Marth Q&A-Ask your questions here!!

[KosukeKGA]

:S

Aye, alright. Mixed up a little there, but no hard feelings, eh? At the very least, the guy got his solid advice.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

ShineGrabbing:
(shine>jc grab)

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5
6
7 Start Jump
8 Start JC Grab
9
10
11
12
13
14 Grab "hits"

So, no.

EDIT: I feel like Marth doesn't really have to pressure shields, per se. If he just spaces himself out right and positions himself in such a way so as to limit your opponent's options, you've got the same kinda pressure as if you were spacing fairs on their shield, because you're still forcing them to move from a dead stop.

 

[ComboTurtle]

Wait, lightshielding adds shieldstun? Son of a *****!

@elvenarrow3000. Assume your facing a Falco and he dairs your shield (and you neglect to Shield DI away) he then L-cancels, shines, and JCs the shine to a grab. Is it possible for you (Marth) to shieldgrab him after the shine but before the Falco can grab you (shieldstun taken into account) or do you just have to hope that you've DI'ed far enough away to be outside of his grab range?

I would ask in the Falco forums but someone tried to tell me that JCGrab out of a Shine wasn't a good tactic so . . .

when u say shield di what do you mean by that? like semi lightshield at a certain angle so u get pushed away?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Shield DI is using shieldstun to Smash DI.

Wow, that was surprisingly succinct.

 

[Cosmo!]

walking and standing is some of the best shield pressure. I learned this from soap's sheik.

 

[soap]

lolol..............

 

[ComboTurtle]

Shield DI is using shieldstun to Smash DI.

Wow, that was surprisingly succinct.

elaborate please. you can di while you're in shield stun?

 

[KosukeKGA]

If you're holding your shield towards the direction of where you're being attacked, you will get less shieldstun.

You get more shieldstun if you hold away from your attacker.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Smash DI. Magus has a post on it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

If you're holding your shield towards the direction of where you're being attacked, you will get less shieldstun.

You get more shieldstun if you hold away from your attacker.

Wrong.

Smash DI. Magus has a post on it.

Right. You can smash DI during shieldhit-lag (not shield stun).

 

[Falcinho]

walking and standing is some of the best shield pressure. I learned this from soap's sheik.

And doing the turnaround animations repeatedly often makes your enemy do sth stupid ^_^

 

[JBM falcon08]

Someone either explain to me what shield DI is or quote magus's post.

please.

 

[Teczer0]

Shield DI is pretty much what it sounds like.

Using DI while you are in your shield being hit by an attack.

It works pretty similarly to regular SDI and DI. You have to input the direction during the freeze frames when you get hit with your shield up.

Not sure if you can Smash Shield DI though.

 

[IrArby]

You should be able to unless SDI and Smash DI are different things. Dark Sonic just mentioned it.

 

[Keblerelf]

how do i improve my spacing with marth? Do i just need more experience with him or is there something else?

 

[Miggz]

how do i improve my spacing with marth? Do i just need more experience with him or is there something else?

You need to use the C stick for all of your aerials, such as your fairs, dairs, uairs, and bairs. The reason you have to use the C stick versus analog and A button because by using the analog stick you can't control Marth's movement in the air when you are using it do actually do the aerial. So instead, you jump with with X/Y then you start holding back on the analog stick (this stops Marth from moving forward as you jump) then you use your C stick to execute your aerial.

 

[IrArby]

Most of the time I don't neccesarily try and hit with a fair. I usually try to us it defensively until it does hit and punish it. Cactuar made a really good explanation about his spacing approach including Far Spacing (Fsmsh range) and Near Spacing where your trying to force mistakes. If I can find it I'll post it.

 

[ComboTurtle]

Shield DI is pretty much what it sounds like.

Using DI while you are in your shield being hit by an attack.

It works pretty similarly to regular SDI and DI. You have to input the direction during the freeze frames when you get hit with your shield up.

Not sure if you can Smash Shield DI though.

applications include being pushed far enough away so that falco cant grab u out of his shine? or fox? or even far enough so u can grab without being shined? still confused a bit..

you shield, you get hit and then you di?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Right. You can smash DI during shieldhit-lag (not shield stun).

I wasn't aware there was a difference between the two.

Also, IrAby, that'd be sweet if you could repost that.

EDIT: I believe Shield DI is just using Smash DI and ASDI while in shield. I'm pretty sure you can't trajectory DI.

 

[Teczer0]

applications include being pushed far enough away so that falco cant grab u out of his shine? or fox? or even far enough so u can grab without being shined? still confused a bit..

you shield, you get hit and then you di?

Yea the most used example Magus used to explain its amazingness was against Falco's shine. You can also shield DI attacks toward your opponent. That prevents you from moving back too far, which can aid in shieldgrabbing for instance.

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. Shield DI can be used when your shield gets hit.

In other words, you put up your shield. Then your shield gets hit. Momentarily after your shield gets hit you can input directions to shield DI.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

yeah its like...in shield DI

not like..hold shield to DI...

 

[Teczer0]

yeah its like...in shield DI

not like..hold shield to DI...

What this genius said.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

tec0

nipah!

 

[Dark Sonic]

I wasn't aware there was a difference between the two.

Also, IrAby, that'd be sweet if you could repost that.

EDIT: I believe Shield DI is just using Smash DI and ASDI while in shield. I'm pretty sure you can't trajectory DI.

Shield hitlag is when the hitlag of the attack when it hits your shield

Shield stun is the time period after the attack where your character is unable to move.

@Edit: correct.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Hm. Interesting. Do you know if Phanna's shieldstun/hitlag list lists shieldlag or shieldstun?

 

[Cosmo!]

can I assume SDI up doesnt work while in shield? only left/right? orrrr.....

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I would guess so...

 

[Dark Sonic]

can I assume SDI up doesnt work while in shield? only left/right? orrrr.....

I'd assume so. Down doesn't work when you're grounded, and it makes sense that you wouldn't be able to SDI up while you're shielding, but I don't think anyone's ever really tested it (though I think the result would be pretty obvious)

 

[IrArby]

I look for Cactuar's quote but no guarantees. If I were on my PC at home I could pull it up instantly for you guys but as I'm at school . . .

I think I may have even printed it out along with another long quote by Cort talking about camping spacies near the ledge and gimping them. Wish me luck.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

For the Magus quotes just look in my sig.

I dunno what you mean by cactus quote, but here's one about SDI'ing falco's lasers lol:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6435561#post6435561

And I'm pretty sure cort gimping strats are in this thread somewhere. No wait, found it:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=3735231&postcount=1501

 

[DtJ Jungle]

wow. ****in cactuar. too many movement tricksies

 

[IrArby]

Witchking: The other was you asking Cactuar about his general strategy for playing Marth. You said something to the effect of " do you just throw out safe moves until you can punish them" and he talks in depth about his two spacings the first being Far Spacing (right around Fsmash range) and the second spacing is Near Spacing (where you actively pressuring them into trapping themselves say in their shield which limits their options obviously).

I'm currently looking through his thread trying to find it as I "think" thats where you asked it but I'm not positive so maybe I'm just wasting time. Oh well.

EDIT: FOUND IT! Cactuar's thread page 32!

Also, so this isn't spam, I have a question for Cactuar:

What kind of goal to help you win do you have during the match? Like are you trying to force the opponent to make mistakes and then **** them for it, or are you just throwing out safe approaches and if it works, you kill them?

Sometimes I'm just not sure what I'm really supposed to be doing in a match before I hit them.

I've been told that I control space on the stage to the point that people feel that they are near or off the edge almost the entire match.

My spacing strategy is to put the opponent into my effective range, which is slightly further than tipper distance (call this Far Spacing), then when attacking, that effective range changes to try and keep the person at slightly less than tipper distance (Close Spacing).

Using the Far Spacing, your primary objective is to bait the opponent. My biggest tool for baiting is approaching the opponent until I am at the Far Spacing, then stopping. A still opponent is extremely indimidating, and will generally force the other person into action. From there, it's all about knowing how to punish (reaction). Throwing out safe moves, such as sh back and fair, is included in Far Spacing.

With Close Spacing, the primary objective changes to pressuring your opponent until they trap themselves in a few different ways. The first trap is shielding. If you start pushing your opponent and they shield, you have the advantage. You know their options are limited to either jumping out of shield into attack, shield grabbing, dodging, rolling. If they don't use one of these options, their shield will deteriorate and you will have attack advantage as you can easily shield stab or even shield break (nb) if their reaction speed fails them. When they shield, I usually do one of three things, dependent on my current spacing. If I am already aerial, I will choose to either float back into perfect fsmash tipper range, land and wait, or float forward, late fair their shield, then dash through. With good timing (near frame perfect), you can not be shield grabbed, and the opponent will likely try, leaving them at a huge frame disadvantage, and allowing you to punish them however you please. At high level play, it's rare that someone will just run straight and grab as that is why people spot dodge. Dash dance in to grab range to pressure the dodge, back out and then in for the grab.

If you get used to these two spacings, it also becomes much easier to tech chase pretty much anything.


I describe this game, and most fighting games for that matter, as having two main factors. The first is the push and pull game. This is that time when you are approaching and baiting your opponent, waiting for each other to mess up. The second is the punishment game. Low level players will only be able to really punish with individual hits, but at the highest levels, those little gaps that you create using the push and pull game lead into death combos.

The only other parts of smash that are different from most fighting games are the edgeguarding and recovery games, as they don't really fall under either of those catagories.

I feel really good about myself now. Hope you all enjoy.

 

[Wschl]

just to be sure :
Which stages should i ban as a Marth player.
Platform stages are fine always for marth,so is fd. Which stage, which is often picked, should i ban then?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Ban either a counterpick stage or Dreamland against most characters. Marth is good on all neutrals except for Dreamland and kind of sucks on counterpick stages, so you're going to get screwed over on your opponent's counter anyway.

@IrArby: Oooh I remember asking him that, in fact I have the link to the post on my computer lol.

 

[IrArby]

Yea same here but on my PC at home. I saved that and Corts' gimping advice in a word document. Scrolling through parts of the thread, I found other good advice all over the place. Just reading posts by Cactuar, Cort, and a few others will give you lots of knowledge about random, useful, less widely published things.

 

[Havokbringer]

Cactuar is always good at giving advice.

 

[Miggz]

That he does. XD

 

[soap]

Is Far spacing basically camping? waiting for them come in

 

[JonaDiaper]

i wouldnt say so, camping is more going to an opposite side of a stage..or as far away as possible..
cactuar's description of far spacing is just being smart...camping is just ********

 

[soap]

not the other side of the stage

but u r chilling just outside tipper range and jumping back. It seems like just defensive spacing