Niko45
Smash Master
In New York I'm a giant Joell Hakim Nicks
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Marth's Match-Up Chart thread
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
Archangel
Smash Hero
I didn't play Hbox for an extended period of time but I am somewhat of a fast learner. Last time we were at a venue I played him with most of my characters. He **** on my falco, my fox did ok but then he fagged me, Sheik got DESTROYED. Marth was my best choice. I just took what I learned from the matches I got ***** in with other characters and applied it. I actually started using alot more Ftilts when I realized it shielded my lower half better and I could basically stay grounded without worrying. I occasionally faked a grab and I dtilt/jabbed to bait an aerial then I retreat fair'd or WD back Fsmashed depending on %. I'm not going to act like I didn't lose every game but 1 in terms of Marth vs Puff but though lol. Still I actually gained alot of confidence with my Marth in that MU. It's Hbox and he could not do better than a 2stock on me and I took a game(YS) so I knew it was doable.
Basically I think Marth vs Puff is even-ish. In fact it could be 55-45 either way depending on the stage. I think Puff's Favor on DL64. Marth's favor on YS. I think Everything else can be more or less even. Marth vs Puff is one of those MU's that are much easier in 2012 then they were in 2011 and prior because of all the counterpicks that were removed. Basically Puff beat Marth on Every counterpick..it was SO gay.
Mahone
Smash Champion
ya i'll agree with the stage stuff... puff wins on dl64 and won on all the weird counterpicks...
its pretty reasonable to say its even, i just don't like it when people act like its obv. puff favor
either way now its just coming off like im *****ing about marth players when really i don't care at all about what numbers they give out... i just wanted to know what you guys think of the matchup...
basically, what would you put under all of those categories?
its pretty reasonable to say its even, i just don't like it when people act like its obv. puff favor
either way now its just coming off like im *****ing about marth players when really i don't care at all about what numbers they give out... i just wanted to know what you guys think of the matchup...
basically, what would you put under all of those categories?
Archangel
Smash Hero
I honestly can't add much more onto what you said. It's basically the same approach I take to the MU. Treat it like you aren't afraid to time out and suddenly Marth vs Puff is easier. I think it was once really bad for Puff but with the new rules I think it's much better. It's 55-45 either way or just 50-50 imo. Don't see it going past that for any character right now.
Space Control: Fair/Ftilt vs Bair and Nair for the most part. Hbox had this weird Nair trade he started doing that really ****ed me up at times. Retreating with Fair solves that issue though so it becomes a guessing game overall.
Ground game: I think Marth wins a grounded game if you do not go for grabs. The range is just too great. If you start dominating the ground game you can set up for ground vs aerial battles that really **** puff up more than I expected. Basically forcing out jumps and then swatting Puff out of the sky is the objective.
Aerial game: Even if you win the war in the sky on paper as Marth Puff has alot of aerial mobility. Enough to faint out a fair and then Bair you. Depending on DI Puff can get extra damage, stage control, or possibly a stock. Aside from that you should in theory be able to beat out Puff's attacks in the air but it's a risk I found unnecessary and VERY dangerous to attempt consistently it can do fine as a mix up from ground attacks and surprise Puff from time to time though.
Neutral positions: If both players are playing correctly then from a neutral position it should look alot like M2K vs Shroomed did from neutral positions. Alot of spacing and almost Death Note status. In the sense that there is alot of mental or almost spiritual action going on. Without much actually happening. Careful spaced attacks from both sides means you could have stretches of 30 or more seconds when nobody gets hit with anything.
Edge game: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With that out of my system I will say killing Puff varies in difficulty depending on 3 things.
1. The stage you are on and
2. The amount of Jumps puff has left.
3. how good they are at the rising pound.
Space Control: Fair/Ftilt vs Bair and Nair for the most part. Hbox had this weird Nair trade he started doing that really ****ed me up at times. Retreating with Fair solves that issue though so it becomes a guessing game overall.
Ground game: I think Marth wins a grounded game if you do not go for grabs. The range is just too great. If you start dominating the ground game you can set up for ground vs aerial battles that really **** puff up more than I expected. Basically forcing out jumps and then swatting Puff out of the sky is the objective.
Aerial game: Even if you win the war in the sky on paper as Marth Puff has alot of aerial mobility. Enough to faint out a fair and then Bair you. Depending on DI Puff can get extra damage, stage control, or possibly a stock. Aside from that you should in theory be able to beat out Puff's attacks in the air but it's a risk I found unnecessary and VERY dangerous to attempt consistently it can do fine as a mix up from ground attacks and surprise Puff from time to time though.
Neutral positions: If both players are playing correctly then from a neutral position it should look alot like M2K vs Shroomed did from neutral positions. Alot of spacing and almost Death Note status. In the sense that there is alot of mental or almost spiritual action going on. Without much actually happening. Careful spaced attacks from both sides means you could have stretches of 30 or more seconds when nobody gets hit with anything.
Edge game: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With that out of my system I will say killing Puff varies in difficulty depending on 3 things.
1. The stage you are on and
2. The amount of Jumps puff has left.
3. how good they are at the rising pound.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Marth/Puff is an incredibly complex matchup on Marth's side; I find it super fun. It is the true test of how technical and in-control you are...ground spacing, aerial control, space control, off-stage baiting/reacting, etc...they are all tested. Its the only high tier matchup where a Marth gets to show off how well he can swing his sword for extended periods of time. And that is not to say there aren't approaches and the matchup is campy; the very nature of the constant aerial movement forces engagements unless the players are actively trying to avoid it.
I 100% agree with Mahone that just about no Marth plays it right. I actually have a tough time watching Marths way better than me play the matchup, because even though they'll still do well because they are such good players, many don't seem to have a very deep understanding of what to do...
Its a beautiful matchup and I wish more people would develop tech specifically for it, because I've found its really rewarding.
I 100% agree with Mahone that just about no Marth plays it right. I actually have a tough time watching Marths way better than me play the matchup, because even though they'll still do well because they are such good players, many don't seem to have a very deep understanding of what to do...
Its a beautiful matchup and I wish more people would develop tech specifically for it, because I've found its really rewarding.
Niko45
Smash Master
I really dont think you guys heard me. In new york I'm a GIANT joell hakim nicks!!!
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
We get it. They won the SuperBowl, which I predicted back when they lost to Green Bay in the regular season. What that has the do with the Marth MU I'll never know.I really dont think you guys heard me. In new york I'm a GIANT joell hakim nicks!!!
Back to the topic at hand, I love fighting puff and it's one of my better MUs. It can get pretty gay at times, but it feels like more of a 'back and forth' fight than say Marth v Fox where it's combo heaven.
Niko45
Smash Master
Nah i don't get it! Giants baby!!!
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
I knew that if I said it's like edgeguarding Sheik you would assume that I meant grab the ledge. I should have followed my better judgement but I thought you could read into the reply a little better. There are 3 styles of edgeguarding. 1) Go out there and hit. 2) Option covering 3) Wait and Bait/Abuse crappy recovery/whatever you wanna call it.
Marth vs Sheik is number 3, you wait on the ledge and abuse that crappy up b she has. Marth vs Peach is also number 3. You wait on stage and abuse the fact that she doesn't get back to the stage quickly with any recovery so you can hit her once she's committed to something.
Mahone
Smash Champion
Crimson, you have no idea what you're talking about but ok
Tekk
Smash Lord
I wish there was some recent vid of Salepate playing a puff; he really got that matchup right imo.
Eggz
Smash Hero
whos name droppin me >=[
Is it wrong that I think it's Puff favour, too? Not hopeless by any stretch, but I feel like Marth has to work quite a bit harder.
Being edgeguarded by Puff sucks. Being combo'd by Puff sucks. Approaching Puff isn't that great. By contrast, she has an easier recovery, tends not to get combo'd (2-3 hits?), and can normally approach with bair as long as she's not too predictable.
Marth relies heavily on tippers or perhaps an early dair for the kill. But what happens if he whiffs? Much pain. Marth also relies on grabs to lead into those tippers. What happens if she ducks? Pain. Marth's at low percent? Good, try to get an uair or something to rest. Marth's at mid percent? Bair him twice off stage. High percent? Bair him once and then edgeguard.
Marth has his tricks, too. I actually quite like ftilt against Puff. Dtilt -> grab or dtilt->ftilt is good. If you manage to hit her at 30 with a fair you can normally follow up a bit. But as mentioned, what you need to actually kill her might actually lead to your death. That is not fun.
Being edgeguarded by Puff sucks. Being combo'd by Puff sucks. Approaching Puff isn't that great. By contrast, she has an easier recovery, tends not to get combo'd (2-3 hits?), and can normally approach with bair as long as she's not too predictable.
Marth relies heavily on tippers or perhaps an early dair for the kill. But what happens if he whiffs? Much pain. Marth also relies on grabs to lead into those tippers. What happens if she ducks? Pain. Marth's at low percent? Good, try to get an uair or something to rest. Marth's at mid percent? Bair him twice off stage. High percent? Bair him once and then edgeguard.
Marth has his tricks, too. I actually quite like ftilt against Puff. Dtilt -> grab or dtilt->ftilt is good. If you manage to hit her at 30 with a fair you can normally follow up a bit. But as mentioned, what you need to actually kill her might actually lead to your death. That is not fun.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Puff's character design exacerbates Marth's inability to kill.
Mahone
Smash Champion
Of course its not "wrong" to think that, what you posted are usually the reasons given as to why puff wins
There is just so much unexplored stuff in the matchup on the marth side...
for example, you can grab a crouching puff with your dash grab unless the puff uses the initial crouch animation, so you can bait the crouch and then still grab her
Also you can prevent a lot of the combos by being ready to di, there are a lot of circumstances where the correct di is neutral di, yet no one feels comfortable using that (including myself) because it feels weird not to choose either survival or combo di
Using pivots and wavelands are actually very good against her and not just flashy, but i rarely see marths do that as well...
also marths respect her too much offstage, like i said, try using shieldbreaker to edgeguard along with dair and dtilt when shes approaching the ledge from below... it forces her to be able to sing cancel grab sweetspot consistently (which is actually not that easy since depending on the number of jumps you have, you have to adjust the height since the later jumps don't give you like any height) and then using the dtilt iasa to make it harder for her to get back on, rather than just letting her recovery by throwing out that stupid fsmash everyone goes for because they hope it hits lol
Also i'll agree with you that marth has to work harder in the matchup, but isn't that true for most of his matchups? I thought the whole idea of marth is that hes good at maintaining an advantage and getting incremental advantages, but he doesn't have that auto kill like upthrow rest or falco's autocombos...
I will admit that being edgeguarded is pretty rough, there are some tricks but it still doesn't make up for how terrible it is, it is more important in this matchup than many others to focus on staying in the center of the stage, which honestly isn't super hard against puff compared to other, faster characters
I dunno, i just think a lot of the ideas about the matchup are outdated... at the tourney i went to last saturday, people were shouting out for the marth to kill me with side-b uptilt, and he hit like 2, but you can just di it if u know its coming (unless you are grounded iirc), and every marth goes for it thinking its so autocombo or something, rather than just spacing out a ftilt or something safer...
There is just so much unexplored stuff in the matchup on the marth side...
for example, you can grab a crouching puff with your dash grab unless the puff uses the initial crouch animation, so you can bait the crouch and then still grab her
Also you can prevent a lot of the combos by being ready to di, there are a lot of circumstances where the correct di is neutral di, yet no one feels comfortable using that (including myself) because it feels weird not to choose either survival or combo di
Using pivots and wavelands are actually very good against her and not just flashy, but i rarely see marths do that as well...
also marths respect her too much offstage, like i said, try using shieldbreaker to edgeguard along with dair and dtilt when shes approaching the ledge from below... it forces her to be able to sing cancel grab sweetspot consistently (which is actually not that easy since depending on the number of jumps you have, you have to adjust the height since the later jumps don't give you like any height) and then using the dtilt iasa to make it harder for her to get back on, rather than just letting her recovery by throwing out that stupid fsmash everyone goes for because they hope it hits lol
Also i'll agree with you that marth has to work harder in the matchup, but isn't that true for most of his matchups? I thought the whole idea of marth is that hes good at maintaining an advantage and getting incremental advantages, but he doesn't have that auto kill like upthrow rest or falco's autocombos...
I will admit that being edgeguarded is pretty rough, there are some tricks but it still doesn't make up for how terrible it is, it is more important in this matchup than many others to focus on staying in the center of the stage, which honestly isn't super hard against puff compared to other, faster characters
I dunno, i just think a lot of the ideas about the matchup are outdated... at the tourney i went to last saturday, people were shouting out for the marth to kill me with side-b uptilt, and he hit like 2, but you can just di it if u know its coming (unless you are grounded iirc), and every marth goes for it thinking its so autocombo or something, rather than just spacing out a ftilt or something safer...
Archangel
Smash Hero
I understand the frustrations. Still it becomes a much easier MU to play if you stop thinking about killing and start thinking about winning via time-out
past a certain % you don't really have much you can do to kill a good puff. So you just have to hit them away and stay alive.
I will admit there is the chance you could get a puff to 188% and then get bair combo'd at 20% and suddenly find yourself losing.
past a certain % you don't really have much you can do to kill a good puff. So you just have to hit them away and stay alive.
I will admit there is the chance you could get a puff to 188% and then get bair combo'd at 20% and suddenly find yourself losing.
Mahone
Smash Champion
i dunno about this whole time out idea but ok
Tekk
Smash Lord
no
99noes
99noes
Mahone
Smash Champion
lol tekk... why the **** am i even on the marth boards what am i doing lol
Tekk
Smash Lord
I agree completely with your opinion tho; this matchup is one of the least explored (among the top tiers that this).
brotips for marths vs jiggs:
-dtilt => dsmash *****: dtilt on puff's shield will bait her to punish you oos, and downsmash is fast enough to prevent that; VERY useful when puff is at high %
-don't hesitate going offstage to edgeguard jiggs: FF fair upB to the ledge is hard for her to deal with, and is very safe
-puff HATES being offstage in this matchup: use bairs/dtilt/fairs to keep her away
-being on the edge is a very bad position for puff: wait for her to ledgehop/ledgedash then pressure/TOMAHAWK her
-crouch is easy to beat once you've learned how to consistently shffl dair (+it'll condition her to shield = free grabs/tomahawks)
-punish her nair/fair approaches with pivot grabs
just my 2cents from the experience I got playing Salepate
brotips for marths vs jiggs:
-dtilt => dsmash *****: dtilt on puff's shield will bait her to punish you oos, and downsmash is fast enough to prevent that; VERY useful when puff is at high %
-don't hesitate going offstage to edgeguard jiggs: FF fair upB to the ledge is hard for her to deal with, and is very safe
-puff HATES being offstage in this matchup: use bairs/dtilt/fairs to keep her away
-being on the edge is a very bad position for puff: wait for her to ledgehop/ledgedash then pressure/TOMAHAWK her
-crouch is easy to beat once you've learned how to consistently shffl dair (+it'll condition her to shield = free grabs/tomahawks)
-punish her nair/fair approaches with pivot grabs
just my 2cents from the experience I got playing Salepate
Beat!
Smash Master
IMO the matchup's close enough to the point where losing can't be blamed on the matchup at all, for either side. The discussion's good atm, but if we could just leave out the "Marth/Puff wins" part, I don't think anyone would miss it.
Also fthrow --> pivot fsmash is absolutely ****.
Oh, and props to Mahone and Tekk for providing matchup advice against their own character. Thanks guys =)
Also fthrow --> pivot fsmash is absolutely ****.
Oh, and props to Mahone and Tekk for providing matchup advice against their own character. Thanks guys =)
Archangel
Smash Hero
I didn't mean go for a time out. Just be prepared to play that way. Make the puff come after you instead of going aggro. That's basically what I meant.
Beat!
Smash Master
^I understand what you mean, but if you've established stage control I don't like the idea of just letting Puff back.
Ask Tai about the Bowser match-up. Go ahead. I'll be waiting here with my GIANT *** SMILE.
Mahone
Smash Champion
rofl... taj ur too good man, any chance you can get any friendlies of your marth uploaded... ur my favorite marth to watch 
Archangel
Smash Hero
oh I was talking about on stage only. If she is off stage you should give her something to worry about at the very least and look for a chance to kill her without getting reckless.
Beat!
Smash Master
Well yeah, but even if she's on stage I don't think you should be too passive if you have her cornered or something.
Archangel
Smash Hero
not at all. You just shouldn't be reckless. In alot of MU's you can create opportunities. It's like what HMW said during the Taj vs Mango set at genesis 2. The Ken Style of play where you "make **** happen". It's not something you can get away with against good Puffs that know how to fight Marth. You have to fight them off yes and when you get a dominant position hold it but once you can't kill Puff you have to back off or you are at risk of getting into that awkward moment. You know the moment when you get rested or Combo'd to death when you were winning the whole way and lose at the end...it's gay.
stelzig
Smash Lord
This "tip" annoyed me for so long because people never mentioned the initial crouch part. I never understood how anything other than the initial crouch should be a problem for marth... Most of his attacks can hit a crouching puff just fine.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
I was late to the party, but I'm watching this now. They seemed to have moderated themselves at this point.
Archangel
Smash Hero
You showed up so late it seems kind of pointless....Just random 2 points seemingly for no reason
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
And here i thought we had gotten away with it too... alas
Archangel
Smash Hero
Yeah I even unignored him and everything. We are practically the best of friends...wtf arc?
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Yeah I actually had a dream about holding his hand. I almost posted about it on the peach boards.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
lol all I said was Jiggs/Marth is super interesting and you call me out like that?Crimson, you have no idea what you're talking about but ok
Ur a douche
tho I do have a habit of telling everyone within earshot that I **** Jiggs all dai errday so I guess I'm not that innocent
Archangel
Smash Hero
What puffs do you ****? Just out of curiosity.
Niko45
Smash Master
I've been messing with fthrow pivot fsmash a lot lately and it turns out it doesn't combo. DI down and away escapes. I haven't tested with Jiggs really so I don't know for sure but since it doesn't work on anybody else I'll be surprised if it works on Jiggs.
In more serious matters I propose a new scale for matchups. Instead of numbers, matchups will be classified as Beautiful, Poetry-in-Motion, or God's Gift to Mankind.
In more serious matters I propose a new scale for matchups. Instead of numbers, matchups will be classified as Beautiful, Poetry-in-Motion, or God's Gift to Mankind.
Mahone
Smash Champion
if u wanna act like you know the matchup rather than learn it its ur call man... sorry for the "callout"
@NIKOOOOOOOOOOOOOO: u've been lurking each time ive posted but haven't said anything... its ok, at rom i think you told me you didn't really have jiggs experience, but u were getting better each game we played which was pretty ****ing scary lol...
i read ur big post about the weaknesses and i really liked it... one thing that no one seemed to mention was....
referring to ur thing about how fox's tech skill will continue to increase and marth doesn't really have as much room to improve (technically)... i always thought the fox-marth matchup was even, but recently i think its marth favor mainly because of smashding upthrow upair... how can the matchup have stayed even when fox could upthrow triple upair lol chillin... but now people can sdi like 90% of the time, you take away one of his MAIN kill moves... this along with consistently sdiing shine and grabbing him out of it make a HUGE difference in the matchup and they shouldn't be overlooked...
i will agree fox has potential too.. i have yet to see foxs mix up aerial-grab, aerial-shine-aerial (diff timings), aerial-shine-grab, aerial-doubleshine, etc., which would make it MUCH harder for the marth to deal with shield pressure... but it'll be a while before foxes do that (aka before mango does it)...
Mahone
Smash Champion
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10484407&postcount=5905I've been messing with fthrow pivot fsmash a lot lately and it turns out it doesn't combo. DI down and away escapes. I haven't tested with Jiggs really so I don't know for sure but since it doesn't work on anybody else I'll be surprised if it works on Jiggs.
In more serious matters I propose a new scale for matchups. Instead of numbers, matchups will be classified as Beautiful, Poetry-in-Motion, or God's Gift to Mankind.
thats di down... and magus has another post somewhere about how the dthrow does the same thing on down and away di, i'll try to find it...
even if it didn't it wouldn't matter though... we aren't playing super theory bros, the odds that they di down and away everytime if you fthrow immediately is very unlikely