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KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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Nov 18, 2007
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Marth's a special case because his edgeguarding on Sheik sucks because she has too many tricks for Marth to be able to hit his ideal punish (Tipper F-smash) and everything else can be DIed really hard or escaped.

Marth has to leave his special range because of how Sheik's range and body contortions work in relation to his own range. Sheik's legs are long so if he aims his move to beat Sheik's move preemptively (which he kind of has to because his moves are slower) and Sheik doesn't do a move, he's open. If he swings a move to hit Sheik because he thinks she won't do a move and she does, he'll probably trade or get hit first because of how he has to adjust his spacing to compensate for her slender body.

This is all stuff I've talked about before and don't feel like going over it again.

edit: Just say Marth Sheik is even or like 55-45, icy, I don't even care at this point.
 

Merkuri

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
1,860
Someone with more technical knowledge would be nice, but it's certainly possible. I've personally been able to, on pure reaction, switch directions of the waveshine when they CC. So one time they SDI and go max distance, the next they go so short they end up behind me, so I just start reverse waveshining.

The main point on samus vs spacies is that she is forced to play an aggressive role. Yes, her defense game is good; I'm unsure as to why that's such a big deal when she is forced on the offensive. I hope it's not vague for you when I say: camping. Fox and falco can both force samus to approach, nullifying many aspects of her game which boil down to playing defensive.

I agree, she has good horizontal survivability. Unfortunately for samus, this isn't so useful when fox has an upsmash and a u-air, and falco has a downtilt and a dair. I agree, she's hard to combo vertically: incidentally, falco's dair also forces samus to tech. I agree, she's not easy to edgeguard: luckily, fox can shine her out of grapples, and use invincibility on the ledge to hit her out of up-b; luckily, falco has lasers to stop her recovery horizontally, and a dair to hit her out of up-b and grapple.
Spacies really don't have a good camping game vs Samus. Especially Fox, Fox can only camp from far range, if he camps from mid or close range he risks taking a charge shot. The same applies for Samus, cuz while hitting him with a charge shot while he lasers is more difficult, Wavedash tilts beats repeated lasers. A Smart Samus really doesn't have to play defensive against Spacies, watch Hugs vs Lovage or Lucky.

As for Shiek vs Marth, and no good Marths on the same level as Shieks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHPiv90eQDc&feature=related
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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As far as marth goes. He is still amazing. But what has happened over the years is that players have really learned to punish marth for poorly spaced fairs/nairs and fsmashes on the fly. PPl are just more comfortable inside marths bubble and are just better at applying pressure on him.

Puff imo is the new marth. Basically marth was dominant and then spacies (and everyone even m2 lol) adapted. because of the technical depth of spacies they were able to change more rapidly and drastically. Marth will come back around and puff will fall.
------------------------------------------
Overall Marth could be a -2 for m2, but its one of those things that I dont think anyone would try to prove. Marth players have to change the way that they play because m2 isnt the avg floaty.

Its borderline tho. +3 or high end of +2 for marth imho.
How come Mewtwo's matchup with Marth is so bad? I mean, Marth doesn't really have any up kills so mewtwo's floatiness can be more of a good thing than a bad. Marth is floaty and Mewtwo's main finishers are all upward, so Marth could get KO'd pretty easy. Also Marth is a light weight so for Mewtwo lacking power isn't that bad against Marth cause you dont need it as much. Also Mewtwo being so large would have to force Marth to space a lot and it would be hard for Marth to sweetspot his attacks.:confused:
Well its really hard for me to say. I know that Marth can **** m2 and have do some decent combo damage if he is able to climb platforms at lower percent. Hitting mid to high percents makes it very hard to combo m2 and since m2 is soooo **** he can DI every off stage and return safely.

Marths bread butter kinda thing is his grab range. Its pretty good. M2 wants to shield the fair and get away so if marth. Basic mixups between fthrow and downthrow into fsmash. If you can make m2 react incorrectly that fsmash is free and could be a tipper pretty easily.

Fair doesnt kill all that well and on DL not until close to 200 percent
Mewtwo is light, so Marth really doesn't need to get tippers to kill.
Fair>every move Mewtwo has.
Mewtwo can't combo or techchase Marth.
Etc.
m2 combos marth more consistntely than marth combos m2. Marth has to get his kill early or it gets really hard especially on DL. Marth extending his hurtbox whne he attacks helps m2s short range on attacks by quite a bit.

dtilt>fair>uair is solid. M2 can apply alot of offstage pressure to marth as well and has a projectile and good ground movement.

Marth can catch m2 pretty good just running around but as soon as he Fsmashes or jumps then m2 can get away by shielding or just marth being slower in the air.
Yeah but I think the matchup is overall one of Mewtwo's better matchups, along with Peach. Plus there about the same weight.
Weight has nothing to do with upthrow. Its fall speed only.

if I were to rank his worsts Fox, falcon, falco, marth.

his best MU is probably pichu lol but if I were to choose one I would want to fight a bowser. I feel like m2 has a solid +2 adv and not just a slight.
 

dch111

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
472
what?

10wuts
He's obviously somewhat new to the scene. To address some points...

So Sheik is basically one of those characters that can pretty much get an easy advantage to the Heavy, fastfalling, big ppl?
Assuming this was in response to preceding posts, Marth is not heavy or fastfalling. KK's response answers your main question, though.

Not exactly, light characters such as Pichu and Puff would probably have a hard time, since they need to be at a bigger amount of damage to be KO'd. I'm also talking about spacies, falcon, and characters like that.
Light characters don't have a hard time against heavy characters, which I guess is unintuitive given the nature of real life fighting. This is due to the unique design of smash in which heavy characters don't last that long anyway due to gimps and combos. And seemingly puny characters have some of the strongest attacks (see Puff's down+B).

Not all fastfallers are heavy, and vice versa. Falco and Fox are pretty light. They don't fall into the category you mentioned earlier.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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Nov 18, 2007
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Spiral Mountain
Big, "strong" characters are big targets with slow moves and smash on the whole didn't really decide to balance them in any way. Being fast and mobile is too important in this game.

You can't really make the argument that Ganon and Bowser do more damage than a light, fast character like Sheik or Fox because of the combo potential disparity. Similarly, you can't say they have better KO potential because of the damage output disparity and edgeguarding made possibly by their mobility.

The fat characters, on the whole, got shafted. That's really all there is to it.
 

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
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Spacies really don't have a good camping game vs Samus. Especially Fox, Fox can only camp from far range, if he camps from mid or close range he risks taking a charge shot. The same applies for Samus, cuz while hitting him with a charge shot while he lasers is more difficult, Wavedash tilts beats repeated lasers. A Smart Samus really doesn't have to play defensive against Spacies, watch Hugs vs Lovage or Lucky.

As for Shiek vs Marth, and no good Marths on the same level as Shieks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHPiv90eQDc&feature=related
LOL I'm sorry but, why would you ever camp at midrange? I thought camping implied far range. Wavedash tilts beats lasers? If I'm one side of FD, and the samus is on the other, I'm pretty sure I will win a camping war without wavedash tilts hitting me. Samus bans FD? I have dreamland and pokemon stadium left to go to...

Also, aren't lucky and lovage fairly aggressive foxes? How about jman vs a samus player... that'd be a much better example of camping.

I do like the example of m2k vs over... it's not like m2k played godawful in that match, nope not at all. To me, that's almost as bad as posting the MM between hbox and m2k from back in the day where hbox gets a 4 stock on m2k, then saying jiggs>fox. I'd rather watch amsah vs m2k as an example match. What you just did is like showing me strawhat dahean vs SS to say falcon ***** marth, and then forget that strawhat annihilated darkrain just before that.
 

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
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Hugs definitely made an intelligent post with that. I only have one issue with it. He says that while the fox is camping, the samus is analyzing his patterns, and thus has an easier time getting the KO. He definitely has a point in his post overall but I ask you, hugs, or anyone else: wouldn't a smart fox be analyzing the samus while camping? While he's camping, it should give him time to analyze how the samus approaches, what the samus tries to take advantage of, etc.

"Who's going to have an easier time getting that KO move? The samus who has spent the entire match analyzing the fox, but distracted because she's pressured to approach asap, or the fox who is calmly camping the whole time and observing the samus' approach?" That's my little variation on a theme by Hugs.

I definitely take into consideration that post, and its highly valid, but it seems he's never fought a fox who both camped AND analyzed his approach. His argument makes it seem that the fox is mindlessly camping, while he is far out analyzing his opponent throughout the match. I'm not try to say my word is gospel, but you should consider a major argument Hugo skimmed over, for w/e reason.
 

Merkuri

Smash Lord
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Apr 1, 2010
Messages
1,860
LOL I'm sorry but, why would you ever camp at midrange?

I'm not sure if you're feigning ignorance to help your argument but spacies camp at mid range all the time.

I thought camping implied far range. Wavedash tilts beats lasers? If I'm one side of FD, and the samus is on the other, I'm pretty sure I will win a camping war without wavedash tilts hitting me. Samus bans FD? I have dreamland and pokemon stadium left to go to...

Again this applied to camping at mid range, this obviously doesn't apply if you want to run from side to side camping. Such a tactic isn't particularly effective or ineffective against Samus. She has to deal with it the same a character like Sheik would, which isn't too big a mountain to overcome. Fox will always be towards the edge which is exactly where he doesn't want to be given how easy he is to edge guard.

Also, aren't lucky and lovage fairly aggressive foxes? How about jman vs a samus player... that'd be a much better example of camping.
Both Lucky and Lovage have tried, being extremely aggressive, camping, passive aggressive, whatever it takes and they still fail. Neither player has ever taken a set form Hugs in tournament. Lucky and Lovage probably have more Samus practice than any Fox pros in the country, I doubt they are simply playing the match up wrong.

I do like the example of m2k vs over... it's not like m2k played godawful in that match, nope not at all.

How was he playing badly? You frown upon general blanket statements and you do the same thing. I think M2k was playing well, it only looks like he was playing badly because of how bad Marth gets ***** against a Shiek who actually knows what she is doing. Your notion that M2k played god awful that match and then absolutely fine for the rest of the tournament including the rest of that set is baseless.

To me, that's almost as bad as posting the MM between hbox and m2k from back in the day where hbox gets a 4 stock on m2k, then saying jiggs>fox. I'd rather watch amsah vs m2k as an example match. What you just did is like showing me strawhat dahean vs SS to say falcon ***** marth, and then forget that strawhat annihilated darkrain just before that.
Lol what? Why would M2k vs Amsah be a better example than Over vs M2k. Especially when the gap between over and m2k is much bigger than the one being between m2k vs Amsah. As for Strawhat vs Darkrain that match was a pools match where both players were guaranteed to make it out and not get first seed. The match meant nothing, it didn't matter.
 

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
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First, I'm not sure if you're feigning ignorance but just because foxes camp at midrange all the time doesn't mean that it's a good tactic. Second, no offense, but putting lucky and lovage in the same comparison makes no sense. Lucky is significantly better, and him losing to hugs actually means something: hugs knows the matchup better, or hugs is a better player. Oh, btw, sheik is a significantly faster character than samus overall, and when she gets a hit on fox, it's far easier to start punishing than if samus does. Samus and sheik dealing with camping is hardly comparable.

M2K vs amsah would be better because M2K was playing better in those matches, and according to m2k himself he played terrible against over. I'll even quote m2k: "My Marth beat him both friendlies we played and johns or not my marth was REALLY really off this game so I switched to Fox (I do not like Fox vs Sheik but he is bad vs Fox) to win." Even if he is exaggerating, it's clear what his opinion of his play was.

Here, just for you I'll watch the match and point out how m2k was playing badly (the reason I didn't do this, is because it would require going through an entire match, not worth my time):

M2K's first stock: His spacing is plain terrible. I counted 4 times he straight up stayed within sheik's range on either her fair or bair, without having a move already out. Sheik's moves comes out faster, so someone playing well would hardly fall into a range he can't win in 4 times in the same stock. Additionally, he fell for the same trick twice, consecutively. He simply held his shield up while overtriforce ran in and grabbed. The first time he might not have been expecting it, but at that point normally he'd be alerted to it. The second time he found himself in the same position, he could have done any number of non risky things to avoid it. M2K playing well, or even on his average level, wouldn't make that many spacing errors.

M2K's second stock: M2K messed up a crucial edgeguard, misjudging the spacing/timing on a tipper. To make things much easier, he could have daired for the kill. Once again, m2k is one of the best players about making the right move to kill (look at uptilt-->dair which he essentially coined) and I hardly think he would make that mistake on a normal day. That stock he literally also ran straight at overtriforce twice, and got hit both times. There was no prior situation which might cause him to do that, no previous dashdancing, or any attempts to space aerials. He literally ran straight at overtriforce twice, and got punished for it. Hmm, one of the top 5 players in the world... is that sheik beating marth in the matchup, or is that m2k being off and misjudging the same sitaution multiple times.

I would go one, but that's already wasted enough time. That's also only during the first 2 stock, he still has 2 stock of mistakes and bad plays to go through. Honestly, anyone who watches that match and says "m2k played well" has no idea what they're talking about. Every comment I made was just at a glance going through the first two stock, without rewatching anything. If I can notice that just at a glance, I hope any competent smasher could see that m2k wasn't playing even close to his standard level.

If that's not enough proof for you, watch the match yourself, and actually pay attention to details. Might I add, I never even suggested m2k played fine for the rest of the tournament, but you seem to think I did. I would have to go back and actually pay attention to specific matches to see if m2k played well overall or not. Regardless, it's clear he played particularly badly that match.
 

MalwareDie

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
66
Merkuri is terrible. Any random scrub could watch that match and tell you that M2K was terrible. Says a lot about Merkuri.
 

Pi

Smash Hero
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Hugs' thoughts on camping:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9567741&postcount=1818

I'm not trying to say that Hugs' word is gospel, but you should consider what he's saying.


Hugs definitely made an intelligent post with that. I only have one issue with it. He says that while the fox is camping, the samus is analyzing his patterns, and thus has an easier time getting the KO. He definitely has a point in his post overall but I ask you, hugs, or anyone else: wouldn't a smart fox be analyzing the samus while camping? While he's camping, it should give him time to analyze how the samus approaches, what the samus tries to take advantage of, etc.

"Who's going to have an easier time getting that KO move? The samus who has spent the entire match analyzing the fox, but distracted because she's pressured to approach asap, or the fox who is calmly camping the whole time and observing the samus' approach?" That's my little variation on a theme by Hugs.

I definitely take into consideration that post, and its highly valid, but it seems he's never fought a fox who both camped AND analyzed his approach. His argument makes it seem that the fox is mindlessly camping, while he is far out analyzing his opponent throughout the match. I'm not try to say my word is gospel, but you should consider a major argument Hugo skimmed over, for w/e reason.
If the samus is memorizing patterns, then she's looking for opportunities to get the hit in.
Let's say the fox is jumping/double jumping, and that's the pattern you pick up on. You attack that jump. The fox cannot pick up on this pattern until after he's been hit by it, or the samus has whiffed. Even then there is no guarantee that the samus actually picked up on that pattern, or if she just threw out that nair and got lucky. The samus on the other hand, is fairly certain (or at least has some level of confidence) that the fox is going to jump, because that's what he's been doing.

Aside from this, homing missiles & smash missiles are safe ways to eliminate options from the fox, forcing options that you can cover. While the fox is camping, you can shoot missiles and see how he responds to those.

Laser camping isn't even an issue, I'm assuming the fox is 'camping' in the way M2K 'camped' armada on BF.

Camping in general doesn't work, lasers don't 'force' a response in a smart player, they rack up damage really slowly and offer vulnerabilities which can be exploited from half a map away. And any other form of camping only turns a profit if your opponent is impatient. But seeing as how they are playing samus, I don't think that'll happen.

The best way for a fox to play the matchup, is to play it smart, I've never had more problems from a fox than when they play the matchup safe & smart.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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@knihT-just saying but anticipation is a very active part of smash.

Your part about the fox jump/double jumping etc.... and samus punishing the jump.

Im pretty sure thats being predictable especially at top level.

I think its possible fox would expect samus to punish the jump and punish the punish instead.

Or what if samus expects fox to expect her to punish and punishes the punish.

Keep going deeper and deeper and there you have perfect indefinite looping smash theory.
 

HugS™

Smash Lord
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I have to commend Druggedfox on his ability to make his case. Hell, he may even have a clearer view on all of this than I do, if only because his opinion isn't clouded by a bias created from immense success in the match up. However, he certainly lacks a view as experienced as my own.

I'm hoping to play against Jman sometime soon. The ultimate camping fox vs the ultimate fox slaying Samus. The only problem I'd see with this eventual meeting being used as proof of the effectiveness of camping is that Jman is a better player than I am. His superior skills may be confused with the idea that his strategy was the winning factor.

Nonetheless, I'll be honest about my findings should I lose to him, and be able to say whether it was his camping, or his skills, that led to my demise.

Or I can win and possibly end this debate should I feel he was playing fine.

And to answer your question Drugged fox, I do believe the fox will analyze Samus's approach options and patterns. However, I feel a proactive approach to discovering these patterns would be far more effective than a passive approach. The samus would be more proactive in discovering these patterns than a fox would in a camping situation.

It's quite obvious that a camping strategy is less popular and less effective than other strategies. And I believe it is because of this: it doesn't allow you to be as effective in analyzing patterns as a strategy that mixes in more approaches than it does retreats. And I don't believe samus is limited enough for a fox to win with its limited learning.
 

Pi

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@knihT-just saying but anticipation is a very active part of smash.

Your part about the fox jump/double jumping etc.... and samus punishing the jump.

Im pretty sure thats being predictable especially at top level.

I think its possible fox would expect samus to punish the jump and punish the punish instead.

Or what if samus expects fox to expect her to punish and punishes the punish.

Keep going deeper and deeper and there you have perfect indefinite looping smash theory.
I try to stay away from that 'perfect indefinite looping' stuff...

In theory yes, you could guess my guess which was a guess of you guessing my guess, divide by 0, and cause the apocalypse, but for sanity's sake, let's keep inception out of this and stay 1 layer deep.

One way or another it comes down to you assuming that someone is going to do something, but if you acknowledge that patterns are something to look for at all you have to give some merit to picking up on, and punishing them.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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I think 1 layer deep doesnt give ppl enough credit lol. 2 layers is fine.

2 layers still account for things such as baiting. I do this expecting them to punish. They were reading my actions to punish and when they go for the punish I punish.
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
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Jan 2, 2005
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People generally overrate spacies' matchups terribly, of course. Thats part of the reason why Samus' status in the matchup looks so odd; when you compare it to the spacies' other matchups, which are tipped in their favor almost comically in most cases, it looks like an outlier.

As far as marth goes. He is still amazing. But what has happened over the years is that players have really learned to punish marth for poorly spaced fairs/nairs and fsmashes on the fly. PPl are just more comfortable inside marths bubble and are just better at applying pressure on him.

Puff imo is the new marth. Basically marth was dominant and then spacies (and everyone even m2 lol) adapted. because of the technical depth of spacies they were able to change more rapidly and drastically. Marth will come back around and puff will fall.
------------------------------------------
Overall Marth could be a -2 for m2, but its one of those things that I dont think anyone would try to prove. Marth players have to change the way that they play because m2 isnt the avg floaty.

Its borderline tho. +3 or high end of +2 for marth imho.

Well its really hard for me to say. I know that Marth can **** m2 and have do some decent combo damage if he is able to climb platforms at lower percent. Hitting mid to high percents makes it very hard to combo m2 and since m2 is soooo **** he can DI every off stage and return safely.

Marths bread butter kinda thing is his grab range. Its pretty good. M2 wants to shield the fair and get away so if marth. Basic mixups between fthrow and downthrow into fsmash. If you can make m2 react incorrectly that fsmash is free and could be a tipper pretty easily.

Fair doesnt kill all that well and on DL not until close to 200 percent

m2 combos marth more consistntely than marth combos m2. Marth has to get his kill early or it gets really hard especially on DL. Marth extending his hurtbox whne he attacks helps m2s short range on attacks by quite a bit.

dtilt>fair>uair is solid. M2 can apply alot of offstage pressure to marth as well and has a projectile and good ground movement.

Marth can catch m2 pretty good just running around but as soon as he Fsmashes or jumps then m2 can get away by shielding or just marth being slower in the air.
I'm not gonna lie, a few months ago I would have just skipped right past this post. But between Iori winning tournaments, Taj wrecking at APEX, and whatnot, I am legitimately worried about the M2 matchup now lol.

M2s movin' on up. :laugh:
 

Pi

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I think 1 layer deep doesnt give ppl enough credit lol. 2 layers is fine.

2 layers still account for things such as baiting. I do this expecting them to punish. They were reading my actions to punish and when they go for the punish I punish.
but if we're judging matchups of equally skilled players...
you do 2 layers
your opponent does 2 layers

I use to get punished upon landing
so I started wavelanding instead, got punishes off for a bit
then my opponent started chasing my wavelands

I think that's how things normally progress.

Let's say you fight an opponent that you've never fought before. You can't just start baiting, you have to find out what he likes, then you put that on your hook and cast it out. But in order to find out, you have to try some different things and see how he responds to them. Or rather, pick up on how you're being punished. Then you can start adding layers, but at that point it's really only 1 layer deeper than the layer both you and your opponent have evolved into.

er...example
1.You waveland off a platform, catch him with an attack.
2.You try it again, he wavedashes back into a charged Fsmash.
3.You waveland off the platform again, he wavedashes back into a charged fsmash, you waveland away, and punish the missed Fsmash.

On layers 1 & 3, you win. On layers 2 (and potentially 4), he wins.

Sure, you could try to skip a layer, but at that point it's strictly guessing. Your opponent has offered no indication that he's going to perform the action to counter your action. Your initial action may still be effective.


........this whole post looks stupid
I'm going to bed
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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@Crimsonblur-no doubt. Its like I been sayin the whole time. M2 is underrated, his true potential is just starting to shine. I promise you there is more to come. But he still sucks tho, but M2 vs X will be a MU that ppl are gonna have to learn or get that *** whooped. The next level will be more precise edgeguarding offstage leading for more gimps and sexier looking kills.

knihT-Na man. Me doing something 1, and then you doing something 2, and me expecting 2 so I do 3 and you expecting 3 so you do 4 is a bit too far lol.

what really happens is that 3 becomes the new 1. Once its been conditioned it. You expect certain things or a base style from each character(character conditioning) and those can be used to start baiting early on b4 player conditioning occurs.

Its the part where you are pretty sure he is gonna do X or Y basically 1 or 3. He should be mixing it up so you pretty much have to guess where to start once they have shown both options.

you shouldnt assume your opponent knows what you are doing until they prove that they are smart and can catch on. Also on some occasions where somebody is forced to "guess" players will cover both option if they can.
 

Pi

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@Crimsonblur-no doubt. Its like I been sayin the whole time. M2 is underrated, his true potential is just starting to shine. I promise you there is more to come. But he still sucks tho, but M2 vs X will be a MU that ppl are gonna have to learn or get that *** whooped. The next level will be more precise edgeguarding offstage leading for more gimps and sexier looking kills.

knihT-Na man. Me doing something 1, and then you doing something 2, and me expecting 2 so I do 3 and you expecting 3 so you do 4 is a bit too far lol.

what really happens is that 3 becomes the new 1. Once its been conditioned it. You expect certain things or a base style from each character(character conditioning) and those can be used to start baiting early on b4 player conditioning occurs. -That's pretty much when I meant when I said "Then you can start adding layers, but at that point it's really only 1 layer deeper than the layer both you and your opponent have evolved into." & "But in order to find out, you have to try some different things and see how he responds to them."

Its the part where you are pretty sure he is gonna do X or Y basically 1 or 3. He should be mixing it up so you pretty much have to guess where to start once they have shown both options.

you shouldnt assume your opponent knows what you are doing until they prove that they are smart and can catch on. Also on some occasions where somebody is forced to "guess" players will cover both option if they can.
And Ideally yes, you should be ready for both options and have a response for both of them as well. Maybe just wavedash back & wait, or shield. In essence 'patterns' are predictable habits that you can be punished for, as soon as your opponent discovers these, your next step is to stop doing them, or use them as a bait.
 

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
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What happened to Ganon/IC's matchup discussion? lol
What happened? If you're not an ICs player, honestly you probably can't really say much from the ICs perspective. Ice Climbers are just one of those characters that are like that... so until someone good comes in and gives us a list... we're kinda stuck for discussion.

Ganon I'm sure more people have opinions, and kage has already voiced his opinion on several matchups, but no one seems to want to discuss. You should go ahead and prompt something, throw some numbers out there, idk =P
 

Shadow Huan

Smash Champion
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I still think Quak said it best:

Marth vs M2

Marth

Why you should lose
  • Out ranges you
  • Out prioritizes you
  • Out grabs you
  • Out edgeguards you
  • Out everythings you

Necessities to win
  • Techchasing
  • Baby Shadowballs
  • Edgeguarding prowess
  • ...............
  • ...
  • uhm........
  • threats?
It's a little like the Peach/Marth MU: head to head Marth has the adv (Though it's larger between him and M2), so the other player has to outsmart/outplay the Marth player.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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Quak is a hell of a drug

That perspective is old school. M2 doesnt approach the marth MU the same way as when Denny was an active member or the forums.

Id also rather fight marth than peach.

The MUs are handled well approached very differently. Peach has too much c4 under that dress. Her aerial priority is much worse in terms of competing with nair. the reason is the fundamental difference between marth fighting two and peach.

Peach floats and basically makes dtilt ineffective. Her cc downsmash along with m2s CC game means massive damage by habit lol. Vs peach you have to rely much more heavily on spacing, and shadowball. Its a much more camp heavy match. Peach throws ****, you gotta taj those turnips. You have to catch her coming down from floats with sbs so you can get grabs. Timing is alot harder to fight peach. She doesnt extend her hitbox nearly as much as marth and fair is much harder to get off. You fake aerial nairs and when peach counter attacks you stomp the landing on her.

Id much rather fight the opponent on the ground. But Im not as comfortable vs peach as I am marth. My opinion might change.
 

Shadow Huan

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lol the advantages of marth haven't changed though, that was my point. I do play M2 you know lmao. ;) I said M2 has to outsmart/outplay the marth player, I know that's a general way to put it but it's the truth. lol

Peach isn't easy, you seriously are playing a "I've gotta take chunks out of her when I can" kind of game. stages with platforms are usually good, FD isn't bad. she dies early at the top, getting the kills can be very very problomatic. You can F-smash through a wiffed D-smash too.

When she floats you can use nair to eat it up. its yummy.

we should be on the M2 boards talking about this hahahaha
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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I often check from my phone so its convenient. Do alot of reading.

There are some ppl that are very stupid, logic is terrible. Time after time ppl who present illogical arguments completely ignore valid points forcing the same thing to be repeated 7-8 times by multiple ppl. Each time they give in just a little but by the 7th time they start saying well Im not right but we wont know if you are until we have proof from tourney etc.

umm ganon IC in ganons favor....get at me.
 

Divinokage

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I think it's like 65-35, 70-30 for Ganon.. basically every move Ganon has disrupts ICs so hard. I think it's hard for ICs to capitalize on Ganon's mistakes or get in into his range. Pretty much the match-up lol.
 

Shadow Huan

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well i play Ganon to a certain degree (I want a rematch ganon ditto Kage ;) ) so i can give some imput without trying to sound like i know the MU really good. I'm not too experienced in it but here it goes lol.

I would say that Ganon has a definite advantage over the ICs. he hits hard and his fair can break the team apart, and nana gets horribly punished by the monster that is Ganon. Ganon can space fairs against the gounded climbers sheilds and pressure them, and i think that the Stomp works as a sheild stab. <- not-too-sure-about-that...

as long as Ganon keeps the climbers away in close combat he wins.

the ICs have their disjointed combos and grab combos though, if they can get inside the wall of fists they can really combo the **** out of Ganon.

With all this general ignorence out of the way, I see it as a spacing battle primarily, and I can't see how the ICs can effectivly camp a Ganon. they have enough good stuff (Combos and grabs) to be able to win if they get inside.

Peach vs ICs is def Peach though. D-Smash son

EDIT: Kage ninja'd me lmao
 

cablepuff

Smash Ace
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Jan 19, 2004
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608
NTSC Sheik is good vs everyone but like Fox, Falco, Puff, ICs.

She's not even really bad against Fox, Falco. They're just better against her than vice versa. All her stuff vs them works if you don't mess up. And if you don't fail Sheik has a better punish on them than vice versa (from knockdowns AND grabs). She also has some nice attack range advantage stuff on Fox and a really annoying aerial game vs Falco if she can get positioned. Also, gimps. They do well because they're just overall better than her and slightly better in the matchup because they camp better, approach better, and have Shines.

ICs I don't know much, but it's really annoying how they shut down her grab game. You have to camp them and run off Fair a lot. I talked about it with some ICs and they said they figured it was at least even. Mostly because the one time that Sheik will get grabbed she'll like die for it. But she's really gay so getting the grab with all the camping and aerial use and whatever can be a pain. Hammers go through her hands and feet if they call her for something and then they can get a big combo, which is also kind of cool.

Puff she sucks against. Puff ***** her.
i actually think that sheik has a slight advantage like > or 55 to 45 over jiggly. The problem is we haven't found a sheik that could comparably camp as hard as hungry box.
If anything she would be puff 2nd hardest match-up over (marth, falco, falcon, peach, etc).
 

rhan

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actually I spent a lot of time

trying to think about how I was going to write about a MU

that I know minimally at best.

so stfu heaven forbid I try and contribute lmao :lick:
Haha I was just kidding. I figured it was either you type slow or you put a lot of thought/ revising into your post.
 

Merkuri

Smash Lord
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i actually think that sheik has a slight advantage like > or 55 to 45 over jiggly. The problem is we haven't found a sheik that could comparably camp as hard as hungry box.
If anything she would be puff 2nd hardest match-up over (marth, falco, falcon, peach, etc).
If Jigs can break Fox's camping then she can simply break Shiek's camping. Camping won't change the Sheik from getting ***** by Jigs.
 

Merkuri

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ur logic is flawed, fox and sheik are different.
The differences between Shiek and Fox do not apply here. He is saying that if Shiek camps it will give her the edge over Jigz, I am saying that Fox's camp game is astronomically better than Shiek's and Jigz can counter it; therefore Shiek's camping will not redeem the multitude of disadvantages that she already has in the match up.
 
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