Marth's Match-Up Chart thread

[Niko45]

If they DI down and away, then you can just mixup your throws and hit them with the fsmash. If they DI down, you cant mixup your throw to throw->fsmash and instead you have to pivot fsmash.

Thing is, you're probably destroying this Jiggs anyway if you're getting that many grabs that you're exercising real conditioning and mixups on them.

 

[Beat!]

welcome to what I said 3 pages ago

... huh. Sorry 'bout that. I tend to skim through the Marth threads sometimes.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Thing is, you're probably destroying this Jiggs anyway if you're getting that many grabs that you're exercising real conditioning and mixups on them.

Could be the difference between having a few reads but not being able to convert them to kills (one of marth's weaknesses on floaties) and winning the game

 

[Archangel]

I watched a set between FullMetal and Everlastyay(fox) where the majority of the time he EAST COAST THE ****! out of most of FullMetal's attacks. Once he got to a certain percent he was just able to run around and avoid getting hit with a finishing blow and he could take 1 or 2 stocks with 120+ damage.

 

[Veetaak]

... huh. Sorry 'bout that. I tend to skim through the Marth threads sometimes.

Blasphemy!

 

[Mahone]

@crimson

oh my bad i thought u were confused at how it worked... rather than how he specifically phrased it...

also, i have seen people get away with it, so regardless of what the actual rule is, a lot of old school TOs seem to think you can go to a stage u ban

 

[Strong Badam]

where is magus' information on fthrow pivot fsmash?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I believe it was in the old match-up chart thread

 

[Construct]

where is magus' information on fthrow pivot fsmash?

Here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10484407&postcount=5905

 

[Strong Badam]

that does not look like down & away DI

 

[Construct]

that does not look like down & away DI

Magus tested it against down DI. Leffen said the two were the same in that situation, I genuinely have no idea.

 

[Strong Badam]

they are different by approximately 45 degrees

 

[Construct]

Well, so much for that then. :-(

 

[Fregadero]

I can't test it now but is there any chance ftilt would work better out of pivot? It comes out 3 frames quicker, idk if thats enough to make a difference.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you can prob just fthrow ftilt lol

 

[Construct]

I can't test it now but is there any chance ftilt would work better out of pivot? It comes out 3 frames quicker, idk if thats enough to make a difference.

Is it feasible to ftilt out of a pivot? Seems like it'd be pretty hard. Plus I think ftilt's reach is a bit shorter than fsmash's anyways. Worth experimenting with though!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ftilt is longer than fsmash, but it doesnt hit as far close to the ground. It also has less knockback.

and yes you can ftilt out of pivot. Samus players do it all the time

 

[Fregadero]

Yeah its just harder.

I wanna test it out,but tippered ftilt on the smaller neutrals puts floaties in their place (dead at < 150%).

I feel like pivot/wd out of fthrow would give you the distance you need to hit w/ it at percent where a tipper can kill.

 

[MaxThunder]

What? You're not making any sense. Why'd you say "he could have meant he'd be able to pick FD in the event he loses game 3..." if you didn't think he was talking about bo5s? In bo3, if you lose g3 you're done. There aren't bans in bo7s and so on either sooooo I don't see your point.

If he was talking about bo3s his post doesn't make sense cause the winner of game 2 doesn't pick the stage for game 3. And if he was talking about bo5s his post doesn't make sense because there are no bans in bo5s...

yeah... i just started arguing wierd cause i was bored... then i continued cause it was fun...

Edit: nobody told me i had to make sense anyways...

 

[Archangel]

I suggest everybody try using Ftilt in place of some grabs, Jabs, and Fsmashs. What you will find is that Ftilt is actually a very good move even though it doesn't really look or..feel like it's a good move at first. I think I'm going to just start ftilting at everyone...the **** is broken.

 

[Anand]

that does not look like down & away DI

Magus tested it against down DI. Leffen said the two were the same in that situation, I genuinely have no idea.

they are different by approximately 45 degrees

Haha, well, if the launch angle of Marth's fthrow is 22.5 degrees (above horizontal), I think they'd be the same.


What is the launch angle, anyway? (Is there an easy-to-use list of damage / knockback / launch angle stuff anywhere? (The way hitbox gifs and frame data are so accessible these days.))

 

[leffen]

Could be the difference between having a few reads but not being able to convert them to kills (one of marth's weaknesses on floaties) and winning the game

this, its basically a uthrow rest ;o

 

[Fregadero]

I suggest everybody try using Ftilt in place of some grabs, Jabs, and Fsmashs. What you will find is that Ftilt is actually a very good move even though it doesn't really look or..feel like it's a good move at first. I think I'm going to just start ftilting at everyone...the **** is broken.

Abusing dtilts iasa frames into ftilt is awesome.

Dtilt is also a fantastic move

 

[ArcNatural]

Abusing dtilts iasa frames into ftilt is awesome.

Dtilt is also a fantastic move

When I find Zoso's gif of him dtilting then turning around to avoid Sheik's grab I'm going to add it here.

Dtilt to bait grabs is HEAVILY underused. Anyone know if misspaced shffl fair to dtilt is safe from shield grabs between the fair and dtilt if you do it late enough?

EDIT: Dtilt avoids grab

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dtilt hits on frame 7, so unless fair is neutral or better on block, no it is not safe.

 

[Aber]

I suggest everybody try using Ftilt in place of some grabs, Jabs, and Fsmashs. What you will find is that Ftilt is actually a very good move even though it doesn't really look or..feel like it's a good move at first. I think I'm going to just start ftilting at everyone...the **** is broken.

"Doesn't look or feel like a good move." Wtf? What does that even mean? Nothing you say ever makes sense.

 

[Fregadero]

dtilt hits on frame 7, so unless fair is neutral or better on block, no it is not safe.

Non-tippered fairs aren't going to do 12% or more so they're not safe.

But with shield stun the opponent is only going to have about a 3 frame window to grab, depending on how low you are when you hit, how diminished fair is, where you hit w/ fair, and how quickly you can dair after the l cancel.

 

[Archangel]

"Doesn't look or feel like a good move." Wtf? What does that even mean? Nothing you say ever makes sense.

what's so confusing? I'm simply stating if you are one of those people who never uses the ftilt then it takes some getting use to. then you start to realize how good it actually is.

 

[Aber]

I just thought it funny how you said that it may not seem good and seem like a bad move......When it is easy to see that it is an AMAZING move which I for one use quite a bit.....Its also funny how every once in a while you see a marth come on the boards realizing this and say WOW FTILT IS SOOO GOOD you don't even know as if they're genuis' that have discovered some sort of revelation

And it "feels" great. Like a fly swatter lol

 

[Archangel]

I just thought it funny how you said that it may not seem good and seem like a bad move......When it is easy to see that it is an AMAZING move which I for one use quite a bit.....Its also funny how every once in a while you see a marth come on the boards realizing this and say WOW FTILT IS SOOO GOOD you don't even know as if they're genuis' that have discovered some sort of revelation

And it "feels" great. Like a fly swatter lol

You are at a disconnect. It's not a particularly new discovery for me personally. It was about 9 months ago. I was in a way trying to explain the feeling/train of thought of someone who discovers it.

I probably should have said "I suggest everyone(who doesn't already) try using Ftilt in place of some grabs, Jabs, and Fsmashs.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

On topic: How many philosophers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Spoiler

1 to screw it in and another the curse the other for living in the dark his whole life

 

[Archangel]

Marth vs Pikachu How much do marth's really know about this match-up at high levels? and at the highest level what is it really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkbPFToWPdw

for example.

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkjvcf3YaDM

How do we have fight those "random god of low tiers" or is it possible that alot of Marth's MU are...overestimated or simply based on 04-06 results?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

When I find Zoso's gif of him dtilting then turning around to avoid Sheik's grab I'm going to add it here.

Dtilt to bait grabs is HEAVILY underused. Anyone know if misspaced shffl fair to dtilt is safe from shield grabs between the fair and dtilt if you do it late enough?

from Strong bad:
low nair is -1
perfect AC nair is -2
late uair and late fair are +0

I'd assume misspaced fair is worse by a few frames since it is weaker.

Dtilt comes out on frame 7. So do most shield grabs, with some exceptions (Zelda, Y.Link, Link, Samus, Yoshi, Bowser, Ness, DK).

So other than for those matchups, no, misspaced fair to dtilt doesn't technically beat shieldgrab. However, it barely doesn't work (by a frame or two assuming thats the difference between a weak and a strong fair) and I wouldn't expect most people to be able to shield grab exactly when their shield stun ends. I think its much easier to time a dtilt after an lcanceled weak fair than a shieldgrab after shieldstun so its not the worst idea in the world.

Not the greatest either because it loses to many usual OOS options (shine oos in particular..) and because dashing after the weak fair (away or through them depending on the matchup) is way, way better in every conceivable situation.

On topic: How many philosophers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Spoiler

1 to screw it in and another the curse the other for living in the dark his whole life

This is an awesome post.

 

[t-iceman]

Marth vs Pikachu How much do marth's really know about this match-up at high levels? and at the highest level what is it really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkbPFToWPdw

for example.

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkjvcf3YaDM

How do we have fight those "random god of low tiers" or is it possible that alot of Marth's MU are...overestimated or simply based on 04-06 results?

I think there is some truth to that but honestly i think that in both cases the pikachu was the better player so it's not really a good way to show the mu. Even after playing axe i still think its in marths favor, you just have to space pikachu out like any other low tier character. Fair is gonna beat all of pika's aerial approaches and down tilt beats all of his ground approaches but obviously you cant sleep on pika or you will get messed up.

 

[Bing]

f-tilt is actually really good, I use it in place of a lot of f-smashes, its faster and has decent knockback

 

[Archangel]

I think there is some truth to that but honestly i think that in both cases the pikachu was the better player so it's not really a good way to show the mu. Even after playing axe i still think its in marths favor, you just have to space pikachu out like any other low tier character. Fair is gonna beat all of pika's aerial approaches and down tilt beats all of his ground approaches but obviously you cant sleep on pika or you will get messed up.

I don't disagree with it being in Marth's favor. As for his Fair and Dair you could say that about pretty much every character in the roster.

Personally I have the MU 56:44 in Marth's favor. Mainly because Pikachu is like a fat shineless, gunless Fox. Aside from..the gun and shine he can exploit weaknesses in Marth the same way. He is just a little slower and easier to kill at times.(the exception being the easy gimps you get on fox.).

Basically I was hoping for some more detailed answers on the MU. Not talking about LVL9 CPU Pika's or your friends Pikachu as a third string character but the highest levels of Pika. Just in the event I run into a very good one.

 

[knightpraetor]

played my 3rd set ever against a pikachu main last tourney ....

feeels hard...but any matchup would feel hard if you had never played the matchup

 

[Archangel]

I just think saying a match-up is randomly 60-40 or 70-30 just because characters are certain places on the tier list is kind of silly I think.

 

[Tekk]

Doesn't TAI play Axe a lot ? I'd assume he's pretty knowledgeable about that matchup.

 

[Archangel]

Yeah. I was waiting for a few who play Pikachad, Axe, Anther...etc.