The Brown Scourge
Smash Journeyman
Prolly around even i say. Strongs tilts and weight vs combo ability and aerial prowess
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Match Up Discussion: Snake ~
- Thread starter Ulevo
- Start date
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
i thought you loved marth dittos
a man can love more than one thing soren
also i've found out that shieldbreaker ***** snakes that like to shield when you approach them in the air, esp. if they drop a grenade, scares the **** out of them
broke a shield like that in tourney.... but then his nade blew him up at 150% so i didn't get the kill
fffffffff
also i've found out that shieldbreaker ***** snakes that like to shield when you approach them in the air, esp. if they drop a grenade, scares the **** out of them
broke a shield like that in tourney.... but then his nade blew him up at 150% so i didn't get the kill
fffffffff
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
shield braker needs to be used with caution so you don't eat a ftilt or utilt
but yeah it does **** snake especially after he shields to protect himself from his nades
my other 2 cents are that double pivot grab thing we have is a safer way to grab in this match up
but yeah it does **** snake especially after he shields to protect himself from his nades
my other 2 cents are that double pivot grab thing we have is a safer way to grab in this match up
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
to be honest i would make them approuch if i had a huge lead since snake can't approuch marth don't try to heavily camp them but just play smart snake has no safe way to approuch marth and gets off stage very quickly if he is not careful
Also using SB and getting tilted or what not is a good way for snake to turn the tables on you, snake has no approuch on marth that won't be fair'd or other wise heavily punished
Also using SB and getting tilted or what not is a good way for snake to turn the tables on you, snake has no approuch on marth that won't be fair'd or other wise heavily punished
Mr-R
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2008
- Messages
- 2,544
yeah marth dittos, snake, falco and metaknight ;D
also juggles> to platform cancel ***** snake
Shieldbreaker can effectively combo on snakes shield if a nade explodes on him at around the same time.
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
^ this is why i pretty much only use SB on snake
smasher01
Smash Ace
yo some one plz help me out with this MU.
seems like when i space a f-air on snakes shield he power shields is and f-tilts me in the face wtf.
how do you avoid his f-tilt?
seems like when i space a f-air on snakes shield he power shields is and f-tilts me in the face wtf.
how do you avoid his f-tilt?
Fast fall the fair.
OR full hop the fair if you are rising.
If you full hop rising fair he cant punish it before you are above him and retreating awayyyyy~
If you fast fall fair he cant punish you before you get a shield up.
A snake prone to power shielding your fairs also only requires a MINOR stall before you actually throw out the aerial.
3 frames difference wait (i.e. mixing up your usage tendancies to confuse players predictions) means he doesnt power shield it at all.
OR full hop the fair if you are rising.
If you full hop rising fair he cant punish it before you are above him and retreating awayyyyy~
If you fast fall fair he cant punish you before you get a shield up.
A snake prone to power shielding your fairs also only requires a MINOR stall before you actually throw out the aerial.
3 frames difference wait (i.e. mixing up your usage tendancies to confuse players predictions) means he doesnt power shield it at all.
smasher01
Smash Ace
cant snake dash attack you if he knows you will f-air?
if they do that i can just walk or run up to him and its a free dancing blade right?
if they do that i can just walk or run up to him and its a free dancing blade right?
Saki-
Reset Project
that's where the full hop comes in
If you avoid the dash attack, I'd go with a DB, or dtilt. Just make sure it's outside of the ftilt range.
If you avoid the dash attack, I'd go with a DB, or dtilt. Just make sure it's outside of the ftilt range.
smasher01
Smash Ace
cool thanks im just picking up marth so this MU is new to me.
any more basic stuff that will really help me out in that match up.
any more basic stuff that will really help me out in that match up.
it is no way in snakes advantage especially 60:40 this matchup is in marths favour imo , u look at all the good marths and they all give the good snakes real real trouble even tho the marths wil do worse vs the better players than the snake (not mentioning names) ,
Marth can just double jump wait for an opening and come down with a f air which leads to multiple hits and especially if u link it to getting snake up in the air u can make it hard work for the snake to get down , snake is amazing on the ground? sure but the only thing that will out range the marth is the 2nd hit of f tilt and even then marth can come from above using the double jump f air as i mentioned , up tilt wil solve that but yet again u cant win a match by up tilt usage only ..?
What if snake gets a downthrow thats alot of % on marth if you tech chase perfectly? yea ur right but with that f air its hard to get a grab on marth ul only get one if u punish a marths landing with a grab or if the marth spaces badly and even then if ur not FRAME perfect tech cahsing a marth can up b and catch u by suprise snake gets most of his % from down throw its important to him and i feel like marth takes his d throw game away from him.
im in a rush typing this XD but i can explain more if ppl dont agree but having it 60:40 in snakes favour is not being realistic , imo 50:50 or if anything in marths favour
Marth can just double jump wait for an opening and come down with a f air which leads to multiple hits and especially if u link it to getting snake up in the air u can make it hard work for the snake to get down , snake is amazing on the ground? sure but the only thing that will out range the marth is the 2nd hit of f tilt and even then marth can come from above using the double jump f air as i mentioned , up tilt wil solve that but yet again u cant win a match by up tilt usage only ..?
What if snake gets a downthrow thats alot of % on marth if you tech chase perfectly? yea ur right but with that f air its hard to get a grab on marth ul only get one if u punish a marths landing with a grab or if the marth spaces badly and even then if ur not FRAME perfect tech cahsing a marth can up b and catch u by suprise snake gets most of his % from down throw its important to him and i feel like marth takes his d throw game away from him.
im in a rush typing this XD but i can explain more if ppl dont agree but having it 60:40 in snakes favour is not being realistic , imo 50:50 or if anything in marths favour
Neon X
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2009
- Messages
- 164
sir spot Dodging is not the best option against Snake. Even if you spot dodge the first hit of Ftilt the next hits will get you. Same for his Jab. Dancing Blade ***** Snake. Also watching out for Snake's Shielding patterns in Grenade drops is good. You can break his Shield before the grenade goes out. Nair is pretty good too in this fight and also pivot grabbing him out of Cypher works like a charm.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Dancing Blade is not really overwhelming against Snake.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
DB1 is definitely not the way to go against Snake.
Duskshadow
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2009
- Messages
- 118
Dancing Blades is a nice option after one has just forward thrown a Snake. I believe it is a reliable way of getting Snake up to about 18-25% (assuming one has forward thrown the snake at 0-5% if I am not mistaken).
Lord Chair
Smash Master
DB1 means doing just the first hit of DB, which is inviable against Snake due to mechanics. Full Dancing Blades are unlikely to happen due to the way the matchup works.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
Serious punishing has to occur in order to get in Dbs, but then again you will most likely grab lol.
PEACE7
Smash Champion
Does the player slot matter?
xxmoosexx
Smash Lord
YES. IF AN EXPLOSION IS COMING DOWN ON YOU AND YOU ARE HOLDING SNAKE, (or vice versa), WHO DO YOU WANT TO FLY OFF INTO THE DISTANCE?
I dont know how to stress this more lol.
BTW, Is there a way to get the higher controller port over wifi?
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Because wifi is serious business?
xxmoosexx
Smash Lord
Yus. Yus it is.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
I figured you'd reason I meant:
- DB1 > followup is not quite good against Snake because of his weight and falling speed
- DB against Snake isn't terribly good in general.
- DB1 > followup is not quite good against Snake because of his weight and falling speed
- DB against Snake isn't terribly good in general.
I disagree...
dancing blade is amazing against snake.
well it's amazing against everyone.
I suppose I use grabs + aerials more than db in the match up though, but saying it isn't good is silly.
dancing blade is amazing against snake.
well it's amazing against everyone.
I suppose I use grabs + aerials more than db in the match up though, but saying it isn't good is silly.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Hence, it isn't terribly good.
More often than not, you'll want to grab (as you say).
More often than not, you'll want to grab (as you say).
Lord Chair
Smash Master
While full DB is definitely viable, I would personally advise against DB1 > followup.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
DB1 tricks should generally be the mixup and not the standard.
Take the guaranteed damage when it's given to you. Especially in this matchup when you can either start a juggle or force him off stage which are your two best positions against Snake.
Take the guaranteed damage when it's given to you. Especially in this matchup when you can either start a juggle or force him off stage which are your two best positions against Snake.
xxmoosexx
Smash Lord
Im all most positive that there was some setup with up version DB at low percents. I think the thread said you would easily get another DB up version and juggle. Something about getting another garunteed Full DB....but im not sure.
-Ran
Smash Master
If you get Snake on the edge, there's really nothing he can do aside from falling off the stage and C4'ing himself to get way from the situation. Everything that Snake does off of a ledge is able is able to countered [not the move =p] and knock him back onto ledge grab range.
- Get up Attack = Shield + F-Throw, Dolphin slash, falling away Fair.
- Get up = F-throw, Falling away aerial, dancing blade, down tilt.
- Roll on stage = Falling away aerial, down-throw
- Jump up = Falling away aerial.
Snake has no viable aerial to get onto the edge as long as you read properly.
- Get up Attack = Shield + F-Throw, Dolphin slash, falling away Fair.
- Get up = F-throw, Falling away aerial, dancing blade, down tilt.
- Roll on stage = Falling away aerial, down-throw
- Jump up = Falling away aerial.
Snake has no viable aerial to get onto the edge as long as you read properly.
Almo
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2007
- Messages
- 812
I'm not sure how many people know this, if it's relevant or not, but i was told a few days ago by Fatal that C4 lasts 54 seconds before it explodes automatically.
It's not THAT game changing but i think it's a nice tidbit of information and could really help with port advantage if you lead him into it with a grab. The C4 has much more knockback than grenades so the automatic explosion could be played in our favor, but it's a highly unlikely situation.
I have played Fatal and Bizkit multiple times, as well as other mid-level snakes from my region, and i really don't think he is in one of Marth's worst 3 match-ups. I hear a lot of speak about ROB being a pain (unfortunately i lack overall tournament experience to have any input on how hard ROB is), and MK and Dedede seem far worse than Snake. Snake is doable, if you're having trouble i would definitely recommend grabbing more in this matchup. It's been mentioned a few times, but grabs pretty much shut down all of snake's landing options. A well spaced pivot grab beats landing Bair, landing Nair, grenades obviously, and airdodges obviously. Pivot grabs work really well on snake's that recover high, which should be almost always, and the only thing that beats it are B reversals, which can be predicted or reacted upon, and C4 tricks.
I'm not sure how many people encounter it but I know Fatal likes to use this trick. When you hit snake in the air with an upsmash or an up air or up tilt, he will lay the C4 and then double jump, then explode the C4. If you try to react and think he will land you just eat the explosion. But most snakes do this that i've played. What he does differently is you dodge the C4 explosion, but then he lays another and explodes it right after. The point of this is you assume since he has no jumps left you can punish and run straight into the second C4. It's really hard to get around, but the best option is to predict it and try and hit him after he lays the C4 but before he explodes it. This way he can't use more C4 in the air, but is still in that same bad position. Either that, or don't chase him at all. The second C4 creates a wall between you and him, and most of the time he is the one escaping, and puts him near the ledge, which is still favorable to you.
It was mentioned in another thread (i forget who, but credit goes to them), the down variation of the 3rd hit of dancing blade stabs at their feet and then steps REALLY far back so you're out of grab range. If you find yourself attacking their shield too much with dancing blade and getting shield grabbed too much, this could be a nice mix-up to avoid the grab. I haven't tested this much, so i'm not entirely sure how well it would work, if at all.
Pay attention to your airdodge habits, snakes feed off of this. If you find yourself airdodging into the ground too much, they will catch on and eventually punish you every time for it.
I'm not really a knowledgeable player or that great in general, but I really enjoy the match-up and have played good snakes so i figured i would post something. But take this with a grain of salt, i suppose.
It's not THAT game changing but i think it's a nice tidbit of information and could really help with port advantage if you lead him into it with a grab. The C4 has much more knockback than grenades so the automatic explosion could be played in our favor, but it's a highly unlikely situation.
I have played Fatal and Bizkit multiple times, as well as other mid-level snakes from my region, and i really don't think he is in one of Marth's worst 3 match-ups. I hear a lot of speak about ROB being a pain (unfortunately i lack overall tournament experience to have any input on how hard ROB is), and MK and Dedede seem far worse than Snake. Snake is doable, if you're having trouble i would definitely recommend grabbing more in this matchup. It's been mentioned a few times, but grabs pretty much shut down all of snake's landing options. A well spaced pivot grab beats landing Bair, landing Nair, grenades obviously, and airdodges obviously. Pivot grabs work really well on snake's that recover high, which should be almost always, and the only thing that beats it are B reversals, which can be predicted or reacted upon, and C4 tricks.
I'm not sure how many people encounter it but I know Fatal likes to use this trick. When you hit snake in the air with an upsmash or an up air or up tilt, he will lay the C4 and then double jump, then explode the C4. If you try to react and think he will land you just eat the explosion. But most snakes do this that i've played. What he does differently is you dodge the C4 explosion, but then he lays another and explodes it right after. The point of this is you assume since he has no jumps left you can punish and run straight into the second C4. It's really hard to get around, but the best option is to predict it and try and hit him after he lays the C4 but before he explodes it. This way he can't use more C4 in the air, but is still in that same bad position. Either that, or don't chase him at all. The second C4 creates a wall between you and him, and most of the time he is the one escaping, and puts him near the ledge, which is still favorable to you.
It was mentioned in another thread (i forget who, but credit goes to them), the down variation of the 3rd hit of dancing blade stabs at their feet and then steps REALLY far back so you're out of grab range. If you find yourself attacking their shield too much with dancing blade and getting shield grabbed too much, this could be a nice mix-up to avoid the grab. I haven't tested this much, so i'm not entirely sure how well it would work, if at all.
Pay attention to your airdodge habits, snakes feed off of this. If you find yourself airdodging into the ground too much, they will catch on and eventually punish you every time for it.
I'm not really a knowledgeable player or that great in general, but I really enjoy the match-up and have played good snakes so i figured i would post something. But take this with a grain of salt, i suppose.
So Fatal
Smash Master
I was just guessing Almo lol >.<