Marth Q&A-Ask your questions here!!

[IrArby]

Cool. Fthrow wavedash to jab just sets up for another grab which I guess is usable if you wanna push your opponent closer to the edge. Assuming that it works. Its situational but works best on mid percentage floaties.
Are there any other combos out of a grab for floaties besides Uthrow to Uair and Dthrow to Fsmash?

Thanks again.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Combos out of grabs really depend a lot on DI. You can throw in mindgames too - if they DI down and away and tech, Marth's usually fast enough to tech chase them with another grab, but if they DI up and towards then you can fsmash or fair or something like that. Generally I avoid grabs though after like... forty percent... fairs combo a lot easier for me.

 

[Ace83]

Generally I avoid grabs though after like... forty percent... fairs combo a lot easier for me.

i would never recommend avoiding grabs.

 

[IrArby]

I think he means grabing after a Fthrow. Thanks

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Hmm...I have double fairs down. My question is the timing whether or not you hit with the fairs.
Like, is the timing between the first and the 2nd fairs different from if you were to hit someone with the first fair than if your first fair were to miss and just swish air?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, the timing should be off by like six frames because of hit stun.

 

[IrArby]

If you do it enough you'll learn the timing for missed and hit fairs without conscious thought. You really don't want to miss with the first fair though. Are you jumping directly into SHDF? Reason I'm asking is cause thats dangerous. Just don't use SHDF as a combo starter is what I'm saying. To answer you question just practice it alot.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Yeah, the timing should be off by like six frames because of hit stun.

If you do it enough you'll learn the timing for missed and hit fairs without conscious thought. You really don't want to miss with the first fair though. Are you jumping directly into SHDF? Reason I'm asking is cause thats dangerous. Just don't use SHDF as a combo starter is what I'm saying. To answer you question just practice it alot.

Ah-ha! Thank you, eleven arrows. (tee-hee, puns)
I have been practicing. But the annoying part of my practicing is that I have only one controller. (I am semi-like PC Chris, don't own a Gamecube, just periodically borrow my neighbor's Gamecube and she keeps one of her 2 controllers. Although I do own a copy of Smash Melee that is fully mine. hehe, paradox.)
But yes, with that one controller it is SUPER annoying. Training mode doesn't let you use C-stick, which is what I do for aerials, and putting a computer in versus mode is annoying cause they won't leave you alone. I'm trying to find out if the fairs have different timing in the air but they always get in the way so I can't do swishes consistently to compare muscle memory. (swishing air, not hitting anything)

Now for IrArby, well it's one of my main combo starters. I ask if there's a time difference for the reason of my friend who plays Link. I'll use a fair to block a boomerang/arrow then use the 2nd fair to hit Link instead of using a jab/ftlit which leaves Marth partially stunned.
Also in general, like if I miss the 1st fair, I'll pull out the 2nd one to hit the unsuspecting Ganondorf who likes to rush in thinking there's an opening. Then I go and do another SHDF after the Ganon gets hit by the outta-nowhere 2nd fair. That also happens generally when I miss the 1st fair.
Well what combo starters do you suggest? I usually do side-B side-B side B, down B to rack up damage starting from 0 if I can. Also upthrow to uptilits, then full hop Bair to Fair.
Fthrow to Bthrow then fsmash/tech punish with dash attack to set up for all sorts of stuff.
Then from there just keep 'em away with Nairs/dtilts/ftilts till they get sent far enough for me to do Marth's specialty:Edgeguarding. I got edgeguarding down really good.
I use Nair's a lot, full hop, short hop if they miss a tech and I'm dashing towards them.

Critique that strategy too since I just realized I typed it all out. he.
Oh, and I just came up with another question, difference/preferences between Bthrow and Dthrow?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I don't gt it. Eleven arrows?

The problem with shdf is that they (let's say Ganondorf for instance) can full jump over you and stomp you.

Emblem Lord wrote a guide about approaching with Marth... you should read it sometime. I generally use dash dance JC grabs, shffl'd fairs/nairs and sometimes CC dtilts. At really low percentages, fair/nair can go into a grab which can lead to tech chases/combos and grabs can do the same, obviously.

I don't know how useful ftilt is... I almost never use it. Generally I opt for the jab/dtilt/fair/nair to space myself out instead. Or just fsmash.

I never use the bthrow. The dthrow has less lag and a better angle, I think.

 

[IrArby]

A single shffld fair is better than approaching with a SHDF. You have safer options if you miss one and then land immediately than if you were to miss the first and try for the second.

Even if your not at higher levels yet (not that I am or anything) its a bad habit since people will learn how to punish it. If you whiff the first one theres nothing to stop them from hitting you before you can even throw out the second fair.

Also, depending on who your versing, landing the second fair maybe difficult since you don't have enough forward momentum to carry you far enough to hit them again. If you do have that much momentum your probably asking to be shieldgrabbed, Up B'ed, w/e.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I tried to spell your name but had a typo with an extra e. I decided to leave it as eleven arrows.
I have seen the approach guide before. I've been lurking. hehe.
I've done those without looking at it. When I started it was just all JC grabs and Nairs. Noobs can't find a way to shake off them JC grabs. Stupid Samus that CC everything gets grabbed!
I use the term noob loosely. noobs as in spam C-stick on ground.
Recently I've gotten the habit of switching dash attacks with dtilts when dashing.
Only thing I don't do is pivot fsmash.
I just reviewed that guide though, I should grab more after dtilts and fairs.

IrArby:
I play friendlies at my neighbors' houses. they're usually link, ganon, jiggs, and the samus is a noob that just charges up her beam after a crouch-cancelled dsmash.

 

[Jewdo]

You know how pressing L/R just after being hit by Marth's counter arcs you downward faster than normal? Well, I do this a lot and follow it with a tech, and I was wondering if there was a time where you should NOT do this? Except for being Countered off the edge at high % with a character that has poor recovery.

 

[Proverbs]

Quick question from a complete n00b:

I'm having trouble KOing with Marth. Sad, I know. My Falcon is infecting my Marth. I'm too used to KOing them by successive aerials allowing them no recovery.

Unfortunately, all of my f-airs are just sending people sky rocketing and I can never set up for the Ken Combo. I can control fights well and deal even 100%+ before getting touched at times but have trouble finishing the job. Any basic advice? It's hard for me to KO reliably under 150-200% now T_T;; (It happens occasionally around 70-100%, but this is still pretty bad ><;;

 

[IrArby]

When comboing upwards of 70% you'll want to hit more with the center of the blade. At low percents tippers lets you combo since they go up not away but at higher %s they just go way up which is bad. At high percents you'll want to grab, jab a few time for extra damage and throw them offstage to edgeguard. Thats usually your best bet. If you want to/have, to stick to aerials Nair is best and can kill or at least set up edguards.

Me personally I like to use f-tilt which is IMO underused (but only as a kill or edguard setup since it doesn't combo) but thats just subjective. The first two strats are pretty tried and true ways around the Marth no Kill zone. You may not combo but you can still kill.

 

[ArcNatural]

Not to mention that you should be looking to kill at any point from 70% onward. Either via edgegaurding or some combo ending in a fsmash. Marth has great difficulty koing usually after 130ish percent because his best ko move is his fsmash or edgegaurd and both of those are hard to set up when they get knocked up really high and can practically DI back to the middle of the stage.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

@AceDudeyeah

Maybe it's just me, but I find the dtilt approach to be one of the worst of the best. If that makes sense. It can be shieldgrabbed and even if you connect, it really only sets up for a jab or an fsmash, neither of which really combo that well. You could grab out of it, I suppose, but most of the time it'd be safer to just grab in the first place, or fair to grab.

I dunno how useful the pivot fsmash is... seems pretty shieldgrabbable to me. I like wavesmashing more, anyway.

@Jewdo

I've actually never heard of that happening... Marth's Counter really isn't his best option. It's useful for like... Falcos maybe and edgeguarding sometimes. But that's about it. But yeah, you should always tech stuff if possible.

Oh, actually, one of the funniest things to do is if you're Marth and you're playing against a hookshot recovering Link, you can run off and Counter when they airdodge/draw level with the stage. The hookshot will set off your Counter and they'll get knocked away for a KO. It's pretty awesome.

@Proverbs

Holy crap that's a high percentage. At that point you can kill them with tipper fairs. Personally, I try to go for kills at around forty percent. Lower, if possible. The softspot fair is an awesome gimp and if you can edgeguard them with a tippered fsmash or dair spike, you'll be golden. The reverse Dolphin Slash rocks as an airguard too.

Let's see...

0%-40% Build up damage/gimp kill
40%-60% Fair to fsmash or fthrow/dthrow to wavesmash
70%-90% Fair to dair or fthrow/dthrow to wavesmash
90%-100% Nair or fthrow/dthrow to techchase CC fsmash
100%+ Nair or reverse Dolphin Slash

Those are rough numbers... obviously they'll change based on the characters you're playing. Edgeguarding is always an option.

Be aggressive when you edgeguard. Ledgehop bairs, shffl'd dairs at the ledge, run off doublejump fairs (softspotted) or reverse Dolphin Slashes are all good options. Marth has a ton of options of the stage, so use them.

 

[Jewdo]

You know how pressing L/R just after being hit by Marth's counter arcs you downward faster than normal?

I've actually never heard of that happening...

Really? I've been trying to reproduce it by myself, but with no success (working two controllers is tough). However, I'll be willing to get video when I next see my Melee buddy and we can get a closer look at this oddity. It kinda feels like teching the upperbound of Counter's arc when it works.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I saw a video of something like that but it was with Roy. I don't think it's a big deal anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about getting combo'd after a Counter. It really just doesn't happen very much.

 

[Proverbs]

Thanks to those who helped, I'm still getting used to comboing well. *just came from playing Brawl* I'm going to see what I can do. But thanks for letting me know that I should be killing at around 40%. I'm just having trouble pressuring them off the stage. The information about the n-air was definitely helpful and I've put that to good use. Thanks also about the strategies for the different percentages. I'm going to see what I can do.

 

[IrArby]

Proverbs - *just came from playing Brawl* I'm going to see what I can do. But thanks for letting me know that I should be killing at around 40%.

Yea killing anyone in Brawl is like killing a good Melee Peach, they always float right back. Learning to gimpkill (a Marth speciallity) will add a lot to your game.

 

[AIDS]

Proverbs - *just came from playing Brawl* I'm going to see what I can do. But thanks for letting me know that I should be killing at around 40%.

Yea killing anyone in Brawl is like killing a good Melee Peach, they always float right back. Learning to gimpkill (a Marth speciallity) will add a lot to your game.

agreed, but brawls game does not have much at all. lol

 

[AceDudeyeah]

oh, yeah. @ elevenarrows(that is your new nickname. deal with it!),
my friend picked up ice climbers now. Ftilt is soooo useful keeping them off of you.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

=( That's going to confuse me and make me make typos.

You got me, I haven't yet had the chance to play any good ICs with Marth... I'd assume fairs and dtilts would work better though.

 

[IrArby]

Yea I haven't play good ICs either but I know you'll want to stay in the air alot using fairs so you don't get grabbed.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Elevenarrows, yeah I do those too. Ken vs Chudat.

DUDES!!! Eleven, IrArby! I got videos of myself now! check it out.
www.youtube.com/user/AceDudeyeah
My vids are on my profile page. I'm AceDude, obviously. haha

When I get a video of the Ice climbers vs Marth, you might see that he's not that good and I get away with ftilts. No chance I'm going to play someone like Chudat soon. Just neighborhood kids.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Will do. I'll post some critiques on your thread.

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

I haven't found anything specific like this stickied, so lemme know, or help me out yourself. Thanks.

So I play this Doc main, pretty good, but with a defensive, gimpy/gay style (only goes for chaingrabs, throws off the edge and capes whenever possible, with abuse of that unbelievably broken sweetspot Doc has on the ledge). However, I work his other characters pretty free but I have a few questions regarding Doc

He Jab>Shield grabs beats out SO many of my options, often through my Fairs.. How do I deal with this?

Secondly, his runaway Pill>waveland>repeat is hard to get around because if I parry with Fair or Jab, it keeps me still long enough to get hit with a second one, or Jab>Grabbed or running Dash Canceled Dsmash

Lastly, the repeated Bthrow to Bairs or Cape. There doesn't seem to be enough options to get around the gayness. It is far too easy to gimp with Doc.

 

[AIDS]

I haven't found anything specific like this stickied, so lemme know, or help me out yourself. Thanks.

So I play this Doc main, pretty good, but with a defensive, gimpy/gay style (only goes for chaingrabs, throws off the edge and capes whenever possible, with abuse of that unbelievably broken sweetspot Doc has on the ledge). However, I work his other characters pretty free but I have a few questions regarding Doc

He Jab>Shield grabs beats out SO many of my options, often through my Fairs.. How do I deal with this?

Secondly, his runaway Pill>waveland>repeat is hard to get around because if I parry with Fair or Jab, it keeps me still long enough to get hit with a second one, or Jab>Grabbed or running Dash Canceled Dsmash

Lastly, the repeated Bthrow to Bairs or Cape. There doesn't seem to be enough options to get around the gayness. It is far too easy to gimp with Doc.

sounds like adecent doc, but videos would help for better advice.
MArth has more gay camping tricks! if you jab the pill you should always have enough time to jab the next, unless he is right next to you.
Spammers get anoyed when there projectiles don't work, this will lead to a dumb move by doc, abuse him!

More F through, F through combo's are good, but yes Bthrow Bair works well too.

Space your recovery, start by using your side B part, SAVE YOUR JUMP, use side B's first. more options to work around the edge guard, and you can jump arial near the edge. get better at fast fall edge hogs, when you wavedash on to the edge, tap down, you will fast fall for a sec and get on the edge much faster, just make sure to not fast fall past the point where you grab the edge.

dash dancing is a big part to marths game, to have a good dash dance, make it was wide as possable, get usto putting that in your play, thats a big part to your game.

Marth beats Doc, try these simple tips for now, post a video if you get a chance.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Wait... what? I'm pretty sure Doc can't chaingrab Marth. And there are a lot of things you can do against the Cape, like fairs while you recover or, if you save your second jump, fastfalling, doublejumping to his other side and bairing him outwards.

Jab to shieldgrab? Why is he close enough to jab you? Space yourself out better and if he gets closeish, just grab him. There's no way that he should be beating your fairs with the jab, by the way, unless your spacing is really off.

There're a lot of things you can do against pill to wavelands. Try nairs or shdfs or shielding the pill and grabbing his approach. You could also shield the pill and jump out of shield into a fair or just rush him while he's jumping for a quick dash attack or run past him into a CC turn around fsmash or Tree grab or something. Heck, you could even Counter the pill in his face when he rushes you.

Doc's bthrow gives you a ton of warning. Try DI'ing up and then dair spiking him when he jumps towards you, or fairing him away, depending on the height. Again, you can Counter him if nothing else works.

Abuse your range and edgeguarding. Doc gimps people well, but he gets gimped pretty easily too. Marth against Doc really shouldn't be a hard match-up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE6euEu52WU

 

[IrArby]

Yea if hes gonna rush in after the pill>waveland you can proably counter him or at least sheild the pill and grab him since your grab range is much better. Actually, come to think of it you can crouch under (or at least crouch cancel) pills and kill his approach with a dtilt. Just get underneath his full jumped pills any way you can. Retreating Nairs are probably better then fairs to cancel pills and stop his approach but thats more IMO.

Theres some really good advice from cacutar that I read some where that he advises with any char who likes to spam projectiles just camp just outside of Fsmash range. They'll think twice about spamming their projectiles since that can leave them vulnerable.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

You could try psyching him out too. Go to Final Destination and just walk at him. Jab his pills and jab/fsmash away all of his approaches. Eventually you'll push him to the edge of the stage. Rinse and repeat. He's not going to outrange you and he's most likely not going to outmaneuver you.

If you can even deny three things he does in a row, it can really mess with peoples' heads.

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

You could try psyching him out too. Go to Final Destination and just walk at him. Jab his pills and jab/fsmash away all of his approaches. Eventually you'll push him to the edge of the stage. Rinse and repeat. He's not going to outrange you and he's most likely not going to outmaneuver you.

If you can even deny three things he does in a row, it can really mess with peoples' heads.

I do that sometimes, I'll empty sh, waveland, away from his shield grab range (he expects Fair/ Nair) walk past him and Fsmash.Or run past, dash dance behind him and wait for him to roll/dodge.

He often techs my Fthrows in place and Dthrows near the edges a lot, what is the better option, Fair, Dtilt?.. fsmash seems to fail at tech chases on the floor.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

If you're near the edge, I'd just wait and fsmash him. It works, just... work on your timing.

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

If you're near the edge, I'd just wait and fsmash him. It works, just... work on your timing.

Thats not always an option vs doc.. when recovering he can downB, 2nd jump with pill and upB. so its hard to edgehog him, and his upB beats out most of marths moves.

I came up with a solution on my own though..

running fulljump Bair off the ledge to turn around and Bair him as he is doing his downB or jump/pill.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

...wait what? I thought we were talking about tech chases? @_@

His Super Jump Punch definitely does not beat out Marth's moves. If worst comes to worst, just Counter it.

What you should really do is edgehog then ledgehop a bair at him or just drop straight into a bair for the edgeguard. Or drop into a Counter. It's sneaky and cool and doesn't work that much but it's still cool.

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

...wait what? I thought we were talking about tech chases? @_@

His Super Jump Punch definitely does not beat out Marth's moves. If worst comes to worst, just Counter it.

What you should really do is edgehog then ledgehop a bair at him or just drop straight into a bair for the edgeguard. Or drop into a Counter. It's sneaky and cool and doesn't work that much but it's still cool.

Oh right, thought you were replying to the earlier post.

but yeah, edgegaurding doc isnt that free. His sweetspot is rediculous. So ledgehopping Bairs sometimes pops me back up in the air when he sees it and upBs through.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Well even though his sweetspot may be huge, he only has small place where he can start up his recovery. Just aim a bair at that and you'll be fine.

 

[otg]

Lol Sam, you beat my other characters free? GTFO, we go even all the time, I don't know who you're trying to impress when you say that. As for the Doc vs. Marth, Marth has a lot more options than Doc, but the main reason I win a lot is because:

A.) I have tons of Marth experience (everyone and their sister uses Marth)
B.) Even good Marth players fall into bad habits (predictable Fsmash) which gets you punished.
C.) Doc ***** Marth when he gets close.

I'm not nearly as campy as you say, in fact I would say I'm overly aggressive most of the time and it's why I get punished by stupid mistakes. Marth definitely has the edge against Doc, but the Match up is no where near as bad as Phanna's matchup chart might lead you to believe.

I don't have time to leave insight, but the few things I would say are:

- Marth is faster/has more range/better dash dancing etc than Doc, use that to your advantage.
- Don't rely on DDing to look for opening, Doc's range can be misleading with Ftilt, Pills, Dsmash etc.
- Doc has tons of options off the stage, and if I sweetspot counter misses. I'm also doing a new thing where I recover above the stage instead of going for the ledge, so to say "just Bair him" doesn't really work.
- Oh and last thing, don't get mad because I go for gimps and what not. That's like complaining about Fox shine-spiking you. Thats part of the character and his matchups, get used to it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

=P Dashdancing for an opening against Doc? I'd just space fairs and cut through everything he does.

I was talking about edgehogging to a drop into a Counter. You can recover from it even if the Counter doesn't work so it's nice... although I think you can be edgehogged afterwards, so it's not good to use it too much. Bairing should work though, as long as you space it correctly. I mean... there are a lot of ways you can use it. Ledgehopping it backwards, dropping straight into it or ledgehopping it onto the stage.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

=P Dashdancing for an opening against Doc? I'd just space fairs and cut through everything he does.

I was talking about edgehogging to a drop into a Counter. You can recover from it even if the Counter doesn't work so it's nice... although I think you can be edgehogged afterwards, so it's not good to use it too much. Bairing should work though, as long as you space it correctly. I mean... there are a lot of ways you can use it. Ledgehopping it backwards, dropping straight into it or ledgehopping it onto the stage.