Marth's Match-Up Chart thread

[Niko45]

Yea I don't know very much about fighting Jiggs so I prefer not to comment on it but yea I think currently Marth does beat Fox by a bit.

As far as SDIing up airs goes yea that's a huge deal but in response to this lots and lots of Foxes are now very consistent at up smashing from waveshines so it makes up a lot of the lost KO potential from up air (though not all of it obviously cause not every grab comes off a waveshine). It really wasn't very long ago when Foxes were like never ever up smashing marth out of waveshines. The other thing is that if you SDI and they back air you will DI that back air horribly and probably die so it becomes a 50/50 in KOing situations. But yea with an emphasis on the low % triple uairs it's huge to be able to escape that...

I'm not sure what you mean by SDIing shine and grabbing him out of it. Your stun time is cancelled if you get shined from the air to the ground which I think is what you might be talking about so sometimes you will see marth grab fox out of nair shine cause the nair puts him in the air and then the shine goes air to ground. If you are grounded during the shine like on a dair shine you can't escape the stun and Fox will combo you.

As far as DIing shines in general you can change the distance you slide but not the stun and Fox can combo off it regardless.

And yea overall right now I think Marth has a slight adv on Fox.

 

[Mahone]

wait what?

i thought if you smashdi the shine away you can grab fox out of waveshine...

this also resolves the issue of getting waveshine upsmashed, if you smashdi away you might be able to grab first (not sure), but you should be able to dash away to dodge the upsmash...

im not sure, but haven't u seen like m2k grab foxes outta their waveshine?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

if u wanna act like you know the matchup rather than learn it its ur call man... sorry for the "callout"

No no, you're definitely right about that. All I mean when I say that usually is in comparison to my other matchups. Have you SEEN me v. Falco? Its pri bad. So when I say I **** Jiggs I mean I **** Jiggs harder than any other character.

That kind of mentality can easily get me in the habit of ignoring possible improvements in my stronger matchups, so thats a valid point tho.

In more serious matters I propose a new scale for matchups. Instead of numbers, matchups will be classified as Beautiful, Poetry-in-Motion, or God's Gift to Mankind.

I'll admit, thats pretty funny.

But srsly Jiggs/Marth would fall under the "God's gift to mankind" category no question.

 

[Niko45]

I've never seen marth grab fox out of a grounded waveshine, no.

I'm pretty sure they can still do whatever they want on away DI on the shine but I'm not positive on that.

Also thanks for that magus link I've been looking for that. I guess maybe it does work on Jiggs then. I wasn't trying to say pivot fsmashing is a waste cause obviously its better to always tipper on missed DI plus I think with some more exploration random pivot fsmashes out of DD could become useful.

It also helps cover a gap in his spacing game where stationary you might be just out of range but a WD dtilt/fsmash/ftilt approach would be overextending.

 

[crush]

i think you can only grab fox out of a waveshine if you CC, but im probably ********

 

[Niko45]

You can't CC shine in the sense that you can't halve the stun, only alter how far you slide.

 

[Mahone]

No no, you're definitely right about that. All I mean when I say that usually is in comparison to my other matchups. Have you SEEN me v. Falco? Its pri bad. So when I say I **** Jiggs I mean I **** Jiggs harder than any other character.

That kind of mentality can easily get me in the habit of ignoring possible improvements in my stronger matchups, so thats a valid point tho.



I'll admit, thats pretty funny.

But srsly Jiggs/Marth would fall under the "God's gift to mankind" category no question.

ya, i know what you mean, you do **** jiggs compared to other matchups, im just giving u a hard time cuz i know that u know that I know that U know a ****load about marth but don't apply it all hahaha

I've never seen marth grab fox out of a grounded waveshine, no.

I'm pretty sure they can still do whatever they want on away DI on the shine but I'm not positive on that.

Also thanks for that magus link I've been looking for that. I guess maybe it does work on Jiggs then. I wasn't trying to say pivot fsmashing is a waste cause obviously its better to always tipper on missed DI plus I think with some more exploration random pivot fsmashes out of DD could become useful.

It also helps cover a gap in his spacing game where stationary you might be just out of range but a WD dtilt/fsmash/ftilt approach would be overextending.

wow thats crazy... i gotta know now, i thought it was a common knowledge thing, but if a marth main like u says no then im probably just wrong... i think its cuz the foxes i play (and when im playing fox vs. marth) don't do the wavedash full length... maybe at higher level it doesn't work...

but haven't you ever noticed that you get ur shield up after the waveshine, but then you just get grabbed anyway? that happens to me all the time and if you try grabbing or dashing away or buffering something i find that you get it... but again... probably just foxes being scrubby

 

[leffen]

fthrow->pivot fsmash is hella ****
if they start DIng away (I dont think it actually helps like Magus said somewhere, but 99,9% do it anyway including armada etc) you can mixup with dthrow (since both are fast enough that they can't DI on reaction) and get a tipper/chaingrab from that ;o

also
fthrow->pivot fsmash makes marth dittos unplayable for me... so boring when;

fsmash>all other moves when (including grab) when spaced properly, really high reward
marth can only shield/counter it really

grab counters shield AND leads to fsmash (no, you can't DI away, even easier then puff imo)
marth has a horrible spotdodge so you cant even punish him if you read his grab

>___<

 

[Niko45]

you can't fthrow pivot fsmash marth if he DIs down and away. not even close

 

[leffen]

really? down is the same as down and away afaik btw and I hit it EVERYTIME I play marth dittos and try it ;o (several times people DI down and away on the tipper too and die at 10% so I think you can do it at some percent at least)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm pretty sure magus proved that you can't fthrow->fsmash on DI down and away, but if you pivot you can hit them.

 

[Construct]

Not sure about you guys, but doesn't all this fthrow to pivot fsmash stuff sound like just the thing marth needs? His problem is sealing kills; this seals kills. Why isn't it used more (srs question, i'm a nub)? Is it because executing a pivot fsmash is hard?

 

[Niko45]

I think somebody was possibly going to do TAS work on pivot fsmash to see what actually worked. Arcnatural, where you at?

Pivot fsmashing is really easy and everyone should learn it.

The marth players I've talked to who actually use pivot fsmashing (austinRC, arcnatural) have said fthrow pivot fsmash doesn't true combo even on a character like Peach (I was specifically asking about Peach at the time).

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Not sure about you guys, but doesn't all this fthrow to pivot fsmash stuff sound like just the thing marth needs? His problem is sealing kills; this seals kills. Why isn't it used more (srs question, i'm a nub)? Is it because executing a pivot fsmash is hard?

It's not too hard, but it does have strange timing because you are aiming for the tip of the sword, so the initial dash length is going to change based upon percent and DI. It's probably much easier to do a shortish WD fsmash, but I think that might take longer. shrug.

 

[leffen]

lol if marth mains weren't whiny ****s and were more like the fox players this would've been mastered for soooo long now


its a ****ing shame really

 

[knightpraetor]

Of course its not "wrong" to think that, what you posted are usually the reasons given as to why puff wins

There is just so much unexplored stuff in the matchup on the marth side...

for example, you can grab a crouching puff with your dash grab unless the puff uses the initial crouch animation, so you can bait the crouch and then still grab her

Also you can prevent a lot of the combos by being ready to di, there are a lot of circumstances where the correct di is neutral di, yet no one feels comfortable using that (including myself) because it feels weird not to choose either survival or combo di

Using pivots and wavelands are actually very good against her and not just flashy, but i rarely see marths do that as well...

also marths respect her too much offstage, like i said, try using shieldbreaker to edgeguard along with dair and dtilt when shes approaching the ledge from below... it forces her to be able to sing cancel grab sweetspot consistently (which is actually not that easy since depending on the number of jumps you have, you have to adjust the height since the later jumps don't give you like any height) and then using the dtilt iasa to make it harder for her to get back on, rather than just letting her recovery by throwing out that stupid fsmash everyone goes for because they hope it hits lol

Also i'll agree with you that marth has to work harder in the matchup, but isn't that true for most of his matchups? I thought the whole idea of marth is that hes good at maintaining an advantage and getting incremental advantages, but he doesn't have that auto kill like upthrow rest or falco's autocombos...

I will admit that being edgeguarded is pretty rough, there are some tricks but it still doesn't make up for how terrible it is, it is more important in this matchup than many others to focus on staying in the center of the stage, which honestly isn't super hard against puff compared to other, faster characters

I dunno, i just think a lot of the ideas about the matchup are outdated... at the tourney i went to last saturday, people were shouting out for the marth to kill me with side-b uptilt, and he hit like 2, but you can just di it if u know its coming (unless you are grounded iirc), and every marth goes for it thinking its so autocombo or something, rather than just spacing out a ftilt or something safer...

yeah, i go for side b tip fair or upair more honestly....side b uptilt does not have good risk reward against puffs with good di..at high percent they should be playing safe enough to avoid it.

also, don't overrate marth's mixups, jiggs really shouldn't get marth on one bthrow offstage; he should be getting it like 1/3 of the time or so...and when jigg is at higher percents where you can use the up b as a wall to keep him out, you are really safe.

another thing that i forgot to do yesterday is pulse my movement..(my own term for it...) for some reason i was just moving constantly while I think that the proper way to play the matchup is periodically stopping movement at the proper spacings so that you can tip jigg's bairs and movement. and yeah jiggs kills you instantly for a lot of stuff, so you should make sure you have the chance to do the same.

if you're constantly dashdancing/wavedashing like i was, then you're going to have trouble killing.

 

[Niko45]

lol if marth mains weren't whiny ****s and were more like the fox players this would've been mastered for soooo long now


its a ****ing shame really

we are all so embarrassed

 

[Construct]

Does c-stick work for pivot fsmash? Waiting on a new controller to come or i'd just go check.

 

[Fregadero]

Yes

 

[Aber]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ5ldPrGwKE


around 2:10.....Not sure exactly what happens but HBK lands the grab and if someone could explain exactly what did happen it'd be cool

 

[knightpraetor]

i'm curious too. but it is possible maybe smash DI up into grab ...that's what peaches do to punish foxes

 

[Mahone]

add #t=(number of mintues)m(number of seconds)s to youtube vids url...

its so ****ing annoying to have to go to that point and its so easy to do it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ5ldPrGwKE#t=2m10s


also, im 99% sure that happened because of the slant... if you shine on a slant it has like no stun or something, i forget the details, but ya... the slant

@also josh im eating... sorry i missed ur call.. if u wanna come over just head over

 

[ArcNatural]

I think somebody was possibly going to do TAS work on pivot fsmash to see what actually worked. Arcnatural, where you at?

Pivot fsmashing is really easy and everyone should learn it.

The marth players I've talked to who actually use pivot fsmashing (austinRC, arcnatural) have said fthrow pivot fsmash doesn't true combo even on a character like Peach (I was specifically asking about Peach at the time).

I asked both Strong Bad and ajp_Anton to look into it. Anton expressed interest, but as this is a big project in terms of what I asked, I don't think there is any sort of timetable for when it will happen. If either one wants to update this and say it's started feel free. But I believe Anton will sometime in the future taking a look at it.

Also in regards to Peach, I said I couldn't get it to work if I had Irish hold down and away before the grab even happened. But for all I know the pivot dash length could be incredibly short for it to work. There's also a possibility of kill ranges if you remove the floor (fthrow near edges) that is rather difficult to test.

Missing DI or DI away seemed to work sometimes, but I'm just not really aware of how guaranteed any of it is.

 

[Blistering Speed]

lol if marth mains weren't whiny ****s and were more like the fox players this would've been mastered for soooo long now


its a ****ing shame really

I actually kind of agree.

 

[Archangel]

lol if marth mains weren't whiny ****s and were more like the fox players this would've been mastered for soooo long now


its a ****ing shame really

Why don't you swap to Marth then? Since Falco, Fox, and Yoshi don't seem to be working out for you.

 

[Fregadero]

Dude I swear you ask for arguments on the Marth boards.

Marth v Sheik can be 45-55, if not closer.

 

[Tekk]

Spam, when will you stop trying to be witty and just ignore leffen's provocations instead ?

@Boat Mode: I don't think ratios closer than 60-40 are relevant, because they all mean that if you lose, you can't really blame it on the matchup (as Beat said).
In that way I agree with Max' post: we should focus more on finding new strategies in matchups, wether they are difficult or not, than trying to find that perfect ratio, which is a waste of time imo.

 

[Fregadero]

Oh I totally agree w/ you I was just using numbers to give an idea of how close I think it can be. The only reason I like numbers is because it gives you an idea of how even the matchup is, but I never use them to determine how the match will go.

A smart marth can go pretty even with a smart sheik. Dtilts all dai

 

[Beat!]

leffen's actually kind of picking up Marth as a secondary, Spam. Just super saiyan.

(@leffen sorry if that was supposed to be a secret or something :s)

Tekk speaks wise words.

 

[leffen]

I think its funny that Spam arrows comments about my "success" when you consider how AWFUL he is at the game

I mean, during my brief time with Yoshi I've done better than you have (and will) do with marth



also @Beat: Way to feed the ****** who already posts and flames me for every post I do, no matter the subject


and yeah, i'm considering playing some marth in tournament (maaaaybe). Its honestly largely because of the fact that 99% all marth mains are such so dumb(read: cry babies, cop outers, lazy and whiny *****es). Marth mains don't even try to explore the character (or to simply put to use things that are proven to be effective) and at the same time complain that the other characters being harder to defeat because they are actually developing their characters...

whats even more sad is the fact that there are COUNTLESS people who are smart like Tekk and who come here and give the marth players healthy advice and they just ignore it and continue on whining

oh and you have a guaranteed FD pick every set now... and you'll get to start on YS/BF/FOD everytime ;o

 

[Divinokage]

Marth ditto MM live!

 

[knightpraetor]

are there no bans in best of 3 or only in best of 5? wondering just how guaranteed my FD counterpick is

 

[Niko45]

Occupy Marth! We are the 99%!

 

[Beat!]

#occupymarthboards

 

[Construct]

less occupying, more anti-sheik advice.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

To beat sheik:

Cactuar likes to call it the sheik "triangle" aka the threat of her needles from a fullhop/platform. Stay outside of that range and poke. You have more range. Don't get grabbed, since that will make you eat a ton of damage. Make sure you get your punish game working; generally Uthrow->utilt and follow with fairs if she jumps (at low percents) as dthrow tech chase stuff doesn't work as well on sheik due to her long tech roll. Marth can actually edgeguard sheik very well. To see good examples of the match-up watch Azen's marth vs sheiks or M2K's marth vs sheiks (i know he played vs drephen idk if there are other sets)

 

[Niko45]

Get her off stage asap and hit her for free as she recovers on stage.

Fthrow tech chasing ***** her at high %.

 

[leffen]

learn to pivot tipper her asap when she lands on stage with up B

if they spam ledgehop->needles try mixing it up by jumping forward and countering them (lol).
Catches their jump and gives you a ez edgeguard.

learn to bait/shield her dash attacks

 

[Niko45]

why would they spam ledge hop needles when they can spam waveland invincibility

when she's on the ledge back off and don't get hit

 

[Construct]

Very helpful stuff, thanks! That summed up pretty much everything I was wondering, lol.