly all situations if possible. (i.e. go player 4, try to be sneaky about it too).

Be relentless, don't fall for the "but it gives Marth an advantage", NO, IT DOES NOT. IT JUST REMOVES THE ENERMOUS ADVANTAGE SNAKE HAS.

The first reply to this thread, and I'm bringing it back up again.

The Snake match up is almost worthy of splitting into two categories, Port Disadvantage and Port Advantage

Port Advantage

With the port advantage, Marth can successfully use his great grab game to fully and relentlessly attack Snake once he gets past the initial wall of camping, most often giving him the ability to cover all damage and more from what Snake can accomplish on Marth from his above strategy.

Snake cannot rely on shield camping with nades (as much), as a large part of Snake's damage racking comes from his grabs; where if a grenade is out, leave's Marth an easy escape to avoid continual damage.

I would say in this situation, the match up is even.

Port Disadvantage

Port Disadvantage for yourself changes this match up. For those who don't know what this actually entails:

To have port advantage you have to have a higher player port. As in your opponent is 2, you go 3. Port Four is always best as they can't just pick port 5.

It all comes down to the grab. Marth has an excellent grab game, especially on a heavy weight like Snake. Snake's grenades in the 'disadvantaged match up' counter Marth's shield pressure (fairs/dtilts/etc) quite well due to the over excessive shielding that Snake can do whilst being completely safe from grabs.

So why can't Marth grab? Being without the super armour of grabs, whenever Marth is able to get a grab on Snake, Marth cannot usually follow up after a throw as Snake's grenades will most likely explode in your face (either before you throw or during the cool down after the throw), resetting the situation with you gaining more damage, whilst Snake, considering his weight, ends up better off.

And as Snake gets the super armour, if he grabs you, he can let explosions go off first before doing a down throw, leading to a tech chase that can rack up excessive amounts of damage.

Snake's mortar/dash attack covers Marth's ability to cross over/pressure with his aerials considerably, and the best way for Marth to punish the mortar is through a dtilt or grab [with port advantage], as most of Marth's other moves are too laggy in the cool down to avoid the mortar falling on your head anyway.

A Marth without port advantage has all his approaches and options countered by a simple process by a Snake player. With the only salvation being that if Marth gets an early percent/early stock he can camp in return (with much less effectiveness than that of Meta Knight or just about anyone...).

 

[ChibixD]

Nice Post Shaya
I will start using port 4 right now =p

 

[Shaya]

It's pretty old information.

Port 4 is definitely preferred in the match up, but it's not SO detrimental.

All those things I've said are still reasonably valid, but are exaggerated in how much they own us. `-`

Editted the post to be a bit more realistic of what's happening "now".

 

[6Mizu]

Only thing that probably hasn't been said is abuse the tip of Marth's sword.


Why is the 4th port preffered in this MU?????????????

 

[Earth_Swords_Man_009]

One thing I find very useful when fighting Snakes (and this is going to sound stupid at first, but it'll clear up, just read) is to ignore their explosives.

Snake is slow, especially compared to Marth, and he likes a slow paced match. His use of C4 and Grenades help this a lot. When Snake puts a C4 in between you and him, he's NOT actually expecting you to approach. This being said, approaching because the BEST thing to do. Even the best of Snakes I've fought (and yes, I do go to tournaments), are late with the C4 when I run right over them. It's a slap in the face to the Snake player when you DON'T act afraid of getting blown up. You break the mind game many Snakes rely on when they try to set the temp through explosives. I run through grenades, and counter them as well, since they are rather predictable explosives.

Dolphin Slashing through Snake's Boost Smash causes major LOLs. Also, unlike Counter, you can't be hit in the first 4 frames. Against a Snake at higher percents, this finishes.

I read this somewhere, and it's worth repeating.

Save your Fsmash and don't stale it. You'll need it to kill Snake.

Honestly, that's pretty much the same mindset I have against Snake. We don't have many out in the Midwest but I when I do fight one, they are pretty good. But as you said, ignore explosives makes the match a bit better. We CANT totally forget about them but I understand what you are pointing towards.

Nice post fo sho.

 

[Albert.]

Only thing that probably hasn't been said is abuse the tip of Marth's sword.
[/SIZE]

-_- WOW. .. . . . . LOL

Why is the 4th port preffered in this MU?????????????

Shaya's very informative post is like RIGHT THERE. It should be on the latest page or 2nd to latest.

Maybe you're trolling.

I hope so.

 

[Ayen]

So, if i play Snake...

P1 Snake - P2 Marth
P2 Snake - P3 Marth
P3 Snake - P4 Marth
All the other ports Snake - P4 Marth

Advantage?

 

[Tophes]

So, if i play Snake...

P1 Snake - P2 Marth
P2 Snake - P3 Marth
P3 Snake - P4 Marth
All the other ports Snake - P4 Marth

Advantage?

Pretty much, yes. Any port lower than what Snake chooses will be better against Marth.

P1 Snake --> P2, P3, P4 Marth
P2 Snake --> P3, P4 Marth
.
.
.

 

[Uffe]

60:40, Marth wins.

Really? I thought it was the other way around to be honest. I've fought my friends Snake a number of times with Marth and won quite a lot myself, making me wonder if the match up wasn't really in Snake's favor at all. But I'm not really sure I can say a lot about his Snake, as mean as that might sound. Than again, I don't ever really use my Marth against other people than him, so who really knows?