Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[BunBun]

NEW EVIDENCE GUYS
DK VS. FOX IS 70-30 IN DK'S FAVOR
DISCUSS

Spoiler

Brawl noobs for the bloody win

M2k said this a while back, but it only applied when on FD xD

I still disagree with it lol.

A character can't have a <<< matchup with somebody when they can 0-death their opponent with a few good tech chases, are arguably the most mobile character in the game and have no issue comboing into their best kill move.

Link has none of those things. He does have the SKRAAAAA, however.

Yo Skler, I played a link yesterday that camped me for 8 minutes +. You were right, it's definitely Link > Kirby, if not >>.
Link will always get more damage on Kirby than Kirby will on Link, and then he has so many more options to kill =(

 

[MEXICAN]

I'd argue that its about even on fd between dk and fox, but I wouldn't even say DK had an advantage, and it sure as hell wouldn't be a 70-30. DK doesn't have an advantage there, he just has less of a disadvantage there compared to say..Battlefield or yoshis.

I guess thats just my opinion, but I think i know the dk vs fox matchup better than m2k does or anyone else on this thread. lol

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

all this low tier vs top tier is why sheik destroys. if you never play the character.... you can just chaingrab it. except m2 and zelda.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i agree with mexican.
fd as fox sucks against dk because you know he can zero to death you, but it's still in fox's favor, imo.

but you already know that since last time i saw you, all i talked about was how bad dk was. haha

btw, i thought of you when i saw that post on the mlg chat from that ignorant *** brawl player.

 

[MEXICAN]

all this low tier vs top tier is why sheik destroys. if you never play the character.... you can just chaingrab it. except m2 and zelda.

Sheik can't cg dk either....at least not until high damage at which point its pretty pointless. lol

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i was gonna say that too, but dk's not low tier, noob...

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

Sheik can't cg dk either....at least not until high damage at which point its pretty pointless. lol

low tier characters. sheik can just... like chain move dk

 

[MEXICAN]

i was gonna say that too, but dk's not low tier, noob...

Oh yeah...I keep forgetting that. lol. He's mid tier...or something like that...lol

 

[LumpyCPU...]

he's low tier at heart. haha

 

[Silent Wolf]

coming in from waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay late im gonna disagree with this post.

Campy M2 > Kirby.

Literally cant do anything about it and on a stage like BF where M2 has Teleport options if the m2 plays gay Kirby loses.

That said, non Campy M2 < Kirby but not by much, probably closer to = than <.

i believe it. the m2 i played isnt very experienced vs kirby so i just assumed that for some reason.

 

[P. O. F.]

Obviously not knowing how to play against a char will negatively affect how well a player does against his opponent. Do I think that should have an affect on a matchup chart? No.

What you quoted from mexican was the only part of your post i agreed with. "Almost" is a good adverb.

Andy don't bother. This kid has no idea what he's talking about, you're just wasting precious brain cells.

i'm sorry but this post makes me sick, I play as pichu lowest of the low are you saying I have to win by the other player not knowing anything at all? WTF?! if that's the case this match-up chart should be totally changed. this player doesn't know how to play sooooooo fox vs bowser is now bowser>>>fox. Which is 100% true if you know nothing bowser will **** fox. This is your logic you are useing. F*** let me use this F***ed up logic some more if no one knows how to fight pichu he should more up higher cause no one knows the match-up. sssssoooooooooooooooo put pichu in the higher than puff tier.


your logic is worse than mine when i'm haveing a mental break-down mindgames/people being ****ing ********, and other things like the player can't wavedash shouldn't be counted. in match-ups it's puff being counted not mango, if it was mango then all matches are puff>>>


seeing how i've posted change falcon vs pichu to falcon>>pichu

In certain aspects not knowing how to fight a low tier is beyond beneficial because people are not comfortable with a match up in tournament or take the match too lightly. Basically, one of two things happens usually.


Once again, I'm not saying match ups are different but they do effect tournament play (mostly mindset) to an extent.

LOL.

 

[KAOSTAR]

all this low tier vs top tier is why sheik destroys. if you never play the character.... you can just chaingrab it. except m2 and zelda.

Feel me. Get slightly less destroyed. M2 *****.

 

[victra♥]

haha kaostar. thats pretty funny.

why is it that we're discussion a whole chunk of characters rather separately? Seems

 

[KAOSTAR]

Its hard to find people who regularly post in the thread who have a substantial amount of knowledge for certain low tiers.

Most of the mid-high tier are finished if not all and its not as much to discuss once you get to the bottom of the list. fox vs g&W is the same as G and dub vs fox.

 

[N64]

Post still stands pof. I don't think lack of matchup experience should have an affect on this chart.

 

[Winston]

Jiggs >> Luigi is almost definitely wrong.

Jiggs can't wall Luigi forever with bair like she can to the other floaty chars because his full length wavedash usmash/utilt can follow jiggs when she's retreating, and Luigi's moves can compete with her other moves in terms of range/disjointedness. Neither can combo the other much. Jiggs can definitely edgeguard Luigi, but she's really light so they're probably comparable in terms of survivability.

I feel like Jigglypuff is a little better at everything overall so maybe it's a >, but Vist and a couple of other Luigi players think Luigi wins the match so Idk. Either way it's definitely not a >> in Jiggs' favor.


Marth >> Luigi feels wrong to me but the matchup like never happens in high level play. From personal experience vs. competent Marths the matchup doesn't feel too far in Marth's favor, but nobody has Luigi experience so it's unclear.
I'm leaning towards Marth > Luigi, but if someone has a good argument for why Marth >> Luigi I'd probably buy it. ("Marth can keep Luigi out forever by swinging his sword" is not that argument, unless you describe in detail how Marth can systematically cover all of Luigi's options. Fair spam doesn't cut it.)

 

[KAOSTAR]

Post still stands pof. I don't think lack of matchup experience should have an affect on this chart.

It most certainly shouldn't. It clearly should be the otherway around. Highly experienced players who are around equal in skill.

It Is suppose to ideally be about the characters themselves, not the players playing them.

I hadnt actually read that argument, but if thats what its about then its pretty dumb. POF better be mad trollin.

 

[Armada]

Kirby is not bad against pichu.

From the begining i would say that too but i have change my mind.

Kirbys tech chase is so good =).

 

[joeplicate]

I think this chart should show everyone having a HUGE advantage over EVERYONE
that way when you LOSE you know it's because you're BAD

hahaha i don't know why the 'last page' button keeps taking me to random posts 10 pages back, but this is funny as ****

 

[P. O. F.]

Post still stands pof. I don't think lack of matchup experience should have an affect on this chart.

Agreed. I didn't say "The match up chart needs to be changed because of mindset."

 

[NJzFinest]

Lmao, DK is ****ing broken!

I can't even find that guy on smashboards, he must be an AllisBrawl ***.

 

[SleepyK]

garrett, is there any way you can accept being wrong for once? your entire argument was wrong.


have we started gnw yet? it's the only low tier i can give a solid argument for.

 

[giuocob]

While we're talking about Luigi...there better be a **** good reason that Doc and Mario are < Fox and Luigi is <<.

 

[Divinokage]

garrett, is there any way you can accept being wrong for once? your entire argument was wrong.


have we started gnw yet? it's the only low tier i can give a solid argument for.

I can start by saying Ganon >> GnW. Obviously if GnW tries to shield anything in that matchup, he'll most likely get shield stabbed, his shield is so horrible. lol. It's also clear Ganon has mobility and range advantage as well. However, my friend has a decent GnW and I have played that matchup multiple times. GnW can combo Ganon pretty well if he's able to get in, it's not totally hopeless. Again, both characters should die if edgeguarded properly..

I'm just stating the basic advantages for now. =P It might seem like I'm repeating myself with every matchup but in my head that's how I see it, I like it clear and simple.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Kirby is not bad against pichu.

From the begining i would say that too but i have change my mind.

Kirbys tech chase is so good =).

thisthisthisthis

IF Kirby gets a grab or knocks him over, Pichu should eat a ****ton of damage.

Think Sheik vs Falcon.

Except Pichu easily has the worst tech-roll in the game.

But Kirby doesn't have Sheik's mobility or ability to easily ground Pichu outside of low percent dthrows.

 

[otg]

Sleepy you can discuss any low tier matchup you want, there isn't a focus on a particular character atm.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I can def help SleepyK discuss GaW.

 

[Divinokage]

Well what are you waiting for!

 

[Diddy Kong]

Whoa look at Mewtwo! No longer being Bottom **** Tier no more, awesome. Gotta wonder why Zelda's still higher than him though.

DK moving up is also cool, but that was to be expected.

 

[P. O. F.]

It isn't a tier list.

Sleepy-you need to learn how to recognize trolling. You have never had an intelligent general discussion about smash w me ever so please, stop putting word in mouth as to what YOU THINK I meant or was implying.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Low tiers are boring.

Does Fox still beat Puff? I think so, but there's no denying Hungrybox's ******** win ratio, even Colbol's gone from beating him consistently to going back and forth with him.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

thisthisthisthis

IF Kirby gets a grab or knocks him over, Pichu should eat a ****ton of damage.

Think Sheik vs Falcon.

Except Pichu easily has the worst tech-roll in the game.

But Kirby doesn't have Sheik's mobility or ability to easily ground Pichu outside of low percent dthrows.

something I think most people forget if the fact pichu has more inv. frames for his n-tech than anyone esle in the game and the 2nd fastest move in the game, you put it pichu tech in place jab is safer frame wise than fox n-tech shine. I'm sorry but when people think tech chasing is all fun and games I got to lay down the facts.

but yeah pichu's tech sucks again one of pichu's 2 flaws can't take a hit and range.

 

[Magus420]

Pichu and Pika have more invincibility on the tech in place, but since you're generally punishing it at the very end of the tech when techchasing it's not that important. You are vulnerable for less total time but it isn't safer than tech in place shine.

 

[victra♥]

whoa magus lol. I didn't know that with pichu/pikachu. thats pretty cool

 

[P. O. F.]

It isn't a tier list.

Sleepy-you need to learn how to recognize trolling. You have never had an intelligent general discussion about smash w me ever so please, stop putting word in mouth as to what YOU THINK I meant or was implying.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I said FRAMe wise it's safer magus. of course a shine is safer than a jab. But yeah victra not many people have carefully read m2k's guide it's in there. more inv. frames is always nice. You have to admit pichu/pikachu have the best n-tech in the game.

 

[SleepyK]

being dumb, then being disproved, then trying to pretend you were right isn't really trolling.
plus it's hard to have an "intelligent general discussion" about smash when you generally post something wrong or stupid then attribute being wrong to trolling. idc if i get moderated for flaming, but you've been using "trolling" as a defense for being wrong, stupid, contradictory, and rude in the ct thread since forever. you're not even accomplishing anything as a troll other than making yourself look... wrong, stupid, and contradictory. if that was your goal all along, the congratulations, i fully fell for your troll trap of making me think you put your bigoted cat on your keyboard to make posts. you don't make me mad, you just make me think you're stupid. if you want to continue this discussion, i am more than happy to take this to PMs instead of continuing it here. especially since you'll probably just ignore all the points that defeat your argument and talk about something else.


i feel ganon has a >>> over game and watch. sure, gdubs can combo and edgeguard ganondorf fairly well, but ganon can keep him out and outrange him with... not even careful spacing.

plus shield = lol


i still don't think gnw v zelda is even. i feel it's < zelda at least. lol shield, lol cc up b dsmash/fsmash

 

[iamthemicrowave]

being dumb, then being disproved, then trying to pretend you were right isn't really trolling.
plus it's hard to have an "intelligent general discussion" about smash when you generally post something wrong or stupid then attribute being wrong to trolling.

i feel ganon has a >>> over game and watch. sure, gdubs can combo and edgeguard ganondorf fairly well, but ganon can keep him out and outrange him with... not even careful spacing.

plus shield = lol


i still don't think gnw v zelda is even. i feel it's < zelda at least. lol shield, lol cc up b dsmash/fsmash

lol you said Game n Watch!! see you at poe u lil stinker

 

[SleepyK]

i love game and watch ;-;

game and watch vs samus also i think warrants a -2 at least also, since samus can do what makes the fox matchup unwinnable - crouch cancel everything.
i'm not entirely sure about +2 vs bowser. i would like djn's opinion on that, but bowser has up b oos for poorly spaced gnw attacks.
plus shield and light and lol

hmm, what's the reasoning for falco being -2 instead of -3?
also i don't know if gnw can be chaingrabbed by sheik at lower percentages either. from my experience, i've been able to di downthrow to escape chaingrabs.. but mainly from bad sheiks. idk if a delayed grab would work.

 

[Geist]

I love G&W. If he wasn't so ****ed light and didn't have a crappy shield I'd consider pciking him up as a serious secondary. I love his chaingrabs and tilt juggles <3