Match-Up Discussion ~ Final Week Ganon/Falcon/Link >__>

[BleachigoZX]

Ganon has an amazing ledge game that'll catch some Falco's off guard.

He can only plank when he is ahead so no worries there.

 

[Teran]

Ganon should barely be able to move, no chance of him trying to stall.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Ganondorf can plank amazingly. I can't wait till the Ganon boards discover how and move Ganon out of "Worst"

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Ganondorf can plank amazingly. I can't wait till the Ganon boards discover how and move Ganon out of "Worst"

They recently rediscovered the uair on the ledge, which basicly makes him unable to be hit.

 

[Darky-Sama]

The Falcon Boards are now discussing Falco.
Feel free to help us with the match-up.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=250458

 

[Berserker.]

Why are you guys discussing Link/Ganon/Falcon? Isn't it like all Falco's favor?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Don't think it was ever mentioned to you all, the olimar boards have been discussing you all. It'd be great if you could help out :D
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=253061

 

[Conspiricy]

Just a note on the Ganon matchup, the more experienced members can and will chainchoke falco to 90%, then salmonsmash fsmash

Tipman can knock falco out of illusion, usually to his death.

A sweetspotted fair will probably cause early kills to falco.

A Ganon can SDI a CG to spike and uair you, possibly leading to a stagespike.

I think ftilt, dtilt, fsmash, bair, dair, usmash, dsmash, sweettspotted fair and jab can knock you out of illusion when tme well, but i'm not sure.

Be careful when gimping Ganon, because uair is EVIL.

but then again, your bair could prevent any gerudo action from happening, and Ganon has to predict dairs to counter them with usmash or SHuair.

I'd say the matchup is 15:85 because of Ganon's ability to kill you in 7 moves, however, it varies on the level.

Norfair helps to prevent laser spam and gimps while giving ganon easy kills and actual useage of utilt.

Brinstar forces you to go in the air above ganon, which allows him to utilise his amazing uair, also the ledges here can mess up phantasm.

pirate ship...no gimp for you.

the best ganon's gonna get is probably 20:80, but it's probably only on norfair.

[+[_]::] Sykkamorre.

 

[Shade26]

I think the Ganon vs Falco match-up is 15:85
Although some of Ganon's moves are good to use against Falco: Jab, nair, bair, fair(if somewhere with a platform), dair(when charging Fire Bird or using a phantasm ;_; ), down special(when charging Fire Bird ;_; ), side special, uair and the combo(I need to test it on someone I've only used it on CPUs so far): Flamechoke>dtilt>grab>dthrow>usmash.
Falco has: nair, bair, chaingrab/deathgrab, phantasm, uair, utilt, Lasers(SHDL), DACUS, usmash, SHL>fsmash, dair, dtilt, ftilt(its kind of good to keep Ganon away), Jab(this basically cancels all of Ganon's moves, which is quite sad).
I'll look into this match-up more tomorrow though.

 

[Alphicans]

That's cool just list the characters moveset.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Ganondorf can plank amazingly. I can't wait till the Ganon boards discover how and move Ganon out of "Worst"

Even though this is a month old post reply, I cannot help but state otherwise.

Ganon's planking method is actually rather difficult to perform consistently. It requires near perfect execution to work. Fall -> Rising Uair -> SideB for the really good planking method. If you are a just a few frames late, sideb will miss and will cause you to die. So it is a rather high risk, low reward system.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Execution should not be a topic of discussion in the metagame.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Execution should not be a topic of discussion in the metagame.

It sort of does have an area of consideration. Execution plays a rather large part in it. If execution is not a topic of discussion in the metagame, then we should be considering what to do when your opponent powershields every single attack you have. But the fact of the matter is that no one can powershield every single attack in the game. Therefore, we do not consider it with discussion.

There are things in Brawl that are rather difficult to perform. Look at the whole idea of the single naner lock diddy has. Shouldn't that make him practically impossible to beat if he pulls it off on you? No, it is because it is so difficult to pull off. The same applys with ICs. THe execution factor of getting a grab is hard to do depending upon the person.

Ganon's planking is not really any different. As I mentioned before, it is a high risk, low reward kind of a thing. And to plank for 8 minutes in this method for a whole match is certainly cause for consideration that execution is difficult.

 

[Denzi]

Pulling off the planking with Ganon is more comparable to Cging with IC's than to them getting the grab. One is dependant on the opponent, one isn't. The planking doesn't depend entirely on your opponent's actions.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Pulling off the planking with Ganon is more comparable to Cging with IC's than to them getting the grab. One is dependant on the opponent, one isn't. The planking doesn't depend entirely on your opponent's actions.

True. But, I'm using it as another example to show that execution plays a factor in things. Even though the ICs do have the 0%-death on everyone is has two faults. The ability to mess up during the long CG, and having to get a grab in the first place. It is because of this that we do not assume that ICs are 100-0 against everyone.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Final Verdict

Ganon 10:90 Falco
Link 20:80 Falco
Falcon 30:70 Falco.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Whos up for rediscussion King Dedede?

 

[Denzi]

Whos up for rediscussion King Dedede?

Ugh, I need help with this one. I'd say get the D3s in here, but last time they just said 'ugh lasers you guys win" and didn't help much. I'll post a link to this thread in their boards if you guys want me to though.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I copypasted my responses to clowui's thread from the Bakery, I think this covers alot of the matchup, if I missed something let me know and I'll try my best to answer.

you guys are smoking something serious

ddd vs falco is 6:4 falco maybe 7:3

if you do silents on his shield mix up with double laser and abuse your ******* good roll you win

If DDD knows how to powershield he can approach you, and he can running powershield grab you from a SHDL/SHL from a pretty far distance, you will get grabbed if you let him get to close, and if you think rolling will stop him realize that he can turnaround grab you after a powershield.

I say SHL/SHDL to jab combo works well as long as hes not too close to you, but keep in mind that he can powershield grab your 1st or 2nd jab, or even take the damage but still grab you with grab armor.
Basically just mix up your camping, if hes far away enough just shoot off grounded lasers.

phantasm to escape too

Phantasm is not that safe, if he expects it, he can uptilt you since utilt has so much range. If hes sheilding he can bair oos you. Phantasm while your close to him? he can grab you during the startup lag, or ftilt, as his ftilt will beat basically everything you can do, unless he uses it too late. Another thing DDD can do while shielding and you phantasm is roll backwards, his invincinbility frames will cover the hitbox of the phantasm and he will be close enough to you to punish the ending lag.

tl;dr DDD has alot of options to punish phantasm, mix in phantasm cancels and phatasm wisely.


jab when you're up close, if you do triple jab it's an auto reset to neutral he doesn't have any options to beat it quickly

Like I said before he can take the damage from the 1st or 2nd jab and grab you before you get the jab combo, or he can stay outside the range of the jab combo and ftilt/dtilt you.


when he's edgeguarding you mix up lengths of phantasm and make sure you're not recovering stupidly

You have 1 frame to phantasm cancel, I would not bet my recovery on something you need to be frame perfect with. Firebird is useful if hes trying to punish a phantasm, but if hes close to the ledge he can edgehog/edgeguard.

So if hes farther away from the ledge, phantasm to the ledge or firebird onto the ledge (use firebird above the ledge is better than below).

If hes close to the ledge, wait until the last moment to phantasm so he thinks your going for the ledge and edgehogs, then phantasm back on the stage. Or the safer choice is get close to him and phantasm higher than normal, this way he will have less time to react and hes too far away from where you will land to punish.

don't get greedy for grabs against him

I would say grab is the best move against DDD, because DDD will go for shield grabs so much that you will grab his shield more often than youd think. If you get him at low percentage go for the chainspike, then he has 2 options:

upb immediately, then you can try to respike him,or if u know hes trying to grab the ledge grab it 1st, or punish him on landing if hes trying to land on stage while abusing his superarmor and hitbox.

if he try to grab the ledge with his jumps, if so then go for the footstool, cuz if he upairs you can smash di and recover with your 2nd jump, and hes forced to use upb.


be patient about killing + damage

indeed, I've seen falcos lose a whole stock trying to kill a DDD with upsmash/boost smash, i think going for an upsmash kill is the worst thing to do, as he will grab you from it every time. It is IMPOSSIBLE to kill DDD when he's on the ground, so get him in the air. Generally DDD will shield and give you the grab at killing percents, so the best thing to do is to grab him and throw him offstage if you can, if not then throw him up and try to kill with uair/bair. Dthrow is also useful as you can get f-smash/boost smash if he di towards/away and airdodges immediately, but if he jumps or airdodge wisely he will avoid kill moves.

tl;dr at kill percentage go for the grab and then try to kill him when hes in the air.

also if you're getting juggled use different timings w/ airdodging and fastfalling to throw him off, occasionally move away etc.

DDD ***** at juggling because of his huge range on his tilts/grab, add in the fact that Falco has a ****ty horizontal aerial movement means that he can make it a ***** to land against.

His bair lasts longer than your airdodge, and since he falls fast his ff bair beats your ff airdodge. But the big part is trying to land, if you try to land close to him with airdodge/aerials, he will sheild grab you, if you try to land behind him he will uptilt you, you can airdodge thru it if you airdodge at the right time and move enough to avoid his hitbox when you land, which is really hard to do. And uptilt has invincibility frames so dont try to bair/dair, you will lose. Best thing to do when DDD is standing under you is to phantasm away, preferably onto a platform.

CAMP THE **** OUT OF HIM, he can't actually beat you when that happens. he'll approach or try to approach at least but then you just **** him hard because he can't beat you at that range since you're reacting to him

He can powershield the lasers and approach you, eventurally you will run out of retreating move and then you will have to get behind him with phantasm/roll/run past him/take the air, or fight him. He has answers to all of them, and if he predicts right be prepared to take a ton of damage from his throws and edgeguard/juggling. Camp is the right answer, just make sure you use all your options, both defensive options and offensive options. NEVER get predictable.

ddd...too easy

Disagree, this matchup is in Falco's favor, but you have to try just as hard to win as he does. I would put it at 55:45, because DDD can live for a long time against Falco, and he can rack up the damage very quickly and kill early. We def have the tools to beat him, but we need to play really smart, if a DDD predicts us better than we can predict him then he's most likely going to win.

Response in red, my playing partner plays DDD so I have alot to say about this matchup.

 

[DEHF]

G&W should be switched to 60-40 falco

ICs should be 40-60 (possibly 35-65)

marth should 50-50 (45-55 at the most)

pikachu should be (70-30)

and DDD falco should be 70-30 (or 65-35 at least)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

G&W should be switched to 60-40 falco

ICs should be 40-60 (possibly 35-65)

marth should 50-50 (45-55 at the most)

pikachu should be (70-30)

and DDD falco should be 70-30 (or 65-35 at least)

Everything is waht the old days said. Except G&W now Falco's huge favor That did a complete 180. 60-40 G&W to 60-40 Falco lol

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

G&W should be switched to 60-40 falco

ICs should be 40-60 (possibly 35-65)

marth should 50-50 (45-55 at the most)

pikachu should be (70-30)

and DDD falco should be 70-30 (or 65-35 at least)

I disagree with GaW, he has an advantage imo.

Marth is 55-45 for sure, maybe 60-40 but i doubt it

Pika cant say

DDD-falco I agree, 70-30 is hard counter imo.

 

[DEHF]

falco has the advantage on G&W since falco can destroy his ground game with jab and ftilts making G&W have to resort to playing in the air which makes it even easier since he has a very predictable air game. whenever G&W recovers falco can get a free dair on him by grabbing the edge so G&W has to recover above him then doing a jumping dair which can lead to another attack if they don't tech it.

His bair will do him more bad than good in the match up if falco knows how to SDI out of it which can leave to a free aerial f smash or grab depending on how you SDI the bair. If falco shields the bair falco can usmash out of shield inbetween before G&W to land on the ground and land the last hit.

G&W gets destroyed by double jab since the only thing he can do to stop it is buffer shield

I think UTD Zac thinks the match up is 60-40 falco as well and might know something that I'm missing

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In a nutshell: G&W is way too bad a character to beat a character as good as Falco.

Edit: Falco vs Diddy is 5/5 and Falco beats ROB

 

[J4pu]

If falco shields the bair falco can usmash out of shield inbetween before G&W to land on the ground and land the last hit.

lol I didn't think it had that big of an opening, even when it's well spaced?

 

[DEHF]

if it's well spaced you can dash attack, a running dair, or possibly a f smash

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

if it's well spaced you can dash attack, a running dair, or possibly a f smash

Depends on how the gaw plans his hits.

50-50 at best

Rob is our advantage yeah

Double jab is ****

 

[Cloud9157]

How the hell is ICs 3:7...?

Falco camps with lasers and Phantasms to escape. If they do get too close for comfort, jab away at them.

I wouldn't put it lower than 55:45 ICs.

 

[Denzi]

How the hell is ICs 3:7...?

Falco camps with lasers and Phantasms to escape. If they do get too close for comfort, jab away at them.

I wouldn't put it lower than 55:45 ICs.

Blizzard hits through phantasm and sets up for a grab. Nana will take a ton of the laser hits. Falco has no safe moves that separate the IC's. Most of their aerials/smashes easily hit through Phantasm. We get juggled like crazy by Uairs (which do a minimum of 18% per hit). Even if we can avoid the CG, it's rough on us.

 

[Cloud9157]

In my honest opinion, I don't think it truly matters if Nana or Popo take the lasers. Granted, you're aiming for the human controlled IC, but Nana is what you're mainly going for. So while Nana keeps taking the laser hits, it only helps me more because when I land a Phantasm, she takes more vertical knockback than Popo.

I wouldn't think Falco would jump high enough for him to be hit by a Uair by them. Wouldn't leave the ground for most of the match really, unless you get Nana in the air.

Just seems like ICs would have trouble dealing with a character that can escape quickly and can deal with SH desynced Blizzard with no trouble at all.

 

[Alphicans]

There is no way falco counters GaW. It's 50-50 for sure, it's just very hard for GaW if he's unfamiliar with the match-up.

 

[Vlade]

I'd be inclined to say it's slightly in G&W's favour

Anyway we really do need to revisit a lot of match-ups.

I'd be happy to start them since I'm on holidays now

 

[DEHF]

NO!!!! falco beats G&W trust me also kirby falco should be at least even if not in falco's favor

 

[J4pu]

say what? DEHF refuses to believe falco has bad matchups lol
Falco:IC's 100:0 Falco

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

DEHF you should incorporate the fact that you're a terribly good player when you talk about mu ratios.

Ofc you beat kirbys a lot because it's hard to be a better player then you.
Kirby and GaW is both slightly in their favor imo.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I personally think matchup should reflect how well players do at the very top level, so it DEHF plays Chudat and is beating him consistantly then we should revisit the matchup and potentially put it in Falco's favor.

 

[Kasper!]

I personally think matchup should reflect how well players do at the very top level, so it DEHF plays Chudat and is beating him consistantly then we should revisit the matchup and potentially put it in Falco's favor.

i agree

side note: why is the falco matchup thread in shambles? there are missing links for certain characters threads and plus the info is outdated in some areas.

*look at the gaw matchup thread*

i also remember on one of the matchup threads they had like a pic of lets say meta, then the info from everyone about the matchup bla bla bla followed by a ratio. Then it showed in pictures the best stages for *insert character* in this matchup and the worst stages in this matchup etc

 

[DEHF]

okay... so G&W falco is in falco favor I've beaten UTDZac, the best G&W player in the US, twice and kirby is in falco's favor as well since I've beaten MogX, the best kirby player in the west coast, more often than he has beaten me

And I'm really Reaaally REAAAAALLLY good

 

[Hawks go Caw]

I don't see how Falco vs G&W could be a huge advantage for Falco. G&W kills us like 40% sooner . . . .

 

[Alphicans]

okay... so G&W falco is in falco favor I've beaten UTDZac, the best G&W player in the US, twice and kirby is in falco's favor as well since I've beaten MogX, the best kirby player in the west coast, more often than he has beaten me

And I'm really Reaaally REAAAAALLLY good

I really hope this is a joke.