Marth Q&A-Ask your questions here!!

[Dark Sonic]

Nick Nasty: It's called the Ken combo because a bunch of people wanted to credit it to somebody since it's a widely used technique. We all just sort of agreed to call it that.

Perfect Hero: The most effective edgeguard I know of against Shiek is to simply hang on the ledge right until after Shiek explodes in her Up B. Then get up (by pressing foward on the control stick). If she went for the ledge then she just got edgehogged and your done. If she went above the ledge to try to fall down to it then just push her away from the stage before she falls back down. If she went for the stage then she'll be behind you and you'll have to dash or wavedash behind her so that you can push her off the stage again. I said that you could dash because I can pivot and I find that I have a lot more leeway since pivoting is much faster than a wave dash to smash. If I can't space a F-smash in her lag because I won't make it in time then I just get really close and D-smash or Up B to send her back off the edge.

D-tilt is a better approach than the F-tilt because it has much less lag and only a little less range so it's much harder to punish. F-tilt does make a great defensive attack though.

 

[Randizzle]

I've recently discovered Zelda to be a surprisingly difficult matchup from playing the Zelda of one of the top smashers in my state. I believe that Marth still has a some advantage simply because of how easily Zelda falls into combos after getting hit, but it is still a surprisingly tough matchup for me (although it may partially be due to the fact that I'm just not familiar with it well enough). What are some useful tactics for this matchup?

 

[hilaxial]

here's a newb question, but i really need help with this:
is there any reliable way to space the tip? esp. on the fsmash, I'm almost always hitting it too close to the middle to do any real damage. I had a friend tell my to just try and keep my distance, but then i usually whiff short.

 

[Emblem Lord]

hilaxial: Practice and more practice. There is no secret really. The more you play, the more it will become second nature to space out your attacks. That's all I can really say. Maybe another Marth has more tips for you.

Randizzle: Know your spacing. Be aware that her fairs and bairs out range your fairs. So knowing that, dont try to spam aerial appraoches. Try to stick to the ground a little more. Her grab is very slow. If you time it right you can grab her right after you do an aerial and it is shielded. Her shield grab can't beat your grab. Still, it's been awhile since I played a Zelda, can someone else confirm my last statement? Anyway, if you are too aggressive with your fairs or you rush in foolishly, you will get kicked. Alot. Play smart. Camp her with dashing dancing. Her projectile sucks so don't sorry about that. Approach her with d-tilts and JC grabs for the most part. If you whiff the d-tilt you should dash away, or roll away. If you shield a kick, then your actions will change depending on her spacing and her position in the air. If she did a kick at the peak of her short hop, if you try to shield grab, you will probably just eat another kick. Shield that second kick, then try to shield grab or JC SH double fair into a combo. When you grab throw forwards or backwards to mess with thier DI. Chase her with fairs after throws. That should be ok to start you off with. I would post more, but I gotta get ready for work.

 

[Spacecadet]

I had a question regarding a marth vs samus match. My friend and I play on a relatively regular basis, and I while I'm comboing him, he'll drop a mine. Now this is what my question is. Because I'm usually airborne when this happens, this interrupts my combo and lets him start up his own. Is there anything in particular I can do to avoid this?

Also, when exactly should I start the first Fair in a shorthopped double fair? This seems to have baffled me. Thanks for your time.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Spacecadet: Start the first fair in sh double fairs ASAP. If Samus is laying bombs in between our combos then something is wrong. The stun time on your attacks should be great enough to let you get another hit in before she can do that. You should work on your timing. But bombs shouldn't effect Marth all that much anyway if he is spacing out his attacks. His sword will cut right through them if you space your attacks out correctly.

 

[Perfect Hero]

When should I replace Fair with Uair in Shdf. This is assuming the first fair tippers of course.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Perfect Hero: I would usually do that for fast fallers when you want to set up for a grab or an u-tilt.

 

[Aesir]

Okay this is sort of a prefrence issue really, should I try just c-sticking my aerials or stick with using the control stick? >_> last time I tried the c-stick it felt to weird.

probably answering my own question but meh lol.

also when you mis space an aerial is there anyway to not eat a grab or any other action they might take? this is a common issue with me. >_>

 

[Emblem Lord]

C-stick aerials so DI doesn't effect your spacing. I only use the A button and the control stick for the first fair in short hop double fairs.

 

[dude225]

i want to take a second and say thank you emblem lord for the effort you are putting forth on this forum, its really appreciated, at least with me.

now for my question. when someone shields a shffl of mine, what do you think the best choice of action would be? i know of the wavelanding backwards, spot dodging, and jumping, but all this comes only with a fair. What choices do i have with a shffl'd nair? or should i only use that when im sure to hit? is there anything i can do to stay on the offensive after a shffl of mine gets shielded? perhaps a dancing blade or something? i dont know, but if you can answer even a part of this question i would be grateful.

once again, thank you for the help, and im glad this thread has been made.

 

[balladechina212]

It's possible to land the nair behind your opponent's shield, but even that won't keep you from trouble. And you're in even more trouble if you land in front of their shield. If you've l-cancelled, maybe you can sidestep, but that won't always work. It basically depends on your opponent's reaction time. If you know he's going to grab, you can attempt to dash past him IMMEDIATELY after you land and wait for him to miss a grab; then, turn around and grab him. I see Ken and Azen do this a lot.

 

[Emblem Lord]

dude225: Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it. I'm just trying to do my part for the community. Alot of high level knowledgeable players horde knowledge and don't share what they know with the masses. I'm just trying to change that and give something back to my community.

When someone shields a shuffle fair, usually I do one of several things. I dash away and go into dash dancing. I can roll away or spot dodge. And I can dash past my opponent and then turn around and grab. This is called a pivot grab. You have the same choices with a shuffled nair. If you want to stay aggressive thena pivot grab is what you are looking for.

For a more in depth look at your options after shielded attacks you should check out this link.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=102436

 

[Perfect Hero]

Character Specific Questions:
How should I approach a Fox, Sheik, and Falco?
Fox-I mainly dashdance grab or shuffl Nair towards him or Shdf.
Sheik-I mainly space my Fair to tipper or try to stay out of grab range.
Falco-I mainly move slowly towards Falco and Powershield his lasers untill I'm close and ftilt.

So I'm wondering if there are other effective approaches towards them or better than what I'm doing now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

For Fox amd Shiek I usually go with dash dancing into JC grabs, dashing dancing and wavedashing into d-tilts, shuffled fairs, and the occasional short hop double aerial.

With Falco you can check out this thread for different approach methods.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=102497

 

[JesiahTEG]

ok, I have a question I NEED answered. When someone is in angelic mode and they drop down, they are invincible. 99% of matches I see ppl run away and avoid the invincible person until they are not invincible. This is not the case with Ken. Ken runs up to them and spot dodges, rolls, shields. He stays real close. wtf is he doing? My friend told me he's trying to gain a frame advantage, but I dont know what that is. what's going on here?

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol. Well frame advantage is when one character is able to act before another. It occurs after someone attacks and the attack either hits or is blocked. Usually in fighting games when you block an attack, the attacker is at a disadvantage. When an attack hits, then the attacker is at an advantage. There are exceptions to this rule. Attacks that are considered safe on block are attacks that leave the attacker at advantage even when they are blocked. Marth's d-tilt is one such attack I believe. Even when it's blocked he can still act before his opponent.

That said, Ken is not trying to get frame advantage IMO. How can he? His opponent is invincible. Most likely he is just trying to stay in his opponents face so he can attack when the invinciblity wears off and he won't put himself in a crappy position by trying to run away too much. That's just my take on things though.

 

[JesiahTEG]

You said he doesn't want to put himself in crappy position, so he stays close to his opponent. I guess I can see what your saying...But Marth is generally in better position when he's farther away... Ugh, this is so annoying. Anyone else have any ideas?

Btw good job with this thread Emblem Lord. I think it's working out pretty well.

 

[Imperial Wraith]

Perhaps it's to keep his opponent off balance? For instance, the invincibilty you get after death could cause some people to play a little more recklessly for its duration (They're invincible, why not?), and so when the invincibility ends, they could be in a position that Ken could easily abuse.

Don't take my word on it though, it's probably a combination of loads of factors.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I think that's the general idea...To abuse recklessness...but I'm trying to think of a more specific answer as to why he does it. Thanks though.

 

[balladechina212]

Most of the time, Falco, Fox, and Sheik will approach you. Marth is generally a defensive character because of his range and should not approach those characters. Only if they're laser/needle camping do you need to worry about approaching.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well, he may also do it just to throw his opponents off. Most people don't expect you to stay in thier face when they're invincible.

 

[Perfect Hero]

I find in most of the matches with Kdj, Ken stayed on the ledge to wait out on the invincibility. Maybe if he were to go away, he'd be in a more defensive position and will eat out his opponents attacks. If he stayed close, he'd keep the pressure on.

Oh, and just to clarify, Safe Hits on Block do give frame advantage to the Blocker but it is not enough of an advantage to punish with a throw. An example would be the Shield Grab. It punishes laggy attacks and Shuffling is like using only Safe Hits on Block(Which is recommended in most fighting games).

New Question:
What are the effective options I have after rolling away from a Dair --> Shine?

 

[balladechina212]

Well, if you have successfully avoided a space animal's shine, you know they are going to do one of two things to eliminate lag: jump out of the shine or wavedash from the shine. If they jump, hit them with a SHFFL nair. If they wavedash, predict their movement and grab them. You'll do even better if you predict which one they're going to do.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well, only Falcos really dair to shine and if a player rolls away from that then lasers will usually ensue.

Check out my thread on dealing with Falco's approach for tips on dealing with that.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=102497

After rolling away I would usually counter lasers if I expect them, dash attack, or JC grab.

 

[Silver Sytos]

JC grab? As in rush into them and grab after jumping to reduce lag? But at that point you would eat lasers, or just directly rushing in for a grab often leads to the falco spot dodging -> shine -> crazy hax combos.

I've been watching the BS vids and I've noticed that uptilt is good for hitting advancing falcos that jump into an aerial, and down tilt has some strange frames where it can actually hit the coming falco. Also jab-> downtilt-> grab at low percents.

It seemed that Ken was able to take control of the match through grabbing, though he got those grabs in a combination of shield grabbing and tech chasing. Ken was doing crazy dash dance/wavedash grabs, especially in his cg's. I think I noticed him throw falco up, then wavedash slightly forward to catch the falling falco again, or was that actually just a short dash forward? I get whooped by a really good falco, though I'm a decent marth myself. Is spot dodging an okay method to deal with those lasers? I've read your thread and it had great advice, though I don't think you mentioned this.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretend spot dodging doesn't exist when fighting Falcos. It will get you killed.

Rushing in and eating a laser can mess with Falco's timing. Jabbing or u-tilting between lasers is risky and really shouldn't be attempted too often.

Jab to d-tilt isn't very wise IMO. Jab has quite a bit of recovery time in comparison to d-tilt.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

As emblem lord said before, pretend his jab doesn't exist.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Ok, I have a question regarding my overall gameplay, but I dont want to make a new thread for it, even though it's not a simple question to answer.

I realized yesterday, my gameplay is actually kinda slow. I didnt realize it until I played a good sheik yesterday and got murdered pretty bad. I also think I realize the reason my gameplay is slow. I take a ton of time setting up my fairs so that they are perfectly spaced. Also, the sheik I played was constantly doing something. Needles, grabs, tilts, dash attacks, it was never just doing nothing. My marth does that though. The only thing I do when I am not attacking is DD'ing looking for grabs, which didnt work too well against this sheik. I think of other things to do to fill in the gaps of my gameplay so I'm not just standing there or DD'ing, just something to keep the pressure on...But I can't. I can't keep the pressure on with Fairs, because it takes me a while to get them perfectly spaced, and the Sheik can move in and out of my range fairly well, attacking me in between fairs or after I land. I dont even have time to dash away when I landed from a fair or a double fair. I have more questions, but they don't relate to the speed of my gameplay, so I'll ask later. But I guess my question is...How do I make my gameplay faster, so I'm always doing something useful and keeping the pressure on sheik, without sheik dd'ing/wd'ing in and out of my range and ****ing me up?

 

[FrostByte]

Jab to d-tilt isn't very wise IMO. Jab has quite a bit of recovery time in comparison to d-tilt.

But it covers a larger area than the dtilt. Dtilt to jab is a safer than 2 dtilts because
1) It reaches further, just in case the second dtilt doesnt hit
2)It will hit opponents who try to jump at you; for example a Marth ditto. You're edgeguarding against your opponent, who manages to get up and use his shield. If you dtilt, your opponent can SH fair over you.

 

[Sensei]

CC to fsmash against fair and say goodbye to the marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I would almost never do 2 d-tilts. Anyway, jab is good for stuffing approaches, but that's about it other then edge guarding vs spacies.

Sensei: CC whores are easy. Shuffled dairs and they go "WTF?!" Or just start spacing d-tilts.

 

[Sensei]

Good thing I'm not a wh0re. Oh wait, I am, lol.

 

[Baha]

hello im new here (well i've been reading for a long time tho)
I'm a Falco player that just decided to push his marth to the limit so i've been practicing a lot with it I'm really confident with it i have all the l-cancels working and all of that

My question is i've seen the Short hop doble fair but i have no idea how to pull it off Oo i don have enough time even if i jump pressing forward adn smash A i just dont do it. I want to pull it off with the c-stick because i like to use the c-stick to take care of my spacing and be able to hit with the tip all the time while staying out of range

anyway does the short hop doble fair even exist or am I imagining all this Oo.

Any tips? like when should i use it?

Also is there a way to chain grab Sheik? I was trying it yesterday but i didn't seem to be able to do it at all (any %) because my friend is really good at DI and tech

Thanks in advance :D

edit: just for clarification the 'ken combo' its just fair - jump - dair ?

 

[knightpraetor]

baha: these questions are general and answered in like 40 bazillion places on the forums...but since i asked these questions here once i guess i can answer them once...

it's hard to do both aerials with the C-stick, but it's possible..some people like to use Z..others use A...it's definitely easier with a button for the attack..c.urrently i use A for the first one and C-stick and DI the second one.

ken combo is as stated.

No chain grab on sheik

double fairs work better on opponents in the air..but you can use it as an approach if you're careful and space so as to not get shieldgrabbed..don't over use it as an approach or you'll get punished though


so i have a question of my own..i heard that short hop fair to dair is good against CC..so i'm trying to learn to use that..i for the most part have incorporated short dfair and fair to upair into my game..but i'm wondering ...can't marth CC the first fair and then attack? i figure a fsmash would be too slow..but i was wondering if a tilt could get out..anyways, i figured it's something to perfect..as i more often am dfair when they try to CC then just getting a basic shffl fair CCed.

 

[tyjets212]

What is tech chasing?

 

[captainlukey]

hey there i had a question: who can marth chaingrab... and rough percantages..

and do you realise this thread is gonna get so big it eats itself?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Tech chasing is just what it sounds like. Chasing someone down when they tech roll or tech. But it isn't limited to just that. You can attack people when they are still on the ground or after they do a "wake up" attack. It's just a term used to describe what you do when you punish someone when they are recovering from off of the ground.

I prefer the Tekken word for it. Okizeme. It means "The art of keeping your opponent on the floor." Other fighters would call it the wake up game.

 

[Dedu]

Marth CG against Space animals (I know this more than any other CG)
Fthrow: You can Fthrow them from 0% to grab again. This only works once and from 0%. If you do the fthrow again from >0%, they just fall to the ground instead, giving them the chance to escape from the CG if you don't predict their recovery from ground option right.
Uthrow:
From 0% to 30% (>=30% they can actually shine/jump out of it in the few frames after the hitstun before they get grabbed again.) From that point onwards, it can be risky to keep CGing them unless they don't know how to get out of it proficiently. Anyway, from 30% onwards, either you can keep utilting them and mixing it up with grabs. This works well into the 60%if you do it right. Then you cease CGing from that point onwards because the Space animals can DI or retaliate easily due to a missed grab/utilt. This is when you need to follow up with forward airs (usually) into Fsmash killer or Nairs. This is pretty much Marth's best weapon against the Space Animals and requires precision and accuracy in following the opponent's DI.

NOTE: Falcon cannot be CGed as he can jump out of it or stomp out of the throw. And if you try from 0% he falls too fast to be grabbed again.

With the floaties it depends on their weight and floatiness. They aren't grouped in the same category as the Space Animals regarding use of chain grabs.

Against Peach: Fthrow FTW from 0% till about 30% - 40%. From that point you should mix up ur throws with aerials (I often do SHDFs/SHF into another grab due to stun frames on peach)
Against Marth: PsuedoChainGrab. Note Marth can escape his grabs by DIing downwards after the throw. If he doesn't know this, then abuse the CG on Marth, which often can lead to easy kills (such as Fair to Dair/Fsmash/Charged B offstage)
Against Jiggs: Only works in first grab from 0% as Jiggs will always jump out of the fthrow or DI to avoid the Fsmash. The same applies to Kirby, but you'll see more Jigg players out there.
Luigi: Waaay too floaty to be CGed. Best option is to attack him in the air or ground depending on how he retaliates after being thrown.

Knightpraetor was right - you really can't CG sheik. Your best bet is to techchase her or set her up into a grab.

Techchasing is when the opponent falls to the ground or techs into a roll recovery move in which you predict/see happening and chase it to an attack/grab. It works with characters that have a fast dash speed (C Falcon, Fox, Sheik, Marth)

 

[trademark0013]

emblem time to bother u again ^_^

seriouslt tho, i've been leaving marth alone because I fall into familiar habits, fsmash and dtilt w/ grabs. shffl'd ariels of course, but i'm relying too much on those three other things. is there a "marth" way to avoid this, or is it just something i'm going to have to break myself?