Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[KirbyKaze]

Do any docs actually do this consistently? Hit the uthrow chaingrab -> dthrow chaingrab -> death I mean.

No. And I'll admit Doc is a bad example (he's what first came to mind), but he's just really there to illustrate that you have a lot of options to be gay with against Falcon when he lands onstage. Lots of gay combo stuff works on him well into dumb percents.

 

[t3h Icy]

Spread into 3 groups of most agree-ness/discussed:

DK = Link
DK > Mewtwo
DK > Yoshi
Luigi > Link
Kirby > Bowser
Kirby > Mewtwo
Kirby > Roy
Link > Kirby

Link = Pikachu
Mewtwo = Yoshi
Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu = Yoshi
Samus >> Yoshi
Yoshi > Pichu

DK > Ness
Kirby > Ness
Mewtwo > Zelda (please don't hurt me)
Mr.G&W >> Kirby
Pichu > Kirby
Pikachu > Kirby
Pikachu = Young Link
Young Link > Kirby
Young Link > Roy
Zelda >> Kirby
Zelda > Mr.G&W

Some of my thoughts: the whole Falco/Kirby thing I think is a little overrated, or maybe I'm wrong. A top Falco vs a top Kirby doesn't happen, and with Falco, they would often underestimate and/or not know the match-up. With Falco against Kirby, you want to camp and spam lasers to force an approach and then attack Kirby. Kirby is neat with Falco's lasers, but Swallowing Falco would be hard if the Falco is playing properly. Granted, Falco does a lot of Dair/Shine combos, so it is possible through some sort of mindgame. Mew2King posted a little while back that Silent Wolf's Kirby beat his Falco in friendlies, so maybe I'm wrong though. My uneducated opinion is Falco >> Kirby at best for Kirby.

Link vs Bowser is based on Skler's opinion, that Bowser is run down by spam, can't combo and Link has a way easier time on Bowser. Can anyone else confirm? I'd imagine it is Link >>> Bowser, but that hasn't been touched much.

Falcon is Pichu's easiest match-up of the top/high tiers, but it is still pretty brutal. Maybe Falcon >> Pichu, but I have no idea how it works fully.

I agree with Peach >> Yoshi and Samus >> Yoshi. Yoshi is much easier to combo and those character's CC is brutal, but Yoshi isn't helpless has some power to his attacks. Eggs are fun too. Still pretty horrible for Yoshi.

Also the general idea of "lol low tires r t3h dum" isn't too surprising. A lot of characters from early on get left behind and their metagames don't evolve nearly as fast. Occasionally though a few people will pick up a character and bring them to a level that would be standard if there were equal distribution of players using all the characters. Taj's Mewtwo, HDL's Link and Axe's Pikachu are all amazing, but part of that is because nobody has ever seen those characters at that level before, and often their opponents aren't super fluent with the match-up. There's a bunch of friendly videos of HDL taking games of SS and Zhu, Taj has accomplished a ton with Mewtwo, and Axe got 17th at Pound 4.

If all the characters were developed equally though, those players' characters would still be great, but they'd be typical and wouldn't be absolutely amazing, such as Lucky's Fox compared to other Foxes for example. In terms of the chart, low tiers still obviously have disadvantages; that's why they're low tiers, but there aren't as many match-ups as people think where characters get completely demolished.

 

[KAOSTAR]

M2>yoshi
M2>DK --the mexican brought this up.

I cant tell you how the kirby falco **** is, but Silent Wolf's kirby has put the hurt on alot of decent falcos. If only he could play his own.

 

[BunBun]

Kirby > Link No one said this IIRC

Some of my thoughts: the whole Falco/Kirby thing I think is a little overrated, or maybe I'm wrong. A top Falco vs a top Kirby doesn't happen, and with Falco, they would often underestimate and/or not know the match-up. With Falco against Kirby, you want to camp and spam lasers to force an approach and then attack Kirby. Kirby is neat with Falco's lasers, but Swallowing Falco would be hard if the Falco is playing properly. Granted, Falco does a lot of Dair/Shine combos, so it is possible through some sort of mindgame. Mew2King posted a little while back that Silent Wolf's Kirby beat his Falco in friendlies, so maybe I'm wrong though. My uneducated opinion is Falco >> Kirby at best for Kirby.

Dthrow techchase to swallow is pretty good. Gotta watchout for the return dair from the swallow lag though.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

yeah pichu<<falcon is really legit. but puff should be the same for the fact pichu can control a lot of his speed and has a great rest punishment side-b (39% damage kills anystage at 25%), projectile is very helpful and can set-up a little. wd/up-B under puff for up-smash is more legit than you would think. both have a fairly hard time of edge gaurding pichu has it harder of course.

thunder isn't totally useless you can kindof air chase puff afte rlanding an upair/up-smash for extra damage. because most people will try to get readly to start bairing again it isn't to hard to predict/punish and then they start to doi the other way if hit.

puff isn't ice climbers vs pichu bad.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Dthrow techchase to swallow is pretty good. Gotta watchout for the return dair from the swallow lag though.

the best way to get swallow is utilt and make it look like youre going to utilt again and let them hit the ground, jab twice, then swallow.

falco def >> kirby btw. kirby can hold his own if the falco is inexperienced vs kirby, but otherwise falco *****.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think if Puff shields a lot against Pichu, Pichu fails immensely because none of his throws do anything at all whatsoever to Puff except like 10 damage whereas when Puff grabs Pichu, she can toss Pichu above her, or offstage, and then try to get under him and combo, or attempt an edgeguard or gimp on him. Even if she fails to outright kill him, any aerials she gets are like free damage and put him closer to being killed, and I don't think Pichu has anything that really matches that.

If Pichu tries to force KOs when she's at KO percent and attacks her shield with actual moves, she can outprioritize them with aerials OoS (especially if she has her back to him while doing this and Bairs OoS) or she can just punish him if it's an actual KO move (F-smash, U-smash) in his lag after (especially if she has her back to him and Bairs OoS).

Plus priority disparity and the usual Jigglypuff stuff.

 

[PEEF!]

Jiggs out of throw= double jump press down b then blow you up.

KK, for some reason I forgot Dthrow reverse dair CG because I'm an idiot. As long as nana was ready in time, thatd be good.

 

[t3h Icy]

Kirby > Link No one said this IIRC

Kirby is probably = Link if the Link doesn't feel like being a massive homo by spamming projectiles and running away the entire match. If Link does that it goes to Link > Kirby. You really have to devote yourself to running away and can get caught if Kirby manages to get the fence of pain set up. Actually fighting Kirby is just about not grabbing too often since it goes over him if he decides to crouch, not doing nairs because his utilt trades or hits through it and just spamming things like dsmash, fair and fsmash to keep him away from you.

10chars

10chars

 

[KirbyKaze]

You have it backwards.

 

[t3h Icy]

God****it. Thanks.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I think if Puff shields a lot against Pichu, Pichu fails immensely because none of his throws do anything at all whatsoever to Puff except like 10 damage whereas when Puff grabs Pichu, she can toss Pichu above her, or offstage, and then try to get under him and combo, or attempt an edgeguard or gimp on him. Even if she fails to outright kill him, any aerials she gets are like free damage and put him closer to being killed, and I don't think Pichu has anything that really matches that.

If Pichu tries to force KOs when she's at KO percent and attacks her shield with actual moves, she can outprioritize them with aerials OoS (especially if she has her back to him while doing this and Bairs OoS) or she can just punish him if it's an actual KO move (F-smash, U-smash) in his lag after (especially if she has her back to him and Bairs OoS).

Plus priority disparity and the usual Jigglypuff stuff.

pichu's throws can let him follow up at low percents. f-throw nair and up-throw dair(most of the time it has to be upair, 3% is 3 % maybe she will be high enough to do a running thunder) but yeah his throws are basically crap here when they are normally pretty good.

pichu has some form of sheild pressure that isn't totally unless. if pichu were to SHFFL a nairr into a sheild(we can both argee this can happen) nair should have a decent amount of sheild stun to act on 12% with 6 grames of lag AKA the super L-cancel then pichu has the fastest jab at 2 frames so after Nair he can act 7 frames after and it will have some stun so pichu should be kindof like fox there and grind her sheild. She would try to roll out and have taken a chunk out of her sheild maybe she rolls/jumps away try doing it again for a sheild stab or more pressure. hopwfully from behind puichu's jab is lower than his duck I think so he may be able to avoid a bair.

But I mostly have played puffs who mostly space bair and try to rest me(fail pichu isn't easy). but really pichu can run away forever i've done it on PS for like 2 minutes and she couldn't touch me, really pichu could be gayer than gay and projectile her just once and just run away forever, pity up-B hurts him that would make it like 4x easier to get away with this. just double up-b to high over to the other platforrm if puff jumps up go low or run. I've played some gay matches before on PS.

however pichu vs puff on dreamland64 is puff>>>pichu no matter what I say but people always ban that vs puff how hopefully they will to even if it's a great stage for pichu puff breaks it.

normal stages pichu<<puff. but hey KK I think i'll try to camp puff forever time even more so if she goes DL64 and somehow I didn't know they were puff. I want to win at least once by makeing the timer run down. But is that me or does that sound legit to run away from puff forever on PS? i've done it for long periods so their gaurd is down so I can nair them but never the whole match.

 

[Fletch]

puff isn't ice climbers vs pichu bad.

Wasn't this considered among the worst matchups in the game in the last chart? Why is that?

 

[KirbyKaze]

How the **** do you split IC with Pichu?

How the **** do you survive a chain grab with Pichu?

How the **** do you attack their shield with Pichu?

How the **** do you outcamp them with Pichu?

Plus normal priority disparities and other stuff that are common to Pichu's matchups.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

ice climbers hit pichu like 4 times and he dies, and I have no idea how pichu would even attack the ice climbers the only things going for him is nana can't deal with f-smash, nair is still good no matter what, projectile, but he lacks a way to get popo away from nana. Maybe down-smash at like 65%. pichu isn't like fox where he totally speed **** tyhe ice climbers. I just don't see that working out. I play as them and have a fairly firm idea how that would go.

maybe if pichu keep full hopping over them they would up-air and pichu couyld up-B under them and upair popo a bunch and keep nana on the ground and nair her till you can f-smash her. also they would go to Fd for a fact so the upair thing may work.

really pichu should lose and it isn't even because of the chain throws because they only have one chain throw on pichu LOL less than puff but's d-throw and grab again.


oh didn't see KK post but yeah I argee, attacking puffs sheild and ice climbers are very different.

 

[Fletch]

How the **** do you split IC with Pichu?

How the **** do you survive a chain grab with Pichu?

Doesn't d-smash work? And I would have thought he would be hard to chaingrab given his tiny size.

I don't know anything though I don't play either of these goofball characters.

 

[KirbyKaze]

D-throw D-smash (I think?) / Solo Popo D-throw CGs work on Pichu to like 50 or something IIRC and then you just do some gay finisher. Probably like Jab Blizzard D-throw U-smash unless PEEF, Fly, and Wobbles have somehow obsoleted that one.

D-smash is terrible against IC because then they'll hit you for it with WD OoS if you push them far or they'll shield grab if you don't.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

down-smash may work at very high percents it's a general rule don't touch the move till like 50% even still. oh yeah d-throw down-smash would work but hard to time.

really the only thing I could say to do is spam the crap out of B on pichu's part that and massive mindgames or shoot the player in the left knee cap.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Maybe you could do that D-throw F-smash regrab on Pichu and get him if he survival DIs at high percent. I dunno.

I think you can D-throw D-smash (the CG) --> F-smash with both of them as a finisher, maybe even after the Blizzard. I'm not sure though.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

KK it doesn't matter that info is more useless than the fact ice climbers can do the hand-off with b-throw on bowser. pichu just gets *****. and the ice climber player should put a bag over his head if he loses. ice climbers should be able to just finish him you could f-smash him out of a grab don't need to throw him for more dmage.

heck land 4 down-smashs next stock man. F*** grabs you should spam down-smash and ice blocks for a win.

but puff>>pichu or is that just me?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think it's worse, but I don't play Pichu or Puff much.

I don't think that U-throw Uair is particularly threatening and F-throw Nair isn't reliable because it's DI dependent. I guess putting Puff above you is good, I'll give you that. But it also does like 14-15% with no chance to KO and for each read you make to stay under her, you get 2-3% more. Maybe 8-12% if you hit a Nair. Still not really threatening considering how much work you have to put in just to get a follow. And it's probably not going to kill either. I'm also not really sure grabbing her is all that safe or easy, what with how much damage she can put on you if you miss, and the range disparity.

Puff has to make a pretty big mistake to get really punished by Nair --> Nair combos.

Rapid Jabs are fairly safe on block, sure, but they don't accomplish much. Again, you can't kill her with Rapid Jab. Moreover, you have to do the Nair somewhat late into her block at low percent for that to work, which runs the risk of her just attacking out of shield with safe retreating stuff like Fairs or whatever. Pichu's got low priority, so even Puff's less-prioritized aerials will work.

I'm not really sure that Pichu's ultimate runaway strat is also very good for timing Puff out because he puts damage on himself for using his lagless Up+B, which in turn means that using it too much can (if they're at equal stocks) remove the need for Puff to even approach, or put him into the percent where Puff can just KO him outright.

Jolts can be annoying.

I guess I just don't see how Pichu ever kills a really safe Puff. All of his stuff just seems to be annoyance and pestering, maybe damage racking here and there, but none of it has any potential to actually kill. He also has low combo potential, even for vs Puff standards.

I don't really care if it's written as Puff >> Pichu, to be honest. I'm just not sure how valid, "I can be annoying" is as a strategy.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I said I WISH I could use up-B to run away it would make everything like 4x easier. However i've never seen a pichu play gay besides me LOL i've made pichu dittos last 7 minutes on PS.

vs the very safe puffs like h-box or something like that I argee I really doubt pichu will get an up-smash. that's when pichu's runaway tactics would be amazing but as fastt as puff is in air she fails on ground.

but yeah vs safe puffs you'd have to camp her back till the timer runs out, vs not as safe puffs you can squeeze in and get an up-smash once in a while but still pretty rare. I geuss I could see how pichu<<<puff but in my head I see sheik/marth/peach/ice climbers are >>> and I think we can argee puff isn't sheik/ice climbers bad.

i'll play the match-up more if I can and then i'll come back if I think pichu<<puff.

but i'm not sure because I play pichu a bit different than most people I see. but as of now I think I can argee to puff>>>>pichu. I just thought about pichu being good at squeezing inbetween those walls and the rest punishment on pichu's behalf is amazing.

 

[P. O. F.]

How the **** do you split IC with Pichu?

How the **** do you survive a chain grab with Pichu?

How the **** do you attack their shield with Pichu?

How the **** do you outcamp them with Pichu?

Plus normal priority disparities and other stuff that are common to Pichu's matchups.

I love you KirbyKaze.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I would hope you love him, after all you need is love.

 

[Fletch]

Sorry for bringing this matchup up, lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

I said I WISH I could use up-B to run away it would make everything like 4x easier. However i've never seen a pichu play gay besides me LOL i've made pichu dittos last 7 minutes on PS.

vs the very safe puffs like h-box or something like that I argee I really doubt pichu will get an up-smash. that's when pichu's runaway tactics would be amazing but as fastt as puff is in air she fails on ground.

but yeah vs safe puffs you'd have to camp her back till the timer runs out, vs not as safe puffs you can squeeze in and get an up-smash once in a while but still pretty rare. I geuss I could see how pichu<<<puff but in my head I see sheik/marth/peach/ice climbers are >>> and I think we can argee puff isn't sheik/ice climbers bad.

i'll play the match-up more if I can and then i'll come back if I think pichu<<puff.

but i'm not sure because I play pichu a bit different than most people I see. but as of now I think I can argee to puff>>>>pichu. I just thought about pichu being good at squeezing inbetween those walls and the rest punishment on pichu's behalf is amazing.

I agree with you largely in that I don't think she's IC / Sheik / Peach bad.

Pichu to his credit gets points for being difficult to Rest and having a lagless Up+B that she can't just onstage Rest as an edgeguard. He is also very mobile and I haven't really considered Pichu just stalemating for a while, forever and ever. His Rest punishment is okay too.

*shrug*

I don't know much about Pichu beyond his shortcomings so I can't really discuss it further.

edit:

Sorry for bringing this matchup up, lol

Unless you're bringing up any of the following, do not feel bad for addressing a matchup. The taboo matchups are as follows:

Zelda vs Mewtwo
Zelda vs any character, but especially Mewtwo
Kirby vs Pichu
Dittos

Beyond those, everything is go.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Marth dittos are 100-0 favoring azen

 

[Divinokage]

Marth dittos are 100-0 favoring azen

It's funny how he applies his mindgames, =P

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

hmm pity there aren't any other pichu nerds out there. OMG kirby vs pichu I won't even go there today.

but puff vs pichu could easily be pichu>>puff or puff>>>pichu i'll say puff>>>pichu because you won't have to change it and it's like the rarest thing in smash to see a gay pichu player, heck i've never seen a match where pichu chain thrown a a FFer more than like one throw and then started combing

 

[smasher32]

Unless you're bringing up any of the following, do not feel bad for addressing a matchup. The taboo matchups are as follows:

Zelda vs Mewtwo
Zelda vs any character, but especially Mewtwo
Kirby vs Pichu
Dittos

Beyond those, everything is go.

But that match up is like the entire metagame

 

[giuocob]

Grand finals of Apex are gonna be Kirby v Pichu, we'd better get some matchup data out there now before it's too late!

 

[BunBun]

Kirby > Pichu.

 

[Let It Riot]

I think this thread needs less opining and more facts.

 

[BunBun]

I think this thread needs less opining and more facts.

Fact: Spelling is cool.



There are very few facts about coming up with matchups unless you want to go by perfect play. Almost everything is someone's opinion.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Grand finals of Apex are gonna be Kirby v Pichu, we'd better get some matchup data out there now before it's too late!

i'm not going and mango will beat armada so of course that's not happening LOL. but do I wish.

 

[giuocob]

i'm not going and mango will beat armada so of course that's not happening LOL. but do I wish.

Bet you didn't know Amsah secretly mains Pichu

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Bet you didn't know Amsah secretly mains Pichu

bet you didn't know I secretly play as sheik. o_O no joke, still don't know how to fight sheik even if sheik is fairly simple.
I think I won

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

There are very few facts about coming up with matchups unless you want to go by perfect play. Almost everything is someone's opinion.

This makes me wonder what exactly perfect play really is. Would it be like people play right now, just with perfect timing, spacing, etc, or would it be played radically different by say, computers? What if they play completely different? Like approach-wise

/tangent

 

[BunBun]

This makes me wonder what exactly perfect play really is. Would it be like people play right now, just with perfect timing, spacing, etc, or would it be played radically different by say, computers? What if they play completely different? Like approach-wise

/tangent

It's only doing things that are completely safe. Some characters vs others are able to remain completely 100% safe while being the aggressor, simply because a particular approach gives them the frame advantage no matter what their opponent tries to react with. Even with the opponent giving a frame-perfect response, he still will be at a disadvantage and hit/worn down.

Mindgames and playstyles cease to matter. Everything comes down to a this > this > this > this > this game.



Fortunately, that frame-perfect reaction is beyond the capabilities of humans that aren't Lovage.

 

[DarrellD]

Two falcons perfecting dash dancing around each other, never approaching because of fear of getting dash danced grabbed. Alot of matches might time out haha