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Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

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1048576

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Why was Fox Samus deemed even? Fox gets easy kills off the top because she's so floaty, so her recovery isn't that advantageous. She can also be gimpshined if you connect with it after she brings out her grapple. What can Samus even do? To my knowledge, she can't even combo Fox more than like 30 damage. It's definitely easier for Fox than Falco is.

I've played both sides of the matchup, but not on a high-level, so I'm just theorycrafting here.
 

bladeofapollo

Smash Ace
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I probably already missed this discussion, but I don't believe
Samus = Peach
I'm pretty sure (and VaNz will back me up)
Samus < Peach
 

Merkuri

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Why was Fox Samus deemed even? Fox gets easy kills off the top because she's so floaty, so her recovery isn't that advantageous. She can also be gimpshined if you connect with it after she brings out her grapple. What can Samus even do? To my knowledge, she can't even combo Fox more than like 30 damage. It's definitely easier for Fox than Falco is.

I've played both sides of the matchup, but not on a high-level, so I'm just theorycrafting here.
I think Samus vs Fox is one of those 55 45 match ups(in Fox's favor) Samus can edge guard Fox really well with missiles and charge shot. She can't be laser camped at midge range because of her charge shot and Up b out of shield breaks Fox shield pressure. I think the match up is fine as Fox > Samus or Fox = Samus.

However the chart right now is saying that it is muuuuch easier to play Fox as Samus than it as Falcon at that notion is just silly. Something needs to be done so that the chart isn't misleading and staiing that figting Fox is waaaaay easier as Samus than it is as Falcon, because it's not.
 

Nintendude

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A lot of the top matchups are listed as they are because HugS wrote big essays on why they should be that way. Good luck arguing with the peak metagame Samus player that he's wrong.
 

JPOBS

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Since people are questioning samus = fox, heres what lovage said about fox

i have some more earlier in this thread but i'd like to write a bit more about the samus matchup after playing hugs for like 15 hours this weekend.


general

overall, this is not one of fox's best matchups, i think it's even or very slightly in fox's favor. the advantage you all have is she's one of the least represented characters and there are very few players who really use her at a top level.


shield pressure and her up+b

it's possible to attack samus' shield but you have to be very very precise and clever. if you rush in like a noob you will eat an up+b every single time and possibly a dsmash if they land on a platform with you. your method of shield pressure should consist of hitting her with a well spaced nair or bair that hits LOW on their shield, and shining after. every samus has their comfort zone with up+b, so take note of how proficient they are with it, and shield pressure accordingly

if you did it correctly it's possible to bait out a whiffed up+b which can sometimes lead to a very damaging uair chain (it's commonplace to get 2-3 uairs at low-mid percent on samus.) be very aware though, shield pressure is NOT guaranteed, even if you do it nearly perfect, a good samus will be able to up+b you out of almost any unspaced attack.

baiting out up+b is a very important part of this matchup. you can do this by doing low aerials and shielding after, by nairing their shield and dashing away quickly, and by run-up shields.

edge guarding

edgeguarding IS viable, but i think most foxes don't know exactly what to do, because it's very difficult to pull off. basically, your first objective is to eliminate their grapple. one of the best ways to do this is to non-fastfalled weak bair off the stage and hit them right as they begin their grapple. if you get them, don't be fancy and try to shine after, just recover and get back to the edge ASAP. another way to get rid of their grapple is to refresh your ledge invincibility and attempt to shine them as they pull up to the edge. this is a bit harder and it depends on where they grapple'd the stage, so i prefer bairs.

once their grapple is out, they're forced to up+b. do NOT attempt to dsmash edge guard them. any samus worth their salt will sweetspot it, you will probably get hit by the end of the spin attack and get forced on the ground, or you will get fair'd -> dsmashed during your lag. low angled f-tilt is not a bad idea and is totally safe from punishment, but won't get you a kill.

what you want to do is combine the invincibility you get from grabbing the ledge with the bit of invincibility you get from standing up from the edge, and usmash (you can walk forward and dsmash if they're not at kill percent) them when they touch the ground. i guess it's similar to edgeguarding sheik, but it's very tough and you need a lot of experience with it or else you'll get hit with spin attack and get forced on your back.

lasers

lasers are very good in this matchup, samus is very slow in the air and you can get easy free damage when she's recovering or coming down from an uair. even though samus is tall, i still suggest sticking to single lasers over double lasers. single lasers let you be more mobile and make it harder for her to catch you. i suggest dash dancing and using a single laser to bait out her wavedash ftilt, and fulljumping over her with bair to punish.

grabs

grabs aren't THAT bad. you won't combo from them at all, but they're a good mixup because samus relies on her up+b out of shield so much, it's pretty easy to catch her in shield with grabs and get like 6-14 damage. uthrow is decent because sometimes you can read their double jump and get a back air in, but don't rely on it too hard because it's easy to get nair'd. dthrow is decent, but her tech roll is super long and quick so it's very hard to tech chase usmash. if you can be creative with it and score extra hits be my guest, but it's a risk. fthrow is probably your best bet. it forces samus slightly in the air, so sometimes they come down right after with a nair, which you can grab or usmash oos.

general

your overall strategy consists of reading her WD's back, shielding ftilts, using lasers to manipulate her movement, and not getting *****. also, if you can get samus on a platform, use everything you can to keep her in her shield, she's completely useless on platforms and you can get very easy bairs if you make her make a dumb move up there.

stages

best stage: pokemon stadium
good stages: battlefield, yoshi's story
ok stage: fountain, fd
bad stage: dreamland
and he said its 55:45 foxs favor
 

Merkuri

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A lot of the top matchups are listed as they are because HugS wrote big essays on why they should be that way. Good luck arguing with the peak metagame Samus player that he's wrong.
I'm less interested in the Samus vs Fox match up as I am in the Falcon vs Fox. Fox does not >> Falcon. Did you see the discussion? The pros said that Falco >> Falcon and then a bunch of other people just started saying Fox must >> Falcon as well. It was just sooooooo stupid.
 

Nintendude

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I also believe that Fox > Falcon but didn't say anything cause I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough about the matchup to have a valid opinion.
 

PEEF!

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I also believe that Fox > Falcon but didn't say anything cause I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough about the matchup to have a valid opinion.
Yeah, Fox>>Falcon and Falco>>Falcon is nutty professor. I don't think people realize that on this chart, >> means about 70/30. Neither of those matchups are 70/30 and anyone with a brain knows it. I don't even have to cite all the spacies that the Darkrains and the SSs and the Haxs have pooped. Both of those matchups, while tough, are spacie>Falcon.
 

trahhSTEEZY

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i could see it being falco >> falcon , and fox > falcon

simply because of the falco lasering dominating falcons control, fox lets him move around a bit more, making it loooooooads more easy without a doubt.

this has probably already been said X___X
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I think marth >> samus and fox>samus. But w/e
this.

also, i think its ******** that >> means 70:30. If thats the case 90% of the chart should be > with 5% = and the rest >>>.

>> should be above 60:40 or boarderline. > should be 55:45 - 60:40.
 

Alphicans

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Don't associate the symbols with the numbers? We're not using numbers, so saying that ">> meaning 70:30 is stupid," is pointless, because >> means advantage. If you think advantage is 60:40, then that's fine, but the symbols were supposed to back away from that whole mindset...
 

PEEF!

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Well just in terms of how its set up...this chart is out of 7 possible options. >>>, >>, >, =, <, <<, and <<<

If = means 50/50

and >>> means 85/15 (about 6/7 and 1/7)

then >> means about 70/30

> means about 57/43

Keep that in mind.
 

t3h Icy

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Umm, stop thinking in numbers. >_>

Also when I converted from WorldJem's chart, I did 65:35 for >> / << I believe.

Both Scar and Hax wrote about both spacies against Falcon.
 

PEEF!

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Umm, stop thinking in numbers. >_>

Also when I converted from WorldJem's chart, I did 65:35 for >> / << I believe.

Both Scar and Hax wrote about both spacies against Falcon.
Wuuut. Ima hit them up on the falcon boards.

65/35 is too little of an adv. Remember that = is only 50 50 so thats only 7% difference between each of =, >, and >>. Then somehow you end up at...what...85/15? a single 20 point jump after 2 jumps of 7?

If 85/15 is the worst matchup on the list, evenly spaced MU's would be at 50/50, 62/38, and 73/27 and 85/15. If 80/20 is the worst, the evenly spaced it would be 50/50, 60/40, 70/30 and 80/20.

I think it is important to find what >, >>, and >>> mean because that is confusing ppl.
 

Merkuri

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i could see it being falco >> falcon , and fox > falcon

simply because of the falco lasering dominating falcons control, fox lets him move around a bit more, making it loooooooads more easy without a doubt.

this has probably already been said X___X
Quoted for turth


Umm, stop thinking in numbers. >_>

Also when I converted from WorldJem's chart, I did 65:35 for >> / << I believe.

Both Scar and Hax wrote about both spacies against Falcon.
I'm pretty sure Hax and Scar said Falco >> Falcon and Fox > Falcon. And then some other people started saying Fox >> Falcon.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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So if i say fox vs falcon is >> and someone says "no its not >>, its definitely >" what does that mean? From what i gathered about this chart, the different arrows were made to cover a certain range of difficulties (otherwise represented as 0:100). I just think that > is a slight advantage (which is the exact name). This means SLIGHT. 60:40 is hardly a slight advantage. I know people that won't even play a 60:40 MU because they are nearly impossible at the top level.
 

t3h Icy

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fox is -1.5 i feel like vs the average foxes this matchup is easier than falco but vs the amazing ones (jman, lucky) its -2.5 and harder than falco. so i dunno what you guys are going by but i suppose at current top fox play this becomes falcon's hardest matchup. as mango said whats easier nairing the sh*t out of falcons shield or a grab followed by ridiculous tech reads? this is why i despise people who say falcon is broken and tell me my combos are ****ing auto when im outskilling them. when i'm on fire i feel like i can never lose this matchup (i **** jman when i'm playing my best) but that isnt very often

falco is -2 because he can come in having a bad day and **** u with very little skill required. it is once again a case of automatic + broken combos vs reading + broken combos; the former is the clear winner. the advantage keeping this from being impossible is that falco has no grab; he has lasers which are disgusting but the lack of a grab keeps this winnable
fox/falco - 65/35
spacies **** falcon but due to human limitations the matchup is much more even than it is in theory. fox ***** harder in theory and gets ***** harder practically while falco ***** less both in theory and in practice. therefore the fox matchup depends entirely on what the criteria are. it could go anywhere from 60/40 when considering human limitations to as far as 80/20 if fox plays completely technically with full mu knowledge

for the sake of a match-up chart i would argue that fox/falco both have a 65/35 matchup vs CF due to a reliable approach, hard punishes, little overall vulnerability, but fully capable of being killed from 1 hit consistently
Also I did the 65:35 stuff for the BASE of the chart. You can't numerically define how close match-ups are, so that's why we haven't been using them for over half a year. Consider options, viability and difficulty (in succeeding with an option) to define a match-up. You can also compare many of the Top/High tiers since most of them are done, besides a few blips being worked on. I wouldn't use Low tiers as comparison examples though since there are rarely matches between them, such as Zelda/Mewtwo.

Unless you can show me otherwise (and I'd be excited if you could), numbers won't work with how dynamic the game in all aspects is.

Also that has nothing to do with Samus.
 

PEEF!

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Also I did the 65:35 stuff for the BASE of the chart. You can't numerically define how close match-ups are, so that's why we haven't been using them for over half a year. Consider options, viability and difficulty (in succeeding with an option) to define a match-up. You can also compare many of the Top/High tiers since most of them are done, besides a few blips being worked on. I wouldn't use Low tiers as comparison examples though since there are rarely matches between them, such as Zelda/Mewtwo.

Unless you can show me otherwise (and I'd be excited if you could), numbers won't work with how dynamic the game in all aspects is.

Also that has nothing to do with Samus.
You haven't replaced numbers, I hope you know that.

You have simply replaced the common base-10 with base-7. It just makes the chart more general, but +1 and +2 still represent something, and that something is NUMERICALLY (on your base-7 system) how how difficult the matchup is.
 

NJzFinest

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DK vs Samus is at least =. DK players say >, Samus players say =. We were discussing this earlier in the thread.
let's just say =....because DKs have problems with the way IHSB play xD
I've also played NJzFinest in friendlies.
I don't remember playing you, but I asked the Purdue kids who said they saw us play and apparently I wrecked you lol.


Ok guys, time to let Samus players know it's their character's time. *goes to samus forums*
 

Geist

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Eh...
without any in-depth thought process:

Fox = Samus
Falco < Samus
Sheik >> Samus
Marth > Samus
Jiggs > Samus
Falcon > Samus
Peach = Samus
Ganon >> Samus
ICs < Samus
Doc = Samus

I've never faced a good DK before. So I'm not at the liberty to really say anything lol.
 

TheLifeRuiner

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I'm not experienced.

I will voice my opinion regardless.


It seems to me...

DK +1 over Samus
Zelda +1 over Samus or even, leaning more towards +1
Link +1 over Samus or even
Luigi even with Samus

also
about spacies
i think people stick too much to what's "on paper"
falco is a pain in the *** though
 

giuocob

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I don't remember playing you, but I asked the Purdue kids who said they saw us play and apparently I wrecked you lol.
*
Yep, you did lol...though keep in mind I played Kirby in that match, so that should be expected. Also, I was balls at this game in February.

I gotta play you again next year so I can see for myself if DK is actually that bad.

Regardless, you haven't yet given a solid opinion on the matchup. Keeping in mind that making it >> would make it one of Luigi's worst overall matchups (Fox and Falco are certainly not >> for him, though I'll save that for another time), what do you think the matchup should be?
 

h!tboxexplo!ter

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>> should be rare-ish
it should be reserved for awful matchups like sheik vs cf. i just dont see falco owning cf like sheik, and not even close to it really. The basic idea is sheik grabs falcon hes screwed. if falcon approaches sheik nair and ftilt BEAT EVERYTHING. then you add a projectile advantage, and some very easy gimps and that rounds it all up to 70-30 or so. Falco really only has the projectile advantage hes not even close to tech chase gay (i dont even think good shine combos compare really). falco gimp falcon like everyone else, but not NEARLY as bad as sheik can. nairs, ledged bairs, dsmash spam (sometimes, its hilarious though) needles to mess with low recovering falcons, and well placed fair can end it too.
I just don't see it

I second sheik >> samus. sheik can deter projectile spam incredibly well (lol 1 needle vs full charged shot). there seems to only really be two ways samus can kill sheik as well. the first is edgeguarding, which most characters can do to each other anyways. the second is a fsmash, which sort of lacks diversity. AND sheik can pop samus' bombs if she can connect her needles with a recovering samus, which seriously impairs one of samus' greatest strengths.
 

JPOBS

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lol, fox and falco are def >> DK on non FD stages. fd makes the match > but thats only one stage and it can be banned

falco is the worst, his lasers take away the best thing dk has (bair).
 

Divinokage

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I think it's probably Ganon > Samus.. I've played Hugs/IHSB a bunch. I don't really know why, but it just feels that way against good samus players.
 

unknown522

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kirbykaze:

@hitboxexploiter - idk hax and scar claim you can dodge tech chase with c-stick roll + non-tech

maybe sheik is winnable now

i don't think that would matter too, too much because you can still just tilt him off the ground and combo, or duck and then react to his non-tech stuff if you're below 100%, and if you do land a jab reset below 32 you can combo both hits of u-smash and do like 28% and monster **** combo him from it but w/e. if he dis anywhere but completely away from sheik you can also just combo tilts on him out of the throw, it's pretty easy to get d-throw u-tilts if he doesn't di the throw and then regrab or dash attack, uairs, etc.

i think that if falcon is doing better it's probably got more to do with falcon's punishment getting gayer on sheik and them getting better at punishing baited tilts and stuff opposed to falcons avoiding sheik punishment gayness but i never play vs falcons nor do i have good vs falcon experience.
 

TheLake

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Zelda snogs samus :D

Zelda > Samus plz

**Not sure what snogs means but im making it a word now just for samus matchups*
 

ChivalRuse

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I'm with Kage on this one. Samus isn't gonna be running into kicks. She's going to force Zelda to her with missiles, and with Samus's defensive options, it should be over once Zelda approaches.
 

TheLifeRuiner

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You're kidding, right?
No.

I don't see why what I'm saying is ridiculous, given the context.

I have seen DK beat on Samus mostly. MEXICAN told me it's not that hard of a matchup though.
I have heard Zelda is good vs Samus but I've never seen a good Zelda vs Samus in tournament. I would agree that it's kinda a stretch to say what I did. *shrug*
I have seen Germ say Link has the advantage, and that makes sense, but just as well, I think it could be even.
I haven't really seen many high level Luigis v Samus except for Ka-Master v HugS, and that was a close one.
 

Geist

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**Not sure what snogs means but im making it a word now just for samus matchups*
Im now picturing Samus making out with Zelda.

I think Zelda = Samus
Its a stupid floaty matchup generally degraded into mostly single hits and careful spacing.
Nayrus love can help against missiles and charge beam, and even though kicks are mad obvious, they still out-range and out-prioritize samus.

I have seen Germ say Link has the advantage, and that makes sense, but just as well, I think it could be even.
I haven't really seen many high level Luigis v Samus except for Ka-Master v HugS, and that was a close one.
I think Link is straight even with Samus. Luigi is at the disadvantage though.
 
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