Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[KAOSTAR]

Im thinking they intended it to be more of a legend/key.

Just something concrete that helps narrow it down. Alot of people are using numbers and converting to comparative symbols.

This is more like the conversion, I like your CHART as is.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Im thinking they intended it to be more of a legend/key.

Just something concrete that helps narrow it down. A lot of people are using numbers and converting to comparative symbols.

This is more like the conversion, I like your CHART as is.

This.

The chart should stay the way it is. But some people still identify the MU's a bit differently and it helps to have something official that can put them together. Its easier to understand that a slight advantage is from having 60-65. Almost even, but shifted a little more than just play-style and stage and there is a definitive advantage for one of the characters.

If somebody can come up with something better that's fine, but I just think a legend could help give the chart a little bit more meaning. Its only hard to come up with accurate numbers from 0-100, but hitting within a range is a lot easier. This also give the >, >>, >>> a bit of definition.

I hope I made sense.

 

[john!]

Please avoid using numbers. People assign all kinds of different unintended meanings to them. Symbols are the way to go.

 

[P. O. F.]

Normally whenever someone links me a video to a matchup as evidence supporting their claim I laugh, but whenever its a Mango vid? It's done.

There's that meat ridin.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Please avoid using numbers. People assign all kinds of different unintended meanings to them. Symbols are the way to go.

Because symbols have inherent meaning that can be explained objectively?

Can you elaborate on that, I dont quite understand what you mean?

All matchups follow certain patterns at the highest levels of play, while the players are actually deviating from the pattern knowingly in order to "beat" the opponent if they follow the pattern or if they predict a deviation and need to protect themselves.

If one could describe the pattern they would have a fairly objective standpoint on the match-up.

 

[ChaosNoobSlayer]

Ah, I see what you are saying.

 

[john!]

Because symbols have inherent meaning that can be explained objectively?

Symbols can only be compared to each other. If you use numbers though, people start thinking it's "percent of matches won" or "percent of sets won" or "difference in skill level" or all sorts of random things. With symbols it's like "oh ok the IC's worst matchups are Peach and Ganon, which is about as bad as Ganon or Falcon vs. Fox".

 

[KAOSTAR]

I just thought it would be some sort of standard.

for example :between 55-45 and 65-35 is equal to >

I think alot of ppl still think of the MUs in numbers. Instead of arguing between 67-43 and 70-30 you can just say >>>

I just thought a key wouldnt change anything but it would give ppl a bit more to work with when deciding MUs. The chart should still be represented as it is.

It helps to define the lower end of >> and the higher end of > so more ppl understand-if that way makes more sense to them. It puts everyone on the same scale without having to argue about very small differences in number when they are objectively the same thing.

best of both worlds imo

 

[ChaosNoobSlayer]

Its not worded the best but I see what you mean. It just makes the dividing lines a little bit clearer.

@teh Icy-Just post it in the OP but dont change the chart.

 

[Merkuri]

I'm overestimating it's importance? I'm saying that Falcon has a slow *** techroll and Luigi has a decent punish game on Falcon.

Yes I understand that. And I'm saying that this isn't a big factor in the match up. Luigi isn't Shiek where he can force falcon to tech again after he tech chases, Luigi's tech chasing isn't bad but it really isn't good either.

What are you trying to prove with that video? I think I saw maybe 2 Uair chains and a stomp -> knee, saying that Falcon's combos on Luigi are way worse is quite the stretch. I think what's more important is that the basics (Nair -> knee, stomp knee) are still there, but Luigi is by no means "combo fodder" ... that's Marth we're talking about

Like I said in my post the point is to prove Falcon can combo Luigi very well. After rewatching the video I realize there weren't as many combos in that video(there is a point where mango chained 4 aerials together though) as I thought. If you watch the entire set though it becomes more obvious that Falcon combos Luigi very well.

Luigi's combo DI is also pretty unintuitive - he's so floaty that you sometimes you want to actually hold in, because holding away actually puts you at like, perfect height to get Uair'd across the stage ...

This hardly changes for any character vs Falcon. Sometimes you want to hold in and sometimes you want to hold out while you're being juggled.

I don't see the argument for >> , which I think means a totally **** matchup. They both have good punish games, they both have good edgeguards, Luigi just has to work harder to get the hit which I believe warrants a > but not >>

Still hoping for a 1.5 >

I think this is why we are primarily in disagreement. >> Doesn't mean ****, like the chart says it means the character has an advantage. >>> means ****. Falcon >>Luigi does not mean Falcon ***** Luigi, it means Falcon has a more than a slight advantage against Luigi. With that in mind I keep my position at Falcon >> Luigi.

As far as falcon vs luigi, which top luigi player from the tandem of 3, has beaten any of the top falcon players?
Falcon>>Luigi

I'm pretty sure the answer is none. Even Ka-master the best Luigi of them all can't pull it off.

 

[BunBun]

o·pine (-pn)
v. o·pined, o·pin·ing, o·pines
v.tr.
To state as an opinion.
v.intr.
To express an opinion: opined on the defendant's testimony.

Ripped

Apologies. I suck.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Symbols can only be compared to each other. If you use numbers though, people start thinking it's "percent of matches won" or "percent of sets won" or "difference in skill level" or all sorts of random things. With symbols it's like "oh ok the IC's worst matchups are Peach and Ganon, which is about as bad as Ganon or Falcon vs. Fox".

Ok so if we make a 10 point system but instead of writing 0-10 we replace it with a-k, will the meaning change? nope, and neither does the meaning in this 7 point system.

 

[Roneblaster]

luigi is ****.

ya'll *****es dont know 'bout my luigi.

 

[otg]

There's that meat ridin.

You're an idiot.

I was implying that Mango shouldn't be used to gauge matchups because he can **** anyone with anyone.

 

[ChivalRuse]

luigi is ****.

ya'll *****es dont know 'bout my luigi.

You know about the Luigi dropzone, right? Dthrow with your back to the ledge -> run off chop.

 

[ZoSo]

True dave, I agree that Marth does get ***** if he messes up vs top levels jigs but I think marth just needs to keep his distance, get a lead and never approach and he's fine. A lead vs jigs as marth is incredible. Jigs does not have an answer to a retreating fair.

You're ignoring one of the fundamental elements of Smash. Why would Jiggs try to fight your priority head-on when she can just let you back yourself into a corner?

I think grabs as marth vs jigs are underrated. Yes, a grab may be deadly by either a cc rest or fsmash but you just minimize your grabs and train the jigs to think you will not rest.

I agree that it's not impossible to grab Jiggs, but the reward for getting the grab is pathetic considering the risk you're taking by attempting it in the first place.

and if marth can create that "wall" of aerials when she's recovering both vertically and horizontally.

Lol @ Marth any character edgeguarding Puff.

There is no way Jigglypuff can beat a fade back fair without having a projectile.

Marth had the advantage for sure.

See above.

You're an idiot.

I was implying that Mango shouldn't be used to gauge matchups because he can **** anyone with anyone.

Clearly you were riding meat by acknowledging Mango's talent. Don't deny it, dude.

 

[otg]

****, you got me Dave. I only **** ride for obama tho.

 

[Roneblaster]

zoso your sig has brought me so many tremendous lulz that i....well i dont even know what.

You know about the Luigi dropzone, right? Dthrow with your back to the ledge -> run off chop.

i dropzone moves for edgeguards all the time, but i've never done that. ill have to do it tonight.

 

[JPOBS]

yea zoso's sig is win

 

[N64]

Yea, i'm not buying the "marth can fade away fair camp jiggs" argument either. You're going to run out of stage pretty quickly, then what's your response?

 

[BunBun]

fsmash.


Always.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Puff's bair has the strange property of going through or trading with Marth's fsmash. Try to space the fsmash? It'll whiff, and you get baired anyway.

 

[john!]

Ok so if we make a 10 point system but instead of writing 0-10 we replace it with a-k, will the meaning change? nope, and neither does the meaning in this 7 point system.

You're right, but with less symbols than numbers we're sacrificing precision for accuracy, and not spending 10 years on each matchup because we can't decide between 55:45 and 60:40.

 

[t3h Icy]

DK = Link
DK > Mewtwo
DK > Yoshi
Luigi > Link
Kirby > Bowser
Kirby > Link
Kirby > Mewtwo
Kirby > Roy

Link = Pikachu
Mewtwo = Yoshi
Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu = Yoshi
Samus >> Yoshi
Yoshi > Pichu

DK > Ness
Kirby > Ness
Mewtwo > Zelda
Mr.G&W >> Kirby
Pichu > Kirby
Pikachu > Kirby
Pikachu = Young Link
Young Link > Kirby
Young Link > Roy
Zelda >> Kirby
Zelda > Mr.G&W

Want me to update the top section while we snail our way through the others?

Its not worded the best but I see what you mean. It just makes the dividing lines a little bit clearer.

@teh Icy-Just post it in the OP but dont change the chart.

I've had a quick blurb about it since the beginning.

Ok so if we make a 10 point system but instead of writing 0-10 we replace it with a-k, will the meaning change? nope, and neither does the meaning in this 7 point system.

Yes, but a 10 point system is equally distributed, while the symbol system is weighted unequally towards the middle.

Yea, i'm not buying the "marth can fade away fair camp jiggs" argument either. You're going to run out of stage pretty quickly, then what's your response?

fsmash.


Always.

That's how you get punished.

 

[Merkuri]

DK = Link
DK > Mewtwo
DK > Yoshi
Luigi > Link
Kirby > Bowser
Kirby > Link
Kirby > Mewtwo
Kirby > Roy

Link = Pikachu
Mewtwo = Yoshi
Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu = Yoshi
Samus >> Yoshi
Yoshi > Pichu

DK > Ness
Kirby > Ness
Mewtwo > Zelda
Mr.G&W >> Kirby
Pichu > Kirby
Pikachu > Kirby
Pikachu = Young Link
Young Link > Kirby
Young Link > Roy
Zelda >> Kirby
Zelda > Mr.G&W

You forgot Falcon >> Luigi.

 

[Let It Riot]

DK = Link
DK > Mewtwo
DK > Yoshi
Luigi > Link
Kirby > Bowser
Kirby > Link
Kirby > Mewtwo
Kirby > Roy

Link = Pikachu
Mewtwo = Yoshi
Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu = Yoshi
Samus >> Yoshi
Yoshi > Pichu

DK > Ness
Kirby > Ness
Mewtwo > Zelda
Mr.G&W >> Kirby
Pichu > Kirby
Falcon >> Luigi
Pikachu > Kirby
Pikachu = Young Link
Young Link > Kirby
Young Link > Roy
Zelda >> Kirby
Zelda > Mr.G&W

Want me to update the top section while we snail our way through the others?

You forgot Falcon >> Luigi.

Are you blind?

 

[t3h Icy]

You should really find something better to do. Also I always alphabetize lists.

Falcon/Luigi is sort of still being discussed, so I didn't want to touch it until it's done.

 

[MEXICAN]

Sorry i'm not here very often to discuss dk's matchups, but yeah, DK>Mario. Its not a huge advantage, but an advantage nonetheless. It basically comes down to what Nj said, Mario just has too much trouble putting dk away. I could probably survive up to 200+ damage against mario unless he gets a lucky f smash on me, and any mario player that thinks that getting a f smash on dk randomly is easy or a given is mistaken. And mario's f smash isn't going to beat dk's b air unless the dk has horrid spacing. The most he can really hope for is a cc'd d smash. And to be honest, when i play this matchup, i'm basically just running away and charging my giant punch the whole time. Mario's too slow to be able to constantly keep the pressure on and his fireballs are no pills. The pills bounce up high enough to hit you when you're standing on a platform, the fireballs don't. DK also has more ko moves than just about anbody else (i'm sure not everybody, but most of the cast). B air, u air, d smash, giant punch and up b are his primary ko moves, but even a f air and b throw aren't too bad at ko'ing. I'll give mario that he can do some pretty nasty combos on dk, but racking up damage isn't what his problem is, its just putting dk away that's the problem

 

[BunBun]

Kirby > Link

lol .



Also, does anyone that plays the matchup a lot think Kiby > Mewtwo?
SW is the only person who has said that, and has said they play the matchup a lot.


'Cause I really, really have to disagree. Iori effectively shuts down everything kirby can do.

 

[Let It Riot]

You should really find something better to do. Also I always alphabetize lists.

Falcon/Luigi is sort of still being discussed, so I didn't want to touch it until it's done.

K comes before L.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Well, it would be a step up from *Pound* 4 Grand Finals.

Besides, Pichu can nair combo Kirby. It's pretty sweet. It would be intense, too, because of a possible grabicide at any time!

Grand finals at pound ended with the use of jab to punish Rest. It looked like mad disrespect, cockiness, arrogance, and vicious spite.

A large amount of the crowd loved it.

 

[KAOSTAR]

For the last time. Nobody has said DK>m2.

Everyone who has said anything has said M2>DK

lol .



Also, does anyone that plays the matchup a lot think Kiby > Mewtwo?
SW is the only person who has said that, and has said they play the matchup a lot.


'Cause I really, really have to disagree. Iori effectively shuts down everything kirby can do.

Its definitely not an equal matchup. Alot of it comes down to spacing. The last 4-5 times he beat me but its always close, but I honestly feel he was just outspacing me.

I feel that m2 has the advantage in the MU, but Id listen to anyone putting up a valid argument for kirby.

M2 is more mobile on the ground and he can move faster in the air. M2 has a usable projectile and a better approach. He has a better recovery and WD to nair oos can punish some of kirbys early spaced aerial attempts.

Alot of Kirbys moves clank with the dtilt but if I remember correctly m2 has a faster tilt so thats a check in his favor. M2 has more range on the ground, but kirby has more range in the air. its possible for kirby to out prioritize m2s moves but m2 doesnt approach from the air very much because he has this problem with almost literally every character.

Kirby does have a **** *** grab range but m2 has better throws.

Kirby also has better kill moves aside from m2s guaranteed upthrow.

M2 has a better combo game. His combos are the same combos he can do on all floaties. The only variation is the percents that you can do them at.

My opinion on the MU is that you have to work harder with kirby and must outspace the m2 in order to win.

 

[MEXICAN]

For the last time. Nobody has said DK>m2.

Everyone who has said anything has said M2>DK

Agreed. lol

 

[otg]

Can you guys explain why DK < M2 besides the fact that Mexican got ***** by Taj once? I don't see how m2 could deal with proper bair and uair usage.

 

[xbombr]

Can you guys explain why DK < M2 besides the fact that Mexican got ***** by Taj once? I don't see how m2 could deal with proper bair and uair usage.

It's all about dem shadowballs.

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:
DK = Link
DK > Yoshi
Kirby > Bowser
Kirby = Link
Kirby = Mewtwo
Kirby > Roy
Luigi > Link
Mewtwo > DK

Still Discussing:
Link = Pikachu
Mewtwo = Yoshi
Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu = Yoshi
Samus >> Yoshi
Yoshi > Pichu

DK > Ness
Kirby > Ness
Mewtwo > Zelda
Mr.G&W >> Kirby
Pichu > Kirby
Pikachu > Kirby
Pikachu = Young Link
Young Link > Kirby
Young Link > Roy
Zelda >> Kirby
Zelda > Mr.G&W

 

[KirbyKaze]

Kirby Link is most certainly not even.

Even if I didn't have experience in the matchup (sadly just with people worse than me) I'd feel that Kirby loses because Link can use his vs IC strat a lot and jump around with bombs and rangs and make Kirby attack and then Kirby's awful aerial mobility screws him over entirely. His tiny jumps aren't good for attacking platforms, either, and he doesn't have much priority above him except for his Uair, which isn't even high priority or anything but if it trades he does like 15% and maybe kills so it's worth something. His priority in front of him in the air is also largely non-existent and it's hard to keep your back to someone when they're throwing projectiles at you all the time.

If Link plays nicely though and does a grounded style primarily, Kirby's D-tilt is annoying for him, same with his duck, and Kirby can pressure in his face. Link approaching has issues dealing with a character that low to the ground because normally Link's approach against low priority or range is:

Steps:
1) throw something
2) FJ Nair
3) Screw around with Nair in their face

Three doesn't really really work as well as usual because Kirby's body being so tucked to the earth makes him have to commit to the point where he can't DJ and run away after poking in with Nair. He has to actually land and possibly put himself at risk. He can't grab Kirby's duck either, so alternative solution to crouch cancel spam is less good than it normally is. His weight and fall speed also make him good for Kirby's combo game, and Kirby's edgeguarding (IMHO) is pretty good against his style of recovery, being able to CC D-tilt at the edge vs Up+B, jump out and Bair, ledgehop invincible Bairs, and drop extremely low to tap Link out of hookshots.

But if Link just runs around and forces Kirby to be slow (Kirby's ground movement > his air movement) and approach, Link will win.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Edit:

Teh Icy-Im fine with leaving Kirby vs M2=until some other Kirby/Mewtwo players give their opinion.
1 votes K>M2
2 votes M2>K
More ppl agree M2>Kirby, not that it means much. Its just not decided upon.

M2>Yoshi-You will probably have to get confirmation for V3ctorman most likely-he plays both a good yoshi and mewtwo.

The M2 vs DK matchup comes down to Dk spamming bairs trying to force m2 to run out of space. M2 wins this matchup with offense. A well spaced bair is very hard to punish, but its not easy to connect with.

Dk is combo food for a M2. Sb>grab-dthrow>Dtilt(x2)>fair/nair/grab. All day! It just depends on the DI. M2 has a very strong combo game on Dk and he can rack up damage MUCH faster.

M2 outclasses DK in terms of speed and mobility. M2 has to maneuver around Dks bair while throwing sbs to force DKs actions. If DK puts up a shield or gets hit M2 has a good chance of getting the grab or Dtilt.

Whenever DK is facing m2 he is at a disadvantage defensively. DKs defense is his offense as soon as he makes contact with M2. DKs tilts seem to extend his hitbox and provide no real form of pressure, not to mention that any strong hit on m2 leads to nothing. If I can tech away you will almost never be able to get there in time.

Believe it or not, but DK is susceptible to SB camping. You cant spam bairs and deal with the projectile at the same time. If you arent spamming bairs, you lost the only thing you had going for you. DK can legitimately force m2 away, a little better than Zelda can but M2 can retreat to the other side more safely due to DK not having a fair. Retreating to the ledge is often a safe option, which can be achieved by light shielding or WD back oos.

In terms of edgeguarding, again its one sided. Dk doesnt have many options to keep M2 from safely returning to the stage. Conversely, M2s downsmash ***** DKs attempts at sweetspotting. SB can cause DK to lose very important vertical height, and coupled with a dair can mean an instant stock. The soft part of DKs up+B is CC and can be dealt with accordingly. Fsmash is a safe option that can punish any attempts to come above stage height.

Its bad, but alot safer for M2 to be on a platform than DK. M2 can teleport oos to escape while DK is praying he doesnt get hit by M2s nair/uptilt. Both can lead to effective followups.

DK has a good uair, and bair. M2s can deal with bair effectively and Uair doesnt combo at kill percents and is hard to get into a position to hit with it. You can cargo throw into uair until I certain percent, at which I honestly can recall, but DK has a shorter grab range than M2 and is definitely disadvantaged while facing M2. M2 doesnt aerially approach very often which limits the opportunities for DK to get any sort of vertical attack to connect.

M2 has to force DK out of his defensive stance because opportunities to break it are far and few between. Although forcing him out of it can be seen as breaking it LOL. Offensively M2 wins hands down. M2 handles the lower mobility powerhouses fairly well. A safe CP IMO because the outcome of the match will ALWAYS come down to the M2 player's ability to break defeat the zoning while being able to safely maneuver around it.

Stage(neutrals) size will only slow down or speed up the match, it doesnt change the advantage/disadvantage. DK can force M2 back on any stage and on smaller ones he looks to be more offensive. M2 has less leeway in terms of getting hit and living but on a stage like Yoshi's Story tech chasing can be menacing. The other amazing thing about YS is that its not terribly hard to put DK on a platform. When this is done it lowers the kill percent of M2s upthrow by about 7 percent per level. DK is heavy but upthrow is fall speed only and therefore kills much lower than you would think. 128/138 on FD and Its substantially lower on YS. M2s pummel also increases the time of the grab and adds decent damage.

DK is a more mobile, BUT, more combo-able Zelda with a more predictable and easier to punish recovery.

Despite all of this, M2 is still bad and even with being heavily disadvantaged the MU only surmounts to M2>DK lol.

note: Even though DK can be approaching with bairs, I consider it defense because he is really just trying to keep M2 from coming in and taking his cookies.

 

[otg]

im not reading all that

 

[KirbyKaze]

Dk is combo food for a M2. Sb>grab-dthrow>Dtilt(x2)>fair/nair/grab. All day! It just depends on the DI. M2 has a very strong combo game on Dk and he can rack up damage MUCH faster.

Couldn't this entire string be stopped by DK DIing away from the D-throw?