Marth Q&A-Ask your questions here!!

[Emblem Lord]

This thread was inspired by Silent Wolf's thread in the Fox forums. His thread was about answering common Fox questions so that people would no longer post threads asking the same old questions. Well , now I'm doing the same thing in an effort to clean up the Marth Forum. This thread is all about helping the community help itself.

If you have a question, post it in this thread and I will answer it the best of my ability. Other knowledgeable Marth players are more then welcome to answer questions as well. Before answering questions, please be sure that you know what you are talking about. Misinformation will be corrected, either by myself or other knowledgebale players of course. If the answer to a question can be found in another thread, then a link to that thread will posted.

Let's all do our part in keeping unneccessary threads from being posted again and again. The Marth community should all help one another to understand Marth better. This way the same old threads won't have to keep popping up.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

ok I'll start this off by asking a question:

In marth dittos, when I am hanging on the ledge and need to get back on stage, what are my options considering when I am under 100% and when I am over 100%? If I am under 100% and get up by pressing over or up, then I risk being either dtilted or grabbed and thrown off again, or fsmashed which pushes me back to the edge. If I am under 100% and get up by rolling, I am subject to getting fsmashed or again grabbed and thrown off. If I get up by hopping up and wavedashing or just jumping onto the stage, then I am subject to getting dtilted or hit by any other attack and losing my jump. If I get up by attacking, then it will get shielded or I'll get fsmashed. I can't hit the edgeguarding marth with a fair or nair from the ledge because they are either too far away or will shield it. When I am over 100%, I get up to the ledge more slowly and it seems my invincibility frames are shorter and I am vulnerable during part of my rise to the stage. In addition, if I get dtilted it becomes harder to return to the stage. How should I get back up onto the stage? I'm going to watch some vids of Ken vs Azen to see how they do it.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Great idea! *Claps* you've made plenty of mini guides and you still keep contributing! Thanks.

 

[dark-war-cloud]

ok, well what move of marths has the most lag?

 

[Brightside6382]

ok I'll start this off by asking a question:

In marth dittos, when I am hanging on the ledge and need to get back on stage, what are my options considering when I am under 100% and when I am over 100%? If I am under 100% and get up by pressing over or up, then I risk being either dtilted or grabbed and thrown off again, or fsmashed which pushes me back to the edge. If I am under 100% and get up by rolling, I am subject to getting fsmashed or again grabbed and thrown off. If I get up by hopping up and wavedashing or just jumping onto the stage, then I am subject to getting dtilted or hit by any other attack and losing my jump. If I get up by attacking, then it will get shielded or I'll get fsmashed. I can't hit the edgeguarding marth with a fair or nair from the ledge because they are either too far away or will shield it. When I am over 100%, I get up to the ledge more slowly and it seems my invincibility frames are shorter and I am vulnerable during part of my rise to the stage. In addition, if I get dtilted it becomes harder to return to the stage. How should I get back up onto the stage? I'm going to watch some vids of Ken vs Azen to see how they do it.

You pretty much just answered ur own question. You know what Marth can/cant do off the edge its up to your own judgment. There is no 100% flawless way to get back on all you can really do is mix it up and do what fits the situation best.

ok, well what move of marths has the most lag?

Imma go off on a limb and say D-smash or F-smash. (I'd go with D-smash since the move sucks anyways)

 

[tyjets212]

How do I practice short hopping with Marth? I have mastered the shffl, except for the "sh" part.

Also, I have seen on videos where Marth falls of an edge, bairs the opponent and recovers back onto stage. Any advice on how to successfully execute that?

 

[Emblem Lord]

tyjets212: There is no sure fire method my friend. Just keep praticing and you'll get it. Remember it's not how hard you hit the button, it's how long your finger is actually on the button that determines whether or not you short hop. Try to quickly get your finger off of the button after hitting it.

As for ledge dropped aerials, well there are several ways of doing this. If you hit down while you are on a ledge you will fast fall. If you hit back on the ledge you will just drop at his normal falling speed. I usually just hit back so I fall at Marth's normal speed. Then just use the C-stick for the bair. Then after you hit your opponent quickly jump and then use his Up B to recover. Or you could use your jump to head out and attack your opponent if they are farther away. So you would ledge drop, jump back and bair. As soon as Marth comes out of the attack animation, use his Up B to recover. You'll have to angle your Up B to make it back though. To angle his Up B just tilt the analog stick to the upper left or the upper right as soon as you initiate his Up B.

 

[Razgriz]

I like this thread. First Marth question:

I play a lot of Marth dittos. When edge-teching, I've been told that I have to smash DI to tech the f-smash because it sends you directly away from the edge, but I've found that I can just hug the wall on the way up and rely on ASDI to nail the tech, even on battlefield (tough to hug that corner, but easier than SDI.) I regularly edge-tech 4 or 5 times in a row like this. However, after the fourth or fifth time, I can't seem to edgetech again. I know that I've honed my edge-teching reflexes to the point where I'm consistent and don't mess up. The 20-frame window is really easy to nail repeatedly, especialy with Marth's recovery, where you just press L right after you up-B. So here's the question: Why don't I just keep edge-teching until doomsday? I know I'm not messing up. Is there a specific % where ASDI just ceases to work? Why do I die? If you don't want to take my word that I don't mess up, then why don't we see pros who've honed their melee reflexes to a razor's edge keep teching over and over again?

I know this isn't a specifically Marth question, but I wanted to be specific about the situation I presented (Marth's F-smash)/ Marth's easy-to-aim recovery.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The only logical explanation I can give is that most likely you do mess up sooner or later with out realizing it. Humans do make errors. It happens. Also I think maybe once you hit a certain percent that smash DI would work better then just ASDI, but that's just a guess.

Honestly, this is somewhat of a tough question. I really think that it's just human error though. I mean if you are nervous and you are trying to recover, it stand to reason that sooner or later you will mess up.

 

[Zankoku]

It might be that eventually whatever you're getting hit with is strong enough that the ASDI doesn't pull you back to the stage far enough and you really do need SDI to get close enough to the stage and tech.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

You pretty much just answered ur own question. You know what Marth can/cant do off the edge its up to your own judgment. There is no 100% flawless way to get back on all you can really do is mix it up and do what fits the situation best.

I guess. :| I'll just try to do a few drops off the ledge to vary it up.

Also, pressing down on the control stick when marth is on the ledge does not necessarily make him fast fall. Tilting down will not fast fall; smashing down will. To be on the safe side though, it might be easier to press to the side.

I thought the guy with the bair question was wondering how to wavedash or waveland off the stage and do a bair without grabbing onto the ledge. Then I realized he meant perform a bair from the ledge.

I guess I really don't have any questions. I just need to clarify with Husband or Chu, etc whether I am properly fast ledge grabbing (wavedash off stage to the ledge and press down and toward the stage to grab quickly). I just seem so slow compared to M2K.

This isn't a question, but I recently learned to air dodge to the ground of a platform when jumping above it to cut down on waiting for my character to fall to the platform. It makes marth/fox/falco/sheik super fast and able to maneuver during those beginning invincibility frames your opponent gets when they die. It's something many people do not know about and use. Sure it seems like most people would know about it due to wavelanding, but I for one never considered using it for that purpose until recently when experimenting against cpus. I realized that I was doing something I've seen in vids on-line and it all clicked.

 

[Zankoku]

This isn't a question, but I recently learned to air dodge to the ground of a platform when jumping above it to cut down on waiting for my character to fall to the platform. It makes marth/fox/falco/sheik super fast and able to maneuver during those beginning invincibility frames your opponent gets when they die. It's something many people do not know about and use. Sure it seems like most people would know about it due to wavelanding, but I for one never considered using it for that purpose until recently when experimenting against cpus. I realized that I was doing something I've seen in vids on-line and it all clicked.

I thought what you just described is wavelanding, kinda like how triangle-jumping is a precursor to wavedashing.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

I thought what you just described is wavelanding, kinda like how triangle-jumping is a precursor to wavedashing.

Yes, except that it is wavelanding in place. What I am describing makes your character appear incredibly fast moving along platforms.

 

[Emblem Lord]

UMBC Smasher: The technique you described has a name. I think it's called platform dashing or something. I forget at the moment. And yes it is a known technique. BTW there is no special trick to wavedashing to ledge grab. Just wave dash off then tap down to fast fall and grab the ledge.

Edit: If it's in place then that's just landing with an air dodge. Nothing special.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

UMBC Smasher: The technique you described has a name. I think it's called platform dashing or something. I forget at the moment. And yes it is a known technique. BTW there is no special trick to wavedashing to ledge grab. Just wave dash off then tap down to fast fall and grab the ledge.

Edit: If it's in place then that's just landing with an air dodge. Nothing special.

I've known about fast falling to decrease the time till grabbing the ledge for a while. Husband said down and in, like there is an extra part in addition to fast falling. I'll have to ask M2K on dc++ since he is the technical guru of Smash.
What I am doing just doesn't seem as fast as what Husband and M2K did. No, I'm positive it's not as fast. There is something beyond just fast falling.

 

[Emblem Lord]

DrgSupergogeta: Ledge grabbing with marth is just wavedashing off the side then fast falling correct?
DrgSupergogeta: nothing special to it right?
OOVideoGameGodOO: ledge grabbing i dont use such a term
DrgSupergogeta: lol..but u know what i mean..thats how its done right?
DrgSupergogeta: is there anything more it to speed it up besides fast falling?
OOVideoGameGodOO: long WD and fast fall
OOVideoGameGodOO: thats all you can do
OOVideoGameGodOO: thats plenty
DrgSupergogeta: long? has to be long?
DrgSupergogeta: it cant be a short wavedash?
OOVideoGameGodOO: well
OOVideoGameGodOO: long ones
OOVideoGameGodOO: mean its slightly faster
OOVideoGameGodOO: obviously
DrgSupergogeta: talk to me like i undertand nothing ok. lol. why is it faster?
OOVideoGameGodOO: cuz its longer
OOVideoGameGodOO: making it faster
OOVideoGameGodOO: its the same period of time
OOVideoGameGodOO: the whole process
OOVideoGameGodOO: landing air dodge = 10 frames lag
OOVideoGameGodOO: no matter what
OOVideoGameGodOO: ALWAYS
OOVideoGameGodOO: with every character in the game
OOVideoGameGodOO: i tested them all separately
OOVideoGameGodOO: its faster
OOVideoGameGodOO: brb
OOVideoGameGodOO: i hvae like 25 IMs open
DrgSupergogeta: k


There you go. Straight from M2K himself. All you can do is WD to fast fall. Make sure to FF as soon as Marth's body is off the ledge. Try long WDing to FF like M2K says for better results.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

Cool. I think I need to fast fall sooner then. I'll need Husband to clarify as well, cause it would have been easier if he had just told me to fast fall and let go in order to grab the ledge faster.

Is there any use for marth's up B from the ledge? It works like fox's firefox next to the ledge, except it's necessary to quickly reverse it in order to up B toward the stage. I don't see the pros using it so I doubt it, but just wondering.

 

[Emblem Lord]

What do you mean? Do you mean would you use this to attack? I never would. It leaves him far too vulnerable.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

What do you mean? Do you mean would you use this to attack? I never would. It leaves him far too vulnerable.

Perhaps, but the dolphin slash in general leaves marth vulnerable and yet people discovered a use for it. This is simply a dolphin slash performed at the ledge. Would it hit someone while recovering if they are behind marth?

 

[Emblem Lord]

First Marth would let go of the ldge then he would dolphin slash. If his opponent is close enough then they would just grab the ledge as soon as he let's go. The dolphin slash isn't fast enough.

If they are farther away it would just be better if he did a ledge dropped bair.

 

[ArcNatural]

Something I have always been curious about, what has faster lag time, getting hit with falco's laser and grabbing or shielding the laser then grabbing? I'm basically curious to know if the shield lag is worse than the laser lag itself.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The shield lag definitely isn't worse. After shielding a laser you can act immediately. Most likely the shield stun is only 1 or 2 frames. If you get hit by a laser, then you will flinch and be unable to act for a short period of time. The stun is definitely longer when you take a hit from a laser.

 

[FrostByte]

For the ledge grab, I'm pretty sure there's frames where Marth goes into dropping animation before he actually reaches the edge, or so it seems. That's the time when you press down.

Which part of Marth's Dsmash has the most horizontal knockback? And which part of the Dolphin slash (excluding the sweetspot) has the most horizontal knockback?

 

[Emblem Lord]

The D-smash sweetspot has vertical knockback not horizontal. I'm going to assume that a non-tippered d-smash will give horizontal knockback, but I haven't really though about it.

As for the Dolphin slash, you answered your own question. It's the sweet spot. Non-sweetspot hits of his Dolphin slash have some horizontal knockback, but not really enough worh mentioning. Hitting with the tip of the blade seems to yield moderate horizontal knockback though. This isn't a sweetspot tip BTW for those of you that don't know. Hitting with the tip of the blade for Marth's Dolphin Slash isn't his sweetspot. The sweetspot is right next to Marth in the opening frames of his Dolphin Slash.

 

[Nick Nasty]

I know this probably have been answered before, but when you are chaingrabbing a space animal how do you get to them in time when they DI just a little bit out of Marth's grab range? I tried to do a dash JC grab, but I still can't grab them. I would also like to know if there is a definite way of getting a 0-death on a space animal by chaingrabbing? I've been watching the Ken vs Bombsoldier matches many times recently, but I still don't understand how Ken could just 0-death Bombsoldier with such effecientcy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

When a space animal DI's slightly then it's just all about timing. JC dash should do it. You just have to be fast enough. Sometimes it may even look like you can't reach them, but you may not even have to JC grab. It may be enough to just walk over a little a grab. Just try to get the timing down and understand the spacing better.

Also CGing alone into an f-smash won't take down a good space animal. There was alot of hoopla over Bombsoldier when he arrived on the scene. He was pretty much an unknown, much like Ken was when he first hit the scene. Bombsoldier was able to take out top pros with his Falco just through insane combos, edge guarding and laser usage. Alot of people thought it was unfair and showed just how cheap Falco really is. Anyway, alot of people that saw Bombosoldier play said he had really sucky DI, so that may be why he got CGed to death so many times.

There are combos that will end in a space animals death with Marth, regardless of DI. They usually involve chaing grabbing until around the high 30%'s then 1 or 2 u-tilts. From there Marth can shuffled uairs. Then go for a tippered f-smash. You can also do fairs into an f-smash after the utilts. What you do will vary greatly on thier DI. Experiment in practice mode to get a feel for it. You can also talk to M2K because he is really good with percents and knowing when to move into different phases of comboing.

 

[Husband]

How do I practice short hopping with Marth? I have mastered the shffl, except for the "sh" part.

Also, I have seen on videos where Marth falls of an edge, bairs the opponent and recovers back onto stage. Any advice on how to successfully execute that?

You have to just go to FD in training mode (so the comp doesnt attack you) and just SH. Dont swing your sword and dont even move. Just SH.

After doing that for 20 min (I know it sounds like a lot) start running and SH so now you just upgraded to running back and forward with SH. 20 min later start Fast Falling SH while running. After that you can then start swinging, SH, Running with the FF. You learn each step at a time then put them all together.

Keep in mind that its not how lightly you hit the jump botton. You can hit it as hard as you want, its about how long you hold it down for. So when hitting x or y (Not up on the j-stick) think about speed, not softness

 

[FrostByte]

The non-sweetspotted dolphin slash is good for catching your opponent off guard if they're too high for any of his aerials/shield breaker to hit them. The vertical range is second only to Pikashu's thunder.

It also gets your opponent into the tumble animation, which is good if they don't have a second jump, there is no risk of getting hit, unlike a bair and can set up for an easy edgeguard against some characters. That's why I wanted to know of different points during his up-b have different amounts of knockback.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm fairly certain that that the knockback of a non-sweetspotted Dolphin Slash is the same on any part of the sword.

I wouldn't Dolphin Slash because Marth takes his time recovering, and by that time his opponent will probably be back on the ledge or the stage.

 

[Razgriz]

The only logical explanation I can give is that most likely you do mess up sooner or later with out realizing it. Humans do make errors. It happens. Also I think maybe once you hit a certain percent that smash DI would work better then just ASDI, but that's just a guess.

Honestly, this is somewhat of a tough question. I really think that it's just human error though. I mean if you are nervous and you are trying to recover, it stand to reason that sooner or later you will mess up.

Thx for the input EL. I definitely account for the possibility that I'm messing up, however, after seeing the same thing happen to Korius, and after experiencing the same problem in hundreds of Marth dittos in a relaxed, casual environment, I find it difficult to believe that I'm just getting nervous and messing up around the fourth or fifth time every single time. Based on my knowledge of the mechanics of the game, ASDI doesn't stop working at higher percents, and if I'm hugging the wall it should be enough to position me for the tech. I encourage you to try this yourself. Just get a friend to use Marth's F-smash on you and tech it with ASDI. It's really easy to do. If you manage to tech 7 or 8 times in a row then you can call me crazy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Then the only explanation is that the programmers may have input a code that causes edge teching to stop working after a certain amount of attempts OR ASDI simply doesn't cut it once you hit a certain percent.

 

[Cactuar]

1) You are hitting L (or R) too soon after doing the previous tech. You cannot perform 2 techs in a row as it prevents any tech input for 2 seconds(I think it's 2 seconds ) after a previous tech.

2) Your up-b spacing gets messed up after a few attempts.

3) They hit you late, you are above any available wall to tech on.

4) They hit you early, you didn't tech in time.

5) You just messed up.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thanks Cactuar. Listen to him. He knows the deal.

lol.

A serious post for once.

 

[Sensei]

I have a question...
Why is everybody using Marth nowadays? It used to be sheik (i think), but now its this dude. What is the world coming to?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Get out now. k thnx. ^_^

 

[JesiahTEG]

lol I have a few ?'s.

1. Why do so many ppl make new threads for questions that can be answered simply, even though there is a thread already dedicated to that?

2. Do the mods watch this forum? I've never seen them interject once, or close any of the three threads that have been started pointlessly in the past day or two. The Marth tier thread was begged to be closed like 5 times and no mods even acknowledged the desperate pleas for the closing of the thread. Do the mods not care about poor Marth anymore?

 

[Dark Sonic]

I thought the wait time in between techs was 40 frames. 2 seconds is an unreasonably long time.

 

[Cactuar]

It might be 40 seconds. I may have even said it was 40 seconds in another thread.

Although I think that was in reference to spamming the L-button to tech something. This is the delay before being able to tech again, not the delay from a failed tech.

 

[Silver Sytos]

What are good approaches for marth at low, mid, and high %'s?

 

[Sensei]

Dash Dance grab. Never attack. If you attack, you lose. - M2K advice