Marth Q&A-Ask your questions here!!

[otg]

ooops lol, I meant Tech chasing, DDing is just part of that. Depending on how good Doc's DI is he can recover above the ledge, and thus evade all Bair attempts, it's something I've been working on lately and too great success. The strategy GodsheadlamentX listed got him edgehogged more than it worked.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I'm having a pretty hard time visualizing this, but I also have a hard time believing a Marth having a hard time edgeguarding Doc. Vids plz?

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

I'm having a pretty hard time visualizing this, but I also have a hard time believing a Marth having a hard time edgeguarding Doc. Vids plz?

just youtube "SSBM OTG" Theres 4 matches vs a decent falcon, we don't have any matches of our own yet. He isn't going all out grimey in these matches, just so you guys know.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

That's not Marth against Doc though. Falcon's utilt is a pale pale imitation of Marth's fsmash and JonaDiaper doesn't really edgeguard anyway.

I just realized I double posted way back there. Argh. Why can't I delete my own posts?

 

[Proverbs]

n00b question: How does one Ken Combo? I kinda know how to do it and if I see it I can call it. But I can't seem to do it. I've landed f-air to spike (which I think is just the end of the combo, right?) a couple of times, but can't seem to do it consistently. What percentages does this need to be done at and where on the sword should I be hitting? How can I set up for this?

The biggest question for me is how can I practice this and start using it in my gameplay so that I can pull it off reliably when I see an opportunity?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It varies between characters and where you hit with the fair. Softspots work over a hundred percent or so with Ganondorf and eightyish for Doc. Really, you just have to decided for yourself what to do when you hit with the fair. You could go into another fair or a Shield Breaker or a nair but if you're going for the dair spike, you have to space it.

If you need more details, just ask.

 

[IrArby]

Just thought of this a minute or two ago: wondered if anyone thought it might be useful. I haven't seen this used as far as I can remember but I could be (likely am) wrong.

A lot of Marths will tipper fair someones shield, land, go into an immediate uptilt I'm guessing to punish anyone looking to capitalize on landing lag. My thought is Why not use dancing blade since (unless I am once again mistaken) the first stroke of dancing blade is Marths quickest attack. Any Brawl noob will tell you its a natural combo so it could possibly get in the first 2 maybe even 3 hits since I'm guessing they'll DI toward you at first to do their attack/grab on you during your landing lag.

It may very well be that this was used and disbanded because people punished it but I'd like to hear some thoughts on it even if those thoughts say that my idea was stupid so I don't waste my time doing it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Well for one thing, fair to utilt when the fair is shielded is asking for a shieldgrab after the utilt.

Anyway, the Dancing Blade isn't Marth's fastest attack. First hit comes out on frame six, whereas Marth's jab comes out on frame four. Which, I guess, is still good enough to not get shieldgrabbed, but the next hit doesn't come out for another thirteen frames, which is enough time for them to shieldgrab you, and if not the NEXT hit comes out in twelve frames, which is also enough time for them to shieldgrab you and if not the NEXT hit comes out in fourteen frames, which is also enough time for them to shieldgrab you.

 

[IrArby]

Yea I went back and looked at a few vids just now and its more like when your trying to land you protect yourself with the late fair and uptilt immediatly upon landing to stop their approach. My question would I guess be would dancing blade be a suitable subsitute for uptilt in situations like this one or whatever the correct application of the fair to uptilt is? And wouldn't getting shieldgrabbed not be an option assuming you tipped the fair as I said so their too far out of range?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, tippering the fair would keep you out of shieldgrab range, but if you're trying to hit with the utilt afterwards, you're definitely in shieldgrab range. The utilt (and the Dancing Blade for that matter) doesn't really have as much range as Marth's other attacks.

I'm pretty sure utilt after the fair is either a mindgame to catch people on the shieldgrab or an attempt to combo off of the fair which they actually expected to hit. I used to utilt after every fair on the ground, invariably, until my friend found out about shieldgrabbing.

So yeah, in situations where the utilt would work, so would the Dancing Blade, but that's not very often.

 

[IrArby]

Cool I'll remember to not try and abuse it. I never use dancing blade in my matches but its useful so I'm trying to use it more. Not often just more since I never use it now. Btw elvenarrow3000 kudos on keeping Melee alive man. At any given time I'll look at the Character Specific list and see the last post on like half the threads are by you. Good **** man. I guess it helps when your up till 4:52am. lol Thanks for the responses/advice.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, I tried making the switch to Brawl once. Couldn't do it. The game's terrible and the playerbase... *shudder* I was on... Pit boards, I think, and I saw a post that was like "Is it cheap if I throw Link into the air at zero percent and juggle him then kill him before he can land?" and then I left again.

Back to your question though, the Dancing Blade works better at lower percentages or on fastfallers. Otherwise you won't really connect with the third hit, which is the one you're usually looking to hit with.

You can use it on spotdodgers though.

 

[IrArby]

Ahhh! Why didn't I think of that. I play this guy, a Falco main, in tournaments every couple weeks who spotdodges excessively and I'd always try to bait it with dashdancing but he manages to work around that alot. I'll try dash in, dash out, turn using dancingblade and punish him coming out of the spot dodge. I see Ken do this in his matches against PC (that one MLG where Ken loses to PC in the finals I think and Wife was commentating). Playing Falco is a matchup I'm trying to familarize myself with more.

Another question. I've decided to devote some time in the near future to learn to pivot. Do you use the c-stick to do pivot smashes or should I just stick to the analog? I'll still use the analog if I want to pivot Ftilt obviously but I'm wondering which is easier for pivot Fsmash.

I've tried multiple times to play the game but even by myself the CPUs are cheaper then the cheapest Melee player. The only reason Brawl is being played competitively is because Melee (the prequel) was played competitively.

Thanks again

 

[brawlpro]

Stick to whatever's easier.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Ummm... heh, you caught me, I haven't put any effort into learning to pivot. I figure if I need to smash at that distance, I can wavesmash and if I need to hit farther, I'll just dash cancel smash. A two frame window is just too bleh for me.

But yeah, whichever way works for you.

EDIT: There're a lot of ways to punish spotdodgers, like L-canceled aerials to dtilt spam or dtilt to dtilt or dtilt to jab or something, depending on the spotdodger. I don't come across too many spotdodge spammers, but I generally use the Dancing Blade to knock them out of it because... I'm... really lazy. And plus it's really the only time I use the Dancing Blade offensively.

Anyway, here's Falco's spotdodge data.

Ground dodge
Invulnerable 2-15 out of 22

 

[IrArby]

Only 2 frames difference really? In that case pivot fsmash only seems appropiate out of a dash dance in which case I'll use the c-stick. Part of the reason I'm interested in pivoting is just because its another technique I can learn. I've learned all the major and many minor techniques so this one has yet to be perfected. What I really need to learn is better mindgames/smarter play but I don't play enough smashers so I end up doing this instead.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Errr... no, you have two frames during the pivot to execute an attack.

I think. That's what I read somewhere, anyway.

Marth's wavedash has fifteen frames of lag, and his dash is sixteen frames long. So I guess for certain distances pivoting is better but I'd probably just walk forward and smash instead.

But yeah, you probably should learn pivoting. I didn't because... I dunno, it just doesn't seem to have a place in my playstyle.

 

[soap]

i used to be able to pivot consistently but my control stick got so loose it doesnt snap back to neutral and now i cant do it. i never used it in game though, i had to think about it and stuff to get it consistently, so if i need to pivot its either forward b, grab, shield or aerial, thats plenty to work with.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, pivoting works better when you're constantly dash dancing which I only do for techchases and if I'm trying to intercept them after a high recovery. On the offense, I prefer pulsewalking, so wavesmashing is smoother for me.

Don't take my example though, pivoting is fast and probably useful.

 

[IrArby]

What is pulsewalking? Yea pivoting does sound useful but not overly so. I put some time into it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Pulsewalking is dashing (or running) forward then wavedashing back.

 

[puckgood]

Hey, I learned how to shuflle recently. Not consistently, but still. However, do you have any tips as to when to use it? My friend (He hates advanced techs for some reason) teases me about it a lot. Kinda annoying. So.... any tips as to when it's most useful?

Also, I'm working on wavedashing right now. Are there any good techniques for training? I don't have a gc, so I try to be as efficient as possible in learning at's. Thank you very much

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Shffl fairs for the approach, shffl uairs to hit people on platforms above you, shffl dairs for the spike when they're trying to sweetspot the recovery. Those're the standard uses.

Ummm... wavedashing is just learning the timing... and making sure you keep your control stick near-horizontal. Remember, wavedashing timing varies from character to character.

 

[puckgood]

Okay, thanks. Do you usually use R or L for wavedashing? And is shffled fairs usable in the middle of a battle with Roy?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I wavedash with R. In fact, I do everything with R - L-cancel, shield, tech, roll, spotdodge, airdodge...

It's mostly because I don't like the way my right hand clenches when I try to wavedash with L, but if I'm trying to wavedash out of shield, I switch off to L then let go of R and use that to wavedash. It's not often that I have to do that, though...

EDIT: Shffl'd fairs as Roy or against Roy? Your fair will most likely eat his aerials as it outranges his fair and is faster than his nair. It also combos well. As Roy, fairs have very low hit stun and knockback, so you'd better have a fast follow up.

 

[ArcNatural]

Just to supply a bit of variation. I happened to do everything with L and only wavedash with R. I ended up doing this when I wanted an easy way to wavedash in shield. Do whatever you feel like doing.

shffling is amazing. once you can do it consistently enough it changes everything about the game. I strongly consider pushing your friend to learn it, or most likely he will stop playing (happened to me). He probably mains Samus though, who out of most of the characters I think benefits from shffling the least.

And for pivoting. The one real use for pivoting I've found, is when you shffl fairs into a shield and dash away pivot fsmash into shield grabbers. Other than that walking or wavedashing are just... easier.

 

[Proverbs]

n00b question: How does one Ken Combo? I kinda know how to do it and if I see it I can call it. But I can't seem to do it. I've landed f-air to spike (which I think is just the end of the combo, right?) a couple of times, but can't seem to do it consistently. What percentages does this need to be done at and where on the sword should I be hitting? How can I set up for this?

The biggest question for me is how can I practice this and start using it in my gameplay so that I can pull it off reliably when I see an opportunity?

It varies between characters and where you hit with the fair. Softspots work over a hundred percent or so with Ganondorf and eightyish for Doc. Really, you just have to decided for yourself what to do when you hit with the fair. You could go into another fair or a Shield Breaker or a nair but if you're going for the dair spike, you have to space it.

If you need more details, just ask.

Other characters can't Ken Combo to my knowledge. Can anyone answer my question better? I don't feel like I got any new information.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I meant it varies between who you're trying to Ken Combo.

Out of the fair, you have a lot of options, and spacing basically determines what you should go for. In the case of the Ken Combo, you just have to know whereabouts they should be so that you can hit them with a sweetspot dair. Of course, they won't always fall into the exact right spot, so there are minor adjustments you can make.

For instance, if you pull back away from them and use your dair, you'll be hitting with a higher part of the arc, so you can sweetspot the dair even if they're close to your level. You could also wait and fall for a while until they were in the right place for the dair to land. There's just a lot of very small things that you can really only get a feel for through experience.

The Ken Combo really is just a leap of faith. It seems like it'd be difficult with the sweetspot requirement, but it really isn't. It's much like Fox's waveshine combos - you just have to be confident in your own ability and know that it'll work. If you hesitate or whatever, you'll miss your chance. As soon as you hit with the fair, you should already be going for the doublejump and spacing yourself out for the dair.

Of course, if they're too high and they don't fall fast enough for you to wait until they get to the sweetspot range, you could always just reverse Dolphin Slash them for the kill instead.

 

[IrArby]

Do they have a name for this combo? It goes something like this. Fair, SH Double Fair, land, and instantly fmash them. I've seen M2K do this alot but I'm pretty sure its not his combo. Just curious.

Also, I read a piece of advice from Cactuar that basically says if you perfectly L cancel a fair into someones shield and dash past them immediately you pretty much cannot be shieldgrabbed. I tried to test this and noticed most of the time when I actually hit someone I don't L cancel it correctly. Now I've been using the Cstick to get my timing precise but it makes the movement back and forth ackward for my right thumb. Should I practice doing it with the control stick and just relearn the timing or keep using Cstick and get accustomed to the ackward switch (which isn't that I'm only just now using it). I'm asking for an opinion here obviously.

Thanks

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I don't think so, it's just a standard fair combo.

You're mostly going to be using the C-stick so that you can control spacing with the control stick... I don't think it's too bad though, you hit X to shorthop then you move your thumb over to the C-stick as you're rising into the air since you can't fastfall until the apex of your jump anyway. As soon as you hit that apex, fastfall and tap forward on the C-stick to use the fair while falling, trying to hit them at the very last moment, then touch R to L-cancel.

I don't know how good of an idea it is to run behind them though... there're characters like Samus or Link or Bowser that'll catch you with the up-B out of shield. Normally I'd advise jabbing or buffering a backward roll or spotdodge instead, as it's a little safer, but it's your choice.

 

[Cactuar]

Do they have a name for this combo? It goes something like this. Fair, SH Double Fair, land, and instantly fmash them. I've seen M2K do this alot but I'm pretty sure its not his combo. Just curious.

Also, I read a piece of advice from Cactuar that basically says if you perfectly L cancel a fair into someones shield and dash past them immediately you pretty much cannot be shieldgrabbed. I tried to test this and noticed most of the time when I actually hit someone I don't L cancel it correctly. Now I've been using the Cstick to get my timing precise but it makes the movement back and forth ackward for my right thumb. Should I practice doing it with the control stick and just relearn the timing or keep using Cstick and get accustomed to the ackward switch (which isn't that I'm only just now using it). I'm asking for an opinion here obviously.

Thanks

Note: Don't do this vs Fox, Falco, Bowser, Samus, or any character with a big reverse grab such as Falcon. Vs those characters, use tip spaced fairs and dash backwards or do whatever instead.

 

[IrArby]

Thanks elvenarrow3000/Cactuar. All points dutifully taken. I use the Cstick for Fox/Falco Dairs since it allows me to have very precise timing when I fast fall. The only part that really gives me trouble now is doing a Fair instead of a Dair which happens alot accidentally but I'm working on it. I didn't know most Marths use Cstick for fairs but I'll definetly make the switch. I mostly play other Marths (which sucks occasionally) but I'll keep this in mind when I'm versing Falcons, Foxs, Bowser, Link. etc.

Thanks again.

 

[ArcNatural]

Thanks elvenarrow3000/Cactuar. All points dutifully taken. I use the Cstick for Fox/Falco Dairs since it allows me to have very precise timing when I fast fall. The only part that really gives me trouble now is doing a Fair instead of a Dair which happens alot accidentally but I'm working on it. I didn't know most Marths use Cstick for fairs but I'll definetly make the switch. I mostly play other Marths (which sucks occasionally) but I'll keep this in mind when I'm versing Falcons, Foxs, Bowser, Link. etc.

Thanks again.

Most use A or Z for the first fair then C-stick the second when doing sh double fairs. I now usually do c-stick going left and A then c-stick going right. Just never really could do the double fair going right without clawing.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

If you're accidentally doing the dair instead of the fair, it could be because of the curve of your hands. Without looking, try pressing straight to the side. You might see that you're off a little bit, because of the way your hands are positioned. I run into that problem sometimes when directing perfect wavedashes or tricky angles with the Fire Fox/Fire Bird.

 

[Stewie1288]

My tech skill is getting more consistent, (can WD, L-cancel, ledgehop, DD) but what I'm really curious about is (for lack of a better term) keeping your fingers busy. I know Marth has an amazing DD game, his wavedash is great and extends his range even further.

What I'm asking is, do you find yourself DDing/WDing a lot just to keep your fingers going when there is that lull in the match? Do you find it helps to overwhelm lesser skilled opponents? How good is DDing for spacing reasons? Does it allow you to better set up your opponent?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It depends on who you're playing against. Against someone super aggressive, you can shffl nairs and fairs to keep them at bay (retreating or spaced, of course) but against other people you could dashdance or pulsewalk. If you do choose to pulsewalk, you'll want to use a shorter wavedash so you don't get too much backwards momentum, because then there's an awkward pause in your movement.

The dashdance can help you space, yes, but it's mostly to make your actions more unpredictable.

 

[Stewie1288]

Define pulsewalk please?? Video/post link would be hot. It's 3AM so i'm a little lazy to search it up. =)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4697485&postcount=15

 

[Proverbs]

^Any videos of Marth doing it instead of Samus? Not sure how short the wavedash should be.

 

[brawlpro]

.....

The wavedash can be as long/short as u want it to be depending on the situation.

Besides I'm pretty sure ur wavedash can cancel out when u dash so if u think u wavedashed too long just dash forward to cancel it out whenever.