Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ehh??? Since when? =P
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Marth's Match-Up Chart thread
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Haha, the kage bait worked!
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I'm not sure if that's good or not.. because once you've caught me, the only thing that you will have is a punch in your face lol.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
LOL good point. *Throws wild Kage back*
Archangel
Smash Hero
idk since he was made. I mean technically you can switch things up but not to the degree someone like Falco could.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
marth fox: 50/50
marth falco: 50/50 or 55/45
marth sheik: 40/60
marth falcon: ?? honestly. i'll default to 50/50, but i feel like it's slight Falcon advantage after playing with GG7
marth ganon: ?? haven't played any Ganons aside from Axe, and i started figuring the matchup out last week when we played like, 4 matches, so idk
marth peach: 55/45 or 60/40
marth falco: 50/50 or 55/45
marth sheik: 40/60
marth falcon: ?? honestly. i'll default to 50/50, but i feel like it's slight Falcon advantage after playing with GG7
marth ganon: ?? haven't played any Ganons aside from Axe, and i started figuring the matchup out last week when we played like, 4 matches, so idk
marth peach: 55/45 or 60/40
Dart!
Smash Master
Marth Falcon isn't even, i'll get back to you on what i really think after i play top level falcons on the regular though
Archangel
Smash Hero
Marth Falcon is even or slight marth.
I think what people for get is just because a match is even or slightly in your favor doesn't mean your gonna win. You gotta put the work in and be on your A game all the time.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
It's really funny to just sit there, wait for falcon to commit, side-b him out of his approach. CC everything... edgeguard everything... upthrow ken combo... marth's favor... :D
Archangel
Smash Hero
maybe slight Marth or even but I can't see Falcon's favor. If you lose to a Falcon its just that they are on a higher level in regards to the MU then you or...you just lost...you losing doesn't mean it's in falcons favor.
Archangel
Smash Hero
No way it's 55-45 Falcon. it's not possible.
Fortress | Sveet
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falcons approach on marth: 6/10
marths approach on falcon: 4/10
falcons defense of marth's approach: 7/10
marth's defense of falcon's approach: 7/10
marths approach on falcon: 4/10
falcons defense of marth's approach: 7/10
marth's defense of falcon's approach: 7/10
Winston
Smash Master
Can't you turn that around and say
"dashdance, wait for marth to commit, dd grab/space aerial/raptor boost him out of his approach. DD everything... edgeguard everything... u/dthrow nair/uair/knee combo"
Edgeguarding is Marth's favor, but only by a little. Overall punishment is in Falcon's favor on the big stages and in Marth's favor on Yoshi's/FoD maybe. Marth's limiting of Falcon's space vs. Falcon's evasion is again stage dependent. Both are very punishable when they actually approach vs each other.
edit: and before you say what I said can be countered by X, Y, and Z, my point was that druggedfox's summary of the matchup is way oversimplified/optimisitic in Marth's favor...
Niko45
Smash Master
Lol @ cc everything vs falcon. Lol @ this whole breakdown actually.
Still an even matchup tho imo. Both characters have great tools. It's really stage dependent.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Yes, it was an oversimplification. Maybe that's because I was joking? Good job guys. You want more in depth? Here (I'm not pointing out "X,Y, and Z", I'm actually giving you a real analysis, since you guys don't understand a joke):
Actually, marth's approach is significantly better than falcon's, seeing as marth entirely outranges/prioritizes falcon. The way marth's style works, he never has to commit. He has things like dtilt IASA dash away to cover him, just as an example.
That's why you can't make the same argument for falcon. Falcon can't just "space an aerial" against marth. The marth would have to have AWFUL spacing for that to happen. Marth on the other hand, can out range falcon; so even if a falcon was spacing aerials AMAZINGLY, marth could just beat it out. Raptor boost is also CC'able. Marth's side-b won't be used until falcon is already moving towards marth with an attack. The nature of marth's game isn't to commit in such a forward-moving fashion that would get him raptor boosted.
Off stage game? Not only does marth has the advantage in edgeguarding, but he can also gimp the hell out of falcon. Scenario: Marth downthrows falcon off stage. The only option falcon has to beat marth simply running off the stage with a fair is an immediate DJ aerial/airdodge. If marth gets hit, it's not a big deal. Low risk, high reward. On the other hand, if falcon gets hit by the fair, he's dead. The alternative marth can take is simply counter. If falcon DJ aerials, he's dead. If falcon just grabs the edge, he gets one free hit on marth. Once again, low risk, high reward. Marth can gimp falcon in this manner, without really having to worry about much besides taking 18% from a knee, while falcon has to worry about dying at ANY %.
Overall punishment is also not in falcon's favor; maybe it was back in 2004 when people didn't know how to DI and got hit by everything, and didn't know how to do **** with marth. Nowadays, marth has a fairly easy guaranteed tech chase on falcon. Additionally, on these "larger stages" marth has RIDICULOUS juggling on falcon. I personally love when a falcon takes me to FD. I can tech chase them forever, or I can opt for uptilt/uair combos from 30-90, ending with getting him off stage. Also, upthrow frequently sets up into a ken combo. Marth's juggling straight up matches falcon's grab combos; their punishment games on larger stages are EVEN without marth even resorting to tech chasing. Oh also, marth can tech chase from 0-30, upon which he can start juggling; this way, he even has a guaranteed set up into the juggling.
PS: You can SDI the first hit of falcon's nair so that the second hit never hits. You might try to say this is impractical, but my training partner would do it literally with such consistency that I had to quit using nair in that matchup to actually do any sort of combo.
And actually, you can CC grab falcons: uair, nair, and bair. The stomp and knee aren't that great approaches because of their bad range, but they are falcons only aerial approaches that don't get CC grabbed at low %s.
People seriously don't abuse even half the things they could when playing this matchup.
Additionally, had either of you kept up with the thread, you could tell I was making jokes about the ganon matchup as well. Yes, I do understand that you can't beat ganondorf just by fairing and dash dancing. Yes, I understand that you have to do more than CC everything to beat falcon.
Learn to read in context, it's not hard.
Actually, marth's approach is significantly better than falcon's, seeing as marth entirely outranges/prioritizes falcon. The way marth's style works, he never has to commit. He has things like dtilt IASA dash away to cover him, just as an example.
That's why you can't make the same argument for falcon. Falcon can't just "space an aerial" against marth. The marth would have to have AWFUL spacing for that to happen. Marth on the other hand, can out range falcon; so even if a falcon was spacing aerials AMAZINGLY, marth could just beat it out. Raptor boost is also CC'able. Marth's side-b won't be used until falcon is already moving towards marth with an attack. The nature of marth's game isn't to commit in such a forward-moving fashion that would get him raptor boosted.
Off stage game? Not only does marth has the advantage in edgeguarding, but he can also gimp the hell out of falcon. Scenario: Marth downthrows falcon off stage. The only option falcon has to beat marth simply running off the stage with a fair is an immediate DJ aerial/airdodge. If marth gets hit, it's not a big deal. Low risk, high reward. On the other hand, if falcon gets hit by the fair, he's dead. The alternative marth can take is simply counter. If falcon DJ aerials, he's dead. If falcon just grabs the edge, he gets one free hit on marth. Once again, low risk, high reward. Marth can gimp falcon in this manner, without really having to worry about much besides taking 18% from a knee, while falcon has to worry about dying at ANY %.
Overall punishment is also not in falcon's favor; maybe it was back in 2004 when people didn't know how to DI and got hit by everything, and didn't know how to do **** with marth. Nowadays, marth has a fairly easy guaranteed tech chase on falcon. Additionally, on these "larger stages" marth has RIDICULOUS juggling on falcon. I personally love when a falcon takes me to FD. I can tech chase them forever, or I can opt for uptilt/uair combos from 30-90, ending with getting him off stage. Also, upthrow frequently sets up into a ken combo. Marth's juggling straight up matches falcon's grab combos; their punishment games on larger stages are EVEN without marth even resorting to tech chasing. Oh also, marth can tech chase from 0-30, upon which he can start juggling; this way, he even has a guaranteed set up into the juggling.
PS: You can SDI the first hit of falcon's nair so that the second hit never hits. You might try to say this is impractical, but my training partner would do it literally with such consistency that I had to quit using nair in that matchup to actually do any sort of combo.
And actually, you can CC grab falcons: uair, nair, and bair. The stomp and knee aren't that great approaches because of their bad range, but they are falcons only aerial approaches that don't get CC grabbed at low %s.
People seriously don't abuse even half the things they could when playing this matchup.
Additionally, had either of you kept up with the thread, you could tell I was making jokes about the ganon matchup as well. Yes, I do understand that you can't beat ganondorf just by fairing and dash dancing. Yes, I understand that you have to do more than CC everything to beat falcon.
Learn to read in context, it's not hard.
OverLord
Smash Ace
After some matches I have to say I agree with slightly Marth's favor.
I striked into FD on the first match and ***** the hell out of that Falcon today. Chasing and combos are silly, and I don't even got a spike.
PS: SDI Falcon's Nair is easy. Seretur can actually SDI even Marth's Nair very consistently.
I striked into FD on the first match and ***** the hell out of that Falcon today. Chasing and combos are silly, and I don't even got a spike.
PS: SDI Falcon's Nair is easy. Seretur can actually SDI even Marth's Nair very consistently.
Fortress | Sveet
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I disagree with marth's approach being good vs falcon. For one, falcon is significantly faster than marth. This means marth never really has the option to chase falcon. Second, marth's only real ground approaches are dash attack and dtilt, both of which can be beaten by SH dair. Marth's air approaches are nair and fair, both of which can be dd punished and trade with falcon's nair, bair and knee.
Not to mention the mixup that is sideb. As we know, marth has to hit with the tip. If falcon ever calls marth coming in with a tip, falcon can use the tuck of the sideb to dodge and then punish. It also works sometimes during tech chases, like if you miss the tech and wait, marth has to wait outside the getup attack range; you can do a standard getup and then sideb which actually beats a lot of things marth can do in that situation. Definitely not something to spam, but is still a very useful tool in the match-up.
Not to mention the mixup that is sideb. As we know, marth has to hit with the tip. If falcon ever calls marth coming in with a tip, falcon can use the tuck of the sideb to dodge and then punish. It also works sometimes during tech chases, like if you miss the tech and wait, marth has to wait outside the getup attack range; you can do a standard getup and then sideb which actually beats a lot of things marth can do in that situation. Definitely not something to spam, but is still a very useful tool in the match-up.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
If marth is spacing dtilt well and reacting with the IASA, unless the falcon KNOWS it's coming (he can't react, he has to predict it) there's no way he can dair marth out of his downtilt. It's simply not going to happen.
Also, I'd love to see you trade with marth's fair using bair/fair/nair. Think about what you're saying. Marth's fair vs. falcon's any aerial. I can't take that seriously.
Also, marth isn't that slow of a character. Sure, running speed and mobility. In terms of lag, and their options out of it? Marth's lag on his aerials is pretty much exactly the same as falcons. Marth has 7 frames of lag on his fair if l-canceled, and 7 on his nair (which he can also autocancel). Falcon has 7 on his uair/nair (which can both be CC'd and autocanceled) and 9 on his bair (autocancel). Marth has much better FAST options out of those attacks than falcon does (Who only really has jab). Marth has dtilt, uptilt, side-b, jab, just to name a few.
In addition to the above, marth's corner game is amazing: both forcing them into a corner, and keeping them there. Honestly, speed isn't a problem for marth in this matchup.
@Overlord
It is easy =D I'm just writing that in, because people will just argue "Oh it's too hard to be practical"
Also, I'd love to see you trade with marth's fair using bair/fair/nair. Think about what you're saying. Marth's fair vs. falcon's any aerial. I can't take that seriously.
Also, marth isn't that slow of a character. Sure, running speed and mobility. In terms of lag, and their options out of it? Marth's lag on his aerials is pretty much exactly the same as falcons. Marth has 7 frames of lag on his fair if l-canceled, and 7 on his nair (which he can also autocancel). Falcon has 7 on his uair/nair (which can both be CC'd and autocanceled) and 9 on his bair (autocancel). Marth has much better FAST options out of those attacks than falcon does (Who only really has jab). Marth has dtilt, uptilt, side-b, jab, just to name a few.
In addition to the above, marth's corner game is amazing: both forcing them into a corner, and keeping them there. Honestly, speed isn't a problem for marth in this matchup.
@Overlord
It is easy =D I'm just writing that in, because people will just argue "Oh it's too hard to be practical"
Winston
Smash Master
I've seen all of these points before, so I'd much rather get an in-depth analysis of the joke, which I don't understand.
Where's the humor in it?
Niko45
Smash Master
Huh? When Marth's didn't know how to DI? There are huge windows where CF's combos are inescapable regardless of DI. It's not a matter of bad DI. Meanwhile a lot of these Marth punishes you are referencing (uthrow ken combo?) are escapable through DI. I don't disagree that Marth has a great punish on CFalcon in general but I would disagree that it's quite as good. Unless you are talking about a tip fsmash finisher, Marth can't really compete with the Knee. I mean, CF has a guaranteed uthrow/dthrow knee KO for like a 20% window depending on stage. That's pretty ****in good. The other major punishment disparity I find is in tech chasing. Marth can tech chase regrab just fine and that's certainly nothing to underestimate but it's not exactly tech chasing with dair -> knee or just plain old knee. I feel like you're coming from the perspective of "people really underrate Marth in this match up", which I can understand since I would agree people have but if you're looking at their punish games objectively, we're talking about a very good punish game from Marth and a fantastic punish game from CF, at least in my opinion.
Yea, I don't find Falcon's nair very effective at all against Marth. Only real place I find it effective is after a dthrow at very low%. SDI could come in handy here, since Marth can't CC grab from that position.
It's either poor spacing or really really low % if you're actually cc grabbing a bair. I mean, you generally don't want to be getting hit by bair. There's no quick fix to that like there is with nair. The fact that knee and dair can't be cc'd makes them extremely useful. Dair at the very least can still be spaced on shield. But I mean neither character really truly can safely approach. Can Marth counter a straight up CF approach? Yes. But you can't just whiff and expect cc to bail you out. It's not hard for CF to punish with dair or knee.
I don't really agree with this. I see at least a couple of Marths now I feel play the matchup very solidly. Again, I feel like you subscribe to this common theory going around these days that all Marths are terrible or playing all their matchups wrong. While I agree Marths could certainly do better, I don't think most of the matchups are out of line. A great Marth should certainly be able to overcome a bad matchup, or make an even matchup look lopsided (M2K vs Fox?), but currently they don't. I don't think that means all Marth's matchups underrate him, however. Again I think it's even vs CF. Lots of tools on each side. Marth advantage I don't see the case for. People aren't using side B? That's pretty old news... SDIing nairs? Not going to swing the entire matchup...
Sorry, did kinda jump all over you. My bad. In any case, again, I don't agree with using this term "cc everything" because...you shouldn't. I mean if you whiff an approach or something, you really should not CC... You should expect CF to punish with something non-CCable, and CCing will only compound the damage done to you. So I don't think it's about realizing that it's "more than" just ccing, but that ccing can be damaging to marth in some situations. And in fact, CCing becomes fairly obselete at higher levels of the matchup, because the CF is going to know what you can and can't CC, and isn't going to just give you a free opportunity to CC when they could have avoided it by using a different move or opting not to approach in X situation.
Fortress | Sveet
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Any approaching fair or nair can trade with falcon's aerials if timed correctly. Its all about having the hitbox active when marth swings his sword, causing his arm to be hit by the move on the same frame his hitbox moves down.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Marth shouldn't ever be spacing fairs in a way that falcon can trade with them.
@Gustav: The humor was just in the fact that falcon is honestly a character with a lot of easy to exploit flaws, while marth is a good one. I'm laughing at falcon and ganon for not being top tier =P
@Niko
Thanks for actually replying with legitimate points. Um, yes, a lot of combos are inescapable, but there are a LOT of combos that falcon players pull off that are purely because of bad DI. Also, things like upthrow ken combo, if they ever DI towards the edge on FD... are pretty guaranteed. If they DI to escape the ken combo, they're putting themselves in a bad offstage position... a falcon off stage is a dead falcon. If they don't DI to escape... they get daired. It's a win-win for marth.
I'd also rather have a guaranteed 0-whatever damage I feel like tech chase, than a simple downthrow tech chase knee. Sure, falcon gets a knee. Marth on the other hand, can tech chase literally from zero to like 80 (at which point it's impractical and you can just get them off stage). Falcon should be way more scared of marth when he gets a grab, than the reverse. I'm not scared of eating a knee; they should be scared of getting 0-death tech chased =/ I am coming from the "people underestimate marth" perspective... but I don't understand how 0-death tech chases only qualify as a "very good punish game" while falcon's often heavily DI dependent combo game is "fantastic".
Um, yes, CC grab bair at low %s. I only really care about low percents because all I need is one grab to seriously screw up falcon. You're right, dair and knee beat CC, but that's what I want them to do. I want to make them scared of using their aerials which actually have good range, and force them to use aerials that can't even have a chance to trade with me =D.
Um... maybe I can it like this: I literally sat there, waiting for falcon to be moving towards me in the air with an attack, and side-b him out of it. It's not prediction at all, it's an extremely simple reaction. That's just an example. It's not that marth players all play their matchups all wrong... it's that they don't abuse the little things that make marth amazing. Those little tricks add up to be ridiculous. They're not just gimmicks, which is the beauty of them; marth players really don't abuse half the things they could, in terms of those tricks. I'll be more specific next time for sure. Marth players definitely abuse the majority of the standard stuff, but there are so many little things that just change matchups from being even, to marth's favor; or from marth's disadvantage, to being even.
That's the real idea of what I was saying; yes, it's an even matchup until you consider a bunch of little things marth has that add up. It's why marth is such a good character imo; without them, he still does amazingly well, but with them it turns the tables in his advantage almost every time.
No problem, I was just annoyed that I couldn't get away with kidding on the marth boards without 2-3 people all jumping on it at once... and as I said, I don't need to CC all the time, just at 0% where falcon's only option is pretty much grab/dair, though I already explained this.
@Gustav: The humor was just in the fact that falcon is honestly a character with a lot of easy to exploit flaws, while marth is a good one. I'm laughing at falcon and ganon for not being top tier =P
@Niko
Thanks for actually replying with legitimate points. Um, yes, a lot of combos are inescapable, but there are a LOT of combos that falcon players pull off that are purely because of bad DI. Also, things like upthrow ken combo, if they ever DI towards the edge on FD... are pretty guaranteed. If they DI to escape the ken combo, they're putting themselves in a bad offstage position... a falcon off stage is a dead falcon. If they don't DI to escape... they get daired. It's a win-win for marth.
I'd also rather have a guaranteed 0-whatever damage I feel like tech chase, than a simple downthrow tech chase knee. Sure, falcon gets a knee. Marth on the other hand, can tech chase literally from zero to like 80 (at which point it's impractical and you can just get them off stage). Falcon should be way more scared of marth when he gets a grab, than the reverse. I'm not scared of eating a knee; they should be scared of getting 0-death tech chased =/ I am coming from the "people underestimate marth" perspective... but I don't understand how 0-death tech chases only qualify as a "very good punish game" while falcon's often heavily DI dependent combo game is "fantastic".
Um, yes, CC grab bair at low %s. I only really care about low percents because all I need is one grab to seriously screw up falcon. You're right, dair and knee beat CC, but that's what I want them to do. I want to make them scared of using their aerials which actually have good range, and force them to use aerials that can't even have a chance to trade with me =D.
Um... maybe I can it like this: I literally sat there, waiting for falcon to be moving towards me in the air with an attack, and side-b him out of it. It's not prediction at all, it's an extremely simple reaction. That's just an example. It's not that marth players all play their matchups all wrong... it's that they don't abuse the little things that make marth amazing. Those little tricks add up to be ridiculous. They're not just gimmicks, which is the beauty of them; marth players really don't abuse half the things they could, in terms of those tricks. I'll be more specific next time for sure. Marth players definitely abuse the majority of the standard stuff, but there are so many little things that just change matchups from being even, to marth's favor; or from marth's disadvantage, to being even.
That's the real idea of what I was saying; yes, it's an even matchup until you consider a bunch of little things marth has that add up. It's why marth is such a good character imo; without them, he still does amazingly well, but with them it turns the tables in his advantage almost every time.
No problem, I was just annoyed that I couldn't get away with kidding on the marth boards without 2-3 people all jumping on it at once... and as I said, I don't need to CC all the time, just at 0% where falcon's only option is pretty much grab/dair, though I already explained this.
Fortress | Sveet
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I listed off marth's approach options, and the methods falcon could use to punish them. Any time marth moves forward with an aerial he risks double hitting more. Moving forward with an aerial beats various slight spacing punishes such as sideb and dash dancing but can trade/lose to just about any stationary attack.
Technically, you can space a knee so it trades with marth's fair while marth is standing still and retreating as well.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I'm pretty sure about three posts ago I already addressed marth moving forward with an aerial; that enough makes me not even care about replying =/
Niko45
Smash Master
Come on. Marth tech chases better than CF? Have you seen PC Jona's tech chased!?!? Nah but seriously, I didn't necessarily mean FROM GRAB. Falcon has a better tech chase for general use. Like Marth is pretty much going to be tech chasing always with grab (though circumstantially obviously he can tech chase with some other stuff). Grabbing is great for Marth early on for damage building but what happens when the opponent is at 120 in the middle of FD? Do you want to be tech chasing with grab or stomp knee? :/ And I think in general the way you sized up their punishes is quite biased. 0-80 regrab tech chasing is not easier than SHFFLing 2-3 uairs into a full hop knee, which there is like a 40% window where that is inescapable. Even if you want to say in a perfect world they both end in death, which is easier or more commonly seen?
In general Marth can not finish combos like CF can finish. I don't care how good you think Marth's edgeguard is on CF, it's not as good as launching Marth into the stage barrier. Plus, so many of Marth's launchers give the opponent a ton of height after they DI, and we have to be realistic in saying that a CF that up B's very high back towards the stage is not necessarily a dead falcon. He's very tricky from that position, and often Marth can at best just jump up and nair him (hopefully) offstage again (don't want to wait for him to land since he could ledge cancel).
I don't really see this match up as being about range at all, at least that's not what Marth is worried about imo. I would love more than anything for CF to spam cc-able stuff on me, cause like you said, that's a Marth grab and that's a major punish. Eaaaassy. I'm much more concerned about CF being more patient, baiting me with good movement, running at me with shield, or dropping in on me with spaced bairs or dairs. The matchup involves a lot of movement and baiting. CF has great movement and is a bit more versatile in how he can navigate the stage. He's constantly threatening Marth's space since he can attack you from so far away, but on the other hand if their moves ever clash, Marth is going to win with his disjointed hitboxes. So more than anything CF is trying to bait Marth into doing something cause it'll be laggy and he can then attack confidently. Marth would like to trade moves but doesn't really want to just guess when CF is going to attack so he also does not commit to moves, tries to bait commitments from CF and also tries maneuver CF into "traps" near the edge of the stage where his options are more limited and he really feels the pressure to do something. CF's range is not really what comes to mind as something Marth is really worried about in the matchup.
Why isn't CF just sitting there waiting for Marth to move towards HIM? Side B certainly has its uses but it sounds like the CF is impatient and approaching from too far away, leaving plenty of time to react and have his predictable approach stuffed. Marth, for example, could just react with...shield? CF's has horrific shield pressuring options, and Marth has great punishes out of shield. I mean, like I said Marth can stuff a linear CF approach just fine with many different options and side B is not suddenly making this possible for him. Side B is also DI escapable for CF. Side B lags, and can be baited and punished like anything else Marth does. What if CF short hops towards Marth, baits the side b, but then quickly double jumps and fast falls on top of Marth with a dair? It's a nice mix up, though, I won't deny it.
I guess I'm just not convinced that these little things really change this matchup. Do they really "add up" and accumulate into tipping the scale? Or are they situational techniques that overlap with other options that Marth has in those situations, not producing any particularly unique advantage?
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Actually, first, I must say that 0-80 tech chase IS easier than uair-uair-knee. Marth tech chasing falcon is a joke, and taking into consideration the setup, i would say yes, it is easier. How is falcon getting a uair? Marth can pull off grabs so much more easily that even if he messes up, it's okay. That plays a big role.
Also, you have yet to address marth's gimping abilities. Marth's edgeguarding might not be as good as falcon launching him into the barrier, but I already addressed this. Marth's edgeguarding IN ADDITION to his gimping abilities, which I already described how low risk/high reward they are, definitely put that above falcon's ability to launch marth into the barrier+ edgeguarding.
Your next part comes down to CF baiting marth. I must say this: marth hardly does anything laggy. A good marth, when fighting someone who is trying to bait him, can use so many safe options that are good at covering, that he never has to do something laggy.
Also: " He's constantly threatening Marth's space since he can attack you from so far away"... "CF's range is not really what comes to mind as something Marth is really worried about in the matchup."
That was a part of the baiting paragraph, I just split it off to make it easier to see the contradiction you're making. Falcon honestly isnt' threatening marth's space because CF's range is hardly an issue for marth. That said, marth isn't really threatened: he has room to breath and can easily play safe enough to win baiting battles through character advantages.
Continuing:
Um, I thought I made this fairly clear: I don't wait to see falcon short hop towards me before side-b. I SEE falcon's aerial coming at me already, in a position where his momentum is already guaranteed that he will reach me (with the aerial already out). I will never get baited by a falcon simply short hopping, baiting the side-b, then stomping me after a DJ. Why? Because I wait until I see an aerial. Also, that's the thing: such a move with falcon is risky. Because I wait to see the aerial, in theory, falcon could just wait until the last second to aerial. If he does this, I'm probably going to dash dance out of the way if I notice that he hasn't done an aerial yet. That's the beauty of marth's dash dance: it's a spacing tool. I'll rarely let myself get into a position where falcon can just hit me with a really delayed aerial; marth's dash dancing should force falcon, to a degree to telegraph his approach.
Also, marth can be approaching falcon. Marth has a spacing game that can slowly push falcon into a corner without ever actually committing. Marth's combination of near lagless and high priority aerial + ground play (with the right moves) in addition to his amazing dash, he can approach without ever actually committing. It's not a real approach, he's just getting closer and closer, until falcon is in a corner. Falcon doesn't have the ability to do this in the same way, because his ground game doesn't match marth's, and his aerial game doesn't have the same priority. Falcon, to imitate this, can only rely on his dash game. That said, marth has a successful cornering approach, that forces falcon into a bad position; falcon can't do the same.
That's the thing, if the falcon outsmarts the marth, of COURSE he can get around all these things I'm mentioning. The point is, this is a matchup discussion: this isn't about one player having the ability to outbait the other. This is about if they both have equal skill, whose character can give them the edge; I think all the things I have listed show how marth's superiority as a character give him the advantage over falcon. The difference is that most falcon players have to rely on such baiting skills in ALL their matchups, so it's particularly easy for them in that regard. Marth players don't actually use the tools that they need for the falcon matchup in the rest of their matchups as often, so it's usually not an even playing field because of that.
Also, you have yet to address marth's gimping abilities. Marth's edgeguarding might not be as good as falcon launching him into the barrier, but I already addressed this. Marth's edgeguarding IN ADDITION to his gimping abilities, which I already described how low risk/high reward they are, definitely put that above falcon's ability to launch marth into the barrier+ edgeguarding.
Your next part comes down to CF baiting marth. I must say this: marth hardly does anything laggy. A good marth, when fighting someone who is trying to bait him, can use so many safe options that are good at covering, that he never has to do something laggy.
Also: " He's constantly threatening Marth's space since he can attack you from so far away"... "CF's range is not really what comes to mind as something Marth is really worried about in the matchup."
That was a part of the baiting paragraph, I just split it off to make it easier to see the contradiction you're making. Falcon honestly isnt' threatening marth's space because CF's range is hardly an issue for marth. That said, marth isn't really threatened: he has room to breath and can easily play safe enough to win baiting battles through character advantages.
Continuing:
Um, I thought I made this fairly clear: I don't wait to see falcon short hop towards me before side-b. I SEE falcon's aerial coming at me already, in a position where his momentum is already guaranteed that he will reach me (with the aerial already out). I will never get baited by a falcon simply short hopping, baiting the side-b, then stomping me after a DJ. Why? Because I wait until I see an aerial. Also, that's the thing: such a move with falcon is risky. Because I wait to see the aerial, in theory, falcon could just wait until the last second to aerial. If he does this, I'm probably going to dash dance out of the way if I notice that he hasn't done an aerial yet. That's the beauty of marth's dash dance: it's a spacing tool. I'll rarely let myself get into a position where falcon can just hit me with a really delayed aerial; marth's dash dancing should force falcon, to a degree to telegraph his approach.
Also, marth can be approaching falcon. Marth has a spacing game that can slowly push falcon into a corner without ever actually committing. Marth's combination of near lagless and high priority aerial + ground play (with the right moves) in addition to his amazing dash, he can approach without ever actually committing. It's not a real approach, he's just getting closer and closer, until falcon is in a corner. Falcon doesn't have the ability to do this in the same way, because his ground game doesn't match marth's, and his aerial game doesn't have the same priority. Falcon, to imitate this, can only rely on his dash game. That said, marth has a successful cornering approach, that forces falcon into a bad position; falcon can't do the same.
That's the thing, if the falcon outsmarts the marth, of COURSE he can get around all these things I'm mentioning. The point is, this is a matchup discussion: this isn't about one player having the ability to outbait the other. This is about if they both have equal skill, whose character can give them the edge; I think all the things I have listed show how marth's superiority as a character give him the advantage over falcon. The difference is that most falcon players have to rely on such baiting skills in ALL their matchups, so it's particularly easy for them in that regard. Marth players don't actually use the tools that they need for the falcon matchup in the rest of their matchups as often, so it's usually not an even playing field because of that.
Winston
Smash Master
Sorry to be a dum-dum but could I get some cliff notes on this point? Are you saying that Marth's aerials can be spaced so you move forward and are still not vulnerable, or are you saying that Marth should just never move forward with an aerial in the first place?
Can you also outline the general method Marth uses to advance/corner while still being safe that you are referring to? Is it just like walking forwards while side Bing or something? Or is it inching forward with aerials?
You know, I'm starting to think you just have godly reaction time. I've been working on my Marth grab techchasing for like forever now and I still can't 0-80 with ease. Or even close. I also can't prevent them from sliding off the stage.
Maybe I just have terrible reaction time. And all the smashers in the state of maryland too.
I admit that if Marth players ever start killing Falcon off a grab very very consistently then the matchup is in Marth's favor. I haven't seen it yet though, except in your posts.
Just so we're clear about what we're arguing, does your proposed 0-80 techchasing algorithm involve the crouch to cover all the missed tech options? Or what?
Falcon has a gimp too. It's called nair -> knee -> knee. If it's true that the second hit of the nair should never connect though, I'll drop this point.
Falcon has guaranteed edgeguard on Marth in like 80-90% of the situations where he hits Marth offstage.
And those throw gimps only apply when Marth grabs Falcon reallly close to the edge. Otherwise, Marth doesn't have the time to runoff the stage before Falcon can dj grab the edge. This doesn't happen super duper often.
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
If falcon gets you off stage between 60-70% using upairs, regardless if you DI away or up, he can uair you away with his dj.
You'll be unable to make it back to the stage.
I guess i should test this to DI as far away as possible then DI up the dj uair. Perhaps then i can survive.
I'll test it tonight.
You'll be unable to make it back to the stage.
I guess i should test this to DI as far away as possible then DI up the dj uair. Perhaps then i can survive.
I'll test it tonight.
Niko45
Smash Master
If you survival DI the very last up air you should be able to just barely up B back to the stage which is easy for CF to time as far as getting on the ledge and then reverse kneeing you back off for the KO.
And Winston thank you for calling out this idea that tech chasing 0-80 with Marth is easier than SHFFLing 3 times in a row. Honestly if this is true I'm certainly very excited but since you don't see this anywhere I can't help but be extremely skeptical. I know for a fact that from 0 you can't guarantee regrab CFalcon with fthrow, so I'm assuming this is just dthrowing over and over back and forth? I mean there are traps near the ledge where dthrow works repeatedly but not just in general anywhere at any time. How come every Falcon on the planet can up air combo Marth but I've never once seen an actual 0-80 off regrabs with Marth. I need clarification.
Nø Ca$h
Smash Champion
marth falcon is stage dependant..
YS-marth wins
FoD-marth *****
BF-even
FD-falcon wins
DL64-falcon *****
PS-not too sure..
brinstar-marth *****
KJ64-falcon *****
RC-... lol
first match is usually BF. if the marth is comfortable with FD they usually wouldnt mind going there. the best choice is to take falcons to brinstar because like 99% ban FoD if they win first match.
id say its even or maybe 55:45 marth because falcon cant edgegaurd marth as much as marth can to falcon.
YS-marth wins
FoD-marth *****
BF-even
FD-falcon wins
DL64-falcon *****
PS-not too sure..
brinstar-marth *****
KJ64-falcon *****
RC-... lol
first match is usually BF. if the marth is comfortable with FD they usually wouldnt mind going there. the best choice is to take falcons to brinstar because like 99% ban FoD if they win first match.
id say its even or maybe 55:45 marth because falcon cant edgegaurd marth as much as marth can to falcon.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I'm about to double post to answer to entirely different things... without making a HUGE block of text:
Sorry guys... it's just my style of marth... ugh. I completely understand anyone being skeptical of the things I'm saying, but my style of marth focused on specifically two things:
-Matchups
-Execution
Like, those two things sum up my marth in its entirety; that said, maybe some of my posts make a bit more sense regarding marth?
When I tech chase falcon, I dthrow until a damage where fthrow forces him to tech/not tech (this is actually usually fairly low). It also depends on how I'm feeling+ stage. If it's FD, I'd honestly rather just "up" combo him for a long time. The reason for this being that it gives me a smaller margin of error than messing up a tech chase (I mean, even if something is easy for me, I as a player always pick the option with the least margin of error).
Otherwise, I'll just fthrow tech chase. If they don't tech, I generally prefer to dash dance out side the range of their get up attack, and then follow them. The trick to this is that when you're dashing away from him is when you want to dash the least + get ready the most for him to roll a directoin. The reason for this being that when you dash away from him is his greatest chance to escape (by teching away). I prefer being able to CC their get up attack, which works well, but of course that's % dependent so I trained myself to be at least somewhat consistent with just dash dancing when they don't tech. Of course, at lower %s jab reset is always an option. Another thing is that if they're near the edge and decide not to tech, I'll just opt for an fsmash... the faster I can get him off stage, the better usually.
Sorry guys... it's just my style of marth... ugh. I completely understand anyone being skeptical of the things I'm saying, but my style of marth focused on specifically two things:
-Matchups
-Execution
Like, those two things sum up my marth in its entirety; that said, maybe some of my posts make a bit more sense regarding marth?
When I tech chase falcon, I dthrow until a damage where fthrow forces him to tech/not tech (this is actually usually fairly low). It also depends on how I'm feeling+ stage. If it's FD, I'd honestly rather just "up" combo him for a long time. The reason for this being that it gives me a smaller margin of error than messing up a tech chase (I mean, even if something is easy for me, I as a player always pick the option with the least margin of error).
Otherwise, I'll just fthrow tech chase. If they don't tech, I generally prefer to dash dance out side the range of their get up attack, and then follow them. The trick to this is that when you're dashing away from him is when you want to dash the least + get ready the most for him to roll a directoin. The reason for this being that when you dash away from him is his greatest chance to escape (by teching away). I prefer being able to CC their get up attack, which works well, but of course that's % dependent so I trained myself to be at least somewhat consistent with just dash dancing when they don't tech. Of course, at lower %s jab reset is always an option. Another thing is that if they're near the edge and decide not to tech, I'll just opt for an fsmash... the faster I can get him off stage, the better usually.
Nø Ca$h
Smash Champion
theres two places you want falcon.. above you or off stage. get him offstage and its a stock. get under him and its lots of percent.
thats why grabs help alot in the falcon MU. f/dthrow techchase untill you can get him offstage or uthrow to chase his second jump and juggle him.
thats why grabs help alot in the falcon MU. f/dthrow techchase untill you can get him offstage or uthrow to chase his second jump and juggle him.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
As far as the cornering method I'm talking about with marth... it depends on the character I'm fighting. I guess I'll address falcon in particular.
So, consider marth's dash. Just try hitting the control stick in a direction, and going the full distance without actually breaking into the run animation. Marth goes really far. REALLY far. While that's probably obvious, that's the basis for how I start cornering with marth. Let's assume we're each at opposite sides of FD, waiting for each other, and I was to approach:
So I'm going to assume you know how fast falcon can get from one place to another, or at least be able to accurately approximate. That said, you use your dash in a way that while approaching, you give yourself enough space to retreat if falcon threatens your area. The thing is, falcon cannot completely regain the ground you did unless he one thing: commit. If falcon commits, he's pretty much screwed. When he doesn't commit, you go back, moving it a bit more forward. This whole time, there are a few safe moves you can be making to hold your ground: fair, dtilt, nair.
You should generally not be moving forward with these aerials, as that gives falcon the chance to actually get in on you. With dtilt's amazing range and 20 frame IASA... you're not getting punished. Fair has extremely low lag, and you can just dash away after using one. If falcon commits after your fair, you can uptilt etc. The same applies to nairs (autocanceled or not). Those are your three best moves to use while "approaching". You can continue this until you feel like you have falcon sufficiently "cornered" depending on what defines cornered for you. For me, If less than half of FD is between us, I feel like I can cover pretty much all his options pretty solidly, as long as I'm as smart as he is (as in, no player is smarter than the other).
The reason this does not work the reverse way is because marth can much more convincingly commit than falcon, and much more easily threatens anything resembling a pseudo-approach. Marth has more ways to cover his tracks when he actually uses an aerial than falcon does, making it actually rather risky for falcon to come in and try to take advantage of it. If falcon tries this pseudo approach, he has to be scared the whole time. Marth can, from a safe position, easily hit falcon out of any attempts to approach, while falcon can't do the same in the reverse situation. This is a part of why marth in a corner isn't really scary for marth against falcon... falcon can't do things like dtilt -->nair --> uptilt as a string to block approaches. Of course, falcon can try to bait the uptilt, but as long as marth waits for the falcon to try to do something (even if the marth is the cornered one) falcon simply doesn't have the ability to straight up cover marth's options.
In that manner, the falcon has to actually be able to outsmart the marth, while if the marth can simply match the falcon... your sheer ability to cover options more solidly than falcon gives you the advantage in such a situation.
So, consider marth's dash. Just try hitting the control stick in a direction, and going the full distance without actually breaking into the run animation. Marth goes really far. REALLY far. While that's probably obvious, that's the basis for how I start cornering with marth. Let's assume we're each at opposite sides of FD, waiting for each other, and I was to approach:
So I'm going to assume you know how fast falcon can get from one place to another, or at least be able to accurately approximate. That said, you use your dash in a way that while approaching, you give yourself enough space to retreat if falcon threatens your area. The thing is, falcon cannot completely regain the ground you did unless he one thing: commit. If falcon commits, he's pretty much screwed. When he doesn't commit, you go back, moving it a bit more forward. This whole time, there are a few safe moves you can be making to hold your ground: fair, dtilt, nair.
You should generally not be moving forward with these aerials, as that gives falcon the chance to actually get in on you. With dtilt's amazing range and 20 frame IASA... you're not getting punished. Fair has extremely low lag, and you can just dash away after using one. If falcon commits after your fair, you can uptilt etc. The same applies to nairs (autocanceled or not). Those are your three best moves to use while "approaching". You can continue this until you feel like you have falcon sufficiently "cornered" depending on what defines cornered for you. For me, If less than half of FD is between us, I feel like I can cover pretty much all his options pretty solidly, as long as I'm as smart as he is (as in, no player is smarter than the other).
The reason this does not work the reverse way is because marth can much more convincingly commit than falcon, and much more easily threatens anything resembling a pseudo-approach. Marth has more ways to cover his tracks when he actually uses an aerial than falcon does, making it actually rather risky for falcon to come in and try to take advantage of it. If falcon tries this pseudo approach, he has to be scared the whole time. Marth can, from a safe position, easily hit falcon out of any attempts to approach, while falcon can't do the same in the reverse situation. This is a part of why marth in a corner isn't really scary for marth against falcon... falcon can't do things like dtilt -->nair --> uptilt as a string to block approaches. Of course, falcon can try to bait the uptilt, but as long as marth waits for the falcon to try to do something (even if the marth is the cornered one) falcon simply doesn't have the ability to straight up cover marth's options.
In that manner, the falcon has to actually be able to outsmart the marth, while if the marth can simply match the falcon... your sheer ability to cover options more solidly than falcon gives you the advantage in such a situation.
Nø Ca$h
Smash Champion
^ really good post. nair and fair are mad safe and if spaced they eat falcons approaches. dtilt is also mad safe because you can threaten space without commiting.
falcon generally has two options if he wants to win. camp platforms or bait and punish.
falcon generally has two options if he wants to win. camp platforms or bait and punish.
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
Archangel
Smash Hero
One of the best posts I've seen since I've joined. Pretty much why I say this match can't ever be in Falcon's favor.
Niko45
Smash Master
Dtilt is safe? CF can just dair you. I mean dtilt is a nice mix up in the match up but I would never say that it's safe. Like, you can't afford to be spamming it cause it's unpunishable or something. Nair is admittedly extremely safe in the matchup just because it can't even be shield grabbed if you time it correctly. Cornering is very important in all of Marth's matchups, definitely. I still think you're underestimating Falcon. Once you close space on Falcon, you can't really just stand there necessarily. Marth's best defense in the game is swinging his sword, which then creates punishment opportunities for Falcon if Marth misses. Falcon can do aerials aimed behind you to anticipate your dash away after fair (Marth can actually then dash towards CF and cross him up, though, but it's still a guessing game - none of this is entirely safe).
And the fact that you actually prefer to combo in the air with Marth than tech chase with Marth due to the guaranteed-ness prove my point about CF's guaranteed punishes being better? :/
And the fact that you actually prefer to combo in the air with Marth than tech chase with Marth due to the guaranteed-ness prove my point about CF's guaranteed punishes being better? :/
ss118
Smash Master
Palpi
Smash Hero
Epic Kirbykaze paraphrase.
All marth has to do is tech chase...wait, all marths suck, never mind.
<3
All marth has to do is tech chase...wait, all marths suck, never mind.
<3