Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Pink Reaper]

And no...dk does not do well on falco, especially if falco knows the matchup even slightly

Do you really need to know the match up to run away and laser till the DK rage quits?

 

[MEXICAN]

I must suck at DI. : /, regardless of how many matches i've played against kwan, he'll hit with at least 2 uairs after a low percent grab almost always, followed by either a third uair or fair dependant on DI. At higher percents only 1 to 2 connect, but that's enough to kill.

DI up, not to the side. After the first u air, you can jump out. If you miss your opportunity and he does a second u air and you lose your jump, up b out of it. Pikachu can get a safe distance away with his up b so that he won't even be punished. *edit* It's a little bit different on platformed stages...just di off the stage, dk can't really do much if you do so...f air is ridiculously slow. lol

Do you really need to know the match up to run away and laser till the DK rage quits?

lol, as much as I hate falco, I've never rage quit against one...well...maybe KFC's before, but that was just at his house and he's in my crew. lol. But yeah...I've had my *** handed to me by falcomist before too...and it sucks, but i'm not mad about it, i just want to play him again to see if I can do better the next time. lol

 

[Divinokage]

I've already established that your opinions are somewhat biased lol. I know you wreck IC mains all the time but you don't wreck top knotch IC mains that have a LOT of ganon experience (and unfortunately there aren't many that meet that criteria, which is why I made the comment about only referencing matches between you and Chu and Linguini and Chu) all the time. Whats your count with Chu over the years?



True. He's also lost to Chu before, when Chu had less rust.

Trust me, I think Ganon wins. But imo it's a closer matchup than people think. It's not that important really, I just looked at the chart and to me it is the only imperfection for Ganondorf's matches. I mean you guys put Ganon vs IC's in the same catagory as Ganon vs GaW, Mewtwo, and Roy. Kage used to say Ganon vs Roy is 90/10 lol. Just sayin.

Used to say? I still say Ganon/Roy 90/10.. it's an impossible matchup for Roy.. There's no way in hell Roy can do anything to get the edge over him.. Name a situation and I can counter it, even edgeguarding.

With Chu I only played him once and I still took a game off him.. and that was at Pound 3.. long time ago, it was my first OOS tournament and then from then on I don't think I've lost to any ICs, not even Wobbles.

 

[-ACE-]

Kage what you're saying is true and all, but you're conveniently ignoring some good points that I made.

not even Wobbles.

Like I said, a top notch IC main WITH SIGNIFICANT GANON EXPERIENCE lol. I'm not trying to convince you anyway, since I know your personal views on matchups are pretty much set in stone (still think ganon vs sheik is 50/50? looool). It just seems weird to me to group Ganon vs IC's in the same catagory as Ganon vs GaW and Mewtwo lol, that's just as lopsided as Fox vs Ganon or Sheik vs Ganon according to the chart.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think UberIce has the best IC vs Ganon game. This is based on extremely little research and extremely biased sources. So basically because he lives in South and Youtube videos.

I think a lot of the Ice Climber players don't know the matchup super intensively and Ganon's strategy is much more straight-forward because it's the same thing he does in pretty much every matchup (get to max range, spam moves).

 

[Divinokage]

Kage what you're saying is true and all, but you're conveniently ignoring some good points that I made.



Like I said, a top notch IC main WITH SIGNIFICANT GANON EXPERIENCE lol. I'm not trying to convince you anyway, since I know your personal views on matchups are pretty much set in stone (still think ganon vs sheik is 50/50? looool). It just seems weird to me to group Ganon vs IC's in the same catagory as Ganon vs GaW and Mewtwo lol, that's just as lopsided as Fox vs Ganon or Sheik vs Ganon according to the chart.

I don't think it's right to compare the numbers in between the matchups, since all the characters have different tools to deal with a matchup. The matchup can definitely be as hard as any other character, it's just played differently. Also, of course the numbers will not be exact like Ganon/Sheik 36-74 or Ganon/Fox 36-74 or wtv. It's too hard to determine the exact number.

So then, it would be very hard for a particular IC main to have Ganon experience since all the good Ganons are concentrated in one place and the rest of the world is left in the dust with this matchup as well as many other matchups I'm sure.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Like I said, a top notch IC main WITH SIGNIFICANT GANON EXPERIENCE lol. I'm not trying to convince you anyway, since I know your personal views on matchups are pretty much set in stone (still think ganon vs sheik is 50/50? looool). It just seems weird to me to group Ganon vs IC's in the same catagory as Ganon vs GaW and Mewtwo lol, that's just as lopsided as Fox vs Ganon or Sheik vs Ganon according to the chart.

If Ganon was > ICs, it would be in the same category for ICs as Fox, and I think Ganon is much more comparable to Peach than to Fox.

I think Chu was just better than Kage or Linguini back then. At Pound, Chu may have been a little rusty, but he was still at the same level as Linguini and he lost. KK may be right that the match-up simply isn't well-known from either side and is more straightforward for Ganon, but even if that's the case there's no evidence that it's not >>.

When the current IC metagame elevates, then maybe there will be a reason to change it. But "there are no IC mains with significant Ganon experience" doesn't really prove anything about the match-up, it just indicates that maybe they have more potential in the match-up than we've seen.

If ICs can get under Ganon with dash attack or u-air, their combo game is really good, and their grab game is difficult for Ganon to escape. But the same is somewhat true against Peach. The problem against either character is that their moveset just kind of wins; they can spam high-priority, nearly unpunishable moves whenever they anticipate IC's approach, and if one of them happens to hit, Nana dies.

Ganon's shield pushback, range, and edgeguarding are all incredible against ICs. The only hope I have for the match-up is campy, defensive play and gimmicky blizzard tricks. At high level play, though, I think blizzard starts to be more of a nuisance than a reliable way to land grabs. And as far as camping goes, Ganon needs to land approximately one hit to win the stock (or most of it) while besides grab (which is nearly impossible to land unless Ganon falls for blizzard), ICs need to land multiple first-hits for the same effect.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

I think its reasonable to compare IC match-ups to other IC match-ups in terms of difficulty, but they aren't transitive lol. It doesn't make sense to say if Doc vs Ganon is represented as Doc<Ganon then IC must be IC=Ganon because they can do x,y,z better.

I obviously feel this way for all characters.

 

[-ACE-]

KK, Kage, Kyu Puff, you all brought up really good points. *shrugs*

 

[Roneblaster]

Icy the joke is over. Sheik is >> Falcon again.

i cant stress this enough,

dazwa > Hax

m2k > mang0

m2k > SS

do i need to say anymore?

the whole reason it was changed away from >> to > was because "sheiks dont play the MU right"

well when they do it is >> or >>>. and there are plenty of competent sheiks.

 

[legion598]

roneblaster, dat aint true man

 

[P. O. F.]

that's a bad reference video because it's clear scar doesn't know how to edgeguard DK very well.

I didn't see this coming at all. You, once again finding a post I make and trying to tear it down yet again and failing. Don't you ever have anything nice to say? I was starting to think you were a cool guy but.... here you go again. You do this on youtube too. LOL. Regardless of if Scar knows how to edge guard DK or not. WHO DOES? It's an uncommon match up.

certainly not this kid:

(Was going to link M2K Vs Bum on Fd but it got deleted.)


Do you know how to edgeguard Mewtwo? Pikachu? I certainly don't know how to edge guard a top level pikachu.

DK's recovery does NOT suck. If you think that he is easily edgeguarded, play me for awhile and you'll probably get pissed off at how long i'm surviving. I'm not really worried about d airs from anyone hitting me because i'd just ledge tech it,

This guy knows what hes talking about

dairs on top of the stage are good against people who dont know what teching is. lol.

 

[KAOSTAR]

You have to hit m2 during the start of his double jump and grab ledge. Marth, fox, falco, sheik can do a decent job, falcon if its just during his combo lol.

But its not incredibly easy. Might as well let him get back and ****. Bottom tier FTW.

 

[N64]

stuff

so because a match is not commonly played, we can skew things in favor of the less common char? we've got some chart remaking to do.

i disagree almost entirely with your post. Character flaws don't go away from people not knowing how to abuse them, and us sticking our fingers in our ears when they're pointed out doesn't help progression at all.

I think Dk's recovery is decent, btw, and pretty much agree with mexican on that note. Monkey lives too long.

 

[NJzFinest]

lol POF, that's basically what I said earlier in this thread.

No respect, pff

 

[KAOSTAR]

Man I hope I get to dair the mexican one day. From wayy off the stage of course tho. I just wanna see if he techs it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Icy the joke is over. Sheik is >> Falcon again.

i cant stress this enough,

dazwa > Hax

m2k > mang0

m2k > SS

do i need to say anymore?

the whole reason it was changed away from >> to > was because "sheiks dont play the MU right"

well when they do it is >> or >>>. and there are plenty of competent sheiks.

He's taking out his frustration!

Why did SoCal restart?

 

[P. O. F.]

so because a match is not commonly played, we can skew things in favor of the less common char? we've got some chart remaking to do.

i disagree almost entirely with your post. Character flaws don't go away from people not knowing how to abuse them, and us sticking our fingers in our ears when they're pointed out doesn't help progression at all.

I think Dk's recovery is decent, btw, and pretty much agree with mexican on that note. Monkey lives too long.

Is Smash the only competitive fighting game you play? Just curious. In certain aspects not knowing how to fight a low tier is beyond beneficial because people are not comfortable with a match up in tournament or take the match too lightly. Basically, one of two things happens usually.

A-"LOL, its Pikachu against Fox. This is going to be easy." (What happened to Jman, NY and arguably East Coasts BEST FOX at that summer tournament [having a brain fart and can't remember the name of that tournament for the life of me] against Axe. Axe is a good player, Jman underestimated him.

or

B- "Crap, ummm what the flying **** do I do against a Mario? I've never played Mario!!!" Fox's u throw to uair BS does not work against the Marios and sometimes Fox players run around with chickens with their heads cut off and sometimes lose this match up because they can't do their go to move or strategy. Sometimes Marths have trouble too because they take the match lightly and try to fsmash at the ledge all day when all they need to do is just d tilt all day. I know I used to do this.

Once again, I'm not saying match ups are different but they do effect tournament play (mostly mindset) to an extent.

Also, pretty sure I said DK's recovery is good so I guess you don't entirely disagree with what I'm saying.

 

[KAOSTAR]

sometimes Fox players run around with chickens with their heads cut off

I love fox players who run around with beheaded falcos.

 

[MEXICAN]

Man I hope I get to dair the mexican one day. From wayy off the stage of course tho. I just wanna see if he techs it.

I wanna see kaostar try to d air me with m2 one day, mainly due to the fact that I'm only coming in low enough for you to dair me if i have a jump that would put me close enough to the stage so that if you dair'd me while i was using my up b, i'd just tech and laugh. =D I would otherwise just come in really high above the stage and take my chances of evading your attempt to punish me for doing so.

 

[N64]

stuff

Obviously not knowing how to play against a char will negatively affect how well a player does against his opponent. Do I think that should have an affect on a matchup chart? No.

What you quoted from mexican was the only part of your post i agreed with. "Almost" is a good adverb.

 

[otg]

Obviously not knowing how to play against a char will negatively affect how well a player does against his opponent. Do I think that should have an affect on a matchup chart? No.

What you quoted from mexican was the only part of your post i agreed with. "Almost" is a good adverb.

Andy don't bother. This kid has no idea what he's talking about, you're just wasting precious brain cells.

 

[BunBun]

N64's name is Andy?

Hi five! Me too!

Pikaaaaa

 

[SleepyK]

pof, any matchup chart in other fighting games also assumes you know the matchup.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Is Smash the only competitive fighting game you play? Just curious. In certain aspects not knowing how to fight a low tier is beyond beneficial because people are not comfortable with a match up in tournament or take the match too lightly. Basically, one of two things happens usually.

A-"LOL, its Pikachu against Fox. This is going to be easy." (What happened to Jman, NY and arguably East Coasts BEST FOX at that summer tournament [having a brain fart and can't remember the name of that tournament for the life of me] against Axe. Axe is a good player, Jman underestimated him.

or

B- "Crap, ummm what the flying **** do I do against a Mario? I've never played Mario!!!" Fox's u throw to uair BS does not work against the Marios and sometimes Fox players run around with chickens with their heads cut off and sometimes lose this match up because they can't do their go to move or strategy. Sometimes Marths have trouble too because they take the match lightly and try to fsmash at the ledge all day when all they need to do is just d tilt all day. I know I used to do this.

Once again, I'm not saying match ups are different but they do effect tournament play (mostly mindset) to an extent.

Also, pretty sure I said DK's recovery is good so I guess you don't entirely disagree with what I'm saying.

i'm sorry but this post makes me sick, I play as pichu lowest of the low are you saying I have to win by the other player not knowing anything at all? WTF?! if that's the case this match-up chart should be totally changed. this player doesn't know how to play sooooooo fox vs bowser is now bowser>>>fox. Which is 100% true if you know nothing bowser will **** fox. This is your logic you are useing. F*** let me use this F***ed up logic some more if no one knows how to fight pichu he should more up higher cause no one knows the match-up. sssssoooooooooooooooo put pichu in the higher than puff tier.


your logic is worse than mine when i'm haveing a mental break-down mindgames/people being ****ing ********, and other things like the player can't wavedash shouldn't be counted. in match-ups it's puff being counted not mango, if it was mango then all matches are puff>>>


seeing how i've posted change falcon vs pichu to falcon>>pichu

 

[KAOSTAR]

@ICG, from one bottom tier main to another-them not knowing the matchup helps oodles. If I beat somebody good because they dont know the matchup Ill still be happy with it. Its not the only way to win but its usually the primary method of taking games of high tiers.

next comes being mad ****.

@the mexican- lol suit yourself.

@teh Icy where are we on matchups now?

 

[Wenbobular]

NEW EVIDENCE GUYS
DK VS. FOX IS 70-30 IN DK'S FAVOR
DISCUSS

Spoiler

Brawl noobs for the bloody win

 

[t3h Icy]

Mewtwo = Yoshi

Link = Pikachu
Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu > Ness
Pikachu > Roy
Pikachu > Zelda
Samus >> Yoshi
Yoshi > Pichu

DK > Ness
Kirby > Ness
Mewtwo > Zelda
Mr.G&W >> Kirby
Pichu > Kirby
Pikachu > Kirby
Pikachu = Young Link
Young Link > Kirby
Young Link > Roy
Zelda >> Kirby
Zelda > Mr.G&W

I PM'd DJNintendo about Bowser match-ups so he should help out with those once he has some time.

 

[otg]

You should also PM WarriorKnight, he's another fantastic Bowser in NY who would be able to help you as well.

 

[t3h Icy]

DJ said he's going to discuss it with him, so he'll PM back both when he can.

 

[otg]

That's ****, good **** to DJ

 

[V3ctorMan]

Mewtwo = Yoshi

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT........ I COMPLETELY agree, even though, I said what i said earlier, about a small if even adv, for mewtwo. I was playing vs Taj, and I completely agree that it's 50/50...

Vman loves teh icy! woot

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

@ICG, from one bottom tier main to another-them not knowing the matchup helps oodles. If I beat somebody good because they dont know the matchup Ill still be happy with it. Its not the only way to win but its usually the primary method of taking games of high tiers.

next comes being mad ****.

It does happen a lot my it's a terrible thing to relie on and I hope most people have at least read some guides because it would help to know how to di vs m2's d-throw a fair amount just like knowing pichu can chain throw you.

I just don't ever plan to let that be how I win because they don't know, however it did make m2k rage quit before I could take a stock.

also AT teh icy dude pichu<<falcon not pichu<<<falcon, I mean does anyone find a reason why i'm wrong?

 

[MEXICAN]

NEW EVIDENCE GUYS
DK VS. FOX IS 70-30 IN DK'S FAVOR
DISCUSS

Spoiler

Brawl noobs for the bloody win

lol, thats funny

 

[KAOSTAR]

Maybe Im mistaken, but didnt you pm DJ nintendo and warrior knight around the same time you asked me about m2 matchups lol,

So did they ever respond lmao, or has the meta game changed since then and you need another opinion? How busy could they really be lol?

FYI you did lol

@V3ctorman-you ****in up man, you gotta choose yo side. lol. M2 needs to win as many matchups as possible.

M2.........or.........yoshi

Lol @ the DK fox thing. Get ***** MU chart

 

[t3h Icy]

I PM'd him again recently:

Hey, awhile back I asked for your advice about Bowser, but you never got a chance to get back to me.

We're currently discussing all the Low-Bottom Tiers together, and there hasn't been much on Bowser.

Here's the thread if you're interested in helping out. I figure you're the go-to Bowser guy, so your advice, opinions and discussion on Bowsers match-ups would be really appreciated.

Thanks. =)

Wow. I need to quit life for forgetting about helping you out with this lol. I will definitely get on it. WarriorKnight and I are the go-to Bowsers so other Bowsers don't count LOL.

 

[Skler]

i play with a link of an equal skill level all the time, i still say >>

edit well let me put it like this then.

if falcon is >>> link.

then falco, fox, and sheik are all >>> Falcon.

because it takes more ****ing up of your opponent to win than it does what you do.

Icy, on a some-what related note. the joke is over. Sheik is >> Falcon again.

A character can't have a <<< matchup with somebody when they can 0-death their opponent with a few good tech chases, are arguably the most mobile character in the game and have no issue comboing into their best kill move.

Link has none of those things. He does have the SKRAAAAA, however.

 

[TheManaLord]

such fail topic

people use real world examples to show matchups when a lot of the time, especially in this very small competitive community, players easily transcend matchup averages

 

[TheManaLord]

such fail topic

people use real world examples to show matchups when a lot of the time, especially in this very small competitive community, players easily transcend matchup averages

 

[t3h Icy]

You've been saying all sorts of things ranging from whining about numbers, disagreeing with 90% of people, being colourblind, etc, etc, but you're still here. =)

You're not obligated to stay; feel free to leave anytime if you dislike this topic so much.