Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[giuocob]

Tornado is rarely good. I do it out of stupidity most of the time. It can be used decently to cancel missiles and pills, but other than that it isn't very good to use outside of recovery.

It is pretty sweet when it works though.

Pakman, you've led me astray ;_; Guess I gotta stop using tornado now.

 

[otg]

yo otg i haven't seen too many tournament placings from you...

I don't really go out to tourney often, but that is changing soon. I do however, play with **** people on the regular. I'm 10 minutes from PC Chris, Jman, vanz, alu, etc etc etc the list goes on, and I play with them all on a weekly basis. It's pretty much established within tristate that I"m the best doc there atm.... which doesn't mean **** but still lol. Breaking top 5 in this region is ****ing hard

 

[BunBun]

Less hate, more discussion!

I find it hard to buy Samus = Pikachu. Can't Samus just CC **** anything Pikachu does?

Inb4 chadvsIHSB post from one of them

 

[N64]

Less hate, more discussion!

I find it hard to buy Samus = Pikachu. Can't Samus just CC **** anything Pikachu does?

I think it's samus>pika, but ihsb and chad (among others) say it's pretty even. since they have more exp in the matchup, i tend to trust them.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It just seems hard to pressure Samus because of her CC and up-b out of shield. Samus also has the range advantage, meaning she can poke Pikachu's awful shield to her heart's content with ftilts and jab cancels. Running away from her does no good, as Samus has the superior projectiles and is under no obligation to approach. As far as survivability, it seems it would be difficult to tailspike Samus. Pikachu is on the light side, so Samus shouldn't have too much trouble KOing him. Pikachu's only boon in that match-up seems to be his upsmash - but he gets early upsmash KOs on every character, thus, given the advantages I just listed, I feel like Samus could reasonably be said to have the upper hand.

 

[Megachuk]

i'd say its even. pika's wont just jump in willy nilly against a crouching samus. And pika's size makes the matchup awkward for the samus player. It's a matchup where neither player has any type of upper hand, or super gimp on the other.

 

[t3h Icy]

Sorry for neglecting the thread for a bit. I was hoping HugS would be able to help out again, but I guess he's busy.

Anyway:

Samus = Zelda
Jigglypuff > Samus
DK = Samus

Peach > Samus?
Fox > Falcon?
DK > Luigi?
Samus = ICs?
Samus >> Yoshi?

For those asking about Samus vs Falco/Fox, here's what HugS said about them before.

I feel that a Fox who tries to outcamp Samus is a Fox who does not know the matchup.

Going by experience alone, the only foxes to ever beat me post 2006 have been aggressive foxes, always. It's like there are phases in every great fox on how to approach the matchup.

They start aggressive and get destroyed. Then they try camping and while they do get closer, they can't seem to ever win this way. Then they evolve to the way that Mango plays the matchup, they learn to overwhelm the Samus.

See, fox aggression is easy to deal with. You CC dsmash the Bairs, you up B the nair shines, you ftilt/utilt nearly everything else. The point is, pure aggression does nothing to overwhelm a good Samus.

Likewise, a defensive approach doesn't work too great either IMO. It's easy to get in because of the lack of laser stun. And once you do, it's a matter of analyzing the pattern. Everyone will have a pattern they use to evade Samus. Does he shield? Does he roll? Does he jump/double jump? Does he go aggro when you get in close? When you figure out the pattern and know the tool to deal with it, it's pretty common to trade damage evenly until the two characters are both at KO percentage. And who's got an easier time catching that KO hit? The campy fox? Or the Samus who's been spending the whole match catching patterns.

Not to mention, an approach can sometimes lead to an edgeguard opportunity, and this is what would break the cycle of keeping the % even and landing the KO move. A good edgeguard for the lead causes the fox to change into aggro mode.

The correct way to play fox vs Samus is to overwhelm Samus. That is, be aggressive but know her options. Have a purpose with your aggression. A lot of Foxes mistake their lack of ability with the idea that fox can't do the matchup aggressively. He certainly can, and it's his best choice.

Learn to light shield upB's, learn her wavedash timing to start baiting Wavedashes (people rarely do this), ride the platforms. It's way harder to deal with this style of Fox because their patterns involve opportunities they create for themselves to deal me serious damage. A mis-step in catching these patterns leads to a lost stock in many cases, where as a mistake in catching a campy fox's pattern leads to a few lasers.

An overwhelming Fox becomes so adept at punishing a Samus, that it calls for so much pensiveness when Samus makes a decision that...well...it overwhelms the Samus. It is only in this situation that I consider the matchup to be 55-45 Fox, but this style of play has only come from Mango/Lucky/maaaaybe M2k , where Lucky is the only player who may be better than me, while the other two definitely are. So I ignore these instances, and instead focus on players who are on or below my level, who employ a defensive strategy (Sometimes even, though usually in Samus's favor) or a muddled aggro strategy (always in samus's favor).

So in my eyes, I see a style that goes slightly uneven for Fox (Defensive), a style that gets ***** by Samus (aggro), and a style that beats Samus 55% of the time, but only 3 players employ it (Overwhelming Samus).

That's why I consider the matchup to be even.

I'll simply go by my experience on a few match ups before I have to head out again. People usually just chime in with "well it's HugS, not Samus, otherwise Samus gets *****" which is why I refrain from posting any kind of opinions I have on match ups.

Anyways.

I believe Samus has a slight advantage on Falco. It's so hard to describe why some matches are advantageous since there is so much that goes into a match. So in the interest of communication, I'll break the matchup down into 3 crucial categories:

1. Defense
2. Offense
3. Edge game

Samus effectively shuts down Falco's offensive game with her defensive game. I'll assume that the prevention of your opponent's offense is the main purpose of a good defense. Simply put, Samus's upB out of shield stops most any effective approach Falco has in any other match up. The Falco can only hope to be able to trick the samus into mis-timing or mis-using her upB. These are artificial ways of dealing with the situation IMO, as tricks run thin. You can play rock paper scissors with a good samus and hope she can't figure out when you're grabbing/attacking. Any attack will be beaten.

If you do manage to get that first hit in, Samus has her passive defense, which involves her inability to be combo'd very well. Not that it's flawless, but it helps make this portion of the match up go into her favor.

Defense Adavntage - Samus

Offense - Clearly, falco has a better offense. He can overwhelm most any character. Samus's offense isn't the greatest, but it's better than Falco's defense. And if Falco's Defense has 1 purpose, it's to stop Samus's offense, and it won't be able to do that. Missiles aid in the approach, and once Samus is in there, it becomes a matter of outranging Falco and being able to quickly switch to defensive mode if needed. The main factor that puts this slightly in Samus's favor (IMO) is falco's ability to be combo'd. Which means that Samus need break through falco's defense only once to possibly end his stock. And if the falco is camping, Samus can close in with missiles, break through lasers with a wavedash - tilt and catch falco only once to tie up the damage, or take the stock. This is all hard, mind you, which is why most people don't even consider this an advantage for Samus. Either way, it's only a slight advantage to either no matter how you look at it.

Offense - Slight Advantage for either Falco/Samus,

3. Edge Game - It's no surprise that falco has a shoddy recovery. It's also no surprise that Samus has one of the best. So this part of the Edgegame clearly goes to Samus.

As far as edgeguarding goes, that requires some analysis. I'd have to give Samus the advantage on this one. Samus has an amazing edgeguard coupled with the fact that Falco has a terrible recovery. Limiting his options is cake. If he side-B's, ftilt. If he up B's from below, utilt. If you don't know where he's going, shoot a missile/shot to make him go where you want, then commence with the process. Falco on the other hand, must keep track of all her options. First he must get rid of the grapple, then he must stop a sweet spot, which ain't gonna happen if the Samus sweetspots perfectly. And if the falco grabs the ledge, you should still have your jump to get in anyways. This on top of the fact that's there's no distance samus can't come back from means that Samus doesn't die from falco edgeguards.

3. Advantage - Samus

So I hope that helps explain why I feel Samus has the slight advantage over falco. I don't have more time to write about other characters atm. And I could probably delve into Samus vs Falco even more, but I think this is enough.

And FYI Fletch, your sig is dumb. You can employ patient thinking/predicting in checkers or chess, the main difference between the two games is the amount of options, and chess, like Melee, most definitely delivers more options.

Anyway, I can help with Jigglypuff/Samus.

Jigglypuff vs Samus is a floaty fest and a lot of it is exchanging hits, which is fairly even on both sides. Samus's Missiles and Charged Shot aren't super helpful in this match except for forcing movement or attacks out of Jigglypuff, because Jigglypuff can cancel them with aerials (Bair for Charged Shot and anything for Missiles). Ideally, Jigglypuff's Tilts and throws don't help much against Samus (except for BThrow), so Jigglypuff would want to be in the air using Fair, Nair or Bair. Samus can still use FSmash and Ftilt and hit Jigglypuff at the height where she can hit Samus though, so a lot of it is spacing.

The thing is though, Samus has a nice recovery, but Jigglypuff is able to go way off the stage to interrupt it, which helps a lot. Samus can't guard Jigglypuff well because when Samus hits her with one of the killing moves, Jigglypuff goes up and she can fall safely down. When Jigglypuff hits Samus into the air, Samus's only real moves when falling with Jigglypuff below are Nair or Dair. Maybe Down B for a mixup. Jigglypuff can use Uair or simply pressure Samus with her superior air control.

Rests aren't very common in the match because Uair and Utilt only combo into Rest at low percents, and Samus is quick on the ground and in the air. Unless Jigglypuff reads well, or Samus hits her shield, Jigglypuff won't be hitting Rest.

I think it's fairly even, but Jigglypuff has a boost when it comes to edgeguarding and pressure when following up with attacks. Both characters end up in the air when either gets hit, and Jigglypuff above Samus is much safer than Samus above Jigglypuff. That with the edgeguarding, leaves me to think it's Jigglypuff > Samus.

Also, just to let you guys know, I'm going to be gone until Monday, but by all means keep discussion going and I'll check everything once I get back. =)

 

[SleepyK]

I don't really go out to tourney often, but that is changing soon. I do however, play with **** people on the regular. I'm 10 minutes from PC Chris, Jman, vanz, alu, etc etc etc the list goes on, and I play with them all on a weekly basis. It's pretty much established within tristate that I"m the best doc there atm.... which doesn't mean **** but still lol. Breaking top 5 in this region is ****ing hard

yeah i know, and i wasn't trying to bash you, but honestly unless you get some real tournament results you really can't say that you're one of the best docs in the nation. you know i <3 ya, but try to harbor some humility baby gurl

 

[ChivalRuse]

Have you SEEN this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nCX-PhAYXM

HMW, Shroomed, Boss, and Dogy don't got nothing on this.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

**** sleepyk what a jerk

 

[Geist]

Pikachu Samus matchup is pretty good, but I think Samus has a slight advantage. Its probably >, but it wouldn't bother me if it was =.

ChivalRuse got it with range. Samus's tilts eat Pikachu to pieces.
Easy to KO, no real pressure, gets CC dtilt/dsmash, etc.

One thing Pika has going is his ability to destroy bombs and gimp Samus's recovery. It's not too hard to hit her with a well placed tail spike, Pika really only has to watch for surprize Nairs. Thundershock aimed well is good for samus gimps.

Samus = ICs?
Samus >> Yoshi?

I think ICs are too easy to split apart for it to be =, but that's just me.
I agree with yoshi though.

 

[P. O. F.]

I agree with everything for the most part that I'm seeing in this chart with all the characters but I still think Jigs Vs Marth is AT BEST = for Jigs.

 

[otg]

yeah i know, and i wasn't trying to bash you, but honestly unless you get some real tournament results you really can't say that you're one of the best docs in the nation. you know i <3 ya, but try to harbor some humility baby gurl

No I totally respect your post, I def need more humility in general (even outside of smash)... I think a lot of it has to due with my personality. But yeah, I'm making an active effort to go out to every tournament I can, so just you wait... I'll earn that title soon enough.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I think ICs are too easy to split apart for it to be =, but that's just me.

We already agreed that Samus > ICs.

Didn't we just discuss ICs' matchups for like a week straight? Lol.

 

[Heart Break Kid]

OTG has the best Doc in the world

 

[otg]

OTG has the best Doc in the world

I love you, especially since you don't mean that statement at all. But you're my favorite troll ever so it's cool.

 

[SleepyK]

**** sleepyk what a jerk

ilu baby

I agree with everything for the most part that I'm seeing in this chart with all the characters but I still think Jigs Vs Marth is AT BEST = for Jigs.

i dunno, in theory, it's very hard for jiggs to get in on marth if he just safely fairs the entire time.
i've tried. it's worked.

No I totally respect your post, I def need more humility in general (even outside of smash)... I think a lot of it has to due with my personality. But yeah, I'm making an active effort to go out to every tournament I can, so just you wait... I'll earn that title soon enough.

<3

 

[PEEF!]

OTG 4 the bipolarz

 

[Geist]

We already agreed that Samus > ICs.

Didn't we just discuss ICs' matchups for like a week straight? Lol.

I'm just complaining. Most of the characters above samus are pretty much set in stone already anyways.

Has anyone said anything more in depth about DK vs Samus yet? I heard Mexican say DK>=Samus but he didn't actually touch on the matchup itself.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah ... I want to hear more about that match-up. It just seems like at close range, DK loses, and at long range, DK loses. I want to hear how Mexican justifies DK > Samus (or whatever his assessment was).

 

[SleepyK]

from what limited information i got from maus - who plays samus, who played njzfinest, dk's spaced bair really beats out all of samus' everything. it goes through missiles, it outranges and out prioritizes her aerials and tilts, and she can't CC it if it's spaced correctly.

plus, uair is a somewhat reliable kill move.

 

[Pi]

samus fair is 2good

 

[ChivalRuse]

from what limited information i got from maus - who plays samus, who played njzfinest, dk's spaced bair really beats out all of samus' everything. it goes through missiles, it outranges and out prioritizes her aerials and tilts, and she can't CC it if it's spaced correctly.

plus, uair is a somewhat reliable kill move.

Doesn't up-b beat DK's bair?

 

[SleepyK]

not if it's spaced correctly.

 

[ChivalRuse]

No, like, I'm pretty sure Samus can catch DK's foot with it. Her up-b tends to outprioritize moves that aren't thoroughly disjointed ...

 

[SleepyK]

but dk has such a big foot

 

[ChivalRuse]

But Samus has invincibility on her up-b for frames 1-5.

http://www.angelfire.com/games5/sdmcoolvid/Samus_frames_10.29.04.txt

 

[SleepyK]

invincibility to foot smell imo
suit filter imba

but i think that if you tap with the tip of the foot and retreat with the bair you should be safe. i'm not sure, though.

 

[ChivalRuse]

At that range Samus just wavedashes back. DK can't approach with bair very well. With any character, bair is fairly situational, which makes using it as a bread and butter move difficult, since getting hit turns you around (and in DK's case, due to his bulk, he'll be getting hit a lot).

 

[SleepyK]

and thus concludes my knowledge of this matchup.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

At that range Samus just wavedashes back. DK can't approach with bair very well. With any character, bair is fairly situational, which makes using it as a bread and butter move difficult, since getting hit turns you around (and in DK's case, due to his bulk, he'll be getting hit a lot).

cept it only takes one frame to turn back around again

 

[SleepyK]

you can also neutral b charge turnaround.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Edit: 1 Frame to turnaround but then how do you bair Samus if she's out of range?

@ Sleepyk: You can't SH reverse punch charge cancel -> bair. You have to full jump, and that leaves you mad vulnerable.

Anyway, I think we can agree that bair isn't this gdlk move that wins DK the match-up. There must be more to it. I really want to get Mexican's input, since he was here vehemently defending some of DK's match-ups and then sort of disappeared.

 

[NJzFinest]

(and in DK's case, due to his bulk, he'll be getting hit a lot).

Samus isn't Falco dude.

DK>Samus or =, most likely > but DK players are fine with =.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10141363#post10141363

The DK vs Samus discussion starts there. Mexican actually posted some about it in his recent visits to this thread.

 

[Kyu Puff]

@ Sleepyk: You can't SH reverse punch charge cancel -> bair. You have to full jump, and that leaves you mad vulnerable.

You can actually, it's just sort of hard to do.

 

[SleepyK]

technical feet

dk uh-roo

i'll give it a few shots and see i can do it, since njz just got off of smashboards. it's still fairly telegraphed, though. pivot bair would be a better option.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Samus isn't Falco dude.

I'm not talking about at long range on the ground. I mean in the air, when trades/combo breakers happen. For example, DK full jumps in with his back to Samus, intending to bair. He gets faired, and it turns him around. Thus, even though he's out of stun before he hits the ground, he can't simply bair her back as he lands because the fair forces him to face her. So instead of him getting out of her combo with bair, he gets naired or faired again.

DK>Samus or =, most likely > but DK players are fine with =.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10141363#post10141363

The DK vs Samus discussion starts there. Mexican actually posted some about it in his recent visits to this thread.

Well, I'm not surprised if DKs are beating Samuses who can't wavedash oos.

On a more serious note, I can understand =, but I wouldn't give a solid > advantage to DK ...

 

[SleepyK]

i find it hard to believe that hugs didn't know how to wavedash oos at scc.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I was referring to this post.

 

[SleepyK]

i dunno, from what we've heard from the actual DK mains who play samus on a somewhat regular basis, the matchup is most likely dk > samus. iirc chivalruse you don't play either character.

i'm not knocking your opinion, but you did ask for opinions of good dk mains and we kind of have them now. yet you still disagree. are you waiting for a comprehensive post from mexican himself?