Marth's Match-Up Chart thread

[OverLord]

Actually I already said that I agree with you on your point about community being afraid, lazy whateva..


The fact is just that Mario is not a better character beacause Mango plays him.
Pikachu is not 55:45 against Marth (like someone said) because of Axe, and Puff is not even with Fox.
And Mewtwo STILL sucks, even if there is Taj that is REALLY good. But it's Taj that IS good, not Mew2. Mango is GOOD not Mario. (Mario is not that bad anyway)

You can OBVIOUSLY learn more on the MU watching Mango playing Mario against Marth. And that's great.
But, for example, Falcon-Sheik is very BAD for Falcon, and after Mango vs M2K sets in this MU, everyone can see how that MU is kinda 70-30.

If there is some Falcon somewhere ****** Sheiks, and he is too good, fine, he's just good against Sheik. This doesn't change the MU. More credit to him I guess. If this random Falcon plays M2K, I guess he will get whooped.

And no, not because M2K is an unbeateble robot, but 'cause M2K's Sheik is the best in this MU at the moment, and he ***** the best Falcons in the world. Confirming theories about this MU.

Same for Mario vs Marth.
Mario must trick and bait in order to get into Marth's zone and combo the **** out of him. But there are kinda safe ways Marth can play that make feel Mario a sad panda. Just like Fox against every low tier (against everyone actually). Fox can just spam and grab and win. No matter what. No matter who.

DK sucks, even if BUM! beats lots of Foxes.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

in case anybody cares, i stopped reading this thread because the posts had too much content. There really isnt anything to debate here. post your opinions on the matchups and move on. Fight each other in PMs or something....

 

[A2ZOMG]

Perhaps but Doc has better follow ups from grabs than Mario does vs Marth and also it's harder for Mario to simply kill Marth than Doc. A Mario has limited options to get in which is really **** hard to get in, in the first place I find. Marth has the luxury to spam more moves than Mario does.. the Mario player is going to have to be much smarter than Marth if he wants to punish very hard. I think it's probably worse than 6/4. I wonder how easy it is to shield poke Mario with Marth, it's probably easy with good accuracy. I think even if Marth plays aggressively, I just can't see how Mario is going to retaliate efficienly if the Marth has even good spacing.

It is somewhat easy to shield poke Mario, but only if he doesn't know how to angle shield.

IMO the most "aggressive" Marth should be against Mario is with careful D-tilt pokes on the ground and well-timed tilts to anti-air. Actually jumping against Mario is fairly unsafe.

Doc does have D-throw F-air for kills, but Mario's juggle combos on Marth are better. They work more consistently at low percents and they do more damage, and with the idea that most of the KOs in this matchup should come from gimps, building damage to get Marth offstage I believe is the priority.

Marth is never supposed to approach with rising fair or nair against the Marios...

"crouching" won't work against good Marths unfortunately :/

You can argue that Marth isn't supposed to approach Mario that way, but my point is that it's not actually that simple for Marth to wall Mario. Marth's best hitboxes for that purpose are generally weak ground moves, which have implied unsafety against crouch cancels. And slight misspaces are punishable with Mario's F-smash which can change the momentum very quickly.

I'm of course agreeing Marth definitely has the advantage, but I don't think he shuts down Mario to the point where Mario can't do some random things that can put the momentum very noticeably in his favor. Marth usually also doesn't kill that early without a D-air gimp or a tipper F-smash kill, so there is a little more margin for error in this matchup than some of Mario's worse matchups imo.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mario is pretty easy to edgeguard with Marth.

 

[Archangel]

in case anybody cares, i stopped reading this thread because the posts had too much content. There really isnt anything to debate here. post your opinions on the matchups and move on. Fight each other in PMs or something....

I don't care.


<3 Sveet.

Actually I already said that I agree with you on your point about community being afraid, lazy whateva..


The fact is just that Mario is not a better character beacause Mango plays him.
Pikachu is not 55:45 against Marth (like someone said) because of Axe, and Puff is not even with Fox.
And Mewtwo STILL sucks, even if there is Taj that is REALLY good. But it's Taj that IS good, not Mew2. Mango is GOOD not Mario. (Mario is not that bad anyway)

You can OBVIOUSLY learn more on the MU watching Mango playing Mario against Marth. And that's great.
But, for example, Falcon-Sheik is very BAD for Falcon, and after Mango vs M2K sets in this MU, everyone can see how that MU is kinda 70-30.

If there is some Falcon somewhere ****** Sheiks, and he is too good, fine, he's just good against Sheik. This doesn't change the MU. More credit to him I guess. If this random Falcon plays M2K, I guess he will get whooped.

And no, not because M2K is an unbeateble robot, but 'cause M2K's Sheik is the best in this MU at the moment, and he ***** the best Falcons in the world. Confirming theories about this MU.

Same for Mario vs Marth.
Mario must trick and bait in order to get into Marth's zone and combo the **** out of him. But there are kinda safe ways Marth can play that make feel Mario a sad panda. Just like Fox against every low tier (against everyone actually). Fox can just spam and grab and win. No matter what. No matter who.

DK sucks, even if BUM! beats lots of Foxes.

ok dear we'll have to continue this discussion at a later time but we should call it quits for now because the kids are getting upset. Alright? friends?

Mario is pretty easy to edgeguard with Marth.

I can usually grab the edge, Hit him with an aerial then grab the edge, time a dtilt then grab the edge, stick my lead foot off of the side then time counters forever, time Dair on the edge, and last and probably least effective, Fsmash at Mario's Wallet/Glove.

 

[stelzig]

I think personally the reason why players like Mew2King and Mango are often sick of the community is because they can never get credit for what they do anymore. If he wins it's because he's Mango or because he's M2K the robot. That's some bull**** IMO and people should start acknowledging them as...human at least lol. I mean seriously think about it. Mango starts using MARIO and winning or getting 2nd with MARIO!!! Beat Armada and Hungrybox in MM's/ several friendlies with MAAARIIIOOO!!!!!! What do people say? "oh thats mango it doesn't count" If I was him I'd be like **** you guys I'm retiring!!!.....oh wait.

Saying people are so good that they don't count isn't acknowledging them?

Edit: And as overlord also says it's not like people don't look at how the best players perform with their mains to pick up strategies (both for and against). I doubt a mario main would say "oh it's just mango so i'm not gonna be able to learn anything from this mario" lol.

 

[Archangel]

Saying people are so good that they don't count isn't acknowledging them?

Edit: And as overlord also says it's not like people don't look at how the best players perform with their mains to pick up strategies. I doubt a mario main would say "oh it's just mango so i'm not gonna be able to learn anything from this mario" lol.

That's true. However who main's mario these days? if I won a tournament with a character that is considered incapable of winning an event or even making it out of pools I would want some kind of praise aside from oh well...it's just Mango wining.

it's no coincidence that all Player that rise to the rank of number start to instantly hate the game


G'night...****ing almost 6:00 AM FUUUUUUUUU-

 

[OverLord]

ok friends <3

 

[VGmasta]

MARTH IS A BROKEN CHARACTER AND SLAUGHTERS DR MARIO 24/7
Marth vs Doc--- 70:30 in Marth's favor

 

[Archangel]

ok friends <3

Yay!

<(^_^)> Kirby is happy!!!!!!

MARTH IS A BROKEN CHARACTER AND SLAUGHTERS DR MARIO 24/7
Marth vs Doc--- 70:30 in Marth's favor

I think Doc does the worst out of the 3 mario bros. However It's only by a smidge. Maybe 65-35 though imo 70-30 is kinda much.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

marth vs falcon 55:45 or even. I see marth's advantage now :D

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

on marth vs doc & mario:

doc is a bit heavier than mario and also slightly smaller so he can get out of combos a little better than mario. Also, i find that doc's moves get significantly less ***** by CC and are better overall in terms of knockback and angle (notably dsmash, bair and fair).

The only place mario has an advantage in my eyes is in raw recovery distance. They both get edge guarded by marth equally as efficiently, so its kind of a moot point.

my ratings:
vs doc- 60:40
vs mario- 65:35 (or 62.5 bull****)

 

[Diakonos]

I beat smashmac with Marth, even though I hardly know the matchup.

Even so, I think Doc does better vs. Marth than Mario does, for the same reasons sveet (not sweet) mentioned. Does the fireball/pill distinction make much difference, I wonder?

 

[Winston]

@ sveet

fsmash range is a pretty big difference that's in Mario's favor, considering it gives Mario a move that outranges aerials and tends to hit Marth's arm if he fsmashes or something

 

[Archangel]

I beat smashmac with Marth, even though I hardly know the matchup.

Even so, I think Doc does better vs. Marth than Mario does, for the same reasons sveet (not sweet) mentioned. Does the fireball/pill distinction make much difference, I wonder?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Fsmash. Pills. Its so minor guys. Doc and Mario do about the same against Marth. I feel that whatever number you give one, you have to give to the other; yes, one might do better than another, but its not enough to make a 5 point difference imo.

How bout we talk about the matchups that no one agrees on? The ones where we can't submit a number to the chart yet because we have such disagreement? Like Pikachu and Jiggs.

 

[Diakonos]

LOL Spam -> -> .

I agree with Blur, almost all the time.

Jiggs is hard to rate because HBox and Mango are the jiggs we think of... and they're the best, lol. Well, you already heard my two cents.

 

[Archangel]

If Hbox and Mango = Highest level of Puff and M2K = Highest level of Marth Then Marth vs Puff = Puff Favor no matter what numbers you put up.

 

[OverLord]

M2K doesn't play good against Puff with Marth.

 

[Archangel]

M2K doesn't play good against Puff with Marth.

Well what about Strawhats? Has vs Darc? If I'm not Mistaken They played at Pound 4 and Darc one. unless that was a different puff???? Either way..idk.


Best Marths vs Best Jiggs = Slight Jiggs. Now Me vs My Neighbor's Jiggs is different story..

 

[OverLord]

I think Marths should try to be more Ken-esque in that MU.

 

[Archangel]

I think Marths should try to be more Ken-esque in that MU.

Ken cashed out before Jiggs's peak. I can see where you are going with this though. Puff's of his time even some of the same players like Mango and Hbox are nothing like their 2010 selves.

It would kinda be like saying Samus players should play vs Fox like Wes did and then posting Matches of him 4stocking Mew2King's fox back in 04.

It's just.....idk how to explain that one. I think I know where your going but I'm not sure. Want to elaborate plz?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If Hbox and Mango = Highest level of Puff and M2K = Highest level of Marth Then Marth vs Puff = Puff Favor no matter what numbers you put up.

by that logic, puff must have an advantage on fox and falco and everyone else in the game too.

Stop trying to avoid discussion on the topic with random bull**** like this

 

[strawhats]

M2K doesn't play good against Puff with Marth.

literally m2k hates puff vs. marth some reason...his marth is not as efficient, spacing and decision making wise against puff as he was back in 07-08. However just like someone had mentioned with Ken...Hbox and mango are way better players (especially mango who has literally transcended the metagame, that mutha fuka is he metagame lol).

Someone mentioned this to me once but they basically said mango has the perfect puff (that ***** is sooo fast). Back to question at hand.....how would m2k's marth (frame perfect basically) back in '07-'08 do against puffs like Hbox and Mango of 2010 (more importantly mango). No offense to Hbox, but i believe his style of puff would play into m2k's previous (pre-brawl playstlye) which was a more precise, patient, not running into the **** kind of style. Hence why i believe shiz hasn't broken through against m2k.

Mango has also said that if M2K played like he did when he was the best and stopped playing brawl...welll basically mango would actually try.

But like you've all said m2k (2010) doesnt do welll in that MU (hence why he uses fox) and mango and Hbox eat fox for breakfast, lunch, and dinner

This is literally the best i've seen Jason play against Puff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1pT_56wWyM

Mango wasn't as good as he is now though.

Mango on the rise of his supremacy though vs. m2k was pretty epic though

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajY0BnPq-Fw

 

[Archangel]

by that logic, puff must have an advantage on fox and falco and everyone else in the game too.

Stop trying to avoid discussion on the topic with random bull**** like this

Puff does have at least a slight advantage over almost everyone with the exception of even match-ups. There is no such thing as a Puff Counter.

except IC's with Wobbling Legalized.....

 

[Roneblaster]

marth vs falcon 80:20 or even. I see marth's advantage now :D

i agree. glad you finally came around.

(<3 marth players)

 

[Archangel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLNE6v3D3_c

First Match Im Falcon second I'm Marth....same outcome...except he ragequit

 

[OverLord]

Ken cashed out before Jiggs's peak. I can see where you are going with this though. Puff's of his time even some of the same players like Mango and Hbox are nothing like their 2010 selves.

It would kinda be like saying Samus players should play vs Fox like Wes did and then posting Matches of him 4stocking Mew2King's fox back in 04.

It's just.....idk how to explain that one. I think I know where your going but I'm not sure. Want to elaborate plz?

Ken just had a different playstyle, that I think works better.
Nowadays Marths are afraid of Puffs and stand in place throwing aerials to nothing.


Lol @ Puff having no counters and no disadvantages. Made my day.

 

[Archangel]

Ken just had a different playstyle, that I think works better.
Nowadays Marths are afraid of Puffs and stand in place throwing aerials to nothing.

Lol @ Puff having no counters and no disadvantages. Made my day.

I never said Puff doesn't have any disadvantages. I said she has no counters. Assuming your talking about a "Good" Puff not just a puff in general.

She's light
has terrible reach overall
slow as hell on the ground.
does bad on Yoshi's Story

Those are her disadvantages in a nutshell.

Still she's got an advantage against the Majority of the Cast and has a few Even Match-ups depending on stage bans....There isn't someone you can pick to beat Puff definitively. You can only go as far as having an even shot more or less.


Ken's outsmarted everyone he played for the most part. He had a strange level of read that worked wonders on all but a few of his foes. I think part of it though has to do with the overall playstyle and playspeed of those days though. Mindgame players beat everyone from the beginning until around 07-present when the overall gameplay speed got much faster all of a sudden. I'd be interested in seeing how He'd perform if given time to catch up with the new game speed. Mindgame players still beat alot of the raw technical players but it's alot more difficult these days.

 

[Druggedfox]

...........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1pT_56wWyM

I'm surprised no one has commented on this. It's a pretty nice display of how to play against puff, though you'd have to mix it up a bit more. M2K got into way too many patterns while doing this, but the mindset is really good. He used a lot of low lag move combinations, such as:

auto canceled nair
downtilt
tap a

He often used those as a string, and it works so amazingly because of things like, only 3 frames of landing lag, a 22 frame IASA (unless my memory is wrong) and a low lag tap a that you can't be punished for if jiggs is shielding with correct spacing. Ideas like that are so great to watch when they're put into play... thanks so much for the link, it was a great memory =D

 

[Archangel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CSjPMnuZi4

 

[Dart!]

Why are marths afraid of jigglypuff? that's half the reason why the falcon matchup isn't heavily in marths favor because most marth mains are ******* apparently?

no way, step it up guys. we got dis

 

[Druggedfox]

Look at the difference between how M2K plays those two matches... its ridiculous. Aside from the fact that mango is obviously significantly better... look at the approach m2k takes in that one. Nothing I mentioned about what's SO good about the first match is even there in the RoM match... It's kind of sad, honestly.

The difference is sooooo obvious

Why M2K, Why.

 

[Divinokage]

Get mental blocked.

 

[Archangel]

Look at the difference between how M2K plays those two matches... its ridiculous. Aside from the fact that mango is obviously significantly better... look at the approach m2k takes in that one. Nothing I mentioned about what's SO good about the first match is even there in the RoM match... It's kind of sad, honestly.

The difference is sooooo obvious

Why M2K, Why.

They both play different though. that's the thing. You could argue that recent could've won in 07. I'm not sure you could argue that the other way around.

I'll admit 1 thing though. M2K Fight's like a meathead in matches that frustrate him nowadays. If only he was more patient and just didn't do some things. For instance vs Armada there was a point when Armada used his Jump and his only option back down safely was an airdodge. Instead of waiting for him to come down M2K jumped up and hit him with an aerial and got smacked to his death....

 

[Niko45]

Man I remember when that video of Ken beating Mango's puff on Dreamland impressed me.

Then I realized that was from 07.

 

[strawhats]

They both play different though. that's the thing. You could argue that recent could've won in 07. I'm not sure you could argue that the other way around.

I'll admit 1 thing though. M2K Fight's like a meathead in matches that frustrate him nowadays. If only he was more patient and just didn't do some things. For instance vs Armada there was a point when Armada used his Jump and his only option back down safely was an airdodge. Instead of waiting for him to come down M2K jumped up and hit him with an aerial and got smacked to his death....

I honestly believe with all my heart and soul (and not because eggm has told me this, or because mango considers m2k in his prime to be his greatest challenge, or even because m2k is the marth that inspired me to main marth) that if m2k played like the m2k of late 06(FCD m2k his prime), the M2K of 07 (the middle or height of his prime) and '08 m2k (the latter half of his prime) and continued to play melee developing marth's metagame even further and continuing to get better (I know it seems like a stretch for m2k who was frame perfect to get even better and exceed his prime) with no interruption and no experience with Brawl (no Brawl interruption); BASICALLY i believe that m2k vs. mango would be the most epic battle that a smasher could ever imagine or hope to witness. (thats just me being a fan of competitve smash at its height, which will sadly never happen since these two don't take this game seriously anymore).

 

[Archangel]

Sometimes your love for Jason is a little....bizzare

I know what you mean. I think because Mango and M2K Killed the Hype at Rom1 they are fated to never play in Grandfinals again. Mango will either get drunk and get eliminated or M2K will lose to someone else. Armada has become his new Mango it seems. That and occasional upsets from someone like Zhu.Everyone has got so much better since M2K's prime. Thats something even the most fanatical of fans always overlook.(Myself included). Even if M2K spent a solid year playing nothing but Melee there is no guarentee he'd win. In fact as people improve the odds of M2K placing top 3 will shrink and then top5 and so on. It's nothing to do with M2K at this point. There are just so many hella good players now.

How long before the Current Top3 Mango, Hbox, Armada are replaced? People like Axe, and Dr.PP had Amazing showings at Apex. The younger players like Hax, PewPewU, Sfat...etc are showing amazing promise. While others like Jman, Amsah, Zhu, DSW, SilentSpectre, Darkrain, Darc, Kage, Taj,...list could go on for days of people who are very good or very tough opposition for anyone. In a years time Top 5 at any major international tournament will be a complete toss-up.

 

[Diakonos]

Guys you're just lucky you didn't see me at MY prime back in '05, it would have been done.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Prime rib discussions always make me hungry.