Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Codi]

Thanks a lot AlphaZealot.

DK< Luigi
DK < Pikachu
DK> YL
DK = Link
Dk> Zelda
DK > G&W
DK >Mewtwo
DK > Roy
DK = Yoshi ????
DK >Ness,
DK >Bowser
DK >> Kirby
DK >Pichu

Luigi = Pikachu ???
Luigi > YL
Luigi > Link
Luigi >Zelda
Luigi >G&W
Luigi >Mewtwo
Luigi >Roy
Luigi >Yoshi
Luigi >Ness
Luigi >Bowser
Luigi >Kirby
Luigi >Pichu

YL < Link ??
YL = Zelda ??
YL >G&W
YL >Mewtwo
YL >Roy
YL >Yoshi
YL >Ness
YL >Bowser
YL >Kirby
YL >Pichu

 

[BunBun]

DK and Luigi both >> Kirby

Armada, your opinion?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

why, whats the actual reason, other than "ganon is higher tier'd" of course.

unknown atleast gave a reasonable arguement. you and kage of basically only said "no, you're wrong duh"
playing the devils advocate here.

ganon. he has a fist. and a pair of boots. and black (purple) magic.

He is the tallest character in the game with the most jointed range in the game and a lot of priority. a lot of bad characters simply have a very hard time getting in on his spacing because they lack the required range and speed to punish his stuff.

I can't believe i just had to explain who ganondorf was. He literally ***** everyone below him on the tier list simply because he is a good character who happens to be slow (punishable) by top tiers, but untouchable by those below him.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I agree with DK >> Kirby. It's a **** matchup.

 

[TheManaLord]

Falcon is way better than Mario. Don't think about yourself beasting on your Joe shmoe falcon main friend.

Think about top level. This has been established

 

[t3h Icy]

This is what I've gathered:

DK = Link
DK > Mewtwo
DK > Ness
DK > Yoshi
Kirby > Bowser
Kirby > Ness
Kirby = Roy
Kirby = Link
Kirby = Zelda
Luigi > Link
Mr.G&W >> Kirby
Pichu > Kirby
Pikachu > Kirby
Pikachu = Young Link
Young Link > Kirby
Young Link > Roy
Young Link > Zelda
Zelda > Mr.G&W

DK match-ups taken from MEXICAN's previous post.

EDIT: Fixed a few things.

 

[Dark Hart]

Zelda = YLink

and wtf Zelda at least > Kirby if not >>

 

[ChivalRuse]

Kirby can duck under most of Zelda's attacks; and the ones that he can't duck - he can usually avoid them on reaction.

 

[TheManaLord]

Yeah that's theory. I'd like to see someone win by constantly ducking

 

[Alphicans]

I am pretty sure y.link >> zelda...

 

[KAOSTAR]

Its M2>DK

I believe Mexican said M2>DK as well.

M2>zelda according to Umbreon, Taj, Myself, Vectorman

this is umbreon on my fiancee's laptop, allow me to intervene. I have played this matchup surprisingly few times. I did play Tony @ both mewtwo dittos (1-1) and zelda vs mewtwo (tiebreaker, 1-0) at one of the *pound* events forever ago. We discussed the match briefly and concluded that the match was decently close. However, any respectable Mewtwo player knows that so long as the opposing character does not have a single tactic to shut Mewtwo down, Mewtwo can do well against that character. As such Mewtwo, is an excellent choice against, say, ICs even if ICs are significantly higher on the tier list. I also got the opportunity to play mookierah in zelda vs mewtwo (2-0) and mikey lenetia in mewtwo vs zelda (2-0) at FC3, both of which I considered to be my relative equals for each character at the given time (forever and ever ago, july 2005).

me and tony also concluded that the match-up depends HEAVILY on the ability of the mewtwo player, but that zelda's role remains static as that character often does. This means that, in theory and at higher level play, mewtwo controls the tempo of the match and should be able to offset what we both considered to be a fairly close match, putting the match in mewtwo's favor.

I do largely agree that mewtwo wins this match if that player makes note to abuse that level of control. of course, if any of you mewtwo players want to try my zelda, I'll **** you up.

dogy if anyone is going to troll MD it shouldn't be a mod or a MBR member that I added. Go report yourself for being bad.

 

[NJzFinest]

what do you mean "how do you kill with mario?" use your smashes. F-smash has range and can easily beat DK's b-air. You can u-tilt/u-smash him at many different points.

Those are ****ing weak moves being used on a ****ing weak character.

His b-air is his only good ranged move, which requires DK to be in the air.

Ftilt and Giant Punch? Even Dtilt outranges Mario. His Nair isn't even that good and that move does too. I'm pretty sure has grab alone has more length then most of Mario's moves haha.
It requires DK to be in the air, true... and? Doesn't that go for almost every aerial approach for most characters? lmao It's not like he's Samus, being able to only jump really high and stay up there for hours.

Also, it is incredibly easy to edgeguard DK with pretty much every character in the game.

Incredibly wrong.

You can take the ledge, or hit him out of his up-b, whether he goes high or low.

If you take the ledge, you'll get hit by him. If try to hit him out of his upB while standing on the stage, you won't touch him. DK can float a good length away from the edge while just hovering and still grab it. It makes moves such as Samus's uptilt, Marth's fsmash, Peach's dsmash, Falco's dsmash, etc. impossible to touch him and guarantee's a safe recovery. It makes players way better than me go "wtf" when I'm playing them haha, cause no one is aware of this and assumes a horizontally recovering monkey should die instantly.
So, this means Mario has to go off stage... and nothing has enough priority or range to even knock we well placed UpB.

Oh, did we forget the part were DK has a easy time edgeguarding Mario? heh

Also, they both take about the same amount of time to kill each other, but mario has better combos for sure. He also doesn't always have to grab to set them up, whereas DK does. It's also not easy for them to grab each other.

DK kills earlier then Mario... combined with the fact that Mario is lighter... um, yeah.
I never said Mario doesn't have the combos and yes, he doesn't always need a grab, but he still has trouble even landing a hit. As I said, Mario combos basically everyone well. But when it comes to characters with more priority and range, it's kinda... ehhhh. And, explain to me how it's hard to grab Mario? DD grab missed aerial or shieldgrab, yay for characters with 0 range.

He still needs to get INSIDE of DK. And if Mario is in the air/above DK, prepared to get *****.

IMO, 60-40 DK

 

[BunBun]

Kirby > Bowser jury still out
Kirby > Ness jury still out
Kirby = Roy possibly Kirby > Roy
Kirby = Zelda lolwut?

Soo....wat?

 

[Dark Hart]

Hey look, the Zelda player with experience against YLink says it's even.

Personally I believe it's one of the most stage dependent match-ups in the game. The smaller the stage, the better Zelda is going to do. YS and FoD are favorable personally for quicker kills. Not to mention, YLink lack of killing power arguably gives Zelda an advantage on larger stages as well.

But wait... the match-ups looking to be in Zelda's favor the way I'm explaining it... hmm... an omen?

 

[NJzFinest]

Zelda is spamcombo to YLink bait.

Zelda is one of the worst characters when it comes to dealing with fast moving characters with projectiles.

She's too slow to catch up and a decently large target.

Hmm, I don't know. haha, I'll take = but we'll see what others say (if they say anything xD).

 

[otg]

NJz.

The way any character edgeguards DK is just by grabbing the ledge, refreshing invincibility frames and then hit him with an aerial as he tries to come with said invincibility frames. It is in no way safe.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Njz is just a troll, he isnt even a real person to me anymore.

edit:

LOL, I can't wait to play you. Funny thing is that it doesn't even matter that it is M2's advantage. I'm just plain better.

Another vote for m2 >zelda

 

[FoxLisk]

1. edgeguarding DK isn't easy. it looks easy until you play a DK who can DI. it's kind of like falcon - it's theoretically really easy to edgeguard, but all the top falcons DI amazingly well and make it fairly challenging. I remember a match where Zhu (I think; some top falco) failed to edgeguard Mango effectively. And that's not "just because it's Mango," because there's no OP mindgames/tech skill/predicts on edgeguards, it's just smart recovery and DI. If he's above the stage, it's suddenly not easy to edgeguard, and he can DI to survive and then recover from relatively high repeatedly. DK can do the same thing, and his Up-B is way harder to get through than falcon's (although still admittedly not super hard).

2. I know it was an accident of how this discussion is going, but having the portion of the chart we're currently discussing directly on a recent page makes the discussion seem more relevant and easier to reference. I vote this continues when we move on to more "important" matchups

3. I'm drunk so if I sound stupid it's at least partially the beer talking -_-

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falcon actually is easy to edgeguard even if he DIs well though. You just have to not be stupid and know how to make reads and cover options.

 

[KirbyKaze]

stuff

Falcon is stupidly easy to edgeguard. If he cannot edgecancel, you can literally wait for him to land, then do a really strong move to hit him off, and repeat. Or combo him forever depending on character. Or a mix of both.

You can't compare DK's recovery to Falcon's because DK doesn't have anything remotely resembling the horrendous landing lag of a Falcon Up+B and has an active hitbox on the move for a while whereas Falcon hopes he can hump you and if it doesn't happen he's a sitting duck until he touches the stage and half a second after.

 

[Winston]

@ KK

Falcon might be stupidly easy to edgeguard for Sheik, but not every character can edgeguard him as easily. You see good players miss edgeguards vs Falcon with Marth, Peach, and some other characters. Or do you disagree with that?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Double post: **** smashboards.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't know Peach vs Falcon but I'm pretty sure that Fox, Falco, Falcon, Sheik, and Jigglypuff all **** Falcon's recovery in a brutal fashion. In addition to having the ability to jump off with strong, potentially comboing aerials and intercept Falcon Kicks and Up+Bs and wreck him from there, they also all have very strong onstage edgeguarding so they can let him land and then **** punish.

I tend to think Marth has great edgeguarding on almost every character that can be edgeguarded but Marths seem to fail horribly at edgeguarding Falcon routinely so I dunno. I guess I'd lump him with Peach in the "I dunno lol" pile.

I also think Ganon's edgeguard on Falcon is also really good because his moves do monster damage with great knockback, they cover a huge amount of space so his drifting can be neutralized by it, and Stomp is the best onstage lag punish ever if we exclude Ice Climber infinites and Jigglypuff's Rest because when it combos to Fair it does like 40% with beastly knockback and that's really good for killing people.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Njz is just a troll, he isnt even a real person to me anymore

Carl > you

 

[KAOSTAR]

Carl > you

Nice dude.

 

[NJzFinest]

It's really hard to describe DK's recovery. It's a feeling mang.

You'll have to watch DK vids. Or me vs a top player. It's basically me getting 1 kill while surviving till like 250%+ most stocks xD

edit:

Watch RockCrock's DK, I'm so lazy right now.

edit2:

In response to otg->
If DK is hovering near the ledge, you can't grab it, you'll get hit by his spinning hands.
If you already grabbed it way before DK even starts his doublejump+UpB, DK will recover high and abuse the fact he has decent aerial mobility when falling + very little lag. Similiar to what Falcon's do except they need platform cancels.

It gets tricky because you have to beat DK to the ledge and you can only hit him when you still have the invincibility (for the most part).

I don't even think I explained that right, Mexican might be mad at me. knihT played RockCrock (probably the best DK now) and gave a good example of why it's hard to edgehog DK. Too lazy to look for that post though. It's really wierd to explain.

 

[Animal]

dk is so whack

 

[NJzFinest]

I think Link, YLink, Pikachu, and maybe Zelda might be better characters.

 

[Magus420]

Falcon is stupidly easy to edgeguard. If he cannot edgecancel, you can literally wait for him to land, then do a really strong move to hit him off, and repeat. Or combo him forever depending on character. Or a mix of both. You can't compare DK's recovery to Falcon's because DK doesn't have anything remotely resembling the horrendous landing lag of a Falcon Up+B and has an active hitbox on the move for a while whereas Falcon hopes he can hump you and if it doesn't happen he's a sitting duck until he touches the stage and half a second after.

If you wait for him to land he can tech most things that aren't grab/knee/rest/shine/vertical KO move pretty well though.

Like that =D

Spoiler

Peach sucks

 

[ChivalRuse]

Its M2>DK

I believe Mexican said M2>DK as well.

M2>zelda according to Umbreon, Taj, Myself, Vectorman

Now that Iori's won a tournament going basically all Mewtwo, I think I'm ready to believe anything at this point.

 

[Mind Trick]

only things I would change for yoshi:
Peach >> Yoshi
Samus >> Yoshi
DK > Yoshi
Mewtwo = Yoshi
Yoshi > Pichu

 

[Skler]

Allow me to lay down some Link love.

Mario > Link- Link has no way of landing ANY of his kill moves ever. Mario is too floaty to combo reliably after about 50 and he will hit you out of your own throws early on. Link just can't combo the guy and has no good way of killing. Mario can combo Link at any % and can kill out of a grab around 100 via dthrow -> fsmash. The spam is pretty much equal, you have to be brain dead to get hit by fireballs when your nair tears through them, but it removes Link's ability to control with projectiles.

Link < YLink- I've explained this a thousand times. YL can run away and spam while landing combos off his amazing bombs. Link can't do that at all. YL just has to be willing to play gay.

Link < Ganon- Ganon just kills you way too early and has a chain grab. Link's spam is pretty gay, but you eventually run out of stage and start getting punched. Besides, a free 30% or so isn't all that much when Ganon survives until 130ish. It's really stage dependent though. Give Link FD or maybe DL64 and it should be a rough match for Ganon. Give Ganon Yoshi's or Brinstar and Link's spam is suddenly gone.

DK = Link- Depends too much on stage. DK is a big target and not too difficult to shield stab if you wear his shield down at all. DK's grab combos are stupid good vs Link and he can edgeguard Link extremely well. Playing keep away is fairly effective against DK, Link just needs the space.

Link < Luigi- Can't be comboed, can combo Link, has kill moves to combo into and can edgeguard Link. Link can spam but Luigi crosses most stages in three WDs. Most of Luigi's moves clank with Link's and guess who's faster (hint: Link is ****ing slow).

Link = Pika- Link outdoes Pika on the ground by miles and miles. Unfortunately once off the stage he's tail bait. In the air Pika's uair is king. Link may have overall better moves but Pika has enough mobility to get around most of Link's tried and true tactics (nair spam, spamming nairs and spamming double nairs).

Link < or = GaW- I have a hard time deciding what it is. GaW's moveset seems to have been designed to counter Link, it's just that the character itself is so utterly trashy that Link can beat it up. The fair outranges all of Link's options and tears through projectiles. Link also kills GaW at about 80%. The parachute is easy to combo into and KOs fairly early. Link shieldstabs GaW on accident the majority of the time. GaW can edgeguard Link due to his stupid good upB, the fair and the parachute. Link's uair beats every one of GaW's moves in the air and combos into itself if you're near the ground. GaW's grab game is insane effective. If Link lands a grab he can generally do a dair or a combo worth about 40%.

What a stupid matchup.

Kirby is probably = Link if the Link doesn't feel like being a massive homo by spamming projectiles and running away the entire match. If Link does that it goes to Link > Kirby. You really have to devote yourself to running away and can get caught if Kirby manages to get the fence of pain set up. Actually fighting Kirby is just about not grabbing too often since it goes over him if he decides to crouch, not doing nairs because his utilt trades or hits through it and just spamming things like dsmash, fair and fsmash to keep him away from you.

I'll talk about other MUs as they're brought up. Link is weird.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

you should explain those. But I wtf at it saying pikachu<ice climbers that's insane when you say fox>>pikachu. pikachu vs ice climbers is at least ice climbers>>pikachu they **** him.

also how is pichu vs puff/falcon pichu<<<them??? falcon is one of pichu's best match-ups pichu like pikachu can do some nasty combos on falcon and pichu is really hard for falcon to hit and it isn't that easy to chain throw pichu as falcon, in truth it's easier for pichu to chain throw falcon. pichu WON'T get edge gaurded anytime soon in this match-up unlike falcon.really falcon has the favor because he lasts longs wieght/damage output. I think it should at least be Pichu<<falcon because pichu<<<falcon is terrible it's not like pichu can't keep up with falcon or it's like sheik grabbing him.


Puff vs pichu. keep in mind pichu is in fact the hardest to rest(size wise) and he is also one of the best rest punishers in the game. At 25% any where/ any stage side-B will kill puff and if it doesn't 39% is pretty freakin sweet. Basically how I deal with puff is to nair/B her and switch up between stayying close and just running away for a minute then you pop her in the head when she isn't expecting it and to wd under her when she is bairing to an up-smash or I use up-B to get under her. keep in mind pichu is built to breakdown spaceing walls like fox is.

puff should be puff>>pichu no way is puff in the same league of sheik/ice climbers vs pichu

 

[P. O. F.]

Kirby is underrated like hell

I am serious.

Kirby have advantage against Bowser,M2,Ness,Roy.

Kirby is way better than people give him credit for.

I agree with this but I still think there is a strong argument for him being the worst character in the game along w pichu.

Has anyone ever played PC's Kirby? It's dumb. lol.

Pichu is UNDERRATED

Do you ever stop hyping Pichu and saying he's underrated? Hes a bad character.

Get Over It

 

[NJzFinest]

I'll go with anything Skler says.

He's the sexiest Link.

edit:

This is what Mexican thinks for DK. I agree for the most part:

dk<<<falco
dk<<<sheik
dk<<fox maybe dk<fox
dk<marth maybe dk <<marth
dk<falcon
dk<jiggs
dk<ic's
dk<<peach
dk=samus, maybe dk>samus but slightly
dk<ganon
dk>>luigi
dk>>roy
dk>>bowser
dk>>>pichu
dk<mewtwo (that just being based off of taj beating me, lol)
dk=dk
dk<pikachu maybe dk=pikachu (i don't really know this matchup)
dk>ness
dk>>zelda
dk>mario
dk=doc
dk>>GaW (don't really know this matchup either)
dk>>kirby
dk>link
dk>ylink
dk>>yosh


I think the Links are = or < Link/YLink. Marth is only < (wish M2K could talk about this matchup haha, he hates Marth vs DK). DK prolly = Mewtwo.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Do you ever stop hyping Pichu and saying he's underrated? Hes a bad character.

Get Over It

I've never said pichu is underrated. Who gives a F*** if someone is underrated anyways? I don't try and say oh pichu is only worse because he is mad underrated WTF??? Noooo he sucks because he sucks lack of players have to do with it but at current metagame we don't say ohhh he would be better with more players... that's like saying the ice climbers would be unstoppable with de-synces both are true, BUT none have happened so you can't say thats a reason they should move up.


being under/over rated shouldn't be added in for match-ups/the tier list. that's basically playing theory with just one persons veiws that are about what ifs. armada shouldn't use that as a reason, it's noob like.

also the reason why people don't give _____ credit is because they don't know anything about them of course they will be underated. No one plays as freaking kirby.

don't forget to mow the lawn.


at njzfinest don't talk about match-ups unless you have played them before a few times otherwise don't post about them because you don't know and when someone who does know comes by they will debate it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

you should explain those. But I wtf at it saying pikachu<ice climbers that's insane when you say fox>>pikachu. pikachu vs ice climbers is at least ice climbers>>pikachu they **** him.

also how is pichu vs puff/falcon pichu<<<them??? falcon is one of pichu's best match-ups pichu like pikachu can do some nasty combos on falcon and pichu is really hard for falcon to hit and it isn't that easy to chain throw pichu as falcon, in truth it's easier for pichu to chain throw falcon. pichu WON'T get edge gaurded anytime soon in this match-up unlike falcon.really falcon has the favor because he lasts longs wieght/damage output. I think it should at least be Pichu<<falcon because pichu<<<falcon is terrible it's not like pichu can't keep up with falcon or it's like sheik grabbing him.


Puff vs pichu. keep in mind pichu is in fact the hardest to rest(size wise) and he is also one of the best rest punishers in the game. At 25% any where/ any stage side-B will kill puff and if it doesn't 39% is pretty freakin sweet. Basically how I deal with puff is to nair/B her and switch up between stayying close and just running away for a minute then you pop her in the head when she isn't expecting it and to wd under her when she is bairing to an up-smash or I use up-B to get under her. keep in mind pichu is built to breakdown spaceing walls like fox is.

puff should be puff>>pichu no way is puff in the same league of sheik/ice climbers vs pichu

Wow. I didn't know Pichu's side-b did 39% fully charged.

I approve of this post.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

non charged it somehow beats rollout fully charged looking at hitbox data and everything i'm totally confused just like how pichu's up-tilt clanks with marth's f-smash.

 

[NJzFinest]

at njzfinest don't talk about match-ups unless you have played them before a few times otherwise don't post about them because you don't know and when someone who does know comes by they will debate it.

1. You're the last person to be should telling me this.
2. I don't need to be told this / explain why I need be told this. Since when haven't I played the matchups I refuted? Who else posting here has as much DK experience?
3. Pichu sucks.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't know Peach vs Falcon but I'm pretty sure that Fox, Falco, Falcon, Sheik, and Jigglypuff all **** Falcon's recovery in a brutal fashion. In addition to having the ability to jump off with strong, potentially comboing aerials and intercept Falcon Kicks and Up+Bs and wreck him from there, they also all have very strong onstage edgeguarding so they can let him land and then **** punish.

I tend to think Marth has great edgeguarding on almost every character that can be edgeguarded but Marths seem to fail horribly at edgeguarding Falcon routinely so I dunno. I guess I'd lump him with Peach in the "I dunno lol" pile.

I also think Ganon's edgeguard on Falcon is also really good because his moves do monster damage with great knockback, they cover a huge amount of space so his drifting can be neutralized by it, and Stomp is the best onstage lag punish ever if we exclude Ice Climber infinites and Jigglypuff's Rest because when it combos to Fair it does like 40% with beastly knockback and that's really good for killing people.

Marth's edgeguarding is overrated as far as I'm concerned. If you can make it ambiguous as to whether or not you will recover low or high, he cannot gimp you consistently at all. Provided you don't **** up your DI, he can only gimp you with D-air, tipper F-smash, or charged Shieldbreaker, which all have rather poor ability to cover offstage options for the most part. Otherwise most of his aerials if you DI them well will generally help knock you higher provided you avoid a Ken combo.

Mario and Doc are two characters you did not mention who have better edgeguarding especially against Falcon. Both characters can cover his low recovery (and his high recovery for that matter) safely with B-airs, and one B-air from either character whether he recovers high or low is generally enough to guarantee a gimp on him. Both characters are also have VERY good options for punishing Falcon if he lands on stage due to their solid combo games.