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Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

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Merkuri

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Does no one else find it weird that the chart says Samus AND Roy are both << Jiggs? That's like saying Lisa Leslie and my mom could both successfully guard Kobe.
Well following that lgoic isn't Fox = Falco and Samus = Falco just as bad? Are you saying Hugs is wrong about the match up?

And just because character is worse than another doesn't mean that these two characters can't be equal in another match up.


As best I can tell, Mango doesn't play Jiggs vs HugS in tournament because he and Hugo are friends, and friends don't do that kinda **** to each other. And also because he likes a challenge.
Well I'm pretty sure the last time Mango played Jigs against Hugs in tournament was at Evo 2007 where Hugs beat him. Just before(some tournament in Florida, forgOt the name) and after(Super Champ Combo) EVO 2007 Mango played Falco against Hugs in tournament and beat him.
 

NJzFinest

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I rememeber IHSB did a good "write up" about Falco vs Samus. Saying something like, if the Falco players smart/gay enough, it's a solid advantage for Falco.
 

MEXICAN

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Ok, as far as the samus/dk matchup goes, the game has changed a lot since i said that dk had a big advantage over samus. Back then i would've said dk>>samus, now i'd say dk>samus or dk=samus....leaning towards dk>samus. I've played IHSB at Genesis and we went 1/1 and i play darkmike a lot and the matches usually come out at about 50/50, granted that darkmike is probably a little better than me. lol.

As for the luigi matchup, saying that you played njzfinest, and didn't even use luigi against him kinda defeats the purpose of even talking about that match, don't you think? I don't think i've ever lost to a luigi besides my brothers when he used to main luigi back in the day, and I'll bet you that pkmvodka and Bum never lost to/lose to them either. The only luigi player that i've beaten who's name i can remember is rofl and one of the other ones that i beat i heard (if its not true, its just what i heard *shrugs*) beat scar, so he has to be at least decent, but i don't remember his name. lol. And one thing that always works against luigi and even ic's is after i giant punch, and assuming my opponent shields, i down b right after and my opponent ALWAYS wd's in trying to punish the lag from giant punch which is much less than you'd expect. That has nothing to do with my argument that it should be >>, its just my point about the fact that i can easily use the down b effectively against luigi. Whoever thought that luigi was > over dk must really not know the matchup. I don't think its impossible for luigi to win, i just think that the b air COMPLETELY ***** his approach. Best thing luigi can do is wd in with an f tilt or some luigi players have even wd'd in with an u smash. Nothing else will work, f air included


*edit*--I will give you that on smaller stages like fod and yoshi's that the matchup is dk>luigi, but on bigger stages dk>>luigi.
 

giuocob

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So why does Bair **** Luigi so hard only? For example, you've got Doc = DK and Mario < DK, why is it astronomically worse for Luigi?
 

MEXICAN

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So why does Bair **** Luigi so hard only? For example, you've got Doc = DK and Mario < DK, why is it astronomically worse for Luigi?
Because doc and mario aren't limited in their approach. Luigi pretty much HAS to approach through a wd. Mario and doc don't have such bad horizontal coverage in their jumps like luigi does and luigi can't do much to stop himself once he wd's in in time to avoid taking a b air. Also, mario and doc can juggle dk better than luigi can. Also, luigi is just too predictable for the most part. He's fast when he wavedashes but is slow otherwise
 

giuocob

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Also, mario and doc can juggle dk better than luigi can. otherwise
Alright, THIS I can't believe. What could Mario or Doc possibly have that could outdo Luigi in the vertical juggling department?

As far as approach, don't forget that Luigi tornado is making a good resurgence, and DK's a prime target since he's so ****ing big.
 

FoxLisk

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ive never played a very good samus, but my feeling from what i've played is that falco > samus. her punishment isn't good enough to make up for the lasers. it's pretty hard to combo her, but it's so hard for her to get in against a falco who's lasering well. in my experience, if i try to attack i lose, but if it's a serious match i can just camp lasers and jump around and win a long war of attrition. especially since her grab is really bad, so you can shield when she tries to attack a lot of the time. i just don't see any way that it's falco = samus, because she just can't get damage in. it's probably falco = samus on YS and FoD because he can't camp lasers as well, but even then it's hard as hell for the samus.
 

AIDS

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Speaking up for the Samus portion, I would say Marth is a huge dis advantage and Sheik should be a (-1)
Watch M2K vs Hugs for a reference.

Marth's range and priority just put's Samus to shame. It is an extremely hard match on Samus's side.
 

Pi

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Speaking up for the Samus portion, I would say Marth is a huge dis advantage and Sheik should be a (-1)
Watch M2K vs Hugs for a reference.

Marth's range and priority just put's Samus to shame. It is an extremely hard match on Samus's side.
I would like to hear HugS thoughts on the matchup after having experienced M2K.

I still maintain my marth > samus mindset
Although it is on the lower end.
I'm hoping M2K makes it to CEO2010 and I'll challenge his marth
 

Kira-

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Mexican (used to?) play with a really good Luigi back in the day, and since he's a pretty good DK himself I would take his word for it.
 

giuocob

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I'm not taking his word just point-blank. Imma go to the Luigi boards and ask some of the bigwigs what they think of the matchup.

EDIT: Here's Mogwai:

I think Luigi ***** the matchup. granted, I might not be the best source on this, but I do remember everyone, including DK, looking completely helpless vs. Luigi in Low Tier tournies back in the day. Like, it doesn't seem that DK can shield in the match without getting shield stabbed by dair, and any time we say ______ spam is unbeatable in this day and age, it's completely ridiculous.
 

NJzFinest

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^^ Back when DK was a low tier character... lol... back before Bum was good and Mexican existed in the scene.

Remember when YLink countered Peach back in the day (Caveman vs KrazyJones)? And Link was even with Marth... And everyone beat Puff... lol even some people taught Kirby > Sheik.

1. who cares about back in the day
2. Mogwai uses Falco
3. Doc and Mario can actually follow DI in their juggles, since they're not limited horizontally in the air (ex. repeative uairs across the stage into a Doc Fair). Luigi's vertical movement only helps him with people who DI like ****.
 

giuocob

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1. who cares about back in the day
2. Mogwai uses Falco
3. Doc and Mario can actually follow DI in their juggles, since they're not limited horizontally in the air (ex. repeative uairs across the stage into a Doc Fair). Luigi's vertical movement only helps him with people who DI like ****.
1. Mogwai apparently lol
2. He uses Luigi too, surely you've seen some of his stuff
3. That's not how Weegee juggles, he launches you up with Dsmash or Nair then follows your DI ON THE GROUND, and hits you back up with Dsmash Nair or Uair. DK's Dair is slow and telegraphed, it doesn't help him much here. Basically as long as the Luigi can follow DI correctly, or DK goes for fancy platform **** (which Luigi is quite adept at dealing with except maybe on Stadium), DK's not comin' down.

And no, I have not tried this specifically on DK, but it works very well on all sorts of non-fastfalling characters, and should work on DK better than most.
 

TheLifeRuiner

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So what I'm seeing is, DK mains think DK>Luigi, and Luigi mains think Luigi>DK.

I think it's hard to theorize about a matchup that takes place once every blue moon, and where the only "hard" matchup knowledge exists in the somewhat(?) distant past.

I don't know the matchup at all. All I can do is point this out. I don't know if this helps or not. :\

I'm saying you can't set this matchup in stone. I would do DK=Luigi* where the asterisk shows the matchup can't be decided, and the "=" is just to balance out the opinions of both sides (>> vs < would be > for example)

*shrug*
 

Winston

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Alright, THIS I can't believe. What could Mario or Doc possibly have that could outdo Luigi in the vertical juggling department?

As far as approach, don't forget that Luigi tornado is making a good resurgence, and DK's a prime target since he's so ****ing big.
... have you seen mario on big characters before?

utilt-> uair X amount of times to fsmash/dsmash/nair/fair?

the chain also gets started by grab at some percents and fair, and sometimes dair.

I mean not all of the combo is guaranteed but enough of it works that with some techchasing/a missed DI from your opponent Mario can combo DK quite well. definitely better than Luigi can.

Also I have no idea what you're talking about as far as Luigi tornado goes. It's a decent surprise move, but it barely leads into anything against non fastfallers. DK being big does not make him a "prime target"... he can still shield/jump/crouch cancel to avoid it and punish.
 

giuocob

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Not many people think Luigi > DK; as NJz said, Mogwai based that off of rather old knowledge, and it's true that DK's have gotten better since then.

One thing we can learn from that post though is that saying spam ruins a character is stupid.

Also I have no idea what you're talking about as far as Luigi tornado goes. It's a decent surprise move, but it barely leads into anything against non fastfallers. DK being big does not make him a "prime target"... he can still shield/jump/crouch cancel to avoid it and punish.
Watch some recent Luigi videos. Pakman in particular makes enormous use of tornado. It's turned into more than a decent surprise move; in the right hands it's one of Luigi's staple approaches, and the last hit sends the opponent pretty high in the air, definitely not a good place for DK to be.
 

Winston

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Watch some recent Luigi videos. Pakman in particular makes enormous use of tornado. It's turned into more than a decent surprise move; in the right hands it's one of Luigi's staple approaches, and the last hit sends the opponent pretty high in the air, definitely not a good place for DK to be.
Luigi's tornado is pretty similar to falcon's side b. It's a "hope for the best".

It's completely telegraphed, it's not safe on block, doesn't give you options/mixups, it can be crouch cancelled easily at low percents, and many characters can beat it easily with an aerial. Some characters can beat it by jabbing. How can it be one of his "staple approaches"?

It can definitely be very effective vs people who aren't used to playing vs Luigi. For example, I use it vs Marths who like to try to beat my approaches with fsmash/ftilt, because it clanks then and I get to do a move first. It also works as a surprise because people don't have perfect reaction time to things they don't expect. Calling it a "staple approach" is a huge stretch though.

You can also only combo the regular hit into the strong hit (that's good for comboing) at certain percents, making it even more situational.
 

giuocob

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It definitely has flaws. But I think it's fair to call it a staple approach, simply because it's Luigi we're talking about here, who would otherwise have exactly one solid approach (WD Dsmash). We've gotta take what we can get.
 

NJzFinest

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Once Luigi hit's DK after launching him is what I meant. He's gonna still be in the air and DK will DI away. Luigi has to wait for his slow self to get back down to the ground.
Doc/Mario actually land more then 2 hits.
 

Nintendude

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It definitely has flaws. But I think it's fair to call it a staple approach, simply because it's Luigi we're talking about here, who would otherwise have exactly one solid approach (WD Dsmash). We've gotta take what we can get.
WD f-tilt is Luigi's best approach imo.
 

VGmasta

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I'm one of the best Doc's in the US atm and I'm the only one who has contributed/defended any of his matchups.
What?!?!?!?! What about VGmasta?!

Wow I suck....

I'll agree with:
Doc = Samus
Ganon > Samus
Although I'm curious as to why some people say Ganon >> Samus
Is Ganon that bad for Samus?! I'm not that experienced as Ganon vs Samus yet.
 

Pakman

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Tornado is rarely good. I do it out of stupidity most of the time. It can be used decently to cancel missiles and pills, but other than that it isn't very good to use outside of recovery.

It is pretty sweet when it works though.
 

Geist

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Although I'm curious as to why some people say Ganon >> Samus
Is Ganon that bad for Samus?! I'm not that experienced as Ganon vs Samus yet.
Personally it's my worst matchup. Ganon can effectively shut out 3 of samus's best attributes in one move. With Fair he can completely shut down missiles no problem and can pretty much out range and out prioritize all her moves.
He can render her recovery obsolete on small /medium stages. One of Samus's stronger qualities is the ability to survive to higher percents, and that doesn't say much when he can kill you off the sides at like 70%, which is about 3-4 moves for him.
CCing also doesn't work except at very low percents, and if he spaces properly, you still can't do anything.
Everything becomes high risk/low reward, because with one small mistake he can kill you, or leave you at a very high %.
If it isn't Ganon >> Samus, it's very close.
 

SleepyK

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I'm one of the best Doc's in the US atm and I'm the only one who has contributed/defended any of his matchups.
yo otg i haven't seen too many tournament placings from you...
 

VGmasta

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Personally it's my worst matchup. Ganon can effectively shut out 3 of samus's best attributes in one move. With Fair he can completely shut down missiles no problem and can pretty much out range and out prioritize all her moves.
He can render her recovery obsolete on small /medium stages. One of Samus's stronger qualities is the ability to survive to higher percents, and that doesn't say much when he can kill you off the sides at like 70%, which is about 3-4 moves for him.
CCing also doesn't work except at very low percents, and if he spaces properly, you still can't do anything.
Everything becomes high risk/low reward, because with one small mistake he can kill you, or leave you at a very high %.
If it isn't Ganon >> Samus, it's very close.
That sounds legit Blowtoe. I'm now convinced Ganon >> Samus.
 

Zephynazo

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It's the first time i ever hear ur name otg O_o Since when did u become one of the best doc's?

No offence intended here at all.
 

NJzFinest

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Well, who are the other Doc players out there?

Boss, M2K, Shroom, and BobMoney are all I can think of.

Sometimes I say like I'm one of the best DKs haha, but only to my non-competitive friends.
 

PEEF!

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Well, who are the other Doc players out there?

Boss, M2K, Shroom, and BobMoney are all I can think of.

Sometimes I say like I'm one of the best DKs haha, but only to my non-competitive friends.
You forgot HMW who might be the best.

18spikes is in there.

And Dogysam
 
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