Marth's Match-Up Chart thread

[Archangel]

I think what he means is that you can't say "Peach vs Marth is 55-45 if she doesn't pull stitches and bombs and 50-50 if she does". You have to factor in the fact that Peach CAN pull those when calculating the matchup number.

ah ok. good point then.

i'll just say the mu is 52.5:48.5

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

marth wins the match-up 55:45 regardless of lucky pulls. Bomb/stitch/sword really don't bother marth. If she pulls before edgeguarding, a hit with a normal turnip or a bomb ends in the same thing. In neutral position, they don't really have a strong chance of hitting.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, I think it's at least 55:45 regardless.

 

[Archangel]

I've rarely lose to a peach that doesn't pull some **** like that. Doh got 3 stichfaces in 1 game for example....-_- wtf is that ****!

anyways I do think peach vs Marth is overall even but with stages the way they are now if you strikeout/ban you should win.

What do you think of Bo3 55-45 & Bo5 50-50(because no bans?)

 

[Beat!]

Idk, I think Marth wins on all stages in the current ruleset, except for possibly Dream Land.

 

[Archangel]

I think Marth's lack of ability to kill at high %'s at times comes back to bite him on DL64. Best of 5 means you will play on DL at least once. I think Peach on DreamLand is just gay for peach.

YS = edge Marth
FD = edge Marth
FoD = Even
PS = edge Marth
DL64 = edge Peach
BF = Even

hmm....after looking at this It does seem to favor Marth about 55-45. So you really do have to be lucky or play the turnip pull game to get a real edge on Marth.

 

[MaxThunder]

I think what he means is that you can't say "Peach vs Marth is 55-45 if she doesn't pull stitches and bombs and 50-50 if she does". You have to factor in the fact that Peach CAN pull those when calculating the matchup number.

yeah that's exactly what i meant... thanks=)... me not good talking...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Peach doesn't have the advantage on marth on any stage, even dream land.

 

[Archangel]

Peach doesn't have the advantage on marth on any stage, even dream land.

I'm accused of making "militant" statements as if they can't be wrong....now that I'm trying to stop it seems like everyone else is starting.

would you mind telling letting me know why Peach doesn't have an advantage on DL64? Assuming of course the players are at a top level.


on a completely unrelated note. I'm putting the finishing touches on Legacy 3 Europe.......DAMN!!!! Mother ****ers are beasts!

those of you from Europe this Saturday I should be done with the Video..not sure if it'll be Sunday already over there yet though.

 

[stelzig]

I think it's silly to say you need luck to get an edge on marth. Something extreme like only getting bombs in a match will obviously make a difference, but in general it just seems silly to think that way. Seems mostly like a pre-john to me "well my opponent got a stitch, so I was playing a bad matchup here"

It is particularely silly when we're talking about a 55-45 (aka almost even) matchup that might as well go either way around that 50-50 mark as it is, we can't really determine this perfectly. And it's not important to either, since the matchup is never just character vs. character and no one play matchups 100% identically.

Edit: I also just agree with beat and maxthunder in general. You shouldn't make matchups vs. good luck/bad luck turnip pulling peach, but just a matchup vs. peach who will pull bombs 0.26% of the time and stitches 1.711% of the time.

 

[Archangel]

I think it's silly to say you need luck to get an edge on marth. Something extreme like only getting bombs in a match will obviously make a difference, but in general it just seems silly to think that way. Seems mostly like a pre-john to me "well my opponent got a stitch, so I was playing a bad matchup here"

It is particularely silly when we're talking about a 55-45 (aka almost even) matchup that might as well go either way around that 50-50 mark as it is, we can't really determine this perfectly. And it's not important to either, since the matchup is never just character vs. character and no one play matchups 100% identically.

Edit: I also just agree with beat and maxthunder in general. You shouldn't make matchups vs. good luck/bad luck turnip pulling peach, but just a matchup vs. peach who will pull bombs 0.26% of the time and stitches 1.711% of the time.

ok then

Marth vs Peach = 53.029 : 46.971

 

[stelzig]

I think it's 53.027 : 46.973 because peach can also pull no-brainers (Or dot-eyes... I think its only a few danish players who call it the no-brainer, lol)

 

[Citizen Snips]

Everyone knows all of Marth's matchups are 90:10 in the opponent's favor. He has 0 options. Also he can't do anything out of powershield, and his tiara makes him look like a girl.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

ok then

Marth vs Peach = 53.029 : 46.971

I think it's 53.027 : 46.971...

Mommy, make the bad math man go away.

 

[Aber]

the marth boards are just absurd

 

[Archangel]

I think it's 53.027 : 46.971 because peach can also pull no-brainers (Or dot-eyes... I think its only a few danish players who call it the no-brainer, lol)

if you count dot-eyes and beam swords it's closer then depending on the % chance to pull each...(I have no idea what that is)

 

[stelzig]

Damn, my copy pasta failed.

 

[Archangel]

Damn, my copy pasta failed.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Damn, my copy pasta failed.

At least you went back and edited the first post. HAHA

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I think it's 53.027 : 46.973 because peach can also pull no-brainers (Or dot-eyes... I think its only a few danish players who call it the no-brainer, lol)

i call them ditto turnips. Also u guys just dont know the peach science its a clear 80-20 for peach (honest opinion ether 55-45 marth or 50-50)

 

[Archangel]

I think everyone pretty much agrees it's either 55-45 or 50-50 depending on __________.

lets move on and argue more about Falcon


70-30 Marth

 

[crush]

I call them Lilo turnips because they're almost as powerful as the Stitch.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Marth vs Peach is not close to even, its one of peach's ****tiest match-ups. It disgusts me to this that marth players would even think of considering it an even match-up.

 

[OverLord]

Peach loses to Marth.
I don't really care 'bout percentages, Marth just wins.

That's all that matters.

 

[Divinokage]

Marth vs Peach is not close to even, its one of peach's ****tiest match-ups. It disgusts me to this that marth players would even think of considering it an even match-up.

You'd be surprised.

 

[t-iceman]

Marth vs Peach is not close to even, its one of peach's ****tiest match-ups. It disgusts me to this that marth players would even think of considering it an even match-up.

seeing as you consider marth fox to be in fox's favor i dont think you have that much of an argument

EDIT: peach marth is definitely in marth's favor though. Marth community is definitely the most butthurt of the high tier characters

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Fox: 5-5
Falco: 55-45
Jiggs: 55-45
Sheik: 4-6
Peach: 55-45
ICs: 5-5
Falcon: 5-5
Doc: 55-45
Pikachu: 5-5
Samus: 6-4
Ganon: 55-45
Mario: 6-4
Luigi: 6-4
DK: 65-35
Link: 55-45
Y.Link: 65-35
Yoshi: no idea
Mewtwo: 7-3
Zelda: 7-3
Roy: 7-3
G&W: 75-25
Ness: 75-25
Bowser: 9-1
Kirby: 7-3
Pichu: 8-2

is my current chart I think. Marths prigud.

 

[Jonas]

I sometimes wonder if Marth is Bowser's worst match-up, though Sheik might be worse. He can't outrange him and he can't really create a situation where Marth opens himself. Marth can just jump back and Fair at everything he does and be completely safe. 9-1 definitely sounds about right.

 

[Divinokage]

Really? It's THAT horrible?? lol.

 

[huMps]

Link is Bowser's worst match up. It's ****ing hilarious!

 

[Strong Badam]

DK 75:25

LOL this guy with the jokes

 

[crush]

LOL this guy with the jokes

i dont think he was joking, DK sucks

 

[Strong Badam]

Marth-DK is 6-4.

 

[Archangel]

I think it's 60-40 or 65-35 depending on stages.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Marth-DK is 6-4.

65-35 makes it seem at lot less winnable for DK than it actually is, I agree. But I have a hard time condensing my list any further; I can't put Marth/DK at 6-4 when I have Marth v. Luigi and Samus at that ratio, and I think those are definitely harder matchups for Marth than DK.

 

[Fregadero]

65-35 makes it seem at lot less winnable for DK than it actually is, I agree. But I have a hard time condensing my list any further; I can't put Marth/DK at 6-4 when I have Marth v. Luigi and Samus at that ratio, and I think those are definitely harder matchups for Marth than DK.

Thats why you gotta use those spam arrows ratios man

 

[Construct]

What's the point in assigning arbitrary numbers to matchups? The one thing most Marth players agree on is that Sheik is Marth's worst matchup (I'd go so far as to say the only downright negative matchup), so wouldn't it make sense to steer the discussion towards tips and tricks against Sheik for the time being?

alsobecauseisuckagainstsheik. like really suck.

 

[Aber]

These numbers are dumb and most seem baseless.....Players win not characters. That being said, I think marth has all the tools to neutralize what falcon can do so its at least an even matchup if not in the advantage of marth

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

There are already like 4 pages in this thread where we talk about what the numbers signify. You can read those.

or if you'd rather not: the smash community, in general, doesn't assign ratios in non-relativistic ways a la the FGC. We look at the matchups we consider 5-5, and then build our lists out from there, based on which matchups we perceive are "better" or "worse" than others similarly ranked. So if we think Marth-Fox is 5-5, and that Marth-Samus is 6-4, we'd peg a matchup as 55-45 if it is between those two in difficulty for Marth...like, lets say Marth-Peach for instance. If we consider another matchup to be INBETWEEN Marth-Peach and Marth-Samus in difficulty, we'll just bump Marth-Samus to 65-35 and make that matchup the new 6-4. This is very different than the FGC, which assigns numbers less comparitively; they won't call a matchup 7-3 if its not THAT bad, even if its worse than a matchup they pegged 6-4...they'll just call it 6-4 as well to reflect that its "close but in one character's favor." The smash community's methodology is great at being detailed (it is more specific in determining which matchups are harder than others) while the FGC's methodology is better at truly giving a gauge on how easy/hard a matchup is without knowledge of where the rest of the matchups stack up. The end result is that smash numbers tend to be spread out, while FGC numbers are more condensed. So a 7-3 matchup in Melee would often be called a 6-4 in Street Fighter.

 

[Jonas]

If that's true then our game is more balanced than I thought.