Marth Q&A-Ask your questions here!!

[elvenarrow3000]

I personally rarely use the C-stick for shdf because if I'm using it, I've already hit them with something and they're in the air, so I don't really need to worry about shieldgrabs. When I do need to space though, I use A for the first one and C-stick for the other. It's pretty simple, and the movement from A to C-stick helps with the timing.

 

[Cyphe]

||Here is my question. More than likely it is a repeat question. ||

What is the frame time period for which you have to let go, so that Marth can short?

||Sorry if it is worded weirdly and if it is a repeat question, because I know that answering a question twice is annoying||

 

[Retroking2000]

umm ,

you mean short jump/hop,

??

 

[Cyphe]

umm ,

you mean short jump/hop,

??

Yeah, I forgot to type the "jump".

 

[Retroking2000]

just rapid flick X or Y ,

practice like 50 of them so you get muscle memory on that technique ,

hopefully you will get the sensitivity down to pull it off anytime

i will pray for you

 

[IrArby]

He's looking for a number of frames like Fox's is 4 and Falco's takes 6 or whatever. I think Fox's might be less too, but I definetly don't know Marth's. I wouldn't worry too much about how many frames it is though.

 

[SHDW23]

marth's jump start up is 5 frames in order to short hop you have to release the jump 2 frames before you're in the air (courtesy of a m2k thread). so that means you push the x/y/control-stick for 3 frames or less to short hop.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Three frames? That means you only have one frame of error for Fox/Sheik's shorthop?

Holy crap @_@

 

[Proverbs]

If you jump with Y, it's rather easy to nudge it with the hand in either direction.

Eugh...shorthopping with 'Y'. Yet another reason why I couldn't use Fox. They say to use 'Y' with him because it's closer to 'B' but I can't seem to shorthop with 'Y' at all.


Anyway, here's my question: How do you b-air to spike? I've heard of it before but haven't seen it as of yet. I can't figure out how you'd DI to do that. They seem to get pushed too far away for a double jump to reach them or put them in a good area and seem to be too high up to just DI left/right or fastfall to them and spike. Any tips (wow, I really hate that pun when it comes to Marth)?

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

Eugh...shorthopping with 'Y'. Yet another reason why I couldn't use Fox. They say to use 'Y' with him because it's closer to 'B' but I can't seem to shorthop with 'Y' at all.


Anyway, here's my question: How do you b-air to spike? I've heard of it before but haven't seen it as of yet. I can't figure out how you'd DI to do that. They seem to get pushed too far away for a double jump to reach them or put them in a good area and seem to be too high up to just DI left/right or fastfall to them and spike. Any tips (wow, I really hate that pun when it comes to Marth)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9uGsia-2Yw @ 1:55

Generally it is easiest to set up with Utilt, hit with a nonsweetspotted Bair close and judge the DI on the way down to sweetspot the Dair. This setup changes with diff characters and whether or not the existance of platforms are able to help this setup. The same would work against fox if you tech chase with a Utilt and he DI's slight toward the edge.

 

[Proverbs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9uGsia-2Yw @ 1:55

Generally it is easiest to set up with Utilt, hit with a nonsweetspotted Bair close and judge the DI on the way down to sweetspot the Dair. This setup changes with diff characters and whether or not the existance of platforms are able to help this setup. The same would work against fox if you tech chase with a Utilt and he DI's slight toward the edge.

I see it now. Thanks. I forgot that the b-air turned Marth around, too. That would have helped earlier XD

By the way, that guy plays Marth so weirdly. Not necessarily a bad thing, but weird. At one point the fight was incredibly...vertical o_O;;

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

I see it now. Thanks. I forgot that the b-air turned Marth around, too. That would have helped earlier XD

By the way, that guy plays Marth so weirdly. Not necessarily a bad thing, but weird. At one point the fight was incredibly...vertical o_O;;

No prob =P I know my marth style is a little strange to others. But it works for me =D

 

[Proverbs]

*shrug* whatever works.

On to another question, though. Where do you need to grab during pulsewalking with Marth to actually grab the opponent. I can't seem to get the grab early enough. I already have seen an example of it, it just seems hard to be able to get that to work.

Is the theory that you're technically grabbing slightly out of your grab range by grabbing while sliding, or just sliding into a position where you already could have grabbed them? Not sure how to effectively get this down T_T;;

That or pivot smashing.

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

*shrug* whatever works.

On to another question, though. Where do you need to grab during pulsewalking with Marth to actually grab the opponent. I can't seem to get the grab early enough. I already have seen an example of it, it just seems hard to be able to get that to work.

Is the theory that you're technically grabbing slightly out of your grab range by grabbing while sliding, or just sliding into a position where you already could have grabbed them? Not sure how to effectively get this down T_T;;

That or pivot smashing.

Just jump cancel grab so you don't slide (standing grab while running/dd'ing). jump+Z

At any point while moving around on the floor you can just do that so you can grab easier, and have less recovery frames if you miss so you don't get punished.

 

[Proverbs]

Er, you're technically standing if you use pulsewalking to grab. Pulsewalking is walking forward and wavedashing backward and you can grab from that. Example is at the very end of this fight.

I was asking where in the wavedash I'd grab.

And what about pivot smashing? Can anyone give an in depth explanation of it? I've already seen other explanations of it but it's just not making sense to me. Thanks.

 

[otg]

There is a thread about pivoting as we speak in the Melee Discussion board. Think about it like this, pivoting is attacking out of a dashdance. When you dd you maneuver left and right repeatedly, but while doing so there is a frame or two window where your character is technically in the standing animation.

During this standing animation you can do any attack, although Fsmash/ftilt and grabbing are the easiest. How I would practice it is just by paying attention to your finger movement as you DD. Let's say you want to Fsmash to the left, so DD a bit and as you move right for the last time, just as you would input the left to continue to DD hit A at the same time and you should get an Fsmash. If you make a mistake you'll get a dash attack instead.

Just practice and I'm sure you'll gain a feel for it.

 

[Proverbs]

There is a thread about pivoting as we speak in the Melee Discussion board. Think about it like this, pivoting is attacking out of a dashdance. When you dd you maneuver left and right repeatedly, but while doing so there is a frame or two window where your character is technically in the standing animation.

During this standing animation you can do any attack, although Fsmash/ftilt and grabbing are the easiest. How I would practice it is just by paying attention to your finger movement as you DD. Let's say you want to Fsmash to the left, so DD a bit and as you move right for the last time, just as you would input the left to continue to DD hit A at the same time and you should get an Fsmash. If you make a mistake you'll get a dash attack instead.

Just practice and I'm sure you'll gain a feel for it.

Thanks, I'll check that thread out.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Pulsewalking is so definitely dash --> backward wavedash >.<

Bair to dair seems to work more easily at lower percentages, and you basically always have to softspot the bair, otherwise they get sent too far away. I think it's pretty dependent on DI though, and it's a little difficult to land because you really won't be hitting them with the bair that close to the edge -- more often than not, it'll be the fair instead.

Which is fine, since the Ken Combo is pretty cool.

 

[ArcNatural]

For one thing, when you wavedash you can not do anything for about 10 frames (which is, roughly the total distance Marth can wavedash since he doesn't slide very far ). So technically you want to try to grab as soon as you can out of it. Normally pulse grabbing is effective when you successfully bait an attack (such as a Marth fsmash) so that you can grab the attack.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It's ten frames because of airdodge landing lag and then there's another five frames for the jumping.

So wavedashing in all takes like fifteen frames for Marth.

 

[Proverbs]

Thanks, I think I understand it a bit more now.

 

[Roman.]

does marth's shieldbreaker sweetspot the edge more than his fsmash?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Not really. Take a look at Seanson's hitbox system. Dtilt reaches disgustingly far below the ledge though.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, technically you are using the wavedash to dodge the attack, and then immediately grabbing afterwards. Grabbing people while they're attacking has nothing to do with the wavedash, but rather that Marth's grab box is much bigger than his hurt box, so it's essentially a "disjointed" grab. In the extreme case you saw at the end of that video (where Marth grabbed the other Marth out of the d-tilt), it's because Marth's hurtbox actually moves foward before the attack, so the attacking Marth techincally moved into the grabbing Marth's grab box before his attack even came out.

 

[Darxmarth23]

heyy....

Does anyone have any tips for marth going against metaknight. Since ther is a recent wave of meta knight players, all of the snakes are happy, but marth just loses.i want any tips on this.

 

[Falcinho]

You noticed that you posted this in the Melee forums, right? ^^'

 

[StickyChopstix]

I just wanna know if L-Cancelling is really required for a character like Marth. I'm trying to get into the habit of L-Cancelling but whenever I actually fight someone I never L-Cancel on my Fairs. I mostly do it automatically after Dair spike but I noticed after watching some Roy combo vids and seeing them move like lightning I tried to copy it but I always feel the lag after an aerial. With Marth I don't really notice any lag while I fight and I can still pwn my friends. It's not like I can't do it, but I'd have to actually TRY to L-Cancel. I'd rather not think about it and just have it there for muscle memory.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Does anyone have any tips for marth going against metaknight. Since ther is a recent wave of meta knight players, all of the snakes are happy, but marth just loses.i want any tips on this.

grab release --> fair

if they're better than you, you're supposed to lose as is the nature of bad matchups

and l-cancel is required, that's a very stupid question, l-cancel is always required for every character. you can't combo without it really, or rather, you can't setup combos from fair without it, which cuts down your damage output bigtime. you lose other stuff but defensive/offensive shffls and combos are important and you need them so learn.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

You HAVE to try to Lcancel. That's a fact. At first it seems kind of awkward, but you really, erally have to try. Then after practice it becomes muscle memory. Now I have trouble not trying to Lcancel my aerials in brawl.

 

[kupo15]

Hi, I just picked up Marth (switched from Link) so I wont ask a lot of questions to bog you guys down because I will be reading a lot.

So I know about the tippered moves and that they are more powerful but how do you know when using non tippered is better than the tippered? (Not the Fsmash/Dair) And when you approach with lets say the Fair, do you always go for the tippered Fair?

Ive never played a non projectile character, top tier, or one with so many possibilities (tippered moves) like Marth so I am a bit confused lol
Thanks!

I do watch vids and will play around with things so dont worry, I wont be asking for every little thing!

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

Hi, I just picked up Marth (switched from Link) so I wont ask a lot of questions to bog you guys down because I will be reading a lot.

So I know about the tippered moves and that they are more powerful but how do you know when using non tippered is better than the tippered? (Not the Fsmash/Dair) And when you approach with lets say the Fair, do you always go for the tippered Fair?

Ive never played a non projectile character, top tier, or one with so many possibilities (tippered moves) like Marth so I am a bit confused lol
Thanks!

I do watch vids and will play around with things so dont worry, I wont be asking for every little thing!

Learn to shffl consistently. The usefulness of tippers does variate from every offensive option Marth has. Watch videos to learn situational usefulness and approaches of tippered moves (percents, character weight, etc).

For instance, you may wanna make a habit of SHDFairing out of sheild grab range, or time tech chase D/Utilts, etc.) Those sorts of moves that tipper have better knockback and set up well for gimps or combos.

 

[kupo15]

Yea, I was seeing some M2k stuff with his empty shffled nairs and fairs. That is def something I am learning, his shffl timings and stuff.

So there really isnt a rule for tippered/non tippered aerials which is what I was afraid of.

Thanks for your post!

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Non-tippered Fairs send opponents forward, while tippered Fairs send them upward. One example of where you would use a non-tippered Fair rather than a tippered one is if they are off the stage and you jump off to finish them. You have a better chance of killing them with a non-tippered Fair.

 

[kupo15]

Ahh great tip. Thanks!

 

[IrArby]

Non-tippered Fairs are best at high percents to knock them off the stage. To combo effectively and consistently at lower percents, tippered Fairs dish out the most stun and damage while knocking them back as little as possible allowing you to keep comboing them. It also keeps them in the air so they can't tech into the ground.

When Marth gets his opponent past a certain percentage (different for every char but around 100% or so) it becomes almost impossible to combo them. On the ground, you'll want to use your tilts and grabs as well as nairs intead of fairs (unless they're non-tippered as Smash G O D said).

Also, be aware that the timing for SHFFLing aerials changes slightly when you actually hit an opponent vs. just hitting air. This messed me up for a while and I couldn't L cancel my fairs. Hitting with different parts of the sword will also change the timing slightly. Just plug in another controller and go into vs. mode and set the controller to lvl. 9 handicap and pratice fairing them with different points of your sword. After you've mastered the timing start working on keeping that tippered spacing all of the time in matches.

Fair is Marth's bread and butter (all his moves are extremely useful though) so if you've got more questions, I for one love talking about Melee and helping people get better at it. Many others here in this thread, who are more knowledgeable then me aswell, feel similarly. So yea feel free to ask.

I love this ****ing game!

 

[StickyChopstix]

What do you guys usually press when you SHFFL? I saw the wak's vid and it said Short Hop -> Fast Fall -> L-Cancel. Where do you guys usually put in the aerial though? I usually aerial while I'm still going up from a SH So it ends up as SH>Aerial>FF>L-Cancel. I'm assuming that's how most everyone does it?

 

[kupo15]

Thank you very much IrArby. Ill try not to ask too many questions and appreciate your help. When I read the Fair to prevent teching I was like "whoa, that makes sense"

The biggest thing I have trouble with is Frame Data. Idk exactly when the aerial stops and without the buffering system that brawl has (darn you brawl) I have a hard time with the double Fairs with the SH. But that is just woodsheding with practice to learn it.

Two things:
I heard that you can do a SH Nair and land without the need to L cancel and I have tried it and it has worked. Is this better to do? What do you guys do? L cancel or pure timing for no L cancel? I have a hard time atm inputing the Nair fast enough after the jump because I am just not used to him yet so atm I find the L cancel easier. Heck, Im still learning to SH with Marth since Link was a lot easier ^_^

And one thing I noticed. I know that Marth has tippered and non tippered but it appears that I dont get the non tippered effect if I hit someone who is standing right next to me. I also get the same sound as a tippered Fsmash/Dair. it almost seems like a hilt shot but I know there is no such thing. Does anyone know why this is?

Thanks so much

 

[elvenarrow3000]

StickyChopstix: It depends on the aerial and where you're trying to hit with it. For shffl'd fairs, I short hop, fast fall, then tap to the side with the C-stick as I'm falling, then L-cancel. For shffl'd (and auto-canceled) nairs, I short hop, tap A, then fast fall. Also, for dairs out of shield, I attack before I fastfall, so I can do it while rising, letting the attack come out as fast as possible.

kupo15: Frame data's not that important, honestly, until you get into more complicated things. If you want to learn the timing for the shdf, go into training mode and use 1/4 speed. Note where your fairs are coming out, and emulate that, only at normal speed. The most common mistake is to try to do it too fast, or through button mashing. Find the rhythm and use it.

Auto-canceled nairs are cool. You have to land after the second slash is one though. I L-cancel it anyway, just in case I messed up the timing, and anyway, it's not that much more effort.

Marth has some weird hitboxes sometimes and you get weird tippers, like utilts from behind. You just have to get the feel.

Keep in mind, though, that the "boom" tipper sound is only for the usmash, dair and fsmash. His other attacks have different softspot and sweetspot sounds.

Oh, if you really want to see where the sweetspot and whatever else spacing is, find Seanson's hitbox system. It's pretty good.

 

[kupo15]

Ok I will search for Seanson's hitbox system.
What I ment by frame data was a feel for when the attack stops and I can do another one. I wont ever memorize that the Fair is X frames long about Y secs long. That doesnt seem necessary when you can calculate that subconsciously.

Thanks for your help ^_^

EDIT: Wow I just saw EL's Frame data thread and he has so many IASA moves I had no idea o_O That Hitbox system is really awesome too

 

[Emblem Lord]

*watches from the darkness as nostalgia grips my heart, then disappears into the night.