Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Merkuri]

then peach should be top tier then

you guys are overestimating Pikachu's abilities

everyone can gimp spaces if they're as good as predicting their recoveries as AXE is.

almost everyone can chaingrab spacies too but the problem is how in the world to get that grab. AXE is just really good at getting grabs, but that doesn't change the fact that Pikachu's grab range is the smallest in the game.

Peach can't gimp spacies as well as Pikachu can, her chain grab also isn't as effective because she can't combo off it well and it sends them so high that almost all platforms would screw it up. Also Peach is slow as ****. I don't see why you're comparing the two characters.

Pikachu's grab range may be small but his speed kind of makes up for it. Pikachu does not have a bad grab game if we forget about shield grabbing.

 

[rhan]

There are alot of Character that should be rated higher but people are to lazy/intimidated to explore them. I put Pika at bottom of High on some random list I made and people laughed. Nobody laughed at my boi Axe though. I was starting to regret not driving up for Day 3. Then I saw Finals and was glad I didn't. I might have stabbed someone.

Pika still isn't a high tier. Ever. Axe is still one person. Obviously he has opened eyes for the character and shown people that Pika is actually good.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I wasn't comparing the two, i was responding to SpamArrow's statement that Pikachu should be moved up based on Axe's results alone. If Pikachu should be moved up because of one player, shouldn't Peach as well?

Peach's chaingrab on spacies is absurdly good and it doesn't matter if you can't combo off of it well when you can simply grab until whatever percent fair/nair/dsmash them off the stage and edgeguard them.

Peach is definitely better than Pikachu at gimping when she's near the ledge. Turnips, dsmash, bair, and nair all outclass Pikachu's measly ftilt/nair/up-B gimps

Grab range is important for getting grabs in general, not just shield grabs. Pikachu's grab game in general is decent at best because of his speed, but the fact that pikachu's range in general is so low makes grabs and al his moves so much of a commitment.

Pikachu would at best be at the middle of mid-tier, no higher.

 

[dch111]

I wasn't comparing the two, i was responding to SpamArrow's statement that Pikachu should be moved up based on Axe's results alone.

I read that as, "based on what we have seen here today". His "results" being what he demonstrated the character was capable of.

 

[N64]

I', starting to think Pikachu vs Spacies isn't that bad. Pikachu is so good at getting them off the stage and gimping them, he can chain grab them combo the **** out of them and he can even keep up with fox's speed and run circles around Falco.

I think it should be
Fox > Pikachu
Falco > Pikachu

Last i spoke with axe we both agreed that falco and to a slightly lesser extent fox are pretty tough matches for pikachu assuming both players are familiar with the matchup. Pikachu has plenty of gimping power but should have quite a difficult time setting it up.

I don't want to get in much of a debate about axe beating notable foxes and falcos meaning pika does well against them, as there's an entire history of the matchup (and specifically how well he has done against other notable foxes and falcos) that i'm pretty sure I know better than a lot of people in here. Axe is amazing and deserves the placement he got at apex, i just want to be reasonable with how the matchup is. If both players have equalish skill and equalish knowledge of the matchup, pikachu has a much harder time than the spacey.

I'm positive axe would agree with me on Falco >> Pika, and pretty sure he would for Fox >> Pika too.


The matchup I'm really interested in talking with him about is Pika vs. Peach. Neither of us came to a clear consensus on how good/bad it is.

edit:

Peach can't gimp spacies as well as Pikachu can, her chain grab also isn't as effective because she can't combo off it well and it sends them so high that almost all platforms would screw it up. Also Peach is slow as ****. I don't see why you're comparing the two characters.

Pikachu's grab range may be small but his speed kind of makes up for it. Pikachu does not have a bad grab game if we forget about shield grabbing.

I don't think their edgeguarding games on spacies are that comparable, Peach has an easier time getting either to the edge than pika, and thus creating edgeguard opportunities. Once off the edge, pika might have a slight edgeguarding advantage (except that peach's bair beats ****ing everything) but how they edgeguard and how they get spacies off the edge are so situationally different that i find it just odd to try to say either edgeguards spacies better. The thing that is different, however, is that pikachu relies more on getting those edgeguards (as his damage output and priority are bad) than peach probably does.

I think you're overstating pika's grab game on spacies as well. Platforms break chaingrab just the same as it does for peach, and his options out of uthrow are platform chasing (not always viable, and often about as good as peach's would be), and usmash which is good at low (under 30) and high (over 100) percent and otherwise usually doesn't follow up to much of anything afterwards. The main use of pika grabbing spacies is bthrow anyways in any non-fd stage.

Having a comparable runspeed to fox doesn't make grabbing him that much easier bro. Lotsa chars **** fox out of a grab, and he's more than able to prevent getting grabbed by most, that's kinda one of the things he's good at.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I love how people think they have an idea what they are talking about.

who do you think one of the main contributos in pika's MUs was.

I promise you it wasn't merkuri.

im sure the MU is represented correctly. Axe clearly outplayed his opponents.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Axe is amazering <3

 

[Strong Badam]

Do any apex results call for any particular reworkings of the matchups?

The match-ups haven't changed over the weekend.

 

[Winston]

The match-ups haven't changed over the weekend.

right, do you guys know what being too results-oriented means?

 

[NJzFinest]

The match-ups haven't changed over the weekend.

 

[Merkuri]

@Kaostar: I was just stating my opinion. You don't need to be an a$$ about it.

 

[Shiri]

It wouldn't be Melee if people weren't demeaning for no reason.

I do agree with Carl that the matchups haven't "changed" themselves over the weekend. As much as I'm about to slaughter the golden calf that is the "pro American space animal player", they mostly got outplayed and you can even spot some times where they just did some really unintelligent things (it's the year 2010, I don't know why people still get near the edge when Pikachu is there).

I think it's good that people want to look at the matchups again, but don't be so hasty to change what hasn't really...changed.

 

[Merkuri]

Well you can say you shouldn't go near the ledge when fighting Pikachu but this seems to me like the soccer mentality where the striker is never right unless he scores. If Jman were to fight Axe in the middle and lose people would say he should have camped, when Jman camps near the ledge and loses people would have said he should have stayed in the middle. It's like there is no right answer.

 

[Druggedfox]

The match-ups haven't changed over the weekend.

I didn't say the matchups changed, but there might've been something brought to light because of apex. I mean, back years ago people said fox jiggs was something ridiculous like 70/30, although nowadays we clearly say something else. The matchup itself never changed, but the players and the metagame did. All I was pointing out that apex may have brought to light subtleties in matchups we were previously unaware of.

A few examples include:
Wobbles vs Armada friendlies. I knew the matchup was bad, but I didn't realize how bad it was until I saw armada completely **** nana.

Hbox vs Armada GF. I mean, iirc last thing I heard was 55:45 jiggs' favor? Honestly, after watching how completely hbox dominated by exploiting the matchup, I find it difficult to say it's 55:45. Watch match 1 on FD, where armada totally dominates, and hbox gets a rest last stock. Just that moment shows that no matter how hard the peach works, if jiggs gets that one uptilt setup, it doesn't matter.

Those were just examples of what I meant, and I certainly think armada vs hbox told enough that it shouldn't simply be 55:45. Too results oriented? I don't think anyone can ignore a solid 5-0.

Also, as far as pikachu vs spacies. Of course its still ridiculously difficult for pikachu, and spacies obviously have a significant advantage. This doesn't change the fact that Axe went through Blunted Object, Raynex, Cyrain, Dashizwiz, and Jman. This might not change the fact that fox>>pikachu, but it can certainly help determine specifics when attempting to translate the +1,+2,+3 system to the 55:45, 60:40, 70:30 system.

I really do like how 3 different people jumped the gun and attacked my question (note, I wasn't even saying matchups DID need to be changed, I simply asked) without even considering the fact that I simply was referring to nuances we may have missed before.

 

[VGmasta]

Hbox vs Armada GF. I mean, iirc last thing I heard was 55:45 jiggs' favor? Honestly, after watching how completely hbox dominated by exploiting the matchup, I find it difficult to say it's 55:45. Watch match 1 on FD, where armada totally dominates, and hbox gets a rest last stock. Just that moment shows that no matter how hard the peach works, if jiggs gets that one uptilt setup, it doesn't matter.

Well here's the real thoughts from Armada about the Jiggs matchup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA-ICReHRk8

 

[CloneHat]

Well here's the real thoughts from Armada about the Jiggs matchup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA-ICReHRk8

That's some really well English right there.

 

[Laijin]

Pikachu for high tiers

 

[ranmaru]

Well you can say you shouldn't go near the ledge when fighting Pikachu but this seems to me like the soccer mentality where the striker is never right unless he scores. If Jman were to fight Axe in the middle and lose people would say he should have camped, when Jman camps near the ledge and loses people would have said he should have stayed in the middle. It's like there is no right answer.

Well, then it seems it might be situational. Why do you say one shouldn't go near the ledge when fighting pikachu? And should you REALLY be near the edge, because in this game we are fighting for positions. (meaning you are closer to the blastzone below, so aren't there chances if you mess up you'd die?) I mean is it safe to be there?

 

[KAOSTAR]

@Kaostar: I was just stating my opinion. You don't need to be an a$$ about it.

If I offended you I apologies, tho Im not actually sorry.

I was only stating a fact. Axe, and N64 primarily did the pikachu MUs. Axe kinda already knew he was ****ing amazingly AZ ****. You could have replaced your name with anybody's other than those two and a few other knowledgeable players and it would have meant exactly the same thing.

Axe/N64 know pikachu MUs, and just because AXE got off doesnt mean that they all of a sudden changed. I really doubt AXE went home and said "wow, beating jman was easier than I thought it would be."

 

[Merkuri]

Well, then it seems it might be situational. Why do you say one shouldn't go near the ledge when fighting pikachu? And should you REALLY be near the edge, because in this game we are fighting for positions. (meaning you are closer to the blastzone below, so aren't there chances if you mess up you'd die?) I mean is it safe to be there?

Well you need to be near the ledge to laser camp, which is what people say Fox should do against low tiers. Often times you see it not working out for fox though.

If I offended you I apologies, tho Im not actually sorry.

I was only stating a fact. Axe, and N64 primarily did the pikachu MUs. Axe kinda already knew he was ****ing amazingly AZ ****. You could have replaced your name with anybody's other than those two and a few other knowledgeable players and it would have meant exactly the same thing.

Axe/N64 know pikachu MUs, and just because AXE got off doesnt mean that they all of a sudden changed. I really doubt AXE went home and said "wow, beating jman was easier than I thought it would be."

Well not necessarily Jman, but I think when looks back at Apex and if he sees this discussion, he'll see beating Blunted Object, Raynex, Cyrain, Dashizwiz, and Jman wasn't as hard as he previously argued the match up was. I mean he 3 stocked Shiz twice.

 

[V3ctorMan]

^ (Kaostar's post) this. for the most part

People tend to forget Axe is one player. Not taking away from any of the other Pikachu players, but it's like Taj with Mewtwo. Taj is the only notable good Mewtwo player, with his success.. and Iori behind him...but that alone hasn't changed Mewtwo's placement too much. Pikachu should stay where he's at.

Pikachu has the same, weaknesses, advantages, etc.. that he's always had. It's not the character. it's the player playing the character. I've trained, grown, taught Axe many things, primarily not with Pikachu, but about alot of the game as he has me. I don't think people acknowledge Axe's amazing ability to bait players, and punish at the maximum level. I'm not trying to be rude here but it's not like oh Axe can do it so it must mean, "anyone" can. Yes anyone can do it indeed, but Axe is the only one that has taken it to such a level at this moment in time. Axe also covers his options extremely well, he takes Pikachu's weaknesses and practiclly, makes them not applicable, since he knows his options very, very well. On top of that his Margin of error is very little, combined with his amazing reaction, spacing, and plain simple awareness define his capabilities. I think people tend to forget that. It's like Oh Axe won with Pikachu vs Jman, Shiz, etc therefore Pikachu is a good character. Not precisely, it's more the player playing the character that everyone forgets. Pikachu needs to remain until proven otherwise. Axe, like Taj is still one player. Like that "exception" player atm

 

[JPOBS]

imo, if hbox/mango are reason enough for people to think jiggs is the best char in the game

Axe is enough for pikachu to be midtier.

edit: oh and that wasnt a shot at you Vman, its a shot at all the whiny babies who think jiggs is so good cuz of 2 (but mostly just hbox) players.

Either jiggs is top 3 and pika is midtier, or jiggs is barely top 5 again, and pika still sucks.

 

[Cosmo!]

pikachu is definitely better than link and likely other characters as well

 

[KAOSTAR]

Edit: Problem is, I think pikachu is better than link and those few other characters. But I have some reserve. Idk if its just because DK, link, mario dont have an AXE or pika is actually just better.

Then the next question is what to do about the tier list. I dont think pika's MUs necessarily support him being better if the chart is considered accurate. But the tier list isnt directly off MUs because it allows for player bias. Meaning, MUs should statistically support what character is most likely to win a tourney, but they dont and probably never will.

In conclusion, Pikachu is considered mid tier based on tourney performance, but imo his MUs on the chart may not support that. The general rule is that it takes two to make a tier list right, but AXEs performance was too strong to ignore pikachus top level metagame. It only makes sense to move pikachu up from where he is currently on the tier list.
/edit

The thing is that I never say never.

but there are alot of other factors that come into play. AXE has much more top level fox/falco practice than they have top level AXE practice.

Watching AXE play you see things that most ppl didnt know pikachu was capable of. It just depends on how familiar you are with that character.

Like when I see taj do things, Im just thinking taj is getting off. Other ppl are like wow I didnt know m2 could do that etc etc.

For starters AXE is an amazing player. After that, he is on the highest level with a character ppl dont have enough experience with. Its easy to get flustered, rattled, make mistakes when your opponent has alot of mystery behind them.

Taj knows falco ***** m2. But I guarantee his is still mad confident when he takes them to FD. Statistics say he shouldnt win, but he does despite the odds.

AXE is no different, except he has a better character, and I think is a little bit better of a player.

AXE just outplayed his opponents and the reason or way he did it is irrelevant. Buts its why he won. The MU was not in his favor but he did things like space, combo, capitalize more efficiently. He made less mistakes and won those matches. Thats like when the US lost in Olympic basketball. No way they were better, but they outplayed the dream team.

 

[V3ctorMan]

yeah I do agree, I can definetely see Pikachu should be moved up, just some of the logic I'm not exactly agreeing with... I agree with MOST of the stuff people are saying.. I just don't like the Oh "Axe' can do it, so it's easy like attitude I guess is what I'm saying... Also... you all should take a gander at this.. Taj made an AMAZING thread.. here -

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=279010

and here is Axe's post since many of the lower tier players came here to discuss...give this a read.. and I'd like all of your insights... Thanks all.

Reading this thread has really had me thinking about a lot of things. The main question in the OP made me think a lot, which was "Why do you play Mewtwo?"

I know Pikachu's not the same, but I can relate to everything said in this thread because he is also a lower tier character with obvious flaws. So why don't I just pick Fox and end up with much greater results? Why don't all Mewtwo mains just pick Sheik and **** twice as hard?

Most of the answers I've heard were simply just because you like the character. Of course, if one of your facorite pokemon is Mewtwo and he is in a video game, you will most likely play him. This is mostly the reason why I picked him as my character to start with, but there are many reasons why I decided to stay with him even after I learned all about advanced moves, the tier list, etc.

One thing that most Melee players cannot wrap their heads around is that a low tier character can be good. I hate how most of the Melee community will just look at the tier list and pick a high/top tier character because they're "good characters".

From my experience, it is much easier to get at a decent skill level with a higher tier character than it is for a lower tier one. You could probably pick a high tier character and be considered a good player within a few months. A low tier character would most likely take even longer. BUT, playing low tier characters has it advantages that many people might not have known of because they've never given those characters a chance. And for those who HAVE given them a chance, they quit the characters much too early and never reach the point at which will give you an advantage.

Yes, playing Pikachu was very hard at first and I did want to stop playing him many times. But all it really required was patience. After playing the little guy for like 2 years, I finally felt like I understood how low tier characters work, and most people who play this game have no idea.

Every character in the game his his/her own strengths, and you must use those strengths to cover up for their weaknesses. The more you play that certain character, the better you will be at using those strengths. After playing Pikachu for so long, I came to a point where people would tell me that my character had no weaknesses. Pikachu definitely does have a lot of weaknesses, but I guess I was able to cover up my weaknesses so well that it seemed so flawless to them. The more I play Pikachu, the less apparent my weaknesses become, thus making it seem like Pikachu is a good character.

People say Fox is a good character. I think this is because he does not have nearly as many weaknesses as Pikachu or Mewtwo does. However, Fox still does have weaknesses. Every character does. It all just depends on how well you are able to cover up those weaknesses with your strengths. The lower tier of the character, the more weaknesses that character has, which means you will have to play those characters for a longer amount of time to learn how to cover those up. When you reach a certain point with your character, it will seem like it's impossible to defeat, no matter which character you choose.

Taj is the prime example of taking his mewtwo to the furthest level. Honestly I feel like it's much harder to fight than almost every Fox/Marth/Sheik/Falco I've ever faught. But Mewtwo is a bad character! Why wouldn't it be harder to fight the high tier characters that so many people play?

I think this is because Taj has played Mewtwo so much and knows his character so well, he is able to cover up so many of his weaknesses with his greatest strengths. However, even as great as his Mewtwo is, it can still get even better than it is now. Everyone can get better with any character. I know V3ctorman is going to prove it too with his Yoshi, and he is already at a very high level with his Mewtwo.



I really feel like not many people have given enough attention to low/bottom tier characters. They can just see the weaknesses that the character has and it is too much to bear for a long period of time. However, once you get past those weaknesses, you can focus on strengths, and I KNOW that every character has strengths that have not been looked into yet, ESPECIALLY for low tiers. I know that I have found so many strenghts that Pikachu has that was unknown, and I know that I have turned him into a great character with my playstyle. It was extremely hard dealing with his weaknesses, but now I have a huge advantage with my character that many people don't even know about. EVERYBODY and EVERY character is capable of this, you just need to have the dedication and patience. If you can be dedicated to your character for long enough, you will find strengths in your character and find that you can make him even more frightening than the best top tiers. Soon enough, I will prove this with Pikachu.

 

[painlord k11]

epic arguements means more posts yay =D . anyways i think the match ups are tallied on how well every charachter does on average. there's also players amazing with pika chu like axe cause he's just special that way but most people suck with pika chu cause he's not the best charachter. plus sometimes these lower tier players have an edge cause other people who use higher tier charachters really dont know how to fight them.

 

[legion598]

what ratio does -3 refer to?

 

[rhan]

-3 is somewhere between a 20:80 to 30:70 disadvantage.

 

[CloneHat]

A lot of characters are being shown to definitely have potential. I think much of the non-diversity of Melee comes from the tier list mindset: many players scoff at using a character low in the list, a list that is in no way complete or fixed.

With people like HungryBox, Taj and Axe single-handedly raising their character's tier placing, I think it's time that players were weened off their tier addiction and instead milked more characters for what they're worth.

 

[Laijin]

YL > Jigglypuff when it comes to that match up.

I will prove it in due time.

 

[TemPesT-]

YL > Jigglypuff when it comes to that match up.

I will prove it in due time.

i have faith, and remeber, drink your ovaltine.

 

[rhan]

YL > Jigglypuff when it comes to that match up.

I will prove it in due time.

It's definitely not that difficult. But I don't think Young Link > Jiggs. I say at best it's even.

Unless all the Young Link players go to RoM3 or Pound 5 and **** HBox's ****. Then I'll be convinced. lmao

 

[KAOSTAR]

YL > Jigglypuff when it comes to that match up.

I will prove it in due time.

LOL. Do what you must!

 

[Strong Badam]

young link can teleport if you trust in the heart of the cards

 

[ShadyMilkman]

young link can teleport if you trust in the heart of the cards

...but can he type while wearing boxing gloves?

 

[Strong Badam]

only i can do that.

 

[Alphicans]

YL > Jigglypuff when it comes to that match up.

I will prove it in due time.

Probably even, but I don't think any jiggs would know how to do the match-up, so it might seem like y.link > jiggs. It's pretty hard for jiggs though regardless, one of her hardest match-ups for sure.

 

[rhan]

Some people don't believe that Alph. But ohhhh just wait. We got dis!

 

[KAOSTAR]

dude shadow balls are completely ineffective and are easy to power shield.

im sorry but that is clearly empirical evidence that yl will lose to puff.

learn to logistics.

 

[VGmasta]

All I know about the Peach vs Ganon matchup is the aerials and the edgeguarding. I feel like Ganon's aerials beat Peach's aerials. But Peach definitely wins the edgeguarding (probably because Peach has the more unpredictable recovery and can pretty much float back to the stage as long as she's not hit out too far.