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I dont think so. It SHOULDNT be banned. There have been 0 logical arguments to support its illegality.
LOL that samus fox is one of those meh. In my honest opinion I think HugS is clouded by his own ****. When you get to a certain level of confidence with a MU you start saying its not that bad, its a lil better than I thought, etc. You just arent worried about the bs that fox has because by now you have some sort of answer to it. I think its just fair to say Hugo goes even with fox, but samus might be a lil less.
Yes, it's advocacy for legal wobbling. This isn't the thread for yet another wobbling debate, but I'll accept the banning of wobbling if someone can give me a cogent, hell even a semi valid argument as to why. But you can't because there isn't. Thus, I assume all IC's matchups factor in wobbling.
Samus is definitely equal to Falco (I still am arguing that Samus has the adantage) but I believe that Fox has a slight advantage. It's not big it also can be stage dependent.
i have to disagree.
It doesn't matter whether or not wobbling should be banned. The fact is that is usually wobbling IS BANNED. his chart isn't made for some convenient alternate reality where wobbling isn't banned, this is made based under the current rule set and right now the majority of tournaments have wobbling banned therefore we should discussed the match pus with wobbling banned.
Shiek vs Puff is by far Shiek's worst match up. 60-40 is inaccurate. It is at best 65-35 in Jigs favor.
yeap. Falco's combos typically continue for longer and deal more damage. unfortunately, at top level play being efficient is more important than just dealing a bunch of damage. the fact that Falco's finishers usually require some sort of reading as opposed to Fox's guaranteed shine -> (insert amount of shines here until they're too close to the ledge to shine them again and then still hit them with) upsmash and shine-> grab -> u-throw -> u-air/bair.
yeah, he goes 1.8 ft further than Fox does on both tech-rolls. however, Captain Falcon's tech-rolls go between 1 and 4 feet further than Fox's do, yet he still gets ***** by Sheik's tech-chase game, so this is still a pretty moot point.
yeap... you still haven't convinced me that Falco has enough options exclusive to him that Fox doesn't have an equal or greater functionally similar alternative to counteract the same instances in Fox's options in order have a similarly favored match-up against Sheik.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86l524gW_aE
Fox is better at getting Sheik off-stage. Fox's nair is also a better approach option than Falco has due to Fox's faster dash speed. Fox's ability to mix up his movement with dash dancing and wavedashes as well as maneuvering platforms where applicable is unmatched in this game. Falco has characteristics unique to him that Fox wishes he could have, however in this match-up Falco doesn't have the same ability that Fox does in handling it.
The current MBR Recommended Ruleset does not ban Wobbling.
Historically, Sheik's have lost to Fox players the most. Though, Puff's metagame hasn't exactly been as high as it has recently. I'd be willing to settle for 60-40.
Moving around platforms and doing needles means you have to be on a higher plane than Puff at some point and that can open the floor to all sorts of nasty Uair/Pound/etc. setups. This would be less of an issue if Sheik wasn't such combo food, or if she wasn't so easy to edeguard as Puff, but she is.
Yea i already agreed that fox outright finishes better than falco. But then again, you also agree falco builds more damage easily. this is important, especially with a char who's recovery is as easily edgeguarded as sheik, even when falco doesnt outright kill as well as fox, and long as he puts sheik off stage to end the combo, things are still fine.
Terrible argument. First of all distance isnt everything. The only reason why i mention distance at all is because i was directly comparing falco and fox, who otherwise, have identical tech rolls. falcon's roll is SLOW. on top of that, he doesnt have a **** 1 frame move that combos into his moveset if the sheik should react even a half second too slow. Bringing up falcon was a terrible idea.
I havent? The matchups are very similar for all intents and purposes where it really matters. They both combo sheik to bits, they edgeguard her EXACTLY the same, they both get gimped the same, they both suffer the same anti-pressure options (nair oos beats both sheild pressure). The only difference which matters at all fox kills better, while simultaneously having a slightly harder time escaping tech chases. I'd say that more than enough to prove that they BOTH have advantage over sheik. Besides, you've yet to make an argument for why sheik is even with falco but loses to fox
Are you really going to pull this "one youtube link = definitive evidence" bullcrap on me? come on now, you're better than that. Also, EVERYONE knows mango's laser game is less than par for the course of other top falcos. he mostly relies on just being better than the rest of the world.
I agree with everything the except the last statement. Falco's unique attributes are more than enough for compensating for what fox does. just because falco doesnt have a amazing dd game, doesnt mean sheik automatically has an answer for his **** laser control and Dair destruction.
lous
I guess the best Sheik in the world forgot about those things, too?
I guess the best sheik in the world has next to no matchup experience compared to hbox in the same matchup? Just a thought. We've already debated the sheik/puff matchup to death, and I think most people agreed that 60:40 was not a terrible compromise.
It may not be a terrible compromise but it's not very accurate either. Amsah is one of the most experience pros in the world, I don't think match up experience played too big a role in him getting ***** the way he did. And if I remember the debates correctly a lot of people were ignorant on stuff which Puff has over Shiek in the match which really skewed the result
People have made really great arguments as to why the match up is even. And the pro Samus and Spacies players seem to agree with it. I think the fact that Hugs goes even or flat out beats most spacies players is indicative that the match ups are at least even.
Fair enough.
I remember pre APex ppl were saying Mango was 2222 good and wasnt the best example to use as far as MUs were concered, Hungrybox was that *****. But now he isnt? If Hbox is better than everyone else again then we would probably have to use king or darc(not really all that bad). But I think most ppl had hbox in mind when the rest of jiggz MUs were done and they kept mango an outlier.
There's a big difference between "waveshine sheik literally across the stage into downsmash into grab the edge, ledgehop invincible bair to regrab the edge to force an up b, to stand up to more free damage" and "waveshine -> single grab/upsmash". I don't think the former is reliable because of Smash DI on the shine.
Samus has an unparalleled defense, pretty good zoning, and a mediocre but passable punishment game, which makes her like a bad version of Jigglypuff. Which is still decent. She certainly does better in the space animal matchups than characters like Falcon and Ganon. Compared to the rest of the mid tier cast, holding your own against both Falco and Fox is pretty good.
Amazing by what standards? He's a decent character, but just going even with Fox/Falco while struggling with Jiggs, getting dismembered by Sheik, and randomly having tough matchups with mediocre characters like Falcon and Ganon isn't "amazing". The Marth representation is more or less about where it should be right now.
You can still reach Sheik with Shines if you do good, fast WDs, unless they get like multiple inputs of SDI. I'm also fairly sure some Foxes could do that if they really sat down and tried it and worked it out, and that sort of punishment at low percent with high consistency is a pain to deal with.
As for sheik: read what KK said. It's possible to follow SDI, if they DI upsmash away and off stage they can get edgeguarded to hell. You can continuously waveshine until you notice SDI, THEN upsmash, which could be anywhere from 1-5 shines on FD. As he said, there's also a lot of 50/50 stuff. Maybe there's a situation where the only way sheik can get out is by nairing, so the fox just DD out the way and continues comboing.
heavy, fastfalling, big people? So like Bowser, DK, Ganon? Pretty sure most character have an easy advantage against them.
Well, those blanket statements come from me watching a lot of Hugs videos against high/top level players, as well as Hugs' own words on the subject. If you want me to break it down, these are the defensive attributes that I had in mind:
I'm not exaggerating anything, really. I acknowledged that Marth goes even with spacies. The thing is, spacies themselves go even with spacies and have overall better matchups, so Marth's matchups aren't "amazing" enough to deserve a whole lot more representation than he has now.
There's too much stuff to address all of it, but here are my general thoughts:
