Marth Q&A-Ask your questions here!!

[Stewie1288]

Ah...pulsewalking. I already do that to some extent, just didn't know the term for it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I can't think of any matches offhand where the Marth pulsewalks... I think there was a Magus match, but I'll have to find it... something about a ridiculous grab range or something.

The wavedash should be just long enough so that your wavedash lag ends as you stop moving. Of course, this can change for mindgames if needed.

EDIT: Aha, found it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=B6VG3P6wgDs

It's just one cycle, but look at 2:17.

 

[Stewie1288]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but it's just a series of "Dash forward>WD back" to screw with the spacing right?

 

[IrArby]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but it's just a series of "Dash forward>WD back" to screw with the spacing right?

In a word, yes. You nailed it.

Question: I learned from a Melee Pro LOZR that in Marth dittos you can often use a nair and hit the top of Marth's head even while shielding and knock him out of his shield. Additionally, I've recently seen quite a few Cactuar Marth dittos where he does late upairs into an opponents shield. I presumed at first that this was merely a method to put hitstun on their shield and escape the shieldgrab. However, I noticed that the upairs tended to hit quite often and I doubt that a lot of Pro Smashers like Taj in this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0GoW3Wqap8 (2:35 and 3:38 specifically)

would lower their shields early yet they still get hit. Does the late Upair do something similar to what I described by hitting some part of Marth (or other characters for that matter) sticking out of his shield or is this merely the fault of the other Marth dropping his shield too early?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Well if you didn't already know, Marth's shield is pretty crappy. It's not as bad as Game and Watch's or Donkey Kong's, but he still gets shieldstabbed fairly easily by low and high attacks. I learned that the hard way from my dsmash-whoring Link-playing friend.

At full shields, you should be able to take most of the hits, but even with a small amount of shield decay, you'll start getting shieldstabbed everywhere, especially by people like Ness.

But yeah, I think they're actually clipping his head with the uair, just because of the angle and hitbox of the uair. If you haven't already, download Seanson's hitbox system. It's really really nice.

I think that's actually one of the reasons Ganon is considered an even matchup for Marth - his fair arcs up to down, which tends to clip Marth on the head.

 

[IrArby]

Actually, I didn't know that Marth had a crummy shield. I'm self-taught so to speak and I never read much about it in all the guides and advice threads and what have you so its news to me.

I'm really pissed and frustrated since I thought I had almost all of my tech skill stuff down for Marth only to learn that I wasn't canceling my Fairs correctly which is why I was having trouble comboing but my edgeguarding was really strong and I didn't get gimped easily. Going back now and trying to learn it with the Cstick is frustrating cause its basics to me and I keep falling back into old habits using the analog stick. That and I need a new controller since the Analog Stick on my current one is too insensitive. (Sounds more like I'm *****ing about a girlfriend rather than my ****ing controller)

I'll incorporate the Uair trick which isn't difficult since I don't have problems using the Cstick for Uairs or Dairs. Thanks for the info again this explains why I've been getting punished in my shield occasionally and I'll be sure to seach for Seanson's hitbox system later today.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah you don't really notice that Marth has a crappy shield until you start getting shieldstabbed by people who ***** low-hitting moves. Or you could try playing as someone with a better shield and you'll see the difference.

It's no big deal though, I started out with just edgeguarding and high fairs because I thought L-canceling was all that mattered in the shffl. It's pretty easy to change over the rhythm and use the C-stick, actually, so I wouldn't sweat it.

The uair always seems iffy to me. But anyway, after a while, you'll start seeing the gaps where their shield doesn't cover and you can hit them with dtilts and whatnot.

 

[Proverbs]

Two Questions.

1. How do you get Seanson's hitbox system to work? I have no idea how to get either the offline or online version to run correctly. I just get a grey box-thing.

2. Why do I see the majority of professional Marth's using their mid-air jumps really early in their recovery? I once watched some Marth tutorial video when I was still learning the basics of Smash which told me to save my mid-air jump until I reached the stage.

Once I tried doing this I immediately saw myself being able to recover MUCH more easily. Many more options were opened up. If I'm recovering and an opponent is edgehogging I have the chance to mid-air jump and then attack and then use Dolphin Slash. Or if I'm getting back to the stage, instead falling toward the edge after using my mid-air jump, I can just use the mid-air jump to grab the edge. This is better because I am closer to, almost hugging the edge if I do it the former way. The latter way allows me to keep a safe distance from the edge so I don't get easily edgeguarded. My opponent would have to jump off the edge to attack me and even then I have the choice of using either my mid-air jump or Dolphin Blade to evade or strike back.

If I want to sweetspot the edge when an opponent is looking to edgeguard, instead of first using my mid-air jump and later letting myself drop until I'm at the right height, I can not use my mid-air jump and possibly be exactly at the right height to use Dolphin Blade to sweetspot. Otherwise if I let myself fall to use Dolphin Blade to sweetspot, I would give my opponent time to edgehog. And if I need to use my mid-air jump to sweetspot, I can do that as well.

And while keeping my mid-air jump I have the opportunity to stall much more and am made much more unpredictable. When I reach the edge I have the opportunity to use either Dancing Blade or my mid-air jump to stall if my opponent is looking to strike quickly, giving me multiple opportunities to fake them out. Whereas if I use my mid-air jump early, I don't get the extra boost of it later on when I might need to f-air an edgeguarding opponent.

I become less predictable around the edge if I save the jump, so can anyone tell me why most pros seem to use the jump either at the beginning or midway through their recovery?

 

[Cactuar]

I use late uairs because of the increased shield stun, not to shield stab. When it does hit, it is easier to combo out of than fair, although it is still easy with fair as well.

Avoiding getting hit through your shield by a nairing Marth in dittos is as easy as tilting your shield up or wavedashing backwards out of shield. Nairing in like that will fail against good Marth players.


Also, I don't know what you mean about most pro Marth players using their jumps early. Which Marth players are you talking about, and in what time period? I rarely use my double jump until it is necessary (double jump sweet spot the ledge or double jump to pressure someone off from edgehogging). There are a lot of situations where we are pressured into double jumping before we need to by someone doing an aggressive edge guard tactic. If you save your double jump to the point you are talking about, a pro Marth player will likely get the kill on you by any choice of edgeguarding options. Marth's off stage game is very good vs Marth. You are really forcing yourself into a position in which you are going to have to upb to the ledge, and fsmash actually can't be sweetspotted against from underneath. The only two options you have at that point are to go for a close to the stage sweetspot and ledgetech (or not), or to go for a distanced from the stage up b and hope they were expecting the close sweetspot.

I could go on about this for a while, but I'm tired. If you have a more specific question about it, please ask.

 

[Falcinho]

Why doesn't anyone use sh fair to waveland

It looks that COOL

 

[IrArby]

No worries Cactuar I wouldn't consider myself a good Marth Player nor are most of the people I play. I'm currently relearning how to L-cancel my Fairs properly WTF. Thanks again next time I could save you the trouble and post questions specific to how you play in your thread but I just wanted to avoid doing the noob thing and popping out of nowhere saying "Hey Cactuar, you're like really good. How do I SHDF?". Also, props to elvenarrow3000 for holding down the Melee boards.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I try to save my doublejump unless I'm playing against a Fox. If you doublejump then Dolphin Slash, then you're going basically straight up, which telegraphs your recovery and opens you up for a shine or nair or something.

Did you download the right files? There should be a... FileFront, I think, with them. The online version doesn't work for me either. Make sure you have Java.

I've never really found a use for fair to waveland... seems like you'd just get grabbed out of the waveland or whatever...

 

[ArcNatural]

Why doesn't anyone use sh fair to waveland

It looks that COOL

Because if you do sh early fairs as an approach your going to get punished for it most of the time. I suppose retreating sh fairs to waveland could have some utility without leaving yourself too open though.

 

[Ijuka]

Because if you do sh early fairs as an approach your going to get punished for it most of the time. I suppose retreating sh fairs to waveland could have some utility without leaving yourself too open though.

At high %'s I once did a fair - waveland - fsmash yesterday. The fsmash missed though. All in all, I consider fair-waveland useless. Almost as useless as pulse walking. :/

 

[Peck]

I have a question-why did they make Roy's attacks the same as Marth's.

 

[IrArby]

The only two uses for Fair to Waveland that I would actually use are Retreating Fair to Waveland and say I go for a SHDF, miss the first Fair, and my opponent miraculously misses the chance to punish me and I Waveland Backwards. All in all its not very useful. If you want to surprise someone with an offessive type waveland empty SH's are better.

Peck: Many of Roy's Attacks resemble Marth's however, they are used completely differently. If you didn't already know, Marth uses the tip of his sword whereas Roy uses the center. Roy doesn't have the combo potential of Marth's aerials which are what much of his metagame is centered around along with punishing people out of grabs and his excellent edgeguarding. To illustrate the differences between the two refer to youtube and search for Neo playing as Roy. Compare how he plays Roy to any number of good Marths: Ken M2K Cactuar Cort . . . the list goes on. Long story short, they are worlds apart and Marth definetly has the edge both against Roy and against other characters aswell.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

=( I like pulsewalking...

Roy is pretty different from Marth. He tends to use his side-B a lot more and his dtilt to combo. He would probably also use the uair instead of the utilt.

The spacing is obviously going to be different too.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

whats the best thing to when sum1s pressuring(pillaring) the back of your shield?
shffl uair?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I'd say buffer a roll away with the C-stick and get ready to be rushed. If you're feeling daring, you could buffer a jump and dair them... gawd, no pun intended.

 

[ArcNatural]

You can also just lightshield when you see them approach you can often shieldgrab them with Marth's incredible grab range from this. But yeah, if they are on the back of your shield your best option is to buffer a roll especially if they don't mess up. You won't be able to shffl anything if they do it perfectly.

 

[puckgood]

Hey....

I have a few Q's on AT's. I've heard of double jump canceling and know it doesn't apply to marth, but what is it? And also, what is a barrel role? I only just started seeing that on the boards. Thank you very much.

 

[ArcNatural]

Hey....

I have a few Q's on AT's. I've heard of double jump canceling and know it doesn't apply to marth, but what is it? And also, what is a barrel role? I only just started seeing that on the boards. Thank you very much.

Double jump canceling doesn't have any relevance to Marth. I think Double jump canceling refers to characters like Ness, Peach and I think Yoshi who can cancel their second jump by aerial attacking.

Barrel Roll is just a gaming joke from Starfox. Normally refers to evading your opponent. Magus Tech <-- This is one of my favorite references to doing a barrel roll.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Mewtwo can DJC as well.

 

[puckgood]

Awesome, thanks.... I feel like an idiot now :-) What's a good counterpick stage (or character, for that matter) for Roy? I can play some Sheik and Fox and a little bit of Link for the characters. Thanks again.

 

[IrArby]

elvenarrow3000: I've been working on perfectly canceling my fairs all of the time and made good progress though not as much as I'd hoped. Two questions.

1. Is the timing different if the fair is tipped or if you screw it up an hit closer to the center?

2. Would you say when you shffl a fair there is a noticeable time between hitting down and then the Cstick. Is there a slight pause where you're just FFing or isn't it pretty close to one after the other than you L cancel?

I feel stupid since I discovered one of the main reasons I wasn't getting any of my Fairs right earlier was I didn't hold down all the way through (after I actually throw out the fair). Yea I have a tendency to grasp the difficult concepts whilst overlooking the obvious ones.

 

[ArcNatural]

elvenarrow3000: I've been working on perfectly canceling my fairs all of the time and made good progress though not as much as I'd hoped. Two questions.

1. Is the timing different if the fair is tipped or if you screw it up an hit closer to the center?

2. Would you say when you shffl a fair there is a noticeable time between hitting down and then the Cstick. Is there a slight pause where you're just FFing or isn't it pretty close to one after the other than you L cancel?

I feel stupid since I discovered one of the main reasons I wasn't getting any of my Fairs right earlier was I didn't hold down all the way through (after I actually throw out the fair). Yea I have a tendency to grasp the difficult concepts whilst overlooking the obvious ones.

1. Yes. Have you ever tipped a Fsmash into shield? Tipped has different lag.

2. Depends on when you fair, late fairs are almost instant. I usually fastfall before fairing if it's late. If your fairing before fastfalling and your trying to make it close to the ground I think your doing it wrong. I recommend doing the plug in an extra controller turn handicap on and use the 2nd controller as a Bowser handicap 9 with your handicap 1. Very effective at helping you learn to spam shffls and l-cancel correctly depending on when you do it. You can also just turn stars on if you want to mimic shield lag somewhat.

It's important to make sure not to hit down while in the lag. This is really noticeable with Cpt. Falcon if you do the above tactic and try to spam shffl knees and dairs. You need to learn when the lag ends.

3. I don't know what your talking about with holding down all the way through. Pretty sure you don't need to hold down to keep fast falling.

 

[Vodage]

I'm having a lot of trouble getting used to wavedashing instead of rolling. I think most of the problem is that my WD is hella inconsistent. Sometimes I full jump, and sometimes I'm holding L for too long meaning my only option is wavegrab. I roll hella too often. The only char I can consistently WD with is Samus for some reason, but I really want to be a marth main. I can L-cancel, but I usually do SH N-airs which autocancel anyways. But my Marth kindof sucks. Last tourney I went to, I did better with Sheik.

I forgot what the question was

oh umm lol I was going to ask since I do all this rolling should I just say **** it and switch to Brawl but I like Melee I just don't like where my Marth is at rite now

Umm...

yea.

 

[IrArby]

Thanks Arcnatural.

Though this makes Shffling my fairs perfectly look more intimidating now since the timings going to be different depending on where I hit. I won't be able to do it all consistently with one single timing.

What I mean by holding down is normally I'd tap down hard quickly, then aerial, then L-Cancel. When you hit the opponent your FF slows slightly ofcourse but it seems to slow down less if you keep holding down until you L-Cancel your move.

It really would have been a lot easier to have had someone teaching me when I first started. I'm so freaking frustrated by Fairs at this point now. Plus, theres no Melee players out there anymore. But, I digest.

Thanks for your help again.

 

[SHDW23]

vodage:
if you want to get good at anything you need to practice. nothing anyone is going to tell you is going to make you instantly good at playing marth. you'll notice everyone has their own style of play, you need to find yours

 

[elvenarrow3000]

If you want perfect fairs, watch the arc. You should be landing at the point where the fair is extended most for spacing reasons, so it should look like a quarter circle, if that makes sense.

You only have to tap down to fastfall. Holding down doesn't change anything. It's a good habit to get into, 'cause if you get hit by like an fsmash or something during it, you'll be able to react and DI faster.

The hitlag will be different depending on where you hit with, but it will be by a frame, at most.

As for wavedashing, it's just practice. Remember to let go of the shield button as soon as you tap it, and the control stick as well. Same for teching and L-canceling. It doesn't matter how long you hold it, if you got it, you'll get it, and if you didn't get it, you'll miss it. No use messing yourself up further.

Keep in mind that wavedashing isn't a replacement for rolling. It's just another spacing mechanism that you can use. Rolling is not good for spacing, generally speaking, as rolls are rather slow.

 

[SHDW23]

not to mention you can not control the length of a roll like you can with a wavedash, which is crucial for spacing

 

[SHDW23]

i stumbled on something interesting yesterday. i was shffling a bair but forgot the l-cancel, but the move had no lag when i hit the ground, kinda like the autocanceled nair. i managed to do it a couple of times, but haven't been able to repeat it since. does this actually work, or was something else going on?

 

[brawlpro]

H 4 X

 

[ArcNatural]

i stumbled on something interesting yesterday. i was shffling a bair but forgot the l-cancel, but the move had no lag when i hit the ground, kinda like the autocanceled nair. i managed to do it a couple of times, but haven't been able to repeat it since. does this actually work, or was something else going on?

You can jump out of a sh bair before you hit the ground. It you fast fall it you need to L-cancel, but if you don't ff you can autocancel before even hit the ground.

 

[SHDW23]

you're saying canceling by jumping, right? i wasn't jumping out of it. i haven't been able to do it again so maybe i was canceling it in some way i wasn't aware of...

 

[IrArby]

Its not a very long aerial. What Arcnatural is saying is, the move ends before you hit the ground which why there was no landing lag.

 

[SHDW23]

i got that part. i was landing but not even couching like you do every time you land, i was just standing as soon as i hit the ground... i don't know...

 

[ArcNatural]

i got that part. i was landing but not even couching like you do every time you land, i was just standing as soon as i hit the ground... i don't know...

Even an auto-canceled nair has the normal landing animation, you can practically move instantly out of it (what is it 4-5 landing frames?) It's the same as an autocancel bair, except you can fastfall and still autocancel the nair, you can't fastfall if you want the bair to autocancel. And by fastfall, I mean the peak of the sh, you probably could somewhat fastfall this is you wait a little later.

 

[Stewie1288]

What are the advantages/disadvantages of a JC grab vs. a standing grab in the context of chaingrabbing spacies/fastfallers? I seem to have more success with standing grabs during the re-grabs but use JC grabs in pretty much all other situations.

Is there a startup lag on the jump for the JC grabs thats avoided by a standing grab? (no access to frame data at work)

Also, on a sidenote, I've seen a lot of CG combos go as follows: u-throws>u-tilts>f-smash>edgeuard. Recently I've seen a few vids of a marth working in an u-air in between the u-tilts and f-smash. Is this a personal preference or is it to combat a certain DI?

<3 Melee.

 

[ArcNatural]

JC grabs have a few frames more lag than standing grabs. The reason to switching between standing grabs and jc grabs is after 17 or 19% with Fox and a little higher against Falco they can DI out of standing grab range. Ideally if you can stand grab someone and don't need to move, standing grab is technically faster.

Personal preference. I can smash DI out of Marth uptilts with Fox, it's really not that hard. Little variations like that keep people offgaurd. Ken has upthrown to nair to fulljump fair to dair. I've seen upthrow shffl fair to fsmash. It's all preference and what you feel like will work. Or if you are up a couple of stocks and feel like trying to show off.