Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

perfect play it's impossible to win unless their sheild doesn't fully close them. But if pichu goes and Sh hops at marth he could jab, but pichu would air dodge, sheild pichu would do nothing and spotdodge his grab or jab him, if marth waits for landing lag pichu would airdodge marth's attack becuase marth has to have the first frame of his attack out. marth couldn't attack a pichu Shing he would have to wd back away. However becuase of the fact other people have 4 frames lag when they land he may be able to punish that.

in truth the best people should be puff/fox because of their one frame attack, however people could SDI into a tech and rack up a lot of damage and kill her so she would be worse than fox.

pichu would also do better than he should due to low lag/solid sheild, fastest jabng lag.

bowser wouldn't be broken because he can't land that first hit in perfect play the only people who would really lose of people you can sheild stab a lot and can't powersheild.

it would basically be like watching a game of chess where both players only have a king and a queeen they would keep defending and attacking at the same time but never getting anywhere closer.

also ice climbers de-synces would be game breaking becuase they can't powersheild and avoid a grab at the same frame, basically ice block grab buffer d-throw so they can't break out and follow up with the hand-off or d-throw regrab anything else won't work.

 

[unknown522]

Those are ****ing weak moves being used on a ****ing weak character.

Ftilt and Giant Punch? Even Dtilt outranges Mario. His Nair isn't even that good and that move does too. I'm pretty sure has grab alone has more length then most of Mario's moves haha.
It requires DK to be in the air, true... and? Doesn't that go for almost every aerial approach for most characters? lmao It's not like he's Samus, being able to only jump really high and stay up there for hours.

Incredibly wrong.

If you take the ledge, you'll get hit by him. If try to hit him out of his upB while standing on the stage, you won't touch him. DK can float a good length away from the edge while just hovering and still grab it. It makes moves such as Samus's uptilt, Marth's fsmash, Peach's dsmash, Falco's dsmash, etc. impossible to touch him and guarantee's a safe recovery. It makes players way better than me go "wtf" when I'm playing them haha, cause no one is aware of this and assumes a horizontally recovering monkey should die instantly.
So, this means Mario has to go off stage... and nothing has enough priority or range to even knock we well placed UpB.

Oh, did we forget the part were DK has a easy time edgeguarding Mario? heh

DK kills earlier then Mario... combined with the fact that Mario is lighter... um, yeah.
I never said Mario doesn't have the combos and yes, he doesn't always need a grab, but he still has trouble even landing a hit. As I said, Mario combos basically everyone well. But when it comes to characters with more priority and range, it's kinda... ehhhh. And, explain to me how it's hard to grab Mario? DD grab missed aerial or shieldgrab, yay for characters with 0 range.

He still needs to get INSIDE of DK. And if Mario is in the air/above DK, prepared to get *****.

IMO, 60-40 DK

wow. In one ear and out the other. It'd take forever to explain what's wrong with multiple sentences.

If you think it's so great for DK, then let's MM at Apex

 

[Armada]

Silent Wolf: "all of this. especially the last couple parts. you really cant know until you play kirby and are actually good with him"

If i understand this right you mean i can´t say that without playing kirby (if i have understood this wrong i will give you a apology) and i agree BUT have you ever seen my kirby play?

Do you know how much i have play with him?
I have experience with Kirby (in friendlis but still you learn from the firendlis) and i know what i am talking about.

If you don´t believe me you can ask Amsah for example even if that was friendlis i think Amsah will give my kirby some cred.

( and if i understood you in a wrong way just say it).

 

[BunBun]

Silent Wolf: "all of this. especially the last couple parts. you really cant know until you play kirby and are actually good with him"

If i understand this right you mean i can´t say that without playing kirby (if i have understood this wrong i will give you a apology) and i agree BUT have you ever seen my kirby play?

Do you know how much i have play with him?
I have experience with Kirby (in friendlis but still you learn from the firendlis) and i know what i am talking about.

If you don´t believe me you can ask Amsah for example even if that was friendlis i think Amsah will give my kirby some cred.

( and if i understood you in a wrong way just say it).

Armada, he was agreeing with you. "You really can't know" is casual English for "One really can't know", not you, Armada.

 

[P. O. F.]

I'm pretty much skipping all posts that are not kirbykaze now. (Shrug) lol

This thread was maddd cool for a while now all the important mus are done so no one cares anymore.

I'm still loling at jigs BEATING marth and marth vs roy only plus 2.

Honestly, I'm not trying to sound all powerful and all knowing but most marths are not familiar w match up statistics imo aside from ib, hbk, and zoso. M2k is the king of dealing w spacies and sheik but outside of that loses to jigs and peach. Wtf?

Meta game has changed, yes but marth is still top tier imo. I've seen marths play jigs and simply not be good at this match up. Its fairly easy to keep jigs out and I'm decent against top jigs such as darc or hbox. I've mmed them both and didn't get *****. Except game 2 vs darc. He's dumb. Lol.

Anyway, marths meta game hasn't changed much but I still believe he's a stronger character than sheik, falcon, and peach for sure. Could be an argument for sheik and jigs but he's better than falcon and peach etc without a doubt.

 

[Let It Riot]

Fact: Spelling is cool.



There are very few facts about coming up with matchups unless you want to go by perfect play. Almost everything is someone's opinion.

o·pine (-pn)
v. o·pined, o·pin·ing, o·pines
v.tr.
To state as an opinion.
v.intr.
To express an opinion: opined on the defendant's testimony.

Ripped

 

[KAOSTAR]

Silent Wolf: "all of this. especially the last couple parts. you really cant know until you play kirby and are actually good with him"

If i understand this right you mean i can´t say that without playing kirby (if i have understood this wrong i will give you a apology) and i agree BUT have you ever seen my kirby play?

Do you know how much i have play with him?
I have experience with Kirby (in friendlis but still you learn from the firendlis) and i know what i am talking about.

If you don´t believe me you can ask Amsah for example even if that was friendlis i think Amsah will give my kirby some cred.

( and if i understood you in a wrong way just say it).

It was probably a bit confusing. He was agreeing with you saying that kirby is underrated. Other ppl say kirby is a bad character, but they dont really know what they are talking about because they havent played with him at top level.

Unless you're bringing up any of the following, do not feel bad for addressing a matchup. The taboo matchups are as follows:

Zelda vs Mewtwo
Zelda vs any character, but especially Mewtwo
Kirby vs Pichu
Dittos

Beyond those, everything is go.

So I was thinking, umm, if its not tooo much trouble.

Lets call it M2 vs Zelda because overall m2 is a better character and he has a slight advantage on zelda. I mean you wouldnt want to disrespect the champion by putting the challengers name first.

nahmean

 

[ZoSo]

I'm still loling at jigs BEATING marth and marth vs roy only plus 2.

Honestly, I'm not trying to sound all powerful and all knowing but most marths are not familiar w match up statistics imo aside from ib, hbk, and zoso. M2k is the king of dealing w spacies and sheik but outside of that loses to jigs and peach. Wtf?

Meta game has changed, yes but marth is still top tier imo. I've seen marths play jigs and simply not be good at this match up. Its fairly easy to keep jigs out and I'm decent against top jigs such as darc or hbox. I've mmed them both and didn't get *****. Except game 2 vs darc. He's dumb. Lol.

Anyway, marths meta game hasn't changed much but I still believe he's a stronger character than sheik, falcon, and peach for sure. Could be an argument for sheik and jigs but he's better than falcon and peach etc without a doubt.

I actually agree with Jiggs beating Marth. Marth has all the same problems he has in other matchups (slow, vulnerable in the air, lacks safe KO options), but they're exaggerated because he can't edgeguard Puff and his grab game is virtually useless. The reality of it is that you WILL eventually mess up/guess wrong and probably die or eat massive punishment, which is why the best Marths don't beat the best Puffs.

 

[P. O. F.]

True dave, I agree that Marth does get ***** if he messes up vs top levels jigs but I think marth just needs to keep his distance, get a lead and never approach and he's fine. A lead vs jigs as marth is incredible. Jigs does not have an answer to a retreating fair. I think grabs as marth vs jigs are underrated. Yes, a grab may be deadly by either a cc rest or fsmash but you just minimize your grabs and train the jigs to think you will not rest.

Uair is also incredible vs jigs. Especially on fd because she really has no way around it if its spaced properly.

I see it as an even match up. Marth definitely does not **** her as hard as he used to but I think he's a strong cp against her. It basically comes down to who spaces better and if marth can create that "wall" of aerials when she's recovering both vertically and horizontally.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

There is no way Jigglypuff can beat a fade back fair without having a projectile.

Marth had the advantage for sure.

M2k just sucks vs players better than him.

 

[NJzFinest]

If you think it's so great for DK, then let's MM at Apex

I'm down

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Matchups should be explained by theoretical zone patterns.

 

[ChaosNoobSlayer]

Matchups should be explained by theoretical zone patterns.

Can you elaborate on that, I dont quite understand what you mean?

 

[Merkuri]

Can you elaborate on that, I dont quite understand what you mean?

You didn't understand because it didn't make any sense.

Anyone else think Falcon >> Luigi. It's a terrible match up because Luigi so slidey that he can't Punish falcon's aerials out of shied. His slow falling speed makes him awful combo bait and Falcon has such an easy time edge guarding him if: he just hops on the ledge, wait for Luigi to missile on to the stage and then knee him. Luigi doesn't really have anything that is particularly effective on Falcon.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

You didn't understand because it didn't make any sense.

lol troll .

 

[Merkuri]

Yeah I'm trolling Sveet now because he trolls me. I don't see why I should sit back and ignore his trolling. Two can play this game.

 

[Wenbobular]

You didn't understand because it didn't make any sense.

Anyone else think Falcon >> Luigi. It's a terrible match up because Luigi so slidey that he can't Punish falcon's aerials out of shied. His slow falling speed makes him awful combo bait and Falcon has such an easy time edge guarding him if: he just hops on the ledge, wait for Luigi to missile on to the stage and then knee him. Luigi doesn't really have anything that is particularly effective on Falcon.

Luigi has mad techchases on Falcon ...

That being said, Falcon can jump out of Dsmash if he DI's to the side, but I don't know if you can get away from Utilt and obviously Luigi has DI mixups like Uair -> chop or just going straight in with a Dair and hoping you miss the DI if you expect a combo ... but even if you do miss the DI, Falcon is sooo heavy

I think it's much more effective just going out there and kneeing him as he charges the missile - the knee hithox stays out long enough that you should be fine even if it misfires

Anyways, I would tend to agree, but Luigi isn't exactly combo bait in my opinion ... you can't really chain aerials together vs Luigi because he can usually just Nair out of repeated aerials. ..Nair -> Knee ***** in this matchup though

I'd probably give it like 1.5 > signs haha

 

[KAOSTAR]

@Merkuri-Sveet is a much better troll than you.

also my understanding is that ignoring them will cause them to get bored. Sometimes its fun to play along.

IMO this is a fight you won't win. Unless you are VBM.

 

[Merkuri]

Luigi has mad techchases on Falcon ...

That being said, Falcon can jump out of Dsmash if he DI's to the side, but I don't know if you can get away from Utilt and obviously Luigi has DI mixups like Uair -> chop or just going straight in with a Dair and hoping you miss the DI if you expect a combo ... but even if you do miss the DI, Falcon is sooo heavy

I think it's much more effective just going out there and kneeing him as he charges the missile - the knee hithox stays out long enough that you should be fine even if it misfires

Anyways, I would tend to agree, but Luigi isn't exactly combo bait in my opinion ... you can't really chain aerials together vs Luigi because he can usually just Nair out of repeated aerials. ..Nair -> Knee ***** in this matchup though

I'd probably give it like 1.5 > signs haha

Luigi's tech chasing on Falcon isn't any better than his tech chasing in any mother character and I think you're overestimating it's importance.

I agree that Luigi has some decent combos on Falcon but Falcon's combos on Luigi's are away worse. And Falcon can chain areials on Luigi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh00YgVQbLQ

And the point of this video isn't Falcon >> Luigi. It's Falcon combos Lugi really well hence the fact that mango is Falcon isn't important.

@Merkuri-Sveet is a much better troll than you.

also my understanding is that ignoring them will cause them to get bored. Sometimes its fun to play along.

IMO this is a fight you won't win. Unless you are VBM.

Haha and people say I'm the one who takes things too seriously.

And you say Sveet is the better troll but you've never actually seen me when I am trying to troll. And I don't care if I lose to him or not, the point is that it will make me feel better.

 

[KirbyKaze]

hmm pity there aren't any other pichu nerds out there. OMG kirby vs pichu I won't even go there today.

but puff vs pichu could easily be pichu>>puff or puff>>>pichu i'll say puff>>>pichu because you won't have to change it and it's like the rarest thing in smash to see a gay pichu player, heck i've never seen a match where pichu chain thrown a a FFer more than like one throw and then started combing

*shrug*

If that's how you feel.

But that match up is like the entire metagame

Obvious jibe is obvious.

Grand finals of Apex are gonna be Kirby v Pichu, we'd better get some matchup data out there now before it's too late!

Get ready for some boring matches.

Kirby > Pichu.

Pichu = Kirby

They are the same character.

I think this thread needs less opining and more facts.

We have very few facts left. We exhausted them when we stopped talking about real characters. Mario isn't actually in this game, people just think he is. Same applies to DK and a whole bunch of others.

People probably won't compromise or understand opposing perspectives in arguments revolving around these characters (see: Unknown522 vs NJzFinest) because opinion is all you got at this point. We don't have an active, nationally recognized DK, nor do we have a Mario. Consequently, we don't have a voice of authority to step in and possibly guide discussion. They're not popular characters to begin with, so we don't even have a large populace with lots of experience to explain details. We wind up with... opinions. Scary, nasty, diverse, and possibly uninformed opinions, and from limited sources. There may be good, true facts interspersed, but hell if I can pick out what's correct in a matchup I've never seen before, much less between two good representatives of the character.

It was probably a bit confusing. He was agreeing with you saying that kirby is underrated. Other ppl say kirby is a bad character, but they dont really know what they are talking about because they havent played with him at top level.

So I was thinking, umm, if its not tooo much trouble.

Lets call it M2 vs Zelda because overall m2 is a better character and he has a slight advantage on zelda. I mean you wouldnt want to disrespect the champion by putting the challengers name first.

nahmean

That's lovely. Discuss it in the joke topi-- I mean, the Zelda vs Mewtwo topic.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Get ready for some boring matches.

Well, it would be a step up from *Pound* 4 Grand Finals.

Besides, Pichu can nair combo Kirby. It's pretty sweet. It would be intense, too, because of a possible grabicide at any time!

 

[ChaosNoobSlayer]

I saw Ka master get wrecked by Darkraing pretty hard. Luigi is probably decently disadvantaged vs Captain Falcon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X14IxVHEt7Q

 

[Wenbobular]

I'm overestimating it's importance? I'm saying that Falcon has a slow *** techroll and Luigi has a decent punish game on Falcon

What are you trying to prove with that video? I think I saw maybe 2 Uair chains and a stomp -> knee, saying that Falcon's combos on Luigi are way worse is quite the stretch. I think what's more important is that the basics (Nair -> knee, stomp knee) are still there, but Luigi is by no means "combo fodder" ... that's Marth we're talking about

Luigi's combo DI is also pretty unintuitive - he's so floaty that you sometimes you want to actually hold in, because holding away actually puts you at like, perfect height to get Uair'd across the stage ...

I don't see the argument for >> , which I think means a totally **** matchup. They both have good punish games, they both have good edgeguards, Luigi just has to work harder to get the hit which I believe warrants a > but not >>

Still hoping for a 1.5 >

 

[otg]

Normally whenever someone links me a video to a matchup as evidence supporting their claim I laugh, but whenever its a Mango vid? It's done.

 

[ChaosNoobSlayer]

YOU MAD?

I dont know how you were able to refute so much of my argument, seeing as how I didnt make one. Ka Master and Dark Rain are probably decently close in skill and are at the top of the meta game with their respective characters.

I was only suggesting that maybe it was Falcon>>Luigi. I dont play either of those characters so I wouldnt know from experience.

(Well I think everyone kinda plays falcon )

 

[Wenbobular]

Dude
I was talking to Merkuri, chill
Also it's impossible to read your dark blue text on black

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Also it's impossible to read your dark blue text on black

Sounds like a personal problem to me. Besides, its a known fact that falcon RRAapes Luigi.

 

[ChaosNoobSlayer]

Dude
I was talking to Merkuri, chill
Also it's impossible to read your dark blue text on black

Lol. You didnt quote or direct your post at anyone. I just assumed the "what was that video suppose to prove" kinda thing was for me. All I did was post a video.

 

[Wenbobular]

My post came up literally one minute after yours did, if you think I had time to think of my post, type it up and post it in the span of 1 minute ... ~_~

@Shutyoassup
Well known by who exactly? Last time I checked, there were like 3 well known Luigi players ...

Still not seeing where this >> "RRApes" Luigi is coming from, but I don't know how badly >> counts on this matchup chart.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

It doesnt seem like you thought too much about your post. So 1 minute was more than enough time.

As far as falcon vs luigi, which top luigi player from the tandem of 3, has beaten any of the top falcon players? Luigi can punish falcon decently, but to be quite honest, who cant? Everyone can tap that *** when he is doing that slow *** ninja roll.

Luigi has a terrible approach in general, but its worse vs falcon. There is no way he can beat the nair. While yes Luigi has effective combos on falcon, he cant win in the air. All of falcons moves put Luigi into the air where he is at a disadvantage. Falcon being heavier tends to fair a bit better from trades,

Falcon only loses this matchup if he gets too greedy and tries to make a combo video. Its not hard to shut Luigi out completely.

Falcon>>Luigi

 

[Winston]

First of all, there's only 1 top luigi player, haha. Nice sample size.

"Luigi has a terrible approach in general, but it's worse vs falcon"... both characters approaches are punished if the other character moves back to avoid the move. It's not so cut and dry. Luigi's moves have more priority/range for the most part (upsmash, bair, sometimes utilt will cut through nair), but falcon is a bit more maneuverable, so the approach game is close.

Honestly if you think Falcon >> Luigi then Fox, Falco, and Sheik are in the >>> category.

 

[Wenbobular]

This argument is silly, I don't even think we're disagreeing on most of these points

I don't think Luigi's crappy approach is that significant, because Falcon too doesn't really want to be approaching all that much either. Nair has the danger of getting wavedash -> UpSmashed, Bair Uair Dair have hitboxes in the wrong place, and Knee, while probably the best approach move, doesn't have the same kind of pressure because it doesn't come out fast enough IMO

I think my main gripe is putting Falcon on the same tier as Fox/Falco in this matchup ... Fox has the shine spikes and vertical killing power + the Nair pressure, Falco has lasers vs a character with terrible aerial mobility + shield pressure + a really fast spike vs one of the most predictable recoveries in the game ... I don't think Falcon compares.

*Edit*
Super ninja'd.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Luigi has a terrible approach in general, but its worse vs falcon.

Sure, he's not Falco, but he has variety and priority, which counts for something. Wavedash utilts/usmashes beat Falcon's aerials at SH height. SH chop can also plow through Falcon's aerials, and while it's not the safest of moves, you can keep hazards to a minimum via wavelanding. Dsmash, jab, and grab are also a great mixup from a wavedash. As long as Luigi varies his wavedash lengths and timings, and knows when to defend rather than approach, he shouldn't have to be timid about approaching Falcon.

There is no way he can beat the nair.

Where do you get this idea? Crouchdashes are immune to nair until extremely high percents. Luigi can CC grab/dsmash with ease. Upsmash/utilt/chop go through Falcon's nair pretty consistently.

 

[Wenbobular]

Wow, College Park combo post.
**** x3, we're like better than Mango + Alex19 + Lucky, they were only **** x2

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Of course having a crappy approach is significant. But I can agree that fox, falco are worse. >> represents a range of what would be decimals, except from what Ive read only theManaLord believe we can accurately produce. I just think that falcon is at the lower end of >> while fox, falco, sheik are at the higher end. Right on the verge of being >>>.

**** x2 tho good, is overrated.

 

[Wenbobular]

Looks like we basically agree then
Happy times
This matchup thing needs like, decimals or a bigger range of numbers

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Looks like we basically agree then
Happy times
This matchup thing needs like, decimals or a bigger range of numbers

It seems like we are in agreement. I think we should use one of these as standard. I personally like KAOSTAR's method better because it accounts for the lack in >>> matchups and leaves more room to define the more common ones.

I personally think that 45-55 is close enough to where it comes down to player style not character selection, assuming equal skill.

I would use the about equal sign for that.
50-50 =
55-45 ≈
60-40 >
65-35 >>
75-25>>>

not saying my way is better, or even good. Thats just kinda how I look at it. and yea the ranges are a little skewed to the right. Its because I dont think there are really any 100-0 90-10 etc.

most the the controversy comes closer to even

Edit: I just saw sveets post

In that gif i started the dtilt and the grapple pull on the same frame.

How i consider matchups:
50-50: =
45-55: >
40-60: >
35-65: >>
30-70: >>
25-75: >>>

 

[ChaosNoobSlayer]

I like Kaostar's better, but It doesn't look like it matters much. They are almost identical lol.

 

[t3h Icy]

KAOSTAR's system would basically be a modified 0-10, only more condensed towards the middle.

Why does everyone hate symbols? =P

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

they're too vague?