Marth Q&A-Ask your questions here!!

[elvenarrow3000]

Landing lag is four frames for Marth, and JC grabs have more startup in that it's assumed that you're dashing.

You can X-Z at the same time while standing and get a standing grab too, you don't have to be dashing.

 

[Proud_Smash_N00b]

When is the best time to use Uair to combo and is there ever a time when it can be more useful than a Fair?

 

[Gian]

fast question.

my fox friend lets me chain grab him until 19% then he DI throw up and then down trying to fall on my head and i can never catch him again. waht should i do? btw when i try to dash away and back with a JC grab e stills touch the floor before or shines me.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I don't think you can DI the uthrow up. At least not in a way that makes too much of a difference.

Try turning around and grabbing him.

Uair can combo into the utilt or be used to shieldstab/shffl past them. You can use it to replace the second fair in a shdf or just after any fair.

You'll want to use the uair at higher percentages, as the knockback isn't amazing. It can also be used in lieu of the utilt when they're on a platform if you want to cut down on the ending lag at the cost of startup lag.

The uair should usually be your last aerial for that trip into the air, as it's got a lot of aerial lag and it's hard to follow up with with a double jump aerial.

It really depends on the situation though. You can full jump fair when they're on a high platform, then fall away with a uair if they spotdodge or even if you connect at lower percentages. You can also fair to double jump uair if they're too high for another fair or nair.

Also, you can use it to mess with their DI.

EDIT: Oh yeah, if they DI the uthrow up all the time, fthrow and then fsmash instead.

 

[ArcNatural]

You can DI the throw up, that's how foxes can shine if you try to regrab them from the standing position. You can't smash DI any of Marth's throws.

There are many ways to deal with this depending on what your opponent expects. You can always pivot grab. Which is doing a quick dash forward tapping back and grabbing in the few frames in which your pivoting. This enables you to have your character out of range of the shine but still be in range to grab him. Other options are slight walk forward fsmash, uptilt to fsmash if they missed the tech. uptilt to quick dash dance dash attack to regrab if they miss the tech. Uptilt to tech chase if they start teching, etc. Plenty of options.

 

[SHDW23]

i've seen shffl'd uairs used to juggle fox at mid/low %, it might work against other fast fallers too but i don't know. i have also seen (and used) SH fair, uair (instead of SHDF) then a tilt (usually), but i don't know how effective that is against high level players.

 

[Aesir]

So my marth vs Falcon game is horrible. D:

advise? >_>;

 

[IrArby]

Watch vids of Cactuar vs. Scar for one. He does alot of throws to tech chase rather than trying to land/space fairs. Against Falcon, he'll find away into your lag between fairs or as you land without too much difficulty. If at all possible get him to or off the edge and never let him back. As M2K has said Falcon wins the onstage game in this matchup but as I'm sure you know he's got amazing edgeguarding. Theres on awesome clip, the very first one in fact of M2K edgeguarding PC's Falcon about six different times for one KO on his Real Kings Wear Tiarras Combo video.

Beyond that I'll let someone else (Arcnatural or Elvenarrow300) answer your question. You may want to be more specific though as all of that was just general good advice. If you've got specific problems with the matchup that'd be more helpful to anyone trying to advise you.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Blah... I always hate trying to come up with specific matchup advice because it can change so much from player to player.

Well first thing is to beware of Falcon's combos. He can start a combo on you from almost anything he does, so be ready to DI. Up to survive, away to break combos, as a rule of thumb. Because of your range and priority, I'd guess that they would try to start off a nair, but if they manage to land something else, they can work from that.

So try not to get hit. Use your nairs and fairs to keep him away. You want to negate his speed so you can camp near the edge and eliminate the option of landing behind you or the like.

Ummm... take advantage of his slow tech and gimpable recovery. He can't do anything to you if you edgehog with his Falcon Dive, so take advantage of that. If you're going to edgeguard him, use the dtilt over the fsmash so you won't get humped after a ledgetech.

Grabs are pretty important in this matchup, so try to get them... and... yeah, that's about all I have right now.

 

[Europhoria]

Vs. Falcon:

DI the hell out of his combos
Crouch Cancel jab, n-air, raptor boost, etc. to grabs

Negate his attacks with various higher priority moves; whether you approach or camp with this concept is up to you I guess >_> I think Falcon sucks defensively and approaching him is probably better then giving him a chance to space himself/get inside you + camping is gay.

Make sure not to get grabbed by covering yourself with hit boxes/running away
Grab him and **** his crappy tech options

Power shield if you can once he commits to an approach and then kill him with a smash or something. This is more viable then it sounds >_>

Edgeguard/Gimp with whatever comes up; wavedash off into f-air/b-air out of down throw, counter after throw, running off f-air, ledge hop, forward smash, etc.

 

[ArcNatural]

Don't stay in the middle of the stage (unless it's like FoD or Yoshi's Story, then it doesn't matter). Falcon holds all the advantage at the middle of the stage.

Know your DI in this matchup, Up and towards Falcon tends to stop combos at low percents (until they realize it and just knee to knee). Camping with stationary or retreating nairs and fairs combined with dash dance grabbing is really the way to go. Falcon has a horrible tech roll that's pretty easy to exploit.

Never, ever get comfortable with dash dancing a certain way against Falcon. Knees can come flying in from anywhere on the stage.

 

[brawlpro]

VS falcon: Don't get grabbed, space your aerials so he won't be able to shield grab, marth has a ******** disjointed hitbox.

nope i didn't read the other posts so this might be mentioned in them.

 

[Proverbs]

To SHDF what's the best button combination? I think I remember reading somewhere that the best combination was A and the c-stick for the two f-airs. Can anyone verify this? I'm having trouble getting my finger to A fast enough, while I can do it with Z more easily, however I occasionally do a JC grab instead T_T;; Any tips (No pun intended <.<;; )?

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

To SHDF what's the best button combination? I think I remember reading somewhere that the best combination was A and the c-stick for the two f-airs. Can anyone verify this? I'm having trouble getting my finger to A fast enough, while I can do it with Z more easily, however I occasionally do a JC grab instead T_T;; Any tips (No pun intended <.<;; )?

The way I do that is: SH, then >Z, DI whatever which way to not get shield grabbed or continue the combo, and >C .. simple.

 

[ArcNatural]

I started with A then c-stick. Now I tend to C-stick both when facing to the left, and A -> C-stick facing to the right. Just takes practice.

 

[Proverbs]

C-stick both!? o_X;; Eugh...that sounds impossible <.<;;

 

[IrArby]

I was trying for a while to Cstick both. I've seen Cactuar do it. Not personally, but during a match he and his opponent were seperated by that big rock on Pokemon Stadium during the fire stage part. Just to kill time, he would do retreating SHDF but the first Fair would be a huge retreat backwards. I thought immediately that it could only be done that way with using the Cstick twice. Thanks for bringing it up I'll remember that and practice it later.

I think most Marths use A for the first and Cstick for the second or so I was told.

 

[Cactuar]

Haha, yeah... my tech skill is not half bad.

 

[Puffin]

I do both with the C-stick. I learned so long ago that I don't remember how difficult it was...

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm glad to see someone still checks up on this thread. Thanks Arcnatural.

For the Falcon advice, be careful with aerial approaches. Ground approaches are much safer (d-tilts, grabs, ect.) but less rewarding. Platforms are a god send in this matchup, but note that Dreamland is a great Falcon stage, and that third level platform will become a big nuicence on that stage.

For stopping Falcon's approaches. Well, that part is pretty easy, since you can just eat through his aerials with uptilts, and on the ground you just d-tilt and react to what he does. But most Falcons will just dash dance and wait for you to miss an attack before approaching, so don't ever just throw out attacks.

And this bit is just a personal preference, but I find side B to be very useful in this matchup. After hitting with the first two hits, check to see if they DI'd behind you. If not, continue the combo. If they did, you get a free tech chase at lower percents, and you can get a free foward smash (or pretty much anything you want) at higher percents. If they shielded the first two hits, well, then you're pretty much screwed, but you can do the third hit down and trick them into trying to shield grab you (eventually they catch on and just jump and knee, but hey side B is a risky move). Side B has a lot of rewards, but a pretty big risk, so use it sparringly.

 

[IrArby]

So what are some other cool quasi-techy Marth things? I'm bored humor me and I want Chocolate Milk.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So what are some other cool quasi-techy Marth things? I'm bored humor me and I want Chocolate Milk.

Well, up B is an interesting move to use every now and then (especially against Falcos who like to ledgehop double laser) with it's good knockback and quick start up time.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=125623

There's more, but I don't feel like fishing for them right now.

 

[Cactuar]

I don't know if there are any recent videos of my movement out there, but that is probably the most technical Marth thing. I'll try and get Eggm to upload some matches or something...

Other kinda technical stuff is just practicing certain attack patterns, like landing a fair into a reverse utilt, then reversing and utilting again, or practicing stuff like pivoting. Honestly, I never really use pivoting in real matches.

Other things I don't really do:
dtilt vs Falcon unless its part of an edgeguard or tech chase
use fb vs Falcon
rely on mostly ground game vs Falcon

 

[IrArby]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=125623

Thanks for the link but thats not very new or quasi-techy cool stuff unless I missed something.

I do enjoy ledgecanceling aerials into edgehogs just for looks. I just got an idea to try and ledgehop nairs above the edge then DI back and edge cancel it. Its probably not possible or someone would've been doing it by now but I'll give it a try anyway.

Cactuar: I for one would appreciate it if you posted a link to those vids here if they ever go up.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

I don't know if there are any recent videos of my movement out there, but that is probably the most technical Marth thing. I'll try and get Eggm to upload some matches or something...

Other kinda technical stuff is just practicing certain attack patterns, like landing a fair into a reverse utilt, then reversing and utilting again, or practicing stuff like pivoting. Honestly, I never really use pivoting in real matches.

Other things I don't really do:
dtilt vs Falcon unless its part of an edgeguard or tech chase
use fb vs Falcon
rely on mostly ground game vs Falcon

Cactuarr I was gonna ask you for a Marth ditto at Chu's when you, PC, and Forte brought Melee out but you guys played doubles then I had to go >.>

 

[/~Dogma~\]

is DDing even worth trying against a conservative enemy

 

[brawlpro]

Yes .

 

[Falcinho]

How can you post "Yes ."

Teach me forum ATs pls

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

is DDing even worth trying against a conservative enemy

It certainly does. It helps you become less predictable and opens up opportunities on any player to make a mistake if applied correctly. Mixing DDing with an empty SH toward them, waveland back, whatever gimmick you prefer, you can watch as they roll toward you, throw out a defensive maneuver so you can capitalize however you want. This doesn't just apply to marth btw.

 

[SHDW23]

i used to play against an extremely conservative player (3 or 4 rolls for each attack) and i would go so far as to say that dding is indispensable against such an opponent. baiting the roll or other defensive move is the only way to get a hit in on someone who is really good at playing defensively.

 

[Cactuar]

Lol. 3 or 4 rolls for each attack...

 

[Dark Sonic]

Other things I don't really do:
dtilt vs Falcon unless its part of an edgeguard or tech chase
use fb vs Falcon
rely on mostly ground game vs Falcon

Well, Cactuar definately has more Falcon experience than me, so take his advice.

 

[Cactuar]

Meh, different styles work for different reasons. Fb is actually supposed to be very useful, I just prefer not to use it.

 

[SHDW23]

i'm wondering, i know some spacies player use the claw grip (thumb for a, b, and c-stick, index for jump, middle/ring for R...) but do any marth players? and would it give you any advantage at all?

 

[Dark Sonic]

The only advantage it would give you is slightly easier retreating SHDFs. But...those still aren't that hard to do without clawing anyway.

 

[IrArby]

Personally not a fan of the claw. THe only advantage I see in it is speed with say JCshines however its much less consistent then the good ole thumb slide.

And yea 3-4 rolls? DD to tech(roll)chase everytime. If they stop rolling and just sit in thier shield you've great reduced their options. They'll roll backwards which you'll just chase, do an aerial which is easy to CC since as Marth you can just space them and sheildpoke with Dtilts, or depending on thier character they'll UpB in which case you'll still outspace them and hit them in post lag. Instictually, I sit in my shield more than I should and good players always punish me for it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

As far as double C-stick fairs go, you don't have to move your thumb, you can just nudge it with the side of your hand, if that makes sense.

 

[IrArby]

Is it possible/probable to nudge it in either direction?

I'm thinking that its a lot easier to thumb it twice to the right (pulling it to the right) and I guess nudging it would be easier to the left. Does anyone use one for each direction?

 

[SHDW23]

i usually use A for the first fair, which give me time to get all the way to the c-stick with my thumb. but that doesn't work as well if you're trying to do retreating SHDF's.

 

[ArcNatural]

Is it possible/probable to nudge it in either direction?

I'm thinking that its a lot easier to thumb it twice to the right (pulling it to the right) and I guess nudging it would be easier to the left. Does anyone use one for each direction?

If you jump with Y, it's rather easy to nudge it with the hand in either direction.