Match-Up Discussion ~ Final Week Ganon/Falcon/Link >__>

[Teran]

Ite well hold that thought until we finish all the matchups, so we can deal with the finalized chart. >.<

And OMG you have a Marth postbit? I hope you DIE

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

The chart is accurate except i think you should change the following

lucario matchup is even
marth matchup is even
pika vs falco should be 40-60

wait is that someone agreeing with me?
oh nevermind

 

[Red Arremer]

The chart is accurate except i think you should change the following

lucario matchup is even
marth matchup is even
pika vs falco should be 40-60

Discuss that with the Falcos, I just made a visualization of the information I've been given, with the exception of Jiggs because she wasn't there before, I think, and if she was, I simply overlooked her and will add her in the next version.

 

[Max Ketchum]

The chart is accurate except i think you should change the following

lucario matchup is even
marth matchup is even
pika vs falco should be 40-60

Lucario...definitely loses to Falco.

 

[King Funk]

Falco-Marth is 45-55.
Falco-Lucario is 60-40.
Falco-Pika is 40-60.

My very moderate opinion.

 

[Teran]

Oh Jesus H Christ just save it for when we've done the current matchups.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yea, just make re-discussions on the stuff you don't like once crap tier is done.

 

[Denzi]

Meta vs Falco has to be at least 45-55. Otherwise we can't ban him xD

But seriously, there should be no arguing on this one, we don't go even with him.

 

[King Funk]

O.K... Very easy.

Falco-Link 70/30 = SHDL+Shine wins campgame, CG, etc.
Falco-Falcon 75/25 = Lasers stop approach, CG, edgehog, etc.
Falco-Jiggs 60/40 = No CG, but camping still quite efficient, etc.
Falco-Ganondorf 95/5 = Campgame *****, CG, edgehog, dair out of Ganon's up-b, etc.

Do we need to discuss those further?

 

[Teran]

Discussing matchups isn't purely for ratios.
Remember, we discuss them so we get a better insight into the strategies, and archive them so that new players can learn the theory behind these matchups.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Falco vs. Link: 90-10
Falco vs. Ganon: 100-0 (well, 99-1 I guess)
Falco vs. Falcon: 80-20

Link and Ganon are both ridiculously easy to grab, and will die from a CG from a large range of percents. They both have abysmal approaches...just laser until they actually get through to you, and then since their boxing options suck, jab them away. Link's projectiles are pretty slow, just powershield/shine them and continue lasering. Ganon is...yeah.

Falcon can survive a CG spike if he recovers perfectly, and can maneuver around lasers better than Link and Ganon. He's also got faster and better options up close, and can edgeguard Falco to some degree.

Jigglypuff is close to even, 55-45 I'd say. Falco doesn't have an answer to her spaced aerials on his shield, and even though she dies early, landing kill moves on her is a *****. She also ***** Falco offstage, and doesn't have much trouble with lasers.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Lucario...definitely loses to Falco.

You'd be surprised.

I regularly talk to a experienced Lucario and he thinks its in Lucarios favour. The Lucario boards say its in their favor. i think its even. Lucario's priority RIPS through almost everything falco does and he can kill falco very easily.

Im fine with falco marth being 50-50 or 45-55

pika vs falco is definetly 60-40 pikas favour

 

[Max Ketchum]

A top Lucario (Zucco) is a good friend and crewmate of mine, and has a good amount of Falco experience. He and I both feel that Lucario loses (albeit slightly). I don't really feel like getting into specifics right now though, I'll do it some other time.

 

[smashkng]

Falco/CF is ****. Falcon is terrible at approaching, all of his aproaches are incredibly predictable. I'm practicing with Falco, and when fighting Falcon, I feel when fighting him I'm ****** him. Falcon has no approach and he is forced to do it due lasers, he has hasn't very good range and he has no priority so it's probably 90-10.

Falco/Link is also ****. Falco outcamps Link, shine outranges his zair and make Link's projectiles useless. Link boards say he can survive the chain spike if he doesn't jump while recovery. However it racks lots of damage. They also say Falco is too good against Link in close range, so Link must try to stay in mid range at all costs. Falco also has more aerial speed and better aerials than Link. He is easy to camp with Falco so 80-20.

 

[King Funk]

Discussing matchups isn't purely for ratios.
Remember, we discuss them so we get a better insight into the strategies, and archive them so that new players can learn the theory behind these matchups.

From our side, against Falcon, Link and Ganon, new players don't even need matchup theory. They just have to know how to camp well with SHDL and phantasm and chaingrab without error, and things become extremely easy. There is no particular strategy against these chars, there are only simple things that **** them.

However, the Falcon, Link and Ganon mains have to find ways to play against Falco, and we could help them a bit for that. But this should happen in their boards.

 

[wangston]

who's played legan???? You can't cg him he holds a bomb in his hand until 40%. Sure he can only do fsmash but still you can't chaingrab link, and even if you do he can recover if you just go for the the edge hog so you have to finish him off the stage..

 

[Notra]

Correct me if im wrong or miss read the conclusions to MU threads but i thought......

sheik was 35:65 40:60
lucario was 55:45
and kirby 50:50 or 45:55

i think the pika and marth r right.


AND I STRONGLY AGREE W/ DENZI. I DONT THINK WE R EVEN W/ META IT SHOULD BE 45:55

also big thanks to Onishiba. U didnt have to do that, but u gave some of ur time to help us falcos. can't be thankful enough

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Correct me if im wrong or miss read the conclusions to MU threads but i thought......

sheik was 35:65 40:60
lucario was 55:45
and kirby 50:50 or 45:55

i think the pika and marth r right.


AND I STRONGLY AGREE W/ DENZI. I DONT THINK WE R EVEN W/ META IT SHOULD BE 45:55

sheik isn't more of a counter then kirby, or pikachu. sheik goes about even with a very very small advantage.
Kirby is 45:55 i think
lucario 55:45 yeah.
pika was 65:35, but we'll see

 

[Notra]

sheik isn't more of a counter then kirby, or pikachu. sheik goes about even with a very very small advantage.
Kirby is 45:55 i think
lucario 55:45 yeah.
pika was 65:35, but we'll see

thats seems right to me. i was just goin by what i thought i saw in the thread. so when we gonna start?

 

[BleachigoZX]

A top Lucario (Zucco) is a good friend and crewmate of mine, and has a good amount of Falco experience. He and I both feel that Lucario loses (albeit slightly). I don't really feel like getting into specifics right now though, I'll do it some other time.

I had nothing to do with that right? jk I <3 Zucco

I always thought Lucario won it. His aerials all rip through Falco. Kills early, can move in quickly. I only see problems up close for Lucario.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

exactly bleach, i think it should be even

notra, falco vs mk is definetly even without planking....... shouldnt have to go into specifics

 

[BleachigoZX]

M2K told me he thinks Falco beats MK.
He said "If you camp perfectly and phantasm correctly, what can I do?"
I said "It's harder than that"
He replies "Don't approach and you shouldn't worry about the lead, and focus on not getting hit."

Its so straight forward though, but M2K said it so...

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

M2K told me he thinks Falco beats MK.
He said "If you camp perfectly and phantasm correctly, what can I do?"
I said "It's harder than that"
He replies "Don't approach and you shouldn't worry about the lead, and focus on not getting hit."

Its so straight forward though, but M2K said it so...

Ok I just realised something awesome.

If Falco becomes a MK counter there will be countless noobs picking it up, and we'll have our 'HOAW DACUS?' or 'MY LASER NO SILENT IN SHLD?' threads again!

 

[Notra]

M2K told me he thinks Falco beats MK.
He said "If you camp perfectly and phantasm correctly, what can I do?"
I said "It's harder than that"
He replies "Don't approach and you shouldn't worry about the lead, and focus on not getting hit."

Its so straight forward though, but M2K said it so...

Ok I just realised something awesome.

If Falco becomes a MK counter there will be countless noobs picking it up, and we'll have our 'HOAW DACUS?' or 'MY LASER NO SILENT IN SHLD?' threads again!

i cant argue w/ that. i mean. i guess its prob seems harder to beat mk cause the penalty for any mistake vs other chars is much worse for mk. however the more i play the easier im finding it to kill MK's. there r so many holes. Most of which r from shuttle loop and glide. I forget when it comes to meta game im not supposed to base it on how well us falcos r representing him. but how well a lvl 99 computer would (super AI. like for iRobot). Basically id just say the learning curve meets is alot higher for us and mks to be even( compared to say w/ fox, snake, or THE anit flako)

and lol at remaking the threads..

also, anyone notice how falco does seem to have **** matchups against any non-terrible chars. I like that. I can say no johns more.


we need to discuss diddys again too. w/ some videos. he seems to be the only char i havent had a decent amount of practice vs. Ayudame

 

[Alphicans]

I would hate to bring up old discussions, but after reading the falco vs snake discussion thread, I don't see how you came to the conclusion of 45-55 in snakes favor. The only person who supported that was a guy who didn't really know wtf he was talking about. Also what is this 35-65 BS vs pikachu?

EDIT: Also the only person to give a really good post and back it up with reasonable discussion in this very thread said that falco has a clear advantage over snake. How did you come up with 45-55? This whole chart seems very unreliable.

 

[AvoiD]

Once you are above 40% you can play much more aggressively with Falco: pummel him with tilts and throws off the stage. Falco's recovery is one of the most easily gimped in the game if you know what you are doing and getting him off the stage is an easy way to get big damage or early kills. If he tries to recover high, send mortars into the air and juggle him with up tilts and up airs.

Basically, if Snake can blow himself up to over 40%, can get the timing down to pull out a Grenade during a chaingrab or survive/tech the spike, it ends up being whoever can control the stage wins. Yeah, Snake's cypher recovery is predictable, but he has a better chance of not getting gimped then us.

Snake also has a chaingrab on Falco as what, Grab Release -> Boost Grab (Forgot the name for it, unless thats it) and repeat. If theres a mine planted somewhere as well, GR to that racks some damage.

Falco's hardest part in this matchup, is getting the kill. That's why its in Snakes favor. Basically it.

Also, check the Discussion thread again. That was back in like January or so, lol.

 

[Alphicans]

So you're saying if snake puts himself at a disadvantage by adding 40% damage to himself we all of a sudden lose some of our advantage? Snake can't break falco's cg, so I don't know how that's a valid point. That grab release cg doesn't last very long, and I think dthrow is a far better option anyways. Also there is the huge fact that the snake boards think falco wins in this match-up.

And again, why is pika such a huge counter? Is this cg really scaring you guys that much?

 

[Teran]

So you're saying if snake puts himself at a disadvantage by adding 40% damage to himself we all of a sudden lose some of our advantage? Snake can't break falco's cg, so I don't know how that's a valid point. That grab release cg doesn't last very long, and I think dthrow is a far better option anyways. Also there is the huge fact that the snake boards think falco wins in this match-up.

And again, why is pika such a huge counter? Is this cg really scaring you guys that much?

Pikachu's pretty good without the CG.

He's small, fast, agile, has good priority, can string moves together well.
The match is in Pika's favour. That number was reached from the general sentiments. Some of us don't fully agree but whatever, that's just the way it goes. Any good reasons to the contrary are always welcome though. Fire at will.

 

[Alphicans]

I play a pretty respectable pika all the time, and I can tell you that pika vs falco is as even as it gets. Both cg's are devastating to each other since pika has an even harder time killing than falco does. Also, "He's small, fast, agile, has good priority, can string moves together well," this applies to falco as well (not the small part I guess, but he's definitely agile and can string moves together pretty well too.) I truly believe that pika has a really hard time hitting falco, and that when it comes down to it falco can wait the match out and slowly catch up in percentage if a 0-100 CG is pulled off. Maybe I can get some vids up to show what I mean.

 

[Teran]

It's a campfest and Falco's good that that, but you should remember that Pika's CG is far more devastating.

I mean, a perfectly executed CG gets Falco into death %, what with him being light as a feather (pun intended).

 

[Alphicans]

It's definitely scary, but I don't see pika killing falco for another 50% after the cg is over and done with, and 50% is hard to rack on if it turns into a total camp fest.

 

[AvoiD]

So you're saying if snake puts himself at a disadvantage by adding 40% damage to himself we all of a sudden lose some of our advantage? Snake can't break falco's cg, so I don't know how that's a valid point. That grab release cg doesn't last very long, and I think dthrow is a far better option anyways. Also there is the huge fact that the snake boards think falco wins in this match-up.

And again, why is pika such a huge counter? Is this cg really scaring you guys that much?

Mm, not really. The CG is what we have that basically brings the matchup close to even. I'm pretty sure theres 1 frame you can pull a grenade out unless your CGing is perfect. And half the Snake boards play the matchup wrong.

Pika's CG is deadly. More below.

I play a pretty respectable pika all the time, and I can tell you that pika vs falco is as even as it gets. Both cg's are devastating to each other since pika has an even harder time killing than falco does. Also, "He's small, fast, agile, has good priority, can string moves together well," this applies to falco as well (not the small part I guess, but he's definitely agile and can string moves together pretty well too.) I truly believe that pika has a really hard time hitting falco, and that when it comes down to it falco can wait the match out and slowly catch up in percentage if a 0-100 CG is pulled off. Maybe I can get some vids up to show what I mean.

IMO, Falco has a harder time killing, basically all your kill moves with Falco would have to be mindgamed/edgeguarded/gimped. Falco can camp yeah, but Pika can crawl/duck underneath the lasers. Falco can reflect his neutral B, so it wouldn't be so much of a campfest. Vids would be nice though.

It's definitely scary, but I don't see pika killing falco for another 50% after the cg is over and done with, and 50% is hard to rack on if it turns into a total camp fest.

Chaingrab to around 100%, you have the options of Up Smash to Thunder unless they expect it. If not, get a grab off, and edgeguard. All of Pikachu's moves beat Falco's phantasm I'm sure.

I'd post more, but I'm tired as ****.

 

[Alphicans]

CG'ing perfect isn't hard, and if you're good at falco you should be able to do it with ease. I am pretty sure I have more experience in the pika match-up than the majority of you in this thread, so I will def try to get vids up.

EDIT: How do you expect to edgegaurd falco? I usually go for the ledge, and that's pretty hard to stop >_>. Getting up from the ledge can be hard, but it usually comes down to a gamble even in higher level games.

 

[Teran]

Shine on Pika's thunder is an asset too, Kuro.

 

[phi1ny3]

If you guys haven't done the MU numbers for lucario yet, I now am thoroughly convinced it's 45:55 falco's favor, if falco camps hard in this MU lucario has a haaaaaaaaaaaaard time getting anything done in damage on him. If it weren't for the fact that falco's properties are ideal for lucario strings, I'd arguably say 60:40 for Falco. Remember, camp and you'll be fine, just don't try to actually fight him and do hit-and-no fun tactics.
Sorry to barge in.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Going back to Lucario vs. Falco, now that I feel like writing about it:

Long range: CLEAR Falco advantage. Lasers have a higher firing rate than Aura Spheres by far, and Falco has shine. Yeah...pretty much no contest here. Lucario is forced to approach, and I believe he crawls too high to avoid even imperfect lasers.

Mid range: Lucario advantage. Lucario's amazing fsmash will hit Falco, but Falco can't use lasers nearly as effectively, nor can he jab/grab/ftilt. His options are shine (lol), phantasm through Lucario (gets hit by fsmash, but is faster if they're both initiated at the same time), retreat back to long range by rolling or running (doesn't work if Lucario managed to get you near the edge), or attempt to close distance by powershielding the fsmash and punishing with something. Although Lucario has the advantage here, it's really only from one move, which happens to be kinda slow and definitely counterable.

Close range: Falco advantage. Their jabs have basically the same range, and Falco's comes out 4 frames sooner. Lucario also has garbage grab range, so the first hit of jab fully spaced will likely be safe on block (as will ftilt). Yeah, it sounds boring, but those are pretty much the only moves necessary up close. Oh well, play to win, not for fun. Phantasm away once you jab/ftilt him to reset camping. At low percents, even though you can't chaingrab Lucario, you have all kinds of dthrow dair/boost smash stuff to do. 0-40 is entirely possible.

In the air (onstage): Lucario advantage. If they're facing each other in the air, Lucario definitely wins. Fair > all of Falco's aerials except bair. When Falco's back is to Lucario's face, then they'll trade or Falco will win, which is good for Falco (13 damage > 5). Lucario isn't in a bad situation by being above Falco at all, like he would be against characters like Marth and Meta Knight, so he can safely dair and fastfall nair his way to the ground safely. Properly spaced aerials won't get grabbed. Falco's uair has surprising horizontal range, which could help him against Lucario's fair. None of Falco's aerials are safe on block except a spaced bair, so...yeah. Not a good idea to attack Lucario's shield from the air.

In the air (offstage): CLEAR Lucario advantage. I'm sure everyone knows why, so I'm not even gonna bother summarizing this part.

Killing: Not sure. Lucario has to get in to touch Falco, which is difficult because of lasers/phantasm. Falco shouldn't be getting touched by fsmash under normal circumstances. If he's not dumb with his approaches (lol Falco approaching) or recovery, there's no reason to get hit by it. Lucario has to get Falco up to really high percents to land a kill (and himself, too). Utilt and the aerials are probably going to be the kill moves of choice. Falco will kill with bair/usmash at lower percents, dsmash/utilt/dash attack at higher percents. You're Falco, you should have no problem lasering them to 200 and killing them with dash attack.

Edit: wtf beaten to it...?

 

[phi1ny3]

You neglected some of lucario's tilt power, dtilt is probably one of his best against phantasm, and ftilt is really good overall too (it's basically fsmash with no kill potential but good shield pressure and faster/angleable). Oh, and lucario ***** spotdodges, it's the advantage of lingering hitboxes (as opposed to multihit). Be wary, even if falco's has like only 2 frames of vulnerability.
You summed it up nicely, I think lucario will try for either an fsmash kill or aerial kill (uair, bair, and dair if it isn't staled are really, really good), gets even better if he can somehow manage a grab->uthrow (which if you are spacing right, will be really rare, falco's moves are too fast).
like I said, camping hard is annoying, like really, really annoying. If you don't mind it, you're going to win this pretty well.
I saw a video of Rayku (lucario) vs. Kismet (falco) recently, Lucario was winning when Kismet was doing the MU normally. As soon as he went camping on SV, and even RC (lol), he was winning.

 

[Notra]

CG'ing perfect isn't hard, and if you're good at falco you should be able to do it with ease. I am pretty sure I have more experience in the pika match-up than the majority of you in this thread, so I will def try to get vids up.

EDIT: How do you expect to edgegaurd falco? I usually go for the ledge, and that's pretty hard to stop >_>. Getting up from the ledge can be hard, but it usually comes down to a gamble even in higher level games.

more experience than the rest of us? i mean the ppl here seem to know what they r talking about. i live in the midwest and there r tons of ppl and friends who try to be like anther. so ive played a fair amount of decent to pro pikas. and the match up is very hard, and falco boards r right. imo

 

[Max Ketchum]

Yeah, ftilt and dtilt are both good against phantasm. I forgot about that.

I know he ***** spot dodges. Like you said, Falco is barely open at all. Even if his hitboxes linger, it's not always gonna be enough to hit that ***** of a spot dodge. Plus, Falco has NO reason to spot dodge vs. Lucario anyway, he can just roll away to phantasm or shield whatever Lucario's gonna do. If Lucario's going to grab him, Falco's grab outranges it, so he can just grab first.

I know this matchup from both sides. I used to main Lucario, then Falco, and I've seen the matchup happen plenty. One other benefit Lucario has is ftilting Falco's shield from moderately far away, but it doesn't make much of a difference. It's just a faster, weaker fsmash.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yup, that's what I hate about it.
Lucario is going to be clawing at every opportunity, and it still will be obnoxious. I think one other thing that isn't really MU worthy but I'll still tell anyways. Sometimes lucario will reverse DT (basically hold back on the stick when he's facing forward) when falco lasers. what it does is that instead of that from-behind movement it usually gets, lucario will slide forward a large amount and be invincible for the duration. DT normally isn't that great (just waaaay too many vulnerable frames), but some lucarios (like me) have cued it on sound. This will be used ONLY to close the gap in long range zoning, as actually approaching with it any closer than within SH distance is essentially smash/grab bait. Don't get surprised by it, be ready to reset spacing with phantasm if it does happen. Most of the time, it won't though.
Oh yeah, crawl can get under imperfect lasers, but perfect lasers nab him.