Marth's Match-Up Chart thread

[Niko45]

You aren't; you are using Nairs, Fairs, and dtilts, at least. By acting to your opponent and keeping pressure via spacing rather than trying to intrude on falcons "area," so to speak. If you really wanted to play that game, you can go all day and eventually win out.


Again, druggy assumes that you know Falcon and how far he can move and approach or whatever. You space your missed fair in a fashion so if your opponent tries to approach, you are on top with an automatic response.

Well like fair/nair from a distance into DD is a classic Marth bait against Falcon. There really isn't a way that you can do this TRULY safely while still putting any type of pressure on Falcon. It's a bait, not pressure.

Both are guaranteed. Personally, I can tech chase a falcon quite easily on FD all day long, and have done so in a tournament scenario.

Spoiler

..and still lost due to excessive suicides T-T

Falcon has a guaranteed punishments for Marth? I would love for you to elaborate on that, because I don't see the majority of them except in cases where Marth isn't the only one to suffer from it(up throw on a platform -> timed dair).

How is it guaranteed? If CF chooses to miss a tech at any point, he suddenly goes from 0 options to a few options, which Marth will then have to react to. If your argument is "you can get really good at reacting to what CF does from this position" then cool. I really don't think DDing while CF lays on the ground is guaranteed. Personally I just try to tech chase CF until he's cornered and then force him offstage. Getting him offstage is also not GUARANTEED. To say that Marth tech chasing is a 0-death is really really stretching the definition imo. Can you guys show me a video of Marth tech chasing CF for a long time? Doesn't seem like it would be worth it since eventually you're bound to get him into a position to knock offstage, which I'd think would be better than to just continue to damage build at that point.

As far as CF's punishes, it'd help if I knew the exact %'s but I mean how do you not see that CF has huge windows where he can inescapably combo Marth, often stretching into KO %. I mean dair knee must have a decent window where it KOs outright. Up air has a huge huge window where it combos into more up airs and potentially knees for KOs. Uthrow Knee has like a 20% KOing window, and dthrow Knee has maybe even a larger window if Marth gets to higher %. Freakin bair - knee has a KOing window for god's sake. There is no DI that can help you a lot of the time. If you even get an option, the difference between DIing away or in is the difference between getting up air'd again or knee'd. Of course you take the up air there but you're still being combo'd into an easy edgeguard even if avoiding the outright KO.

The point Druggy's trying to make is how Marth can literally sit there using those three moves properly spaced and never get punished while moving closer, while falcon has to dedicate himself to move closer. hence, in a case where both players are even marth generally wins.

There's no distance where these moves are totally safe and yet still pressuring CF's space. There is no range on dtilt where you can hit CF and he can't dair you for it. I mean, not even close. CF has long been considered a difficult matchup for Marth for this exact reason. You can't just space moves and beat him because he has the tools to punish that and his punish is very good. Now, if you can corner CF than obviously this changes but it seems like you would argue that manipulating neutral space is not an advanced part of the game and if Marth corners CF its just Marth being Marth but if CF manages to escape or outmaneuver Marth he must be so much smarter and better than the Marth. :/ Cause lets face it, if we're gonna say tech chasing is "guaranteed" then cornering might as well be too. It happens sometimes therefore its guaranteed?

 

[Archangel]

Epic Kirbykaze paraphrase.

All marth has to do is tech chase...wait, all marths suck, never mind.

<3

I'm gonna miss the good old days in this thread soon. I sense a golden age of mile long posts on the horizon.

 

[Druggedfox]

Oh actually that's a good point.

@Niko

I was watching ss118 in tourney... he was literally doing it without messing up as long as he felt like it.

The reason I prefer juggling is that it's EASIER not to mess up, AND it sets up into kills more often. I still abuse tech chasing ridiculously, I just also like being able to set up into kill.

Tech chasing IS guaranteed, without question. The only time you will not tech chase falcon is at ridiculously high percent, or if the MARTH messes up.

"Cause lets face it, if we're gonna say tech chasing is "guaranteed" then cornering might as well be too. It happens sometimes therefore its guaranteed?"

That's the thing, tech chasing isn't "guaranteed"... it actually is guaranteed. It's honestly better than sheik's tech chase on falcon in terms of regrabs becuase of marth's superior grab range. Sheik has to rely on jab resets/dash attack/upsmash to do it easily, but it's still guaranteed until falcon SDI's a jab. Marth's is the same, except marth has a better dash and grab range...

People are skeptical, I realize this... but when I moved to ATL and actually took part in the community, everyone didn't believe me at first. I told them that falcon's tech chase on spacies was guaranteed, and marth's tech chase on falcon was guaranteed; on both accounts they didn't believe me until I showed them it... now they all know it's legit. I mean, you don't have to believe me, I can show you at RoM3 =P

Also, just because it hasn't been done by many people doesn't mean it is not possible. I was testing fox's downthrow on jigglypuff the other day. This one is also guaranteed, but is pretty much impossible without either: a LOT of practice, or reaction time that's better than mine (I have no idea if mine is good or not). For example, I've NEVER seen fox players actually try to abuse this more than once, while when I tried it, it definitely worked. It also consistently leads to upsmash, if done correctly. This tech chase, on the other hand, takes incredible reaction time/familiarity with all the different scenarios and I can understand if people don't want to abuse it; this is just an example of something no one has really recorded, that is definitely guaranteed.

Once again, the idea of all these posts isn't that falcon doesn't have options to beat marth, it's that falcon is forced to outplay the marth to get these in on him. The falcon is forced to do things like predict a marth dtilt, then dair over it. Or perhaps he has to predict exactly which direction marth is going to dash in (what if he just uptilts?). That's the thing: sure it's a guessing game, but the guessing game puts marth in an advantageous position consistently... that's why the matchup is in his favor.

 

[Druggedfox]

Epic Kirbykaze paraphrase.

All marth has to do is tech chase...wait, all marths suck, never mind.

<3

I must agree.

 

[Niko45]

Once again, the idea of all these posts isn't that falcon doesn't have options to beat marth, it's that falcon is forced to outplay the marth to get these in on him. The falcon is forced to do things like predict a marth dtilt, then dair over it. Or perhaps he has to predict exactly which direction marth is going to dash in (what if he just uptilts?). That's the thing: sure it's a guessing game, but the guessing game puts marth in an advantageous position consistently... that's why the matchup is in his favor.

Fair enough analysis, I don't disagree that Marth is better from neutral position but I do think CF's punish compensates. Shouldn't degree of difficulty come into play? I'll have to explore these tech chases because I, too, prefer to up throw as soon as it becomes viable and only tech chase at lower % where I guess fthrow doesn't need a tech.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Epic Kirbykaze paraphrase.

All marth has to do is tech chase...wait, all marths suck, never mind.

<3

My opinion of that was largely the result of a few AIM discussions with Cactuar since he's the best vs Falcon.

He said he felt it was even, had some relevant anecdotes and explained a bit of the strategy, and said that both characters can make the other one's head explode if given a grab. He said he managed to reaction tech chase Darkrain at FC6 to 80% or so and kill him with a tipped F-smash more than a few times during their pools set, or at least I think it was pools.

Of course, later on he would eventually enter his matchup thread and say that the tech chase is mostly a stage control tool so my perception of it has been somewhat altered. Nonetheless, I certainly think it's possible for either character to death **** combo the other in a hit.

Falcon can easily reaction tech chase Marth if Marth DIs away from his throw. Regrabs until about 30 and then he can switch to U-throw Uair or other nonsense. I think he can chain grab the DI away from D-throw but I'm not 100%, the Falcons keep telling me he can't but a few of them keep telling me he can. Regardless of whether he can or can't, tech chase is a pretty easy substitute to grind to the percent where things straight up combo.

 

[Niko45]

Personally, for what it's worth, I think Hax and SS are much better than Darkrain vs Marth. Seems like when I watch Darkrain play Marth, he's constantly getting wrecked by gimmicky Marth stuff that really has no business working in 2010..at least not consistently.

Regardless of whether tech chasing with Marth infinitely is viable I can't see it being more efficient for taking stocks then just forcing CF offstage or into a bad position.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Up to the very beginning of 2009 I wouldn't agree with you. But it's 2010 so I'll go with it.

 

[Archangel]

Personally, for what it's worth, I think Hax and SS are much better than Darkrain vs Marth. Seems like when I watch Darkrain play Marth, he's constantly getting wrecked by gimmicky Marth stuff that really has no business working in 2010..at least not consistently.

Regardless of whether tech chasing with Marth infinitely is viable I can't see it being more efficient for taking stocks then just forcing CF offstage or into a bad position.

I hear Hax is the best vs Marth. I know that I.B. Is the only Marth I've ever seen beat him in a set before. SS also has a good track record against Marths he's only lost to Ken, Falcomist and....I think PewPewU might have beat him once but idk.

Scar is probably right behind those 2 vs Marth he's got better vs good marths in recent years it seems.

Darkrain of the fatal 4 is probably the weakest in the MU but is still not easy to beat. His sets with Arc are much better then any of his sets vs Marth at Pound4. So he's still improving.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I know people have only seen M2K viciously **** Darkrain at FC-D but what you didn't see was that Darkrain was apparently salty about it. So he challenged M2K to a bo3 in that matchup and won.

Granted, I don't remember the circumstances (I can't see Darkrain being like "yo that wasn't legit let's MM $20 put 'em up") so it may be meaningless but for a long time Darkrain was the business. In every matchup.

 

[Wenbobular]

The Hax vs IB set was sooo bad aaah

 

[Winston]

how do you prevent people from escaping by sliding off the edge when you are fthrow techchasing?

also, what percent ranges does uthrow actually combo into a tipped utilt or something that starts a combo?

And how is Marth's "better" than Sheik's? Marth's lets them land farther from where you are, with less time before they hit the ground. Sheik also covers the away option better because of her boost grab. When you say Marth has a better dash, do you mean that he runs faster or do you mean he has a longer DD? I don't see how a longer DD is relevant. If you are talking about DDing to cover their on the ground options, how can you make that a guaranteed regrab? Also, can't CF just ASDI up to get out of Marth's jab reset at any percent?

 

[Druggedfox]

@KK

What if you DI falcon's dthrow down AND away, I think that would prevent a chaingrab, but lead to tech chases. While only DI'ing down OR away, would lead to a regrab... I would assume that's part of the issue here.

Marth has superior grab range to sheik, meaning you can grab from further away. Because of this, he doesn't have to rely on jab resets, and can just wait for the falcon when he doesn't tech. I'm sure sheik can also do this, but seeing as sheik's always opt to jab reset (except for m2k, because he's smart and upsmashes) I'm not sure what sheik can do in terms of just waiting. I consistently SDI sheik's jab reset, and sheik players never try to just wait and follow my tech (or upsmash) so I actually have no experience with it, other than just getting out of jab resets. With marth on the other hand, I've consistently tech chased people, so I can accurately assess that within my experience marth's is just as good if not better in terms of getting a regrab. Sheik obviously has better punishment.

I would like to say that I start upthrow uptilting falcon somewhere around 30%, but last time I tried that I think someone avoided it with some DI (or I was too slow). I'll have to test it further, but the majority of the time 25-35% is when I start actually uptilting. Also, if they go too far for me to uptilt, I can always tech chase them >_>

 

[Archangel]

The Hax vs IB set was sooo bad aaah

I.B. Won two close matches. Even though the record shows 2-0 in reality it was a very close loss twice. Not too bad. Not like he got 3 stocked twice or something.


Speaking of Hax vs Marth though I got a MM against him at ROM3....any advice?
aside form bringing lube, tissues, and money of course?

 

[Druggedfox]

Please actually go off stage and **** falcon's recovery, unlike I.B.

 

[Archangel]

Please actually go off stage and **** falcon's recovery, unlike I.B.

So many Good Marths seem to committed to the Ken Charged Fsmash at the fingertips edgeguard for some reason. I even noticed other Marths doing this though sometimes. It's so easy to just wavedash-grab the ledge but NOBODY does it lol.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Walk after your uthrow at those %s drugged

 

[KirbyKaze]

@KK

What if you DI falcon's dthrow down AND away, I think that would prevent a chaingrab, but lead to tech chases. While only DI'ing down OR away, would lead to a regrab... I would assume that's part of the issue here.

I doubt it, but it doesn't really matter anyway since the point is that he has a follow that works vs every DI Marth does off D-throw.

The Falcon players' decision to gamble their stomp tech chases at percents when they can react regrab and grind to the combo percent and then get a better groove going is their fault, not necessarily a problem of Falcon's. D-throw to 30, then U-throw Uair. Very simple. If Marth decides he wants to go offstage to avoid the tech chase (DIs D-throw away at the edge) then I'd assume ledge whatever probably beats him or at least continues the combo. Marth is easy to edgeguard. Falcon's ledge game is underrated.

I ignored the rest of your post because it has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If marth DIs dthrow away (off the stage), its a free knee for falcon. Not sure on the exact percents on it, but i think it starts around 50% and lasts for a really long time.

 

[Archangel]

If marth DIs dthrow away (off the stage), its a free knee for falcon. Not sure on the exact percents on it, but i think it starts around 50% and lasts for a really long time.

this..

your only hope is awkward weird *** DI in some situations. Like DI'ing straight up and hoping for a mis read lol.

 

[Winston]

Marth has superior grab range to sheik, meaning you can grab from further away. Because of this, he doesn't have to rely on jab resets, and can just wait for the falcon when he doesn't tech. I'm sure sheik can also do this, but seeing as sheik's always opt to jab reset (except for m2k, because he's smart and upsmashes) I'm not sure what sheik can do in terms of just waiting. I consistently SDI sheik's jab reset, and sheik players never try to just wait and follow my tech (or upsmash) so I actually have no experience with it, other than just getting out of jab resets. With marth on the other hand, I've consistently tech chased people, so I can accurately assess that within my experience marth's is just as good if not better in terms of getting a regrab. Sheik obviously has better punishment.

So what exactly do you do with marth for the missed tech option? Do you just stand out of range of the getup attack and wait for him to do something?

Also, I know we've argued about this before, but I'd like a concrete answer (so I can apply it to my own game). How do you deal with them sliding off the edge when fthrow techchasing? Last time I asked people just said things like 'trap them on the edge', which doesn't seem very satisfactory when we're looking for huge guaranteed punishes here.

I would like to say that I start upthrow uptilting falcon somewhere around 30%, but last time I tried that I think someone avoided it with some DI (or I was too slow). I'll have to test it further, but the majority of the time 25-35% is when I start actually uptilting. Also, if they go too far for me to uptilt, I can always tech chase them >_>

If they go too far to utilt can't they jump out if you wait for them to land on the ground? I mean you can call their jump then, but it makes it something not guaranteed in that case.

I.B. Won two close matches. Even though the record shows 2-0 in reality it was a very close loss twice. Not too bad. Not like he got 3 stocked twice or something.

No like, the set is just pretty bad for demonstrating high level Falcon vs. Marth play, on both sides of the matchup.

Please actually go off stage and **** falcon's recovery, unlike I.B.

This is one reason why

So many Good Marths seem to committed to the Ken Charged Fsmash at the fingertips edgeguard for some reason. I even noticed other Marths doing this though sometimes. It's so easy to just wavedash-grab the ledge but NOBODY does it lol.

Because it only works when Falcon won't make it back to the edge or is recovering below the stage... most of the time when you hit Falcon off he's recovering from high, so he can just go over you when you grab the edge. Sure you could ledgehop uair or something, but he can DI that in to the stage, or he could angle back to grab the edge. Overall aggressive offstage edgeguarding is best, coupled with some onstage fsmashes/dtilts/neutral bs/spikes in certain situations when they aren't avoidable/techable.

Walk after your uthrow at those %s drugged

Can't he just jump out then? I can't even always get the utilt to connect when I do it ASAP. Is the timing just really strict?

If Marth decides he wants to go offstage to avoid the tech chase (DIs D-throw away at the edge) then I'd assume ledge whatever probably beats him or at least continues the combo. Marth is easy to edgeguard. Falcon's ledge game is underrated.

Right, there are big zones where Falcon edgeguards Marth for free due to good ledge use. In certain zones, Marth's lack of horizontal mobility options forces him to either get smacked in the face by ledge invincible bair stall or airdodge, let Falcon regrab the edge, and smack/knee him in the face. Other zones include the "coming in from low and has to up b to get back to the stage", which loses to use of stalls/ledgedrop bairs that Falcon can do purely on reaction, or to lightshield edgehog. If Marth comes in from really high then it's not as guaranteed, but Marth will have to time a defensive option almost perfectly to stop Falcon from hitting him with an aerial, as his moves don't defend him from below that well. This combined with his bad horizontal makes coming in from high a bad spot for him also.

That's why I think Marth's advantage in edgeguarding is way overrated on Falcon. Marth has huge zones where his edgeguarding leads to a guaranteed KO given reasonably good execution, but so does Falcon with respect to the ways that he actually knocks Marth offstage.

People are quick to point to Marth's gimping ability on Falcon given that Falcon actually has to use his up b to recover, or if Marth's in position to runoff fair to steal his double jump, or things like the dthrow counter gimp, but these are just situational grab punishes and I'm not sure why they're a big reason why Marth wins. To me it seems just as situational as Falcon landing a nair/knee at low/mid percents and double kneeing Marth to oblivion. (Unless I'm wrong that Marth has to be really close to the edge for these to work. In my experience it seems like unless Marth is close enough to be able to runoff fair, Falcon just jumping back with a properly spaced double jump and grabbing the edge is quite safe.)

 

[KirbyKaze]

If Marth can tech chase reaction 0-death Falcon (which I don't necessarily agree with but w/e) then I question why his ability to D-throw --> 50/50 would ever matter because if you F-threw him back into the stage you'd just tech chase him forever and kill him eventually that way.

Oops theory smash.

 

[Divinokage]

If Marth can tech chase reaction 0-death Falcon (which I don't necessarily agree with but w/e) then I question why his ability to D-throw --> 50/50 would ever matter because if you F-threw him back into the stage you'd just tech chase him forever and kill him eventually that way.

Oops theory smash.

It's too bad in theory most things don't work out... It's unpredictable and there is a lot of mix-ups going on in a high level match.

 

[Druggedfox]

If Marth can tech chase reaction 0-death Falcon (which I don't necessarily agree with but w/e) then I question why his ability to D-throw --> 50/50 would ever matter because if you F-threw him back into the stage you'd just tech chase him forever and kill him eventually that way.

Oops theory smash.

I don't understand what you're talking about. What's D-throw -->50/50

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i think he meant dthrow off the stage to 50/50 edge guard

 

[Niko45]

If Marth can tech chase reaction 0-death Falcon (which I don't necessarily agree with but w/e) then I question why his ability to D-throw --> 50/50 would ever matter because if you F-threw him back into the stage you'd just tech chase him forever and kill him eventually that way.

Oops theory smash.

Yea I mean this is something else I don't understand. Even if Marth can tech chase forever at no % does he have any guaranteed KO from grab (meanwhile CF does from like 90 - whatever). You're just going to end up needing to get CF off stage anyway, so you might as well throw him off stage as soon as possible. I don't see why Marth potentially tech chasing Falcon forever would even make that huge a difference in the match up overall.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

cause u can KO with uthrow at 300%, duh.

 

[Druggedfox]

Actually, it's because it's easier to get him farther off stage at higher %s.

All three of you just made a terrible argument, because it's based on something I never said. I never said marth's tech chase on falcon led directly to death. Thus, the dthrow thing is a risk reward decision: would you rather tech chase for a lot of %, or take a chance that you'll get a kill?

Once again, I never claimed the tech chase led to death. Why not just throw him off? It's a personal risk-reward decision, and plus, falcon might never be in a position where you can dthrow him off stage. If falcon never lets you get in a position where you can dthrow him off stage (remember, your back will hardly be towards the edge since you're tech chasing with throw) how can you expect to gimp him? Rather than just makin fun of theory smash, why don't you actually learn to theory smash.

Tl;dr? If you're tech chasing, you're never in a position to dthrow him OFF the stage, and fthrow off stage isn't as good.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

fthrow off the stage is as good as dthrow. fthrow dtilt/fsmash if falcon DIs in, if not then you can run off fair or any other gimp you want.

 

[Druggedfox]

fthrow off the stage is as good as dthrow. fthrow dtilt/fsmash if falcon DIs in, if not then you can run off fair or any other gimp you want.

Fthrow does not apply for the specific 50/50 I was talking about. Fthrow has different uses in terms of how you approach the gimp. Additionally, the falcon can often space things with their DI so that it's hard to fthrow them off stage out of a tech chase. Sure you can grab them next to the edge and do it, but straight up out of a tech chase, the falcon can avoid it sometimes.

Either way, it doesn't apply to the 50/50, and was only a secondary part of my post. The main part being the main clause of my statement: "If you're tech chasing, you're never in a position to dthrow him OFF the stage"

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ Druggy

You said Marth can guaranteed reaction tech chase Falcon all over the place, set up combos at 30 and get like awesome damage, and then hit him off the stage with more percent. Or other nonsense. But I'll go with knock him off the stage with more percent.

My question is, therefore, if you get a grab at the edge when you can do all that, why even bother attempting the gimp? It's certainly not as guaranteed if it's a 50/50.

It doesn't really sound like risk reward or that you've properly evaluated the risk reward of that gimp setup anyway because failing it costs Marth his stage position potentially (which is big in this matchup since it's very heavily built on controlling space) and maybe gives Falcon a grab depending on percentages.

You also downplay Falcon's punishment significantly. The nature of that gimp has a high risk on Marth's behalf because you're hoping they'll hit a Counter half the time. Missing a Counter because of Falcon grabbing the edge can very easily lead to a lot more than 18%. I'm not sure why you think otherwise, since he gets a free stomp --> whatever he wants, or simply Knees / reverse Knees you at high percent and depending on position.

It's a potentially high risk with a high reward versus a low risk with a high reward.

So with all these things that can very easily go wrong, I'm wondering why would you risk something like that happening when you can just tech chase or combo, even if you get your back conveniently against the edge and grab him. If you have a fairly guaranteed 90 damage combo that ends with them offstage, which is very good, I'm curious as to why you'd ever do anything else. 90 damage + edgeguard attempt is really good and seems almost always better than a 50/50 that might shift momentum immensely.

 

[Druggedfox]

Well, first thing's first: how confident am I in my reads for the gimp?

The way I presented it is purely off guessing. If I have any notion of him as a player, and what his likely reactions are, the chance often significantly increases. Then I compare that to the chance of me messing up a tech chase.

I'm sure you would agree, and have said it yourself before, that sheik's tech chase on fastfallers is "basically a chaingrab" to quote you. It really IS guaranteed, with good enough reaction and decision making. Despite that, it's obviously possible that you mess up; it's the same thing in the marth scenario. In the falcon sheik matchup, we don't discount sheik's tech chasing as an option, despite the infrequency with which sheik players actually abuse this well (even tope isn't as consistent as he could/should be). Similarly, there are times I'd rather bank my chances on my abilities to read his response to my gimp attempt.

Also, I had to mention it as part of my argument in the matchup simply because there are so many skeptics as to marth's tech chasing abilities against falcon. I don't want the ENTIRE argument to rely on tech chasing, which is why I have brought up numerous points such as: cornering, stage control, priority/range, edgeguarding, and gimping.

 

[Niko45]

As far as up throw up tilting goes, I think the window for it is extremely small compared to the spacies and it depends on DI. You need them to DI hard in either direction at what I'm going to say is roughly like 28-33%. If Falcon doesn't DI at this point you will hit him with a mid sword up tilt which will allow him to tech the same way a spacie would if you up tilted too early. If they're at too high a % they can DI away and the up tilt will miss and I don't think there is time to walk and still up tilt like there is against say, Falco because the cool down on up throw is too long with CF. You can combo up tilt a CF with no DI at a bit higher %, around 40.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Well, first thing's first: how confident am I in my reads for the gimp?

The way I presented it is purely off guessing. If I have any notion of him as a player, and what his likely reactions are, the chance often significantly increases. Then I compare that to the chance of me messing up a tech chase.

I'm sure you would agree, and have said it yourself before, that sheik's tech chase on fastfallers is "basically a chaingrab" to quote you. It really IS guaranteed, with good enough reaction and decision making. Despite that, it's obviously possible that you mess up; it's the same thing in the marth scenario. In the falcon sheik matchup, we don't discount sheik's tech chasing as an option, despite the infrequency with which sheik players actually abuse this well (even tope isn't as consistent as he could/should be). Similarly, there are times I'd rather bank my chances on my abilities to read his response to my gimp attempt.

Also, I had to mention it as part of my argument in the matchup simply because there are so many skeptics as to marth's tech chasing abilities against falcon. I don't want the ENTIRE argument to rely on tech chasing, which is why I have brought up numerous points such as: cornering, stage control, priority/range, edgeguarding, and gimping.

If you're reading him to gimp him, that's a player skill advantage and doesn't reflect on the quality of the gimp itself. He could very easily read you and get out, netting a 16% stomp + follow in the process. That's the nature of this sort of thing.

 

[Dart!]

It looks like i'm coming in half way through my FAVORITE matchup being discussed...=(

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Can't he just jump out then? I can't even always get the utilt to connect when I do it ASAP. Is the timing just really strict?

Yeah the timing is tough tbh. I have trouble with it too. Holding to walk during your uthrow animation helps, but if they time their jump really well its still tough.

 

[Dart!]

Yeah the timing is tough tbh. I have trouble with it too. Holding to walk during your uthrow animation helps, but if they time their jump really well its still tough.

After playing certain people i'm almost certain falcon can jump out of the uthrow before you can utilt if they wiggle DI out and jump

 

[Druggedfox]

It's definitely not guaranteed like vs fox/falco. It depends on their DI and percent, but when used at the right time is extremely useful. Don't forget about reverse uptilting in certain scenarios as well (to take advantage of their positioning).

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

After playing certain people i'm almost certain falcon can jump out of the uthrow before you can utilt if they wiggle DI out and jump

Yeah, I'd say thats probably true. Still very useful though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Wiggling doesn't affect stun. The only thing it does is remove tumble ASAP.

Stun is a set value that depends on the percent of you, the percent of the move that hit you (usually but not always), and the move used. You can tumble after the stun has finished, but as soon as the stun finishes, tumble or not, you can jump or attack. The only one you're missing by not wiggling is the air-dodge. And the often overlooked ability to land on your feet rather than fall into a tech/non-tech position. But that one isn't really relevant if Marth is trying to combo you.