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Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.
- Thread starter t3h Icy
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Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Jimbo Slice
Smash Journeyman
It's like Victra said, in the melee boards every thread is a social thread.
Whoa, Druggedfox when did you get backroom status?
Whoa, Druggedfox when did you get backroom status?
-ShadowPhoenix-
Smash Bash
I want BR status :[
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Want to make out?
CaptainRanD0
Smash Apprentice
watch out ShadwPhoenx, he'll start out fine till he brings out the rake
-ShadowPhoenix-
Smash Bash
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
kids will be gay of course this is the smash community!!
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
there's room for one more mana :D
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Just the other day, after posting more or less nonstop in character specific, matchup, and tier list threads intelligently (I hope) for an extended period of time
This thread should simply be split into people willing and unwilling to make out with KK. It could say so under their names; rather than smash ace, it could say "Will make out with KK". I mean, things would be so much easier here, and there'd be no pretenses =P
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Agreed.
Druggedfox do you want to make out?
Druggedfox do you want to make out?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
you're ugly i'm never talking to you again
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Hmm... how do you get the ability to change your title? It seems like the only way worth answering
Real talk people; does no one have anything useful to contribute to the matchup thread? Not just numbers, but intelligent discussion? Idk, someone say something smart about falco-peach. That seems to be one most people have different opinions on =D (Alternatively, someone please say marth counters sheik, I want to see what happens)
Real talk people; does no one have anything useful to contribute to the matchup thread? Not just numbers, but intelligent discussion? Idk, someone say something smart about falco-peach. That seems to be one most people have different opinions on =D (Alternatively, someone please say marth counters sheik, I want to see what happens)
-ShadowPhoenix-
Smash Bash
Marth counters sheikHmm... how do you get the ability to change your title? It seems like the only way worth answering
Real talk people; does no one have anything useful to contribute to the matchup thread? Not just numbers, but intelligent discussion? Idk, someone say something smart about falco-peach. That seems to be one most people have different opinions on =D (Alternatively, someone please say marth counters sheik, I want to see what happens)
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
ICs 50:50 Falco
One thing that really stands out to me in this match-up is that lasers rarely do what they're supposed to. When IC's have any kind of horizontal momentum at all, the laser only hits one of them and it's effect is negligible. IC's have tons of ways to exploit this, and although it might seem gimmicky or situational, it works. Most people know about wd f-smash and sh blizzard approaches (laser cancels out Popo's move, but Nana retains her wd/jump momentum and hits anyways). ICs can also dash or wd backwards if Falco approaches with laser; Nana will take the laser instead and Falco has to be really careful not to commit to something that Popo can punish. At midrange ice blocks oos trade damage with lasers, or at the very least force Falco to jump/shield/stop lasering.
Falco also doesn't have the horizontal maneuverability that he needs in order to platform camp them. IC's u-air is a huge threat from below, since it beats all of his moves and a simple u-air -> n-air or b-air might push him offstage.
Falco has a pretty easy time separating ICs (single shine) and he's decent at killing Nana; it usually takes a f-smash -> laser/other move, d-air -> d-air near the ledge, or a shine combo off the top. I think that overall, ICs have a more difficult time landing hits that lead into combos, but they're damage output from a clean hit is higher. They also have plenty of moves that knock Falco off the stage and lead to low percentage edgeguards if he DIs incorrectly.
ICs 55:45 Falcon
People need to get over knee and raptor boost spam. They have plenty of answers to unintelligent raptor boosts, like hitting him, or shielding and then hitting him. The reward is really high if you manage to read a roll into raptor boost or something, but the move isn't as safe or easy to land as people from 2006 seem to think. Knee is really good, but ICs have answers to that too. They can shield -> buffer roll, which usually resets to neutral position, or just avoid getting hit by it in the first place.
I just think an aggressive Falcon will have a really hard time landing good knees and stomps and raptor boosts more often than he gets grabbed or combo'd to death. Platform camping Falcon is a little better, since he can reduce the match-up to whoever plays smarter and lands the first hit, but it only works on two or three stages so ICs still win this match-up.
IC 35:65 Ganon
I basically agree with Kage, and we had a lengthy discussion on this match-up a while ago so I don't really have much else to say. ICs can get a lot of damage out of u-air and grab combos, but Ganon also lives for a long time, and it's hard getting the first hit against him in the first place. From what I've seen and experienced, the match-up usually goes: Ganon eventually lands a hit, Nana dies without any kind of resistance, eventually he hits Popo again and the stock ends. I think Ganon has an easier time cornering ICs and finding openings, and his hits somehow go further, so 35/65 is a good number.
One thing that really stands out to me in this match-up is that lasers rarely do what they're supposed to. When IC's have any kind of horizontal momentum at all, the laser only hits one of them and it's effect is negligible. IC's have tons of ways to exploit this, and although it might seem gimmicky or situational, it works. Most people know about wd f-smash and sh blizzard approaches (laser cancels out Popo's move, but Nana retains her wd/jump momentum and hits anyways). ICs can also dash or wd backwards if Falco approaches with laser; Nana will take the laser instead and Falco has to be really careful not to commit to something that Popo can punish. At midrange ice blocks oos trade damage with lasers, or at the very least force Falco to jump/shield/stop lasering.
Falco also doesn't have the horizontal maneuverability that he needs in order to platform camp them. IC's u-air is a huge threat from below, since it beats all of his moves and a simple u-air -> n-air or b-air might push him offstage.
Falco has a pretty easy time separating ICs (single shine) and he's decent at killing Nana; it usually takes a f-smash -> laser/other move, d-air -> d-air near the ledge, or a shine combo off the top. I think that overall, ICs have a more difficult time landing hits that lead into combos, but they're damage output from a clean hit is higher. They also have plenty of moves that knock Falco off the stage and lead to low percentage edgeguards if he DIs incorrectly.
ICs 55:45 Falcon
People need to get over knee and raptor boost spam. They have plenty of answers to unintelligent raptor boosts, like hitting him, or shielding and then hitting him. The reward is really high if you manage to read a roll into raptor boost or something, but the move isn't as safe or easy to land as people from 2006 seem to think. Knee is really good, but ICs have answers to that too. They can shield -> buffer roll, which usually resets to neutral position, or just avoid getting hit by it in the first place.
I just think an aggressive Falcon will have a really hard time landing good knees and stomps and raptor boosts more often than he gets grabbed or combo'd to death. Platform camping Falcon is a little better, since he can reduce the match-up to whoever plays smarter and lands the first hit, but it only works on two or three stages so ICs still win this match-up.
IC 35:65 Ganon
I basically agree with Kage, and we had a lengthy discussion on this match-up a while ago so I don't really have much else to say. ICs can get a lot of damage out of u-air and grab combos, but Ganon also lives for a long time, and it's hard getting the first hit against him in the first place. From what I've seen and experienced, the match-up usually goes: Ganon eventually lands a hit, Nana dies without any kind of resistance, eventually he hits Popo again and the stock ends. I think Ganon has an easier time cornering ICs and finding openings, and his hits somehow go further, so 35/65 is a good number.
Winston
Smash Master
I mean, we have gone through all of the characters once, so a lot of people have said their bit already.
The most controversial matchups have either been argued into a stalemate (Jigglypuff/Marth) or are obscure enough so that most people aren't informed enough to argue about them (pretty much mid tier and below).
I'm not saying that we're done or anything, but its not surprising that its moving kinda slowly now.
I'd love to talk about Luigi but I don't think anyone else really cares about that
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I care about luigi! I taught someone to be a luigi main (ha im a ****, i should have taught them a higher tier =P)
Jartravious
Smash Journeyman
Care to explain why Luigi is not mid tier? I guess I just don't understand his weaknesses.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
lol didn't you get banned for this already.
it probably has something to do with his recovery being extremely easy to edgeguard. and he's very slow when it comes to aerial mobility, and his aerials happen to be his best moves, so he kinda has to put himself in a bad position, just to use his good moves. he can double aerial though, so it's not like theres a huge window to punish his short hops...
idk i guess i don't really know his other weaknesses that well.
he's pretty hard to combo, and can just nair his way out of most combos, which is super annoying.
Winston
Smash Master
Hmmm, well, if Luigi gets knocked off the stage legitly like at higher percents and he DIs well, his recovery is about as good as Sheik's or Marth's in a similar situation. Fox can gimp him really easily, though.
Aerial mobility is a big deal in some matchups. Limits his possible approaches by a lot, and if he gets hit in the air it's likely he'll eat a hit coming down. His mobility being mostly wavedash based makes things like Ganon's aerial spacing and some projectiles really effective.
Double aerials can be useful but they aren't that good, really. Most characters can punish if you use them regularly.
As for being hard to combo, he can nair out of sloppy combos, but he definitely still get can punished hard.
Falcon will combo his face in if the Falcon is technical.
Falco can use his vertical comboing and force Luigi to tech on platforms to continue the string, just like he can do to any character.
Fox and Sheik only have short combos on him but they are fairly effective and they can often force Luigi into the air, where they can punish him further when trying to get down. etc. Sometimes I get comboed hard by Fox and Sheik but it's probably just my bad DI.
I guess those are his obvious weaknesses, but I would say that he isn't higher simply because his combination of offense + defense isn't better than the characters higher up.
the difference between marth and shieks recovery is they can defend themselves while returning though... luigi just goes fetile position while charging his side b, or spends time doing his yodel which also sucks for priority.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgvix3T12zs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgvix3T12zs
Winston
Smash Master
Marth's and Sheik's recoveries aren't as good as you think >.> Once they get past a certain point (i.e. forced to use something other than their double jump) there are guaranteed edgeguards on them. Luigi at least has a chance of misfiring.
His recovery is way worse than theirs if he gets knocked offstage at low percent, but comparable if it's higher percent with good DI.
my point is just that like half the playable characters in the game have pretty bad recoveries. It's definitely not a strength, but it's not a weakness unique to Luigi or anything.
His recovery is way worse than theirs if he gets knocked offstage at low percent, but comparable if it's higher percent with good DI.
my point is just that like half the playable characters in the game have pretty bad recoveries. It's definitely not a strength, but it's not a weakness unique to Luigi or anything.
Did you know that Sheik can go below FD, gimp you, and recover all at the same time? OMG facts..
No srs. Sheik's recovery is godly with the correct DI and she can pretty much leave the stage and still make it back as long as the player knows her limits.
No srs. Sheik's recovery is godly with the correct DI and she can pretty much leave the stage and still make it back as long as the player knows her limits.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
Luigi's is observably worse than Marth or Sheiks.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
He's pretty much on level with DK, mario, etc. I would compare to mario in that, there's not one big thing hurting him. It's not like half the low tiers who get CG'd easily, or like kirby who dies at 0% to a jab =P Luigi just doesn't have enough going for him to be above the higher tiers. He has terrible aerial mobility, great ground mobility. He has solid comboing, but only half decent range. His edgeguarding's pretty good, could be better. His recovery is fairly predictable (sans misfires), making him not tooo difficult to edgeguard (fox can go next to the edge and repeatedly press down b, no timing. When the coin hits him, he'll immediately shine spike luigi >.>)
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
I think he was mostly commenting on how easy it is to edgeguard Marth and Sheik once they're forced to use their up Bs.
Marth has to deal with lightshield->reverse aerial shenanigans and Sheik has to deal with normal getup->smashed off stage stuff.
In that respect, it's not like Luigi is all that easier to edgeguard than Marth or Sheik when they're all forced to use their full recovery.
I should mention that Marth and Sheik still have significantly better recoveries than Luigi because most of the time they're not absolutely forced to use their full recovery and they have much better mixup options in that situation, where Luigi...doesn't.
Winston
Smash Master
Luigi can do this too. Doesn't make his recovery any better.
Situationally worse.
Agreed with your post, but just to nitpick, if Luigi sweetspots well the coin won't hit fox. Doesn't matter, though, because Fox can just use ledge invincibility to get the shinespike.
EDIT:
Alright, whatever guys, I concede the argument. I know Luigi's recovery blows. I guess I just think that Marth and Sheik's recoveries are worse than you guys think.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Nah your nitpicking is right; I honestly hoped no one would say anything =D =D =D
Fortress | Sveet
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Marth's recovery is seriously one of the best because of timing. He has the most off stage stalling options of any character besides jigglypuff. Because of this he can wait for people who grab edge to run out of invincibility forcing them to roll or get off edge. After his upb, he stays in place for a good amount of time (someone once told me ~20 frames, if anyone has this data please let me know). Not to mention his stall move has a hitbox which gives him opportunities to clear edge with a hitbox. If he has his jump, he can use it to safely clear the edge with a fair and/or to stall even longer if needed.
I think the only way to edge guard a marth is to properly call his timing or to edge stall perfectly. There is also one other option, which is to grab the edge after he upbs but before he grabs the edge, there is a window of a few frames after his hitbox ends before he grabs.
I think the only way to edge guard a marth is to properly call his timing or to edge stall perfectly. There is also one other option, which is to grab the edge after he upbs but before he grabs the edge, there is a window of a few frames after his hitbox ends before he grabs.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Shieldhogging don exits. Amirite?
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
look bro. grab ledge. he has to up b on stage. if he is low just wait for the yell to roll
and the marth killer.
marth's recover is coo, but hitting him once while he is recovering limits him getting back since he doesn't generate much horizon momentum.
sooo situationally good. falcon can actually be put in a better position by getting hit away and up. its not bad, and its quick. but there are only like two-three characters you might say them *****s can just recover like its a skill.
m2 has more stall than marth. and no landing lag.
and the marth killer.
marth's recover is coo, but hitting him once while he is recovering limits him getting back since he doesn't generate much horizon momentum.
sooo situationally good. falcon can actually be put in a better position by getting hit away and up. its not bad, and its quick. but there are only like two-three characters you might say them *****s can just recover like its a skill.
m2 has more stall than marth. and no landing lag.
john!
Smash Hero
peach can stall like 5x longer with about 4 different moves lol
marth's recovery is great and a lot of ppl underrate it, but i think you overrate it a bit
the aforementioned shield edgehog, projectiles to mess up trajectory, wack hitboxes like sheik's bair, etc...
marth's recovery is great and a lot of ppl underrate it, but i think you overrate it a bit
the aforementioned shield edgehog, projectiles to mess up trajectory, wack hitboxes like sheik's bair, etc...
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well to me, it seems like it's only an OK recovery. It's pretty much only about making the good decision to edgeguard Marth which is relatively easy I find, at least with the manly characters and my experience. If he tries to sweetspot you can reverse up-air or downair. If you stay on the ledge too long then you'll get hit. If he goes to the stage from very low then I think it's possible to put him back off stage only if you still have invincibility frames from the ledge and then you can ledge hop and then jump aerial or grab to aerial wtv you want. It's more or less an edgeguard on reaction in general.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Marth's recovery isn't that good LOL.
MalwareDie
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- May 28, 2010
- Messages
- 66
Don't make KirbyKaze get the rake.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Every High tier (minus Falcon) has a better recovery than marth lol
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