Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Druggedfox]

Amsah's bair spam against hungrybox was golden, then he stopped bair spamming. Then he lost.... either some silent exchange went on where amsah realized bair spamming was futile, or he quit using a useful tactic =PPPPPPPPPP

 

[KirbyKaze]

^ Amsah could have and probably would have been ***** for all those terribly spaced Bairs and improperly spaced moves that people think was him "playing smart" if Hungrybox was playing to win. But since Hungrybox was screwing around, and openly admits he screwed around heavily vs Amsah, he didn't bother doing any of the 5+ things that would have ***** such a poor strategy.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If sheik can find a reliable way to punish puff's bair/fair then she's golden, this goes for every character.

It's not so much the Bair that ***** Sheik, Sheik can operate around the Bair.

It's the Bair + everything else Puff has + Sheik loses everything that makes her good minus her ranged moves and movement.

 

[Druggedfox]

So first mango doesn't try in tourney, and apparently hbox as well? Hmm, whatever happened to respecting your opponent

 

[KAOSTAR]

So first mango doesn't try in tourney, and apparently hbox as well? Hmm, whatever happened to respecting your opponent

without it being tourney or for money its probably hard to be motivated when you are that good. so you end up playing for fun. being on top probably gets boring.


im sure it wasn't intentional.

 

[rhan]

I'm pretty sure Mango not trying at a tourney happened second in the timeline.

Also Jiggs mains got no respect. Dey just b lyk. **** yo ***** *** character. Imma dew meh, drink my drank n piss on your face.

 

[KirbyKaze]

So first mango doesn't try in tourney, and apparently hbox as well? Hmm, whatever happened to respecting your opponent

IDK ask him yourself. He says the matchup is easy enough to warrant not trying.

Either way I'm not sure why it matters. You're all seeing those Bairs work but let me ask you something. Over half those Bairs are weak hit Bairs or miss entirely and he ends up floating about Puff for half a second on the whiffed ones. Do you honestly think that those weak, close Bairs or whiffed Bairs are useful vs Puff? Do you think he SHOULDN'T have died for those?

Those kinds of Bairs aren't safe vs any character.

 

[Pi]

It's not so much the Bair that ***** Sheik, Sheik can operate around the Bair.

It's the Bair + everything else Puff has + Sheik loses everything that makes her good minus her ranged moves and movement.

The only thing hard about jiggs is her spammable aerials.
Every other move in her arsenal is meh, and has a counter.
Aerials are how she racks up %, sends you off stage, gimps, everything.

What else does puff have? Her smashes are mediocre, her dash attack doesn't set up for combo's, her shield pressure is whatever, her edgeguarding & gimping is good, but usually the reason your off stage in the first place is her aerials. Her grab game on everyone but the spacies is meh.


And it doesn't matter who tries or not, or when, a win is a win and a loss is a loss

 

[KirbyKaze]

The only thing hard about jiggs is her spammable aerials.

Her immunity to gimps, combos, tech chasing, and edgeguarding make her difficult by cutting down damage potential immensely. The fact that her duck beats grabs is also hilariously amazing because it cuts down the most common answer to crouch spam. Meanwhile, she still retains the ability to death combo you, or gimp you, or kill you at low percents, etc.

The punishment disparity can be difficult to overcome. Functioning largely without a grab can also be difficult.

Every other move in her arsenal is meh, and has a counter.
Aerials are how she racks up %, sends you off stage, gimps, everything.

Even if her aerials are her best feature, and form the basis of her bread & butter game, that doesn't mean the rest of her character is "meh". Many of her traits are fantastic. If Jigglypuff didn't have her duck, her Rest, her B-throw, and her F-smash, I assure you Sheik would hard counter her like you wouldn't believe. It's the combination of a whole lot of her gay stuff that makes her hard for Sheik. Not just aerial spam.

What else does puff have? Her smashes are mediocre, her dash attack doesn't set up for combo's, her shield pressure is whatever, her edgeguarding & gimping is good, but usually the reason your off stage in the first place is her aerials. Her grab game on everyone but the spacies is meh.

Puff's F-smash is beastly when it hits (duck --> F-smash vs whiffed move or CC --> F-smash is very underrated). It can also be used for edgeguarding to great effect.

Her dash attack doesn't need to setup for combos because it's a combo finisher and mainly used for sneaking under retreat aerials when not used to end a combo or tech chase.

Her shield pressure is awesome, you can't punish anything she does to your shield while she has the ability to attack it pretty much freely. On a character like Sheik, she can literally just duck in front of her and wait for Sheik to do anything and then go for a punish on it. That's amazingly good LOL. I wish I could sit in front of my opponent at various ranges and be safe from shield grabs, aerials OoS, U-smash OoS, and pretty much everything you can think of LOL.

Her throw game is situationally good. D-throw onstage can be very, very nasty if you can force Sheik to touch a platform (tech chase Rest or tech chasing with aerials can be gay). If Sheik DIs into the throw, she can just be combo'd outright. Near the edge both her F-throw and B-throw are excellent for setting up edgeguards or gimps.

Also, U-tilt. U-tilt is pretty good.

 

[Pi]

I definitely forgot about her duck.
Probably because I play samus.

Puff does throw a wrench in sheik's standard style of play, just...as a character. And as with all her matchups, puff gets punished far less for her mistakes than the other way around.

Heh, when I think about it I think samus has a better time vs. puff than sheik >=)
I think I can even grab a ducking puff.

 

[Druggedfox]

I'm pretty sure Mango not trying at a tourney happened second in the timeline.

Also Jiggs mains got no respect. Dey just b lyk. **** yo ***** *** character. Imma dew meh, drink my drank n piss on your face.

Maybe major tourney... I'm counting all those Cali tourneys where mango went falcon fox and mario xDDDD

Also, some sheik player needs to downsmash all jiggs' crouches, and then laugh as she eats 1/3 stock of damage =D =D =D

 

[Blistering Speed]

I can't get over how much people still don't know about Puff.

To keep this related to matchups, Jiggs loses to Fox, goes even with Falco, beats everyone else.

 

[Merkuri]

Also, some sheik player needs to downsmash all jiggs' crouches, and then laugh as she eats 1/3 stock of damage =D =D =D

Actually Shiek's Dsmash isn't safe on Jigs Shield. Shiek can be rest for it. Mango did it again and again to Mew2king at Apex teams GF, it's a dumb tactic to try on Puff.

 

[cablepuff]

Actually Shiek's Dsmash isn't safe on Jigs Shield. Shiek can be rest for it. Mango did it again and again to Mew2king at Apex teams GF, it's a dumb tactic to try on Puff.

i would agree on this one. down tilt is a lot better option.

 

[unknown522]

The only thing hard about jiggs is her spammable aerials.
Every other move in her arsenal is meh, and has a counter.
Aerials are how she racks up %, sends you off stage, gimps, everything.

What else does puff have? Her smashes are mediocre, her dash attack doesn't set up for combo's, her shield pressure is whatever, her edgeguarding & gimping is good, but usually the reason your off stage in the first place is her aerials. Her grab game on everyone but the spacies is meh.


And it doesn't matter who tries or not, or when, a win is a win and a loss is a loss

have you not seen how ridiculous her b-throw is? and how powerful her f-smash is?

 

[cablepuff]

I can't get over how much people still don't know about Puff.

To keep this related to matchups, Jiggs loses to Fox, goes even with Falco, beats everyone else.

i would settle for jiggs beating sheik but i think sheik does better on jiggly than falco imho.

fox 55 to 45 jiggly.
Sheik 45 to 55 jiggly.

jiggly 60 + everyone else minus sheik and fox.

 

[Archangel]

I definitely forgot about her duck.
Probably because I play samus.

Puff does throw a wrench in sheik's standard style of play, just...as a character. And as with all her matchups, puff gets punished far less for her mistakes than the other way around.

Heh, when I think about it I think samus has a better time vs. puff than sheik >=)
I think I can even grab a ducking puff.

Samus vs Puff isn't all that bad imo. It can be close as seen below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRqjXHP4QaE

It can also be horrible though as seen below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih1uf82YPrE

 

[KAOSTAR]

have you not seen how ridiculous her b-throw is? and how powerful her f-smash is?

of course they have but that would be contrary to the point they were trying to prove. lol

learn2argue-with out back throw then her throw game is weak except on space animals. welcome to smashboards.com

 

[Blistering Speed]

Samus vs Puff is hideous, as is Sheik vs Puff (by Sheik standards anyway).

With Falco's lasers (though Puff is brilliant at moving through them, lasers are still ********), shine, unique ability to legitimately combo Puff and fantastic aerial game, he can make it an even matchup IMO.

 

[rhan]

Jiggs does not 60 - 40 everyone except SHeik and Fox. That's just ********... -_-

 

[Druggedfox]

Actually Shiek's Dsmash isn't safe on Jigs Shield. Shiek can be rest for it. Mango did it again and again to Mew2king at Apex teams GF, it's a dumb tactic to try on Puff.

I'm confused if I'm ever supposed to assume you actually read what I post... You even quoted me and couldn't address my post correctly.

I said "Also, some sheik player needs to downsmash all jiggs' crouches". I don't see "shield" anywhere in that statement. Not to mention, this is about punishing habits. If you notice a jiggs continuously attempting to crouch in case of grabs (hungrybox lololol) downsmash the crouch once to scare them away from doing it. If they start trying to shield, wait for the shield and grab etc etc.

I'm hardly saying this is some 100% fullproof way to beat jiggs, but it amazes me that you can so effectively misread posts

 

[KAOSTAR]

merkuri is very talented @ effectively misreading posts lol.

 

[The Star King]

The risk is much bigger than the reward though. If you get a grab, or D-Smash, good job, you give Puff like 15-30%. Predict incorrectly, and you get rested.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hey DruggedFox did you know that at certain percents Puff can CC + DI away from Sheik's D-smash to only eat 1-2 hits of it and then get a free F-smash or even Rest if they react super fast? :D

Are you also aware that she can actually shield in between the D-smash hits if she's not knocked over to stop the excess damage at super low percents?

 

[Druggedfox]

Hey KK, how gay is jiggs? :D

Though to be fair, I did mean dsmash at percentages where CC means she gets knocked over.

Regardless, what do you think puff sheik should be then, KK? I doubt our opinions differ tooo greatly as I already opted for 60-40 =P

@ShootingStar, reaction time and smart decisions, rather than predictions. Choose to dsmash at times when if they shield one of the hits will shield poke, and if they CC their percentages mean they'll be hit into the ground. I didn't mean this as some fullproof anti jiggs measure, I simply mean that it can be incredibly useful way to get free % on jiggs. In a matchup where you're fighting a character as mobile as jiggs, I'd take all the extra damage I can get.

In addition, I even noted that you would never grab until you actually see jiggs' shield, which significantly decreases any sort of risk.

Another note: people should learn the spacing for non JC grabs hitting jiggs during her crouch. I was playing jiggs for fun against someone who wasn't too consistent with JC grabs, and the majority of the time I tried crouching under their grab, I got grabbed anyway. With correct spacing, this can be done with several characters, and stops jiggs from happily crouching under a character's entire grab game. Food for thought, unless I'm missing something.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The ability to grab Jigglypuff out of her duck is largely attributed to the fact that she shifts when she's in her prolonged crouch animation and gains some extra height from it. In her initial duck, it's impossible to grab her with a lot of dash grabs, including important ones like Sheik and Marth. It has little to do with spacing.

Getting extra damage from D-smash is nice on Puff but if she's at the percent where D-smash knocks her over you're getting two hits at most. Probably only one.

As for D-smashing their block, no, that's a terrible idea unless their shield is tiny. If their shield holds vs the D-smash they get a free Fair. Since it's difficult to pressure Puff into shield in the first place with Sheik, their shield will not usually be tiny enough for this to be a really good strategy. I'm also sure we could find something better or safer for poking shields if we're going to go that route.

Grabbing when they shield is nice. Just be careful they don't Sidestep or WD down OoS or jump OoS when you go for your grab. I've had that happen a few times and it really sucks when it does.

edit: I don't care about ratios, I think pretty much everyone in this topic has no idea what they're talking about, especially regarding Sheik at high level.

 

[Dark Sonic]

If Jiggs jumps OoS she might be able to dodge grabs because she conveniently goes into the crouch animation before leaving the ground.

She'll probably get grabbed anyway because grab hitboxes linger around for a bit but....in theory it's possible.

I wanna try it

 

[The Good Doctor]

If Jiggs jumps OoS she might be able to dodge grabs because she conveniently goes into the crouch animation before leaving the ground.

She'll probably get grabbed anyway because grab hitboxes linger around for a bit but....in theory it's possible.

I wanna try it

I'm thinking Puff would get grabbed.

 

[Druggedfox]

Eh people need to just quit trying to grab puff unless it's at least semi-guaranteed, and it'll stop them from stupidly losing a stock or more a match.

Ahaha that'd be funny darksonic, something tells me no though =/

Edit: Why post in a thread made with the purpose of making ratios for matchups, and heavily based on discussion of said matchups, if you neither care for the ratios nor the discussion

 

[dch111]

If Jiggs jumps OoS she might be able to dodge grabs because she conveniently goes into the crouch animation before leaving the ground.

She'll probably get grabbed anyway because grab hitboxes linger around for a bit but....in theory it's possible.

I wanna try it

Is that what happens here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJIkk3dJ6P0#t=0m19s


Edit: some pics from the actual game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4xTnHEktCI&feature=related#t=2m48s)


After the Dair, Fox tries to grab...

...Mango jumps

Puff first goes into a crouch...

...then emerges from the screen LOL

Fox looks pretty pissed

 

[Merkuri]

I'm confused if I'm ever supposed to assume you actually read what I post... You even quoted me and couldn't address my post correctly.

I said "Also, some sheik player needs to downsmash all jiggs' crouches". I don't see "shield" anywhere in that statement. Not to mention, this is about punishing habits. If you notice a jiggs continuously attempting to crouch in case of grabs (hungrybox lololol) downsmash the crouch once to scare them away from doing it. If they start trying to shield, wait for the shield and grab etc etc.

I'm hardly saying this is some 100% fullproof way to beat jiggs, but it amazes me that you can so effectively misread posts

Lol I didn't think I had to spell it out for you, for you to get the point. In short Dsmashing against Jigs is ********.

 

[Pi]

have you not seen how ridiculous her b-throw is? and how powerful her f-smash is?

Bthrow sets up for gimps that -can- be worked around, and edgeguards that...maybe can't be.
I was in samus mindset, where Bthrow is just an annoyance.
And Fsmash is still a smash move, so it's whatever.

[edit]
aw man my title is pretty hyper

 

[rhan]

Bthrow sets up for gimps that -can- be worked around, and edgeguards that...maybe can't be.
I was in samus mindset, where Bthrow is just an annoyance.
And Fsmash is still a smash move, so it's whatever.

[edit]
aw man my title is pretty hyper

How'd you get that title?

Also those Jiggs screenshots are hilarious.

 

[Winston]

Standing grabs are only out for like 2 frames, so I'm sure it's possible. Then again, the jump animation for jigglypuff is probably only a couple frames also, so I dunno how practical it is.

 

[Blistering Speed]

It'll just happen occasionally by accident. Of course it's not practical.

 

[mhenlo]

unless you're mango

 

[Jimbo Slice]

Everything is practical when you're mango. It sounds like d smashing puff is asking to get punished.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Neither is the example shown, since it was on the wing on Corneria.

 

[Druggedfox]

Ahaha this has gotten so off track. I'm going to throw some numbers out there to perhaps spark discussion (not necessarily my actual opinion on the matchups).

Ganon vs

Puff- 55:45 puff's favor
Fox- 60:40 fox's favor
Falco- 60:40 falco's favor (unless you're Linguini, in which case it turns into 100:0 )
Marth- 50:50 (cuz everyone's a marth hater)
Sheik- 65:35 sheik's favor
Peach- 55:45 peach's favor (unless you're pink shinobi on KJ64 )
ICs- 65:35 ganon's favor
Falcon- 55:45 falcon's favor
Ganondorf- 100:0 ganon's favor (ganon ALWAYS wins)

Once again, no point in telling me I'm wrong because these aren't precisely what I think anyway. Instead, if anyone wants to put opinions etc to spark discussion, this thread can pick up in a direction that actually allows this to get done?

If not, back to discussing jiggs' kewl crouch animation before she jumps =P

 

[Laijin]

Gannon vs Sheik is like 55-45 dood. Sheik.

Ganon can chain throw sheik and kill her easily.