Marth's Match-Up Chart thread

[Archangel]

Thats why you gotta use those spam arrows ratios man

 

[Bing]

Lmfao Spam_Arrows Ratios. Too Good

 

[Max?]

I'm going to throw around my theory on matchup ratios, which might be slightly controversial, but I think makes a lot of sense and resolves a ton of the bull**** that surrounds making a good matchup chart.

IMO, there are really only 2 (sorta 3) matchups in the game.

Evenish (with either a nod towards the character who has a slight edge in theory, or a ? in place of a matchup that is undetermined)

AND

90-10


Examples

Fox vs Jiggs: Evenish, slight nod to Fox
Marth vs. Falco: Evenish?
Peach vs Icies: 90-10

My rationale for this is simple. Matchups are way too controversial, and people on this site cannot agree with numbers for the life of them. You can ask 5 different people about Marth/Fox and get 5 different answers. A big issue is that we can't even reach an agreement on what the numbers represent. Do they mean % that someone will win a match assuming equal skill? Or a set? Or is it # of stocks taken to number of stocks lost, etc etc. You might think I'm making that up, but once again, go ask multiple people, and you'll get multiple answers.

Also (and this has been one of my biggest arguments against using numbers to determine matchups for the longest time), can someone explain the difference between something like 70-30 and 75-25? Shouldn't the player that has the advantage just win everytime assuming they aren't completely ********? Does DK REALLY lose to Marth 5% of the time more than Luigi? I somehow doubt it, seems like they would both get ***** assuming the Marth knows what he is doing in the matchup (assuming equal skill)

My justification for this number system is as follows: It's SIMPLE, and I'm certain we as a community can reach a consensus on matchups that have been up in the air forever. Do we really need specifics? No, I don't think so. We know historically that Fox and Marth **** each other up, and the fact is the better player will win. Hence Fox/Marth?

As for 90-10, the label itself (as with all the labels I've chosen) is arbitrary in nature (tho I do enjoy the way it rolls of the tongue), but what it represents is truly what is important. It represents the idea, that we KNOW that Ice Climbers should lose to Peach almost ALL the time unless the Climbers player is way better than the Peach (or the Peach is ********, but that is imo, the same thing). Essentially, you are at a disadvantage, you should lose, and if you win, you're really good.

That simple.

I'm sure I'll get a lot of **** for this (especially for the names of the matchups, but once again they're just made up and can be changed to w'e). I'm arguing for simplicity. **** trying to find some random, arbitrary number assigned to some matchup that is rarely played that only a handful of people have ever played extensively.

Have fun boys.

 

[Beat!]

It's not a terrible idea.

 

[Grape Ape]

gonna have to agree. That isnt evem.including the fact that some people play match ups better than others too.

 

[Fregadero]

I'm going to throw around my theory on matchup ratios, which might be slightly controversial, but I think makes a lot of sense and resolves a ton of the bull**** that surrounds making a good matchup chart.

IMO, there are really only 2 (sorta 3) matchups in the game.

Evenish (with either a nod towards the character who has a slight edge in theory, or a ? in place of a matchup that is undetermined)

AND

90-10


Examples

Fox vs Jiggs: Evenish, slight nod to Fox
Marth vs. Falco: Evenish?
Peach vs Icies: 90-10

My rationale for this is simple. Matchups are way too controversial, and people on this site cannot agree with numbers for the life of them. You can ask 5 different people about Marth/Fox and get 5 different answers. A big issue is that we can't even reach an agreement on what the numbers represent. Do they mean % that someone will win a match assuming equal skill? Or a set? Or is it # of stocks taken to number of stocks lost, etc etc. You might think I'm making that up, but once again, go ask multiple people, and you'll get multiple answers.

Also (and this has been one of my biggest arguments against using numbers to determine matchups for the longest time), can someone explain the difference between something like 70-30 and 75-25? Shouldn't the player that has the advantage just win everytime assuming they aren't completely ********? Does DK REALLY lose to Marth 5% of the time more than Luigi? I somehow doubt it, seems like they would both get ***** assuming the Marth knows what he is doing in the matchup (assuming equal skill)

My justification for this number system is as follows: It's SIMPLE, and I'm certain we as a community can reach a consensus on matchups that have been up in the air forever. Do we really need specifics? No, I don't think so. We know historically that Fox and Marth **** each other up, and the fact is the better player will win. Hence Fox/Marth?

As for 90-10, the label itself (as with all the labels I've chosen) is arbitrary in nature (tho I do enjoy the way it rolls of the tongue), but what it represents is truly what is important. It represents the idea, that we KNOW that Ice Climbers should lose to Peach almost ALL the time unless the Climbers player is way better than the Peach (or the Peach is ********, but that is imo, the same thing). Essentially, you are at a disadvantage, you should lose, and if you win, you're really good.

That simple.

I'm sure I'll get a lot of **** for this (especially for the names of the matchups, but once again they're just made up and can be changed to w'e). I'm arguing for simplicity. **** trying to find some random, arbitrary number assigned to some matchup that is rarely played that only a handful of people have ever played extensively.

Have fun boys.

I don't really think that the current matchup number system works that well right now, but I really like how they help scale difficulty for the different matchups. I think the +3 +2 +1 0 -1 -2 -3 system works a lot better.

Matchup numbers are really speculative anyway (skill dependent, personal match up experience dependent, style dependent). I think we should focus more on newer strategies for Marth to keep up in the changing meta game and worry less about the actual numbers. If you need a match up number to tell you how you're going to do in a match up, you're probably not going to do that well.

 

[Niko45]

Life is a 90:10

 

[Divinokage]

95:5 on my side for sure. =P

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

seeing as you consider marth fox to be in fox's favor i dont think you have that much of an argument

EDIT: peach marth is definitely in marth's favor though. Marth community is definitely the most butthurt of the high tier characters

Lol what? Spacies both beat marth if they don't run at marth when hes camping the edge. Sheik has a better time poking and outspacing spacies than marth does and she probably has a better gimp game on them overall too.

Marth does beat peach very convincingly tho. His only problem is having a hard time landing the kill.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Marth does beat peach very convincingly tho. His only problem is having a hard time landing the kill.

lol thinking its 2007 or something. marth might have a small advantage but its really not that bad of MU for peach. the reason peach players have issues with the Mu is b/c as peach u have to switch around some of your habits which at first is awkward. but in truth its a pretty even MU which as a peach player i never mind facing (unless its on yoshi's were it is still stupid as ****, but i ban that ****).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If marth could edgeguard her or combo into a kill move ~100%, the match-up would be like 75-25.

 

[OverLord]

If marth could edgeguard her or combo into a kill move ~100%, the match-up would be like 75-25.

I definitely agree.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

but he cant, so thats a non factor. so yea worst 55-45

 

[.Chipmunk.]

but he cant, so thats a non factor. so yea worst 55-45

He actually can. Peach isn't all that much harder to edgeguard.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i disagree, unless the peach is being dumb and recovers so marth can spike her, she is not easy to edge guard for marth at all. The most he can often do is guess right when the peach is recovering high and give her some extra dmg before she finally gets to land. So i am going to have to disagree with your statement that she is not much harder to edgegaurd

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Marth can edgeguard peach in the sense that he can never actually let her get back to neutral and eventually kill her with fair/utilt/uair if she goes high or dtilt/fsmash if she for some reason decides to go low. If she grabs the edge shes kinda ****ed.


edit- I put the MU at 55-45 because theres a lot of places for marth to mess up and peach isn't terrible if shes neutral with marth. She also can edgeguard marth decently. Check out PP's marth vs Armada from Apex2012 to see how good marth is at the MU (also remember, armada beats the best fox players in the world in a 65-35 match-up)

 

[Archangel]

The probably with Marth vs peach and alot of non FF'ing characters is...kills. Not that he can't kill them but he has the 0-death or low/mid%-death set ups on fast falling characters that just turn into DI practice for other characters. If you don't perfect space tippers on characters like Peach, Samus...etc. Then you have a hard time getting rid of them. If only he had the kind of Doc dthrow. Then he could Throw tipper people... His Bthrow and his Dthrow are like...almost the same thing just one goes on a higher angle. Makes no sense but whatever....getting off topic. Fact is Marth vs Peach edgeguarding Marth is probably easier for Peach then the opposite.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Marth can edgeguard peach in the sense that he can never actually let her get back to neutral and eventually kill her with fair/utilt/uair if she goes high or dtilt/fsmash if she for some reason decides to go low. If she grabs the edge shes kinda ****ed.


edit- I put the MU at 55-45 because theres a lot of places for marth to mess up and peach isn't terrible if shes neutral with marth. She also can edgeguard marth decently. Check out PP's marth vs Armada from Apex2012 to see how good marth is at the MU (also remember, armada beats the best fox players in the world in a 65-35 match-up)

so u r using one friendly to judge the MU? how about armada vs m2k tourney matches? Besides u shouldn't just use friendlies i mean if u want to go with friendlies i beat ice peach vs marth in a friendly at apex, but i dont believe he was playing the Mu as if it was a tourney match but if u want to count that pp v armada match then why not count my win as well? I also have to figure pp is not so confident in the marth vs peach MU b/c he didnt try it in tourney against armada (of course the reason why he didnt use marth is pure speculation).

Anyway its ridicules to judge the MU ratio on one friendly match when there r serious tourney vids to look at.

 

[Archangel]

so u r using one friendly to judge the MU? how about armada vs m2k tourney matches? Besides u shouldn't just use friendlies i mean if u want to go with friendlies i beat ice peach vs marth in a friendly at apex, but i dont believe he was playing the Mu as if it was a tourney match but if u want to count that pp v armada match then why not count my win as well? I also have to figure pp is not so confident in the marth vs peach MU b/c he didnt try it in tourney against armada (of course the reason why he didnt use marth is pure speculation).

Anyway its ridicules to judge the MU ratio on one friendly match when there r serious tourney vids to look at.

I agree 100%

Marth vs Peach does not rest on the shoulders of Armada vs Dr.PP friendlies...Alot of people are putting their stock in Dr.PP But he's just one man. Truthfully Marth's whole existence is like an illusion. His status has always been decided by those who dominated and/or inspired. Ken to M2K the is where the crown passed. With the crown came all the answered. Now from M2K's head the crown seems to have gone. Vanished....and with it all of the answers to all of the questions. Now we are making false crowns. Passing them from person to person. How fast was it to jump on and off of the Ice train? How much faster would it be if PP went Marth in tournament and was beat out easily before even getting to Armada? Truth be told so many of Marths match-ups and advantages were based on Myths and illusions. With the changing world around us a good portion of Marth players still choose to hold onto unrealistic stances on Marth and his Match-ups.

Marth has gone from a dream world where everything goes his way to a rough and rugged reality. It's a sad world we Marth's live in today...really it is...but that can all change. I think it is possible to climb to the top of the mountain again but we must first be honest about the height of such a mountain. Too say that Marth vs Peach is something of an easy win, 60-40 MU in 2012 is ********. To say Peach vs Fox is 65-35 is also silly but it's closer to a realistic outlook then Marth's have. Basically what I am trying to say is...we Marth's as a community will never have a chance of overcoming our weaknesses and our struggles if we are unwilling to admit they even exist.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

i disagree, unless the peach is being dumb and recovers so marth can spike her, she is not easy to edge guard for marth at all. The most he can often do is guess right when the peach is recovering high and give her some extra dmg before she finally gets to land. So i am going to have to disagree with your statement that she is not much harder to edgegaurd

Marth doesn't have to guess. The scenario is that Peach is offstage and therefore has to come to Marth. The major problem is that Marth players get impatient and jump offstage to try to smack peach and she spaces her float or umbrella just out of reach and then slips right on by when Marth is in lag mode then suddenly has the upper hand. Sveet is right, Marth can just wait, then hit peach off again and again until she dies. We've been doing the same thing to Sheik for ages. Get Sheik off stage, grab the ledge, wait for the landing lag, repeat as necessary. (I know that -exact- thing doesn't work for peace, but the concept is the same. Wait, then punish)

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Marth doesn't have to guess. The scenario is that Peach is offstage and therefore has to come to Marth. The major problem is that Marth players get impatient and jump offstage to try to smack peach and she spaces her float or umbrella just out of reach and then slips right on by when Marth is in lag mode then suddenly has the upper hand. Sveet is right, Marth can just wait, then hit peach off again and again until she dies. We've been doing the same thing to Sheik for ages. Get Sheik off stage, grab the ledge, wait for the landing lag, repeat as necessary. (I know that -exact- thing doesn't work for peace, but the concept is the same. Wait, then punish)

you do know peach can recover high enough that she can get to any spot on the stage right? so holding the edge wont work. better yet peach is pretty much lagless when she recovers correctly, u did know that right? if u think its as easy as waiting then u r sadly mistaken and i have to question your marth v peach experience.

I agree 100%

Marth vs Peach does not rest on the shoulders of Armada vs Dr.PP friendlies...Alot of people are putting their stock in Dr.PP But he's just one man. Truthfully Marth's whole existence is like an illusion. His status has always been decided by those who dominated and/or inspired. Ken to M2K the is where the crown passed. With the crown came all the answered. Now from M2K's head the crown seems to have gone. Vanished....and with it all of the answers to all of the questions. Now we are making false crowns. Passing them from person to person. How fast was it to jump on and off of the Ice train? How much faster would it be if PP went Marth in tournament and was beat out easily before even getting to Armada? Truth be told so many of Marths match-ups and advantages were based on Myths and illusions. With the changing world around us a good portion of Marth players still choose to hold onto unrealistic stances on Marth and his Match-ups.

Marth has gone from a dream world where everything goes his way to a rough and rugged reality. It's a sad world we Marth's live in today...really it is...but that can all change. I think it is possible to climb to the top of the mountain again but we must first be honest about the height of such a mountain. Too say that Marth vs Peach is something of an easy win, 60-40 MU in 2012 is ********. To say Peach vs Fox is 65-35 is also silly but it's closer to a realistic outlook then Marth's have. Basically what I am trying to say is...we Marth's as a community will never have a chance of overcoming our weaknesses and our struggles if we are unwilling to admit they even exist.

this is written to be a little dramatic (not saying thats a bad thing) but i pretty much agree with it 100%. I believe that marth was considered great not just b/c of the top people using him (ken, m2k) but also b/c people were less able to take advantage of his weaknesses, but as people have become more precise and able to punish marth despite his range marth has become less affective in todays metagame.

Also just so u know, i believe fox v peach is 60-40.

 

[Archangel]

you do know peach can recover high enough that she can get to any spot on the stage right? so holding the edge wont work. better yet peach is pretty much lagless when she recovers correctly, u did know that right? if u think its as easy as waiting then u r sadly mistaken and i have to question your marth v peach experience.



this is written to be a little dramatic (not saying thats a bad thing) but i pretty much agree with it 100%. I believe that marth was considered great not just b/c of the top people using him (ken, m2k) but also b/c people were less able to take advantage of his weaknesses, but as people have become more precise and able to punish marth despite his range marth has become less affective in todays metagame.

Also just so u know, i believe fox v peach is 60-40.

Yeah I was in the middle of writing a poem and I guess some of the dramatic mood I was into leaked into my post.....ah well.

I think at worse fox vs Peach is 60-40. It's not 50-50 or 55-45. Considering stage picks in the new rules set Peach against a good technical and defensive fox is forced to counter pick herself to a small stage. I think she does ok on Battlefield because of the ******** edges but aside from that if you are near perfect with fox you should win. Too bad not alot of near perfect foxes. I think the reason why fox mains as a whole have been getting whooped is for YEARS they've got away with being technically inconsistent and just being wreckless do to the fact that Fox is a good character. Once that gets corrected I think you'll see fox take some nationals again. I do not think a Fox player can get to the point of making Peach vs Fox a 65-35 MU but 60-40 I could see being done.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

LMAO are you guys that ****ing ********? seriously? This is why I don't like talking with random scrubs on the boards. I give a ton of reasons and then at the end of everything mention a game to watch to see a good showing of the MU, next post is ignoring everything I said and attacking the video.

**** you guys. Go learn to analyse games and come back when you can tell the difference between **** around friendlies (falcon dittos on FD) and a battle with nothing but victory on the line between two people who enjoy competition (armada vs PP; PP vs M2K; M2K vs anyone). Quit posting until youre not dumb about the **** that you post.

 

[OverLord]

lol Nagace I actually question your experience against Marth if you really think that Peach has a good time recovering against him.

Marth can just stay there and keep punishing her 'til she dies, he just has to be patient, not that much of an attitude amongst Marths.

And just in case she's not that high while recovering, Marth has a lot of spacing tools to force her to go where he wants.

I really don't mind edgeguarding Peaches, at all. Even against Armada I didn't feel like I had any issues beside the MU's standards.

Peach's odd recovery shouldn't make Marth players think that she is in any way harder to edgeguard than any other character, it's just people has to start adapting and really exploit Marth's strenghts.



I guess the comparison between Marth's edgeguarding tool against spacies and the rest of the roster make players think he can have trouble. Actually not, it's just a matter of understanding what will work against a character and what not.

 

[Archangel]

LMAO are you guys that ****ing ********? seriously? This is why I don't like talking with random scrubs on the boards. I give a ton of reasons and then at the end of everything mention a game to watch to see a good showing of the MU, next post is ignoring everything I said and attacking the video.

**** you guys. Go learn to analyse games and come back when you can tell the difference between **** around friendlies (falcon dittos on FD) and a battle with nothing but victory on the line between two people who enjoy competition (armada vs PP; PP vs M2K; M2K vs anyone). Quit posting until youre not dumb about the **** that you post.

What a way to represent not only yourself as a person but the PMBR in general.

I study these to learn the MU personally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRzBCa6RdBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MEmyaC57w0

lol Nagace I actually question your experience against Marth if you really think that Peach has a good time recovering against him.

Marth can just stay there and keep punishing her 'til she dies, he just has to be patient, not that much of an attitude amongst Marths.

And just in case she's not that high while recovering, Marth has a lot of spacing tools to force her to go where he wants.

I really don't mind edgeguarding Peaches, at all. Even against Armada I didn't feel like I had any issues beside the MU's standards.

Peach's odd recovery shouldn't make Marth players think that she is in any way harder to edgeguard than any other character, it's just people has to start adapting and really exploit Marth's strenghts.


I guess the comparison between Marth's edgeguarding tool against spacies and the rest of the roster make players think he can have trouble. Actually not, it's just a matter of understanding what will work against a character and what not.

Patience alone isn't enough. you have to be very good at guessing/reacting as well. Even if you corner someone Marth doesn't really have any long lasting hit-boxes. It's not like you can stick a nair out like you can with Sheik for example. It isn't the most difficult thing in the world. But getting the edgeguard off of Peach is like cutting the right wire on an explosive device. Typical scenario is that Peach has 3 or4 options and Marth can only cover 2. Missing the chance could simply mean peach survives, it could mean peach survives and takes more damage from you before dying, it could mean peach survives and then you die. *shrugs*.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

spam_arrows, you've been posting on these boards for years and you havent improved. OMG videos from when i was a noob? im so ashamed!

rather admit i was once a ****** and wise up than stay a ****** and pretend i'm smart. You're still ****ing ********, spend some time off the boards and learn the play the game. In fact, play peach vs a marth and see how the match-up goes.

 

[Archangel]

spam_arrows, you've been posting on these boards for years and you havent improved. OMG videos from when i was a noob? im so ashamed!

rather admit i was once a ****** and wise up than stay a ****** and pretend i'm smart. You're still ****ing ********, spend some time off the boards and learn the play the game. In fact, play peach vs a marth and see how the match-up goes.

Spend some time off the boards and learn how to type. Seriously though do you really take the boards that serious? It sounds to me like you spend more time talking about MU's. That or your knowledge of the game is still in 05.

on another note. I play Peach vs Marth periodically. I play every character vs Marth to learn more. If we ever get out to the same event I'll rotate characters on you to see how smart you've got. I think it's safe to say you are mad though. So I'll give you some time to calm down.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Lol spam you are a ******. Do you even go to tournaments? But hey, were those old vids your only ammo? Must be since you had to dig deep and tell me my writing is bad...

Seriously, go back to **** riding good marth players and making their combo videos. You still ain't good enough to fly solo

 

[Aber]

Money Match?

 

[crush]

Aber is one of my favorite smashers irl.

 

[Tekk]

The marth boards are hilarious LMAO

 

[Fregadero]

Too many Maths sleepin on ftilt. Walk -> ftilt is def underused, esp vs floaties.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

lol thread redeemed

this **** is hilarious

 

[Archangel]

Lol spam you are a ******. Do you even go to tournaments? But hey, were those old vids your only ammo? Must be since you had to dig deep and tell me my writing is bad...

Seriously, go back to **** riding good marth players and making their combo videos. You still ain't good enough to fly solo

**** riding good Marths? You clearly have no idea what the legacy project's purpose is. As for you...the only reason you even stand out in the slightest is because it's in purple. Proof they'll let anyone into the MBR. If you don't think I can fly solo why not put some money up sometime in the future and try clipping my wings *****?

 

[Aber]

Too many Maths sleepin on ftilt. Walk -> ftilt is def underused, esp vs floaties.

Not sure where you get this idea.....I use f tilt ALOT

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

**** riding good Marths? You clearly have no idea what the legacy project's purpose is. As for you...the only reason you even stand out in the slightest is because it's in purple. Proof they'll let anyone into the MBR. If you don't think I can fly solo why not put some money up sometime in the future and try clipping my wings *****?

Haha do you even make it out of pools at locals? Buy me a ticket to DE and i'll **** you all you want and maybe you'll get better. Probably not, though.

 

[Fregadero]

Not sure where you get this idea.....I use f tilt ALOT

Posting around rage wars lol

A lot of marths I see dont use it enough. Including mine.

 

[Wake]

Well I agree that Marth/Peach is not THAT bad of a MU. I think that Fox is harder for Peach than Marth is, and sometimes I think Sheik too.

However, I always say that Marth "stage guards" well Peach because even though she can technically get passed the edge if she recovers high, Marth is so good at preventing her from actually making it back onto the ground if she recovers high. Watch the beginning of the first game of M2K vs Armada at Apex. The entire first stock is pretty much just Armada trying to get back onto the ground.

 

[leffen]

spam arrows is awful at doing movies, no matter what the aim of them are

they're a embarrassment to the smash community imho

the sad part is that people think that his vids are good
talk about having low standards

hes a pretty awful marth too

and his matchup and theorycrafting is hilariously ********


inb4 infraction

crush is awesome

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

LMAO are you guys that ****ing ********? seriously? This is why I don't like talking with random scrubs on the boards. I give a ton of reasons and then at the end of everything mention a game to watch to see a good showing of the MU, next post is ignoring everything I said and attacking the video.

**** you guys. Go learn to analyse games and come back when you can tell the difference between **** around friendlies (falcon dittos on FD) and a battle with nothing but victory on the line between two people who enjoy competition (armada vs PP; PP vs M2K; M2K vs anyone). Quit posting until youre not dumb about the **** that you post.

lol ok u called me ******** i lost this argument good show. its funny u call me a random scrub when in fact i did beat ice but i guess thats kinda scrubby in your eyes. And did u watch the pp armada match? more then once armada could of just grabbed edge to edge guard but didnt, this ended up costing him greatly. even in friendlies were u try to win one might try out things they normally wouldn't do just b/c its a friendly. You ever think about asking the the players in this match about it? Plus this might shock u but there have been cases were the player who would normally win loses anyway, and thats why people dont use one match to judge whole MU's (but clearly u have your own way of judging MU's)

maybe i shouldnt talk to u anymore b/c clearly u r very immature person seeing how this is your response to what was a peaceful conversation, but i guess i am a glutton for this kind of thing. Also r u sure this is why u dont talk to random scrubs? it might just be random scrubs see u post then try to avoid talking to u.

Lastly you should realize that just b/c u have a 2005 join date or a purple name does not mean u r better then me at this game or that u know more. but clearly u cant handle people disagreeing with u. and good job dodging my point about using tourney matches over friendlies

@overloard: i never said peach has a "good time" recovering against him, i said he has a harder time guarding her then he does other characters. which is true since he needs to read and predict harder with her and keep her in the air since she will often be able to place herself over the middle of the stage. Then if we add stages with platforms it gives her more options (granted u dont often want to be on the lower platforms on most stages against marth). Anyway i am not saying i have never had trouble getting down vs a marth just that there r enough options to make it tough on marth to predict were the peach is going