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Marth's Match-Up Chart thread

Archangel

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I don't really know what to do against a samus except make them scared off stage, get them above you, and try not to get CC'd.

Does the trick for me?
Well the trick is being aggressive while being defensive and alert. Samus can't solidly beat Marth straight up so she has to scratch and claw her way into the fight. The more space and time samus has the worse the fight gets for you.

For me the key is only doing what is necessary. You can fair away all of her missiles but don't stand there and double fair at the air because good samus players will off time there shots to hit you or force you to shield so they can apply pressure or grab you. Do not play the missile spam game no matter what. it's ALWAYS a trap. Even if it looks like mindless spam the idea is to get you distracted showing off how cool you can be by chopping at the missiles. Then you get cheap shotted for days and slowly damaged/killed. What you want to do is quickly shut down any defensive positioning immediately.

Once you get past the defensive barrier set up by projectiles you gotta deal with the obvious reactions. Don't look for a roll..it almost NEVER happens. Good Spamus players will instead do 1 of the the following. Dependent on the type:

1. Wavedash backwards and counter attack with a Fsmash, Ftilt, or Dsmash.

2. Spot dodge and then jab, dsmash or UpB(hugs'in it)

3. shield then grab, UpB, sometimes jump and bomb use downB setups or Wavedash OOS and tilt at you.


almost all samus players I've seen/played have a preferred option based on styles and what characters/players they are use to playing. If you can pick up on that during/prior to the match it makes it alot easier to know what to do.

Against type 1; you want to do range safe moves(Dtilts, Jabs & a grab even if timed right, Also if go for a dash attack under a missile if you are close enough to get them in the air then juggle with up airs..etc) or simply wait outside their range and wait to let them hit them counter attack the open air and then punish as you see fit.

Against type 2; IMO the easiest to deal with. Just wait for the dodge and then grab or go for a delayed fast fall fair/Uair. You could also go for a Nair-Fsmash depending on the percents. If somehow you get caught with the UpB you can SDI and you can tech in place and then punish samus for going for it. if you get Dsmashed save you jump and try to recover as best you can.(using your jump is what alot of samus players will be hoping for because then they can just go for a heat seek missile to set you up for an easy edgeguard or trade attacks with your UpB...etc...overall failure to save your jump can sometimes mean death on some bull****....trust me. If you get hit with a jab or 2 don't shield. IT'S A TRAP!!!! most of the time. Instead just jab the ***** back then grab her or try and perfect shield then arial oos or if you want to play the baiting game shield purposely to get Samus to go for a grab and leave themselves open.

Type 3; I hate the most because you can't be sure if they are gonna hugs it or if they are gonna go technical on you and stuff. It's kinda of like a mind game you do to yourself when you think...is this person just a scrubby shielder or do they have a trick up their sleeve. The best choice is not to think about it and don't find out. JC grab or Dash behind them and grab usually works out fine if not better. Dashing behind a shielding Samus takes away several options for her options. She can still go for a few things so be swift and if you miss with a grab from behind it's actually very safe to shield seeing as how she would have to Wavedash oos in order to face you again for a grab.


The final part of fighting samus is excepting that you won't get cool Ken combo's off of her...they just won't work. Simple, non-fancy but effective edge guarding is key. If Samus uses UpB try to go for dtilts until u can set up a major killing blow or a chance to WD-grab ledge safely. Sometimes UpB randomly hits you when your going for the ledge so be careful. If the Samus players is good at using tether to recover then you'll have to try and time aerials using your invincible frames or you can edgeguard them from the stage with Fsmashes and such depending on the situation. If your fighting a good samus that is good at sweet spotting then your gonna have to take the risk of timing an invincible aerials to get the job done..


well this is all I got to offer on the MU.
 

0Room

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Down b setups are kinda sketchy
Though most samus players that do those, IHSB for example, has kind of a standard 1bomb->dair, I'm pretty sure that you can double bomb if you feel it's necessary

not entirely sure though
 

Archangel

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Down b setups are kinda sketchy
Though most samus players that do those, IHSB for example, has kind of a standard 1bomb->dair, I'm pretty sure that you can double bomb if you feel it's necessary

not entirely sure though
You can most of the time. Your right though it's not something every samus does but I've seen IHSB, Darrel, DJN's samus do it for example.
 

0Room

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Yeah.
What do you think is Marth's reactions to this?

Could you potentially mess up that downb setup, or do you just have to stop and wait?
 

Archangel

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Yeah.
What do you think is Marth's reactions to this?

Could you potentially mess up that downb setup, or do you just have to stop and wait?
The bombs can be messed up if you stop them before they get going.You kind of have to feel the attack out though. Use the force Luke!!!

Seriously though when it comes to bombing with samus you have to just have to be careful about jumping. usually that is what causes you to be hit by the next bomb. Most samus players will double bomb, bomb-2nd jump fast fall Dair, or bomb-nair you. Depending on % and positioning it may/may not be worth it to go after them.. I usually avoid the bomb and Nair them or I shield the bomb and go Uair oos hoping to catch them in a temporary juggle or if i'm lucky hit them before their second jump comes out.
 

Sage Osaka

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With each passing day I become more convinced that Falcon and Falco have a 55-45 edge on Marth.
I've played m2k's falcon with Marth for like an hour straight once, and that experienced REALLY opened my eyes to see how people can think it's in falcons favor. M2k is the only falcon I've ever played(I've played most of the big name falcons) that knows how to exploit the **** out of Marth. On fd, If you get grabbed, you die, almost as simple as that; regardless of di.

On other stages it wasn't quite as bad, but still glaringly difficult to escape once you get grabbed or started a combo upon.

Idk why none of the real falcon mains can't do this, maybe it's just the "it's m2k" excuse. But whatevs, my 2 cents.

:phone:
 

TheCrimsonBlur

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Have you not seen Hax play a Marth? That **** can get ugly...
Seriously. If you think M2K is hard, play Hax and have the fear of Falcon engraved onto your soul. Kid is vicious.

And yeah, I've grown to accept the conclusion that Falcon beats Marth. Its 55-45 at the least, and 60-40 at worst. I am still very confident that Marth beats Falco though, but I think there needs to be some tournament evidence to back up my claim.
 

Sage Osaka

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Have you not seen Hax play a Marth? That **** can get ugly...
Hax is included in the "major falcon mains" category that I said ive played before. M2k just plays the matchup better. In no means am I saying hax is bad at it, he just doesn't abuse marth as badly as m2k does.

My theory is that since m2k plays marth, he kind of knows his inner workings so well that he can just walk all over him.

:phone:
 

Sage Osaka

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Nah I disagree. Hax is much better at it. Like, much better.
well, that's your opinion and i respect it.

i was just going off personal experience; m2k consistently 3 stocked me at the matchup, while hax usually 1 stocked me (sometimes 2 stock, sometimes me taking the match.)
 

TheCrimsonBlur

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well, that's your opinion and i respect it.

i was just going off personal experience; m2k consistently 3 stocked me at the matchup, while hax usually 1 stocked me (sometimes 2 stock, sometimes me taking the match.)
I think you need to take friendly results a lot less seriously.

Hax is bonkers. Crazy, ridiculous good.
 

Sage Osaka

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are you guys not reading my post? i clearly stated that i think that hax is still extremely good at the matchup. and yeah while hax might not play as seriously during friendlies, m2k does not sandbag, at least not nearly as much as other good players, so that could have also skewn the results.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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Sleep with the falcon player's mother and disown him causing him serious emotional trama eventually leading to him to commit suicide.
 

knightpraetor

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i decided i will post my matchup thoughts

marth vs fox
60-40 marth

marth vs falco
50-50

marth vs sheik
45-55 (but the bigger problem is that sheik doesn't get punished for doing stupid stuff nearly as hard, so even worse players than you can play the matchup decently as sheik

if a matchup is nearly even, but there is little difference between playing overtriforce and playing a random sheik scrub (that's what i experienced), then that makes it way too easy to get knocked out

marth vs jiggs
55-45 marth

marth vs falcon
40-60 falcon (because stage picks favor him)
50-50 in best of 3

marth vs ganon 60-40 marth

marth vs peach 40-60 peach 5% because she can punish your jump as well as sheik..and another 5 because at the highest level she will pull enough turnips to get a stitch
 

t-iceman

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Im only going to talk about marth falcon because that seems to be a very prevalent discussion on this thread. I really do believe the mu is 50-50 and anyone that thinks otherwise probably doesnt understand the mu as well as they should. Falcon has only 2 legitimate approach options without putting himself at serious risk, those are wait for you to do an aerial and then grab or nair. Falcon definitely gets a lot more out of grabs then marth (emphasis on a lot) but if you understand what falcon wants to do and do a great job of zoning him you will do fine. For a while i had problems with this mu until i realized that the most important thing is controlling the center of the stage (more so than a lot of other mu's). Falcon thrives on his mobility and using it to trick others into doing unsafe approaches. If you control the middle you essentially cut the stage in half for falcon and falcon will either play by the ledge which is not where he wants to be at all or he will approach you in which case you punish accordingly. I also am not sure why people dislike FD for this matchup as it is one of my favorite stages other than yoshi's vs falcon.
 

Archangel

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Im only going to talk about marth falcon because that seems to be a very prevalent discussion on this thread. I really do believe the mu is 50-50 and anyone that thinks otherwise probably doesnt understand the mu as well as they should. Falcon has only 2 legitimate approach options without putting himself at serious risk, those are wait for you to do an aerial and then grab or nair. Falcon definitely gets a lot more out of grabs then marth (emphasis on a lot) but if you understand what falcon wants to do and do a great job of zoning him you will do fine. For a while i had problems with this mu until i realized that the most important thing is controlling the center of the stage (more so than a lot of other mu's). Falcon thrives on his mobility and using it to trick others into doing unsafe approaches. If you control the middle you essentially cut the stage in half for falcon and falcon will either play by the ledge which is not where he wants to be at all or he will approach you in which case you punish accordingly. I also am not sure why people dislike FD for this matchup as it is one of my favorite stages other than yoshi's vs falcon.

FD is a good stage for both and a bad stage for both so I don't consider it a CP for either. It's pretty even imo.

and I came to the same conclusion about this MU but oddly enough it wasn't until I started playing as Roy that it finally hit me. Applying the same amount of patience and control of the middle as I do with Roy when Using marth makes the MU WAAAAAY easier. I still think it is 51-49 Marth though.
 

knightpraetor

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Im only going to talk about marth falcon because that seems to be a very prevalent discussion on this thread. I really do believe the mu is 50-50 and anyone that thinks otherwise probably doesnt understand the mu as well as they should. Falcon has only 2 legitimate approach options without putting himself at serious risk, those are wait for you to do an aerial and then grab or nair. Falcon definitely gets a lot more out of grabs then marth (emphasis on a lot) but if you understand what falcon wants to do and do a great job of zoning him you will do fine. For a while i had problems with this mu until i realized that the most important thing is controlling the center of the stage (more so than a lot of other mu's). Falcon thrives on his mobility and using it to trick others into doing unsafe approaches. If you control the middle you essentially cut the stage in half for falcon and falcon will either play by the ledge which is not where he wants to be at all or he will approach you in which case you punish accordingly. I also am not sure why people dislike FD for this matchup as it is one of my favorite stages other than yoshi's vs falcon.

you're way oversimplifying the matchup. if both players stay on the ground and just grab falcon wins, so the marth uses ground moves, because he can CC nair and use dtilt to stuff grab attempts from falcon, but those can be hit by aerials, but marth's aerials beat falcon's aerials, but falcon can dash dance camp marth's aerials

acting as if falcon has only one spot to punish against marth is disingenuous..it's a rock paper scissors game..moreso than other matchups
 

t-iceman

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you're way oversimplifying the matchup. if both players stay on the ground and just grab falcon wins, so the marth uses ground moves, because he can CC nair and use dtilt to stuff grab attempts from falcon, but those can be hit by aerials, but marth's aerials beat falcon's aerials, but falcon can dash dance camp marth's aerials

acting as if falcon has only one spot to punish against marth is disingenuous..it's a rock paper scissors game..moreso than other matchups
Im aware that i simplified it, i made a much larger post in a previous mu thread that i really didnt want to repeat. Im pretty sure most people know the info in your post as it is true for a lot of other mu's lol but i still believe that the most important thing is denying falcon stage control because his approaches really are not that good he just thrives on trickery and ****.
 

Beat!

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IMO:
vs Fox 50-50 (could be anything between 55-45 and 45-55. Haven't decided completely)
vs Falco 55-45
vs Sheik 45-55
vs Puff 55-45
vs Peach 60-40/55-45
vs Falcon 55-45
vs Ganon 60-40
vs Marth 100-0
 
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