Ignore.

[Rhyme]

Well then, thank you for pointing that out. I'll be sure to change it at some point...I think...>.>

The Samus/Ness matchup has recently been discussed here so you may not get as much input as you'd like.

 

[Cherry64]

Haha I've visited that before, Its just about what the characters good at. We can out spam you. That says it all. your hand to hand is better than ours.

Hmm well we clearly have diff play styles Lol.

 

[DelxDoom]

ness should own the s out of samus

I think, Dryn, that Dark.Pch was saying that he could have many options even with turnip in hand because you can do aerials while holding a turnip while floating. then you started making ******** arguments

Metaknight should own the s out of samus

You have to play a specific way vs Ike, stuff his aerials with zair but keep to the ground to stop jabs with shield and space so you don't get grabbed.

 

[Hive]

metaknight DOES own the s out of samus lol...or is someone arguing otherwise?

 

[Ravin]

He does in aspects of close combat. Play keep away xD but still, Samus does get owned unless you start to predict the MK, which lower levels is fine, but like MK, Dojo, ect Its not going to happen.

 

[Sago]

as far as metaknight you need to use bombs. bombs, and mre bombs. Nothing messes up tornado or fast approaches/ grabs like a good bomb

 

[Kain6th]

Hey Xyro can you write up something on Samus vs. Sonic next? Just a request. I'd love to read some great strategies against him.

 

[Xyro77]

as far as metaknight you need to use bombs. bombs, and mre bombs. Nothing messes up tornado or fast approaches/ grabs like a good bomb

Dear god.......

Hey Xyro can you write up something on Samus vs. Sonic next? Just a request. I'd love to read some great strategies against him.

Sure, ill use sonic as the next low tier on the list.




To ALL: after my tourney this weekend i will update the list. Please write an article on these charactrs guys. If you dont know the match-up, then do write one.

 

[Eddie G]

Xyro, instead of just saying a one-liner to that bomb idea, why not correct it if you disagree with him? Come on now.

 

[Xyro77]

Xyro, instead of just saying a one-liner to that bomb idea, why not correct it if you disagree with him? Come on now.

Alot of people disagree with me but i come from the melee days where bombs were used to DAMGE, set up tricks,gimp and stop foes from aproaching.

In brawl:

bombs have a timer. foes can rush past them.

bombs dont gimp. unless the foe is a ******.

bombs do not allow tricks. the times that they DO allow tricks, samus had better options in that situation.

samus cannot do ANY thing out of a bomb. in melee she could do MANY things out of bombs.






bombs are good for refreshing moves. thats about it.

HOWEVER, i welcome ALL of you to discovery uses for bombs. It may enchance samus's game. But as far as im concerne, its worthless.

 

[Hive]

using bombs to get around tornado becomes so predictable and punishable very fast... I know i've tried this before-> it doesn't work as well as you'd think . mainly because metaknight can wait a half second and tornado you in between bomb spams, jump over the bomb and aerial, tornado you at a distance that you can't set up the bomb in time, or tornado through the bomb before it blows up, depending on the situation. bombs against mk's tornado can still be used occassionally though as a preventative measure if you know he's going to tornado, and i still do occassionally but its not consistent enough i believe to actually be very valuable in a match...

and i agree with xyro that i don't use bombs all that much... they are ok i guess, but i find that dtilt outprioritizes them in almost all situations on stage or a retreating fair, and offstage i think dair does. the main points i do use them for though is recovery, air DI, and ledgehop bombing on and off the stage to refresh your tethers, oh and maybe also possibly to land on platforms with limited vertical space. i don't even really use them to refresh moves either lol. But then again i haven't experimented with them a lot either, so...

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Ledgehop -> bomb and rolling onto the stage with a stationary bomb looks too cool. But that's really the only thing.

Bombs suck.

Maybe run off stage and bomb, and roll back onto the stage for edgeguard with bomb?

Idk.

 

[Crystanium]

I was using Bombs yesterday in Melee. My brother was playing as Ganondorf and beating me up, so I used Samus, and whenever he'd try to return, I'd use Bombs and it would blow him up, stunning him so I could f-smash him.

Melee Bombs > Brawl Bombs

They were useful when, you know, they blew up on contact.

 

[Rhyme]

You have to play a specific way vs Ike, stuff his aerials with zair but keep to the ground to stop jabs with shield and space so you don't get grabbed.

I hate fighting Ike as Samus. The entire matchup is spent by Samus trying to predict which of Ike's two options he will use so that she can counter. And it feels like each of Ike's options has exactly one good option from Samus. =/ Ike generally tries to rush me, so I find that I spend a majority of this match trying to outrush him, which actually works pretty well against most Ike's since they're usually not used to opponents rushing them. At least not a Samus, anyway.

metaknight DOES own the s out of samus lol...or is someone arguing otherwise?

I'll argue otherwise. And I've played some pretty decent MKs (as Samus) before (Inui, DMBrandon, Shadow, Spam and M2K are in that list). It never feels like I'm being overwhelmed, just that I'm making bad decisions. I can always figure out a viable option in my mind for avoiding whatever just hit me so it's kinda hard for me to see the matchup as overwhelming. Definitely never will be in Samus' favor though.

Sure, ill use sonic as the next low tier on the list.

Please write an article on these charactrs guys.

I support that decision.

But not this one. Honestly, I feel like the degenerate format is more productive. The very nature of our making it more difficult to organize the OP is an added incentive to KEEP ACTIVE in the matchup discussion so that you DON'T MISS ANYTHING important. I feel like we're talking more fluidly when we're allowed to post our feelings in a less formal manner.

If you dont know the match-up, then do write one.

Is this a mod making a funny or did you really just say that?

Alot of people disagree with me but i come from the melee days where bombs were used to DAMGE, set up tricks,gimp and stop foes from aproaching.

What are you TALKING about? Samus' bombs in Brawl have the two greatest uses evar.

1) Pick port 4. downB on shielding opponent. DI into their face. Interrupts shield grab for free Dtilt.

2) Use Dtilt/Ftilt/Zair to create pressure when your opponent is on the ledge. Predict the fatal mistake of the get up->shield. Run at ledge->dB a stand-up distance away from ledge. Edge cancel bomb animation->double jump Dair. Bomb nudges them off the stage and into your spike for the humiliation.

Don't disrespect the bombs. Above all else, they're just ****ing pretty and fun. : )

 

[Hive]

the only time i believe samus has a real chance against metaknight is when they do not know what they are doing in the matchup... i know this sounds exaggerated, but i will really argue this to the death.
Me and xyro have both got 1-2 stocked in games vs. dsf and m2k... this matchup is just way too much in mks favor I believe.

 

[Xyro77]

What are you TALKING about? Samus' bombs in Brawl have the two greatest uses evar.

1) Pick port 4. downB on shielding opponent. DI into their face. Interrupts shield grab for free Dtilt.

2) Use Dtilt/Ftilt/Zair to create pressure when your opponent is on the ledge. Predict the fatal mistake of the get up->shield. Run at ledge->dB a stand-up distance away from ledge. Edge cancel bomb animation->double jump Dair. Bomb nudges them off the stage and into your spike for the humiliation.

Don't disrespect the bombs. Above all else, they're just ****ing pretty and fun. : )

I almost never use a bombs but this port 4 thing sounds interesting. COuld you please take this to the ultimate samus data base or the "beyond chozo guide"? I really would like to learn but we are getting off topic here.

 

[Crystanium]

Is this a mod making a funny or did you really just say that?

Xyro77 isn't a moderator.

 

[Rhyme]

the only time i believe samus has a real chance against metaknight is when they do not know what they are doing in the matchup... i know this sounds exaggerated, but i will really argue this to the death.
Me and xyro have both got 1-2 stocked in games vs. dsf and m2k... this matchup is just way too much in mks favor I believe.

Well, MK can be picked off of the ground by a SHDair if you space it correctly. Mix that up with shielding and some standard smart camping and MK should have at least some difficulty starting a combo on you. The major way that he combos is by fooling opponents with his weird variety of hitboxes and causing them to DI into crap, but you can avoid that to a degree by learning how to anticipate which move he will use and working to avoid his better combo starting moves.

And I feel that I should clarify. I've been describing mid-range fighting, which isn't really that at all. Mid range, for me, is rapidly switching between camping and agro in order to keep your opponent off balance. You're effectively hovering near the mid-range marker because you're crossing it so frequently. It's a little different and more complicated than simply mid-range spacing, but I usually like the payout.

I almost never use a bombs but this port 4 thing sounds interesting. COuld you please take this to the ultimate samus data base or the "beyond chozo guide"? I really would like to learn but we are getting off topic here.

I don't have a Wii to test it right now. It's at my friend's house because he hosted a tournament and wanted to use it. Overall it's a silly mindgame though, because a smart opponent won't fall for it twice and then all you get is a Dsmash to the face if you're not careful. >.> But like everything else it has its uses as a mix-up. And besides, it's just plain fun to hit people with ridiculous, unexpected stuff for purposes of being able to say that that just happened, lol.

Hitting people with stupid stuff IS a mindgame if your opponent doesn't know what they're doing. If someone of equal skill will let that 'get to them' then it could cost them the match. You just need to recognize signs that it's getting to them.

Xyro77 isn't a moderator.

I thought maybe a moderator edited his post for lulz. What he said kinda didn't make sense, you know?

 

[Ravin]

What Does Xyro ever say that makes complete sense? :D

 

[Serris]

Disregard this epic fail.

 

[Ravin]

No... Hes right.

6,7,8,9.

You failed.

 

[Cherry64]

Nice try though Serris. Lol it's the fact that counts as one.
Guess xyro went to math class

 

[Sago]

tomorrow im recording a 2/3 with hungers mk to demonstrate how good bombs are

 

[Rhyme]

What Does Xyro ever say that makes complete sense? :D

Sshh...; )

tomorrow im recording a 2/3 with hungers mk to demonstrate how good bombs are

While I'm excited to see this, the sadistic side of me (which is a rather ****ing large side of me tbh) hopes that you get ***** and look silly.

 

[DelxDoom]

I'm pretty sure I know the theory behind bombs vs Metaknight lol

space so that you can't get dashed at to the point that he'll punish your bombs easily and just retreat with like 4 bombs, then shoot more missiles

also preemptively grab, the better you are at grabbing the better chance you have in any Samus matchup

 

[Hive]

basically and the theory is that also they cancel out his tornado, although mks will usually rip out tornado during spams or moves not usually giving you as much time to react as people expect...
idk that's my exp at least. i have tried bomb spamming before too, it just didn't work well for me at all.

 

[DelxDoom]

yeah rohins beat my mk on wifi some time ago

i think because i only use tornado like 2 times per match

yeah rohins!!!

 

[Crystanium]

The Mach Tornado increases its priority when it is being used fully. So, if it's at the start-up, a Super Missile or even z-air can stop it. Bombs also work.

 

[Xyro77]

stop talking about bombs here. take it to the USD. Dryn, would you start infracting people.

Also, i playe dpraxis(best/2nd west coast peach) i record about 11 vids. Ill have them up and a article up soon. ill also add more chaacters to the fornt page.

 

[Sago]

okay so yesterday at my tourny i didnt play nearly as many matchs as i told you i would. I do have a few winners finals matchs where i went samus against falco though

 

[LanceStern]

Upload them Xyro and Sago!

And Rhyme, check out my Morph Ball Bomb Discussion topic and tell us about htis port 4 business. Like explain it.

 

[Xyro77]

man i left my wiimote at a friends house so praxis vids will wait.

 

[Metatitan]

I almost never use a bombs but this port 4 thing sounds interesting. COuld you please take this to the ultimate samus data base or the "beyond chozo guide"? I really would like to learn but we are getting off topic here.

both of those are in tudor's combo video, one done on a ness and i think the animation cancel one is done on an olimar? but idk

 

[Xyro77]

PEACH​

Chances of winning: 50-50 (based off of playing Kos-Mos and Praxis and Edreese)

How does Samus win/do well:

Projectiles/Z-air uses

Keep them coming at ALL TIMES. Do not allow peach to pull turnips or Float. By halting her floating abilities with zair or homing missles you have just knocked out her MAIN combo ability.If peach starts to float and she is at high %s, try an U-tilt. U-tilts KO if the foe is hit with one while in the air. Peach is the 24 lightest character and the 2nd floatiest character.


Charge Shot KOs and gimps.

Peach has the worst airdodge in the game(or at least top 3) and that means she can be hit out of her air dodge alot easier than most. If peach goes into the air, zair to charge shot. If she doesnt air dodge she will be hit, if she dos air dodge she will still mostlikely be hit due to her HORRIBE air dodge. Now for gimps, if peach is below stage, she will float for a bit and then UP+B to snap to the ledge. Walk of and charge shot if she tries to floast(shes a sitting target).


Smash DI

This is the MOST imporant ability you can have in the match-up. If peach EVER gets you in a Dair, smash DI up! How do you smash di? keep smashing both control sticks in the direction you want to go as you are being hit(the faster you do it the faster you can get out). This tech can save you from gaining 40-50% damage.



What should Samus watch out for:


Glide toss Turnips/Mr Saturns/Bombs/Swords.

I will not even try to explain, its WAY TOO scary. Go here and see why you should fear her item pulling abilities: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201383


Jab and Nair oos

Do not try and interupt peach jab. It comes out in 2 frames and it clanks with samus's UP+B. Nair is another SUPER fast move. If you attack her shield and u are near KO %s....expect this move.


Dair combos

If you fail to SDI or DI correctly peach can pull off 2 D-airs and end it with and N-air or U-air. This tasty little come can add 40-50% damage to samus. That is pretty much 1/4 of your stock from one combo. oh also, if she is coming down on you with a D-air, DO NOT CHALLENGE IT! The priority of that things is SIIIICK.


U-tilt and Up smash

U tilt actually does damage with the HEART animation that pops out of it. This means it gets massive range that can go through platforms. Up-smash can KO at very low %s and it also sucks you in if you are near by it.


B-Air trap/jab locks

yes peach can do them and just be sure to watch out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4sTCS7knCM


Down smash

This thing is wierd because it can do 18% damage, shield poke and or shield BREAK you. It also can spike you if you are hangin on the ledge and are too slow to attack from it.




What stages should Samus counter pick/Ban:

Counter Pick:

FD and pkmn 1 if you are the spammy type of samus and BF if you are the melee type samus.

Ban:

Luigis Mansion and Brinstar and Japes

 

[Jim Morrison]

I never played a good Samus, but I do sort of second her/know what beats what with/agsinst Sonic. When I'll get home, I'll throw in some info about Sonic. Not per say about the matchup, but more what Sonic can do.

 

[Fino]

Samus v olimar.... Good game.

I would pick up an olimar counter... ;D


~Fino

 

[A1lion835]

Are you really talking about 4 matchups at once? O_o

Anyway, I have to go soon, but I can say that we'll be walking towards you a lot and powershielding your projectiles, but you're floaty enough (floatier than kirby 0_o) so that you don't even have to SDI out of our fthrow->uair. Uh...g2g for now. I'll be back in the afternoon.

 

[Zigsta]

I've never played a really good Samus, but I do think that Samus does better against Ivysaur since all of Samus's fire attacks do double the knockback. To my knowledge, these fire-based attacks of Samus's aren't normally kill moves on many characters (Again, correct me if I'm wrong here, as I don't play many Samuses in Brawl period.), but against Ivysaur, they can easily become kill moves.

 

[darkNES386]

Sure, ill use sonic as the next low tier on the list.

LoL to like the week old post>invited today for discussion

First I just want to say hi to Rhyme, Sago and Fitch if he's in here ever since I know two of them in person and one online.... I never knew you played Samus Rhyme. Anyways, I thought i'd throw my two cents in on this matchup.

Let's clear this up 2 things before it gets out of control:

1)Sonic mindgames can't be factored into this matchup discussion. Instead let's say: "Both Sonic's groundspeed combined with both the ability to cancel many of his spin approaches and stop on a dime are his most useful spacing tools."

2)If the Sonic you face always attacks you from the opposite side of the screen with a spin attack then they are not the types of Sonic players that we should be discussing here. The successful Sonics understand that many attacks (probably the easiest one you've figured out is zair) beat Sonic's SDR (spin dash roll, either spin special once on the ground).

My personal opinion is that of all the characters that can play keep away with projectiles, Samus is the easiest for Sonic to deal with. This is primarily because Sonic's ground speed allows him to beat out homing missles from the air and because Sonic can spin under super missles.

Sonics like to edgehog grapple recoveries and force a more wreckless recovery. On that note, Sonic's spring pretty much rules out any easy gimps at lower percents from Samus' lovely dair. It has invincy frames too near the start so even if you think you finally guaranteed a hit on Sonic... chances are he'll spring right through you.

Samus is heavier than Sonic, but Sonic is a mid-weight so don't be surprised at how long he may be surviving. Also be aware of this:

There have been multiple accounts for a phenomenon that I will, for now and forever, dub the OMNOMNOM frames. At some point either right before or during landing, Sonic is in a state where he can "eat" destructible projectiles. Among these projectiles are... boomerangs, arrows, turnips, and fully charged 120%+ aura spheres.

So yeah... read this thread if you want to understand all about Sonic's spin moves:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170844

I've never played Sago's Samus in person, I don't even know if he was maining Samus last year early fall... anyways:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207173
http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=5822
I know you said you'd think about coming... maybe I'll see you there Sago.
You had some nice matches against Arty's Falco (I saw the vids, wasn't there to clarify).

This is kind of just to get things rolling... I really think Sonic has a slight advantage in this matchup simply because most of Samus' goals/strategies are difficult against Sonic's recovery and speed.

I also wrote this in the snake thread since they're discussing us too now:

Don't underestimate his speed, he gets across FD in 55 frames (60 fps = less than one second).

While Sonic suffers from lack of range/priority he still has some fancy little tricks to surprise/mislead his attack strengths:
-Usmash has invincy frames at the start that will even beat out DeDeDe upB and Game and Watch's key
-Uair is disjointed sidewayz on the first kick then slightly above the actual reach of his toes on the second... which gives it pretty wicked priority. I'm pretty sure it beats Snake's if released right.
-Fair, once again the final part of the move is slightly disjointed past Sonic's face when he twirls.
-Side Special, the initial first part of the hop animation has some invincy frames that will hop through everything
-Sonic's ASC (Aerial Spin Charge) has some crazy frames near landing during which it eats through projectiles, many of Snakes but I can't recall which ones right now.
-His ftilt has two hits upclose
-There are invcy frames at the start of his spring

Some other things I just thought of:
1) Players who like to play around on the edge are begging to eat a bair stage spike. This can be mixed up with dairs and also just obviously baiting the opponent to come back on stage. This is part of why Samus' ledge game is rather risky with Sonic.
2) Samus is rather floaty (understatement) so Sonic will have a hard time using his throws/CG even at low percent. I'm pretty sure Samus can even get in the air off of a Sonic dthrow (which by the way can be tech'ed almost instantly ... argh hold down and time the tech right).... this greatly reduces the effectiveness of his dthrow. Everyone who's serious is going to find out about this sooner or later so might as well share it with you now.

ps: Xyro is familiar with Espy and Mr.3000 among other Sonics. I'm sure this discussion wont' get out of hand.

pps or is it pss?: I didn't throw up a personal matchup ratio because I'm honestly not interested in the number right now. Just know that I feel it's actually one of Sonic's few favorable matchups (we don't have many because we're not fooling ourselves).

 

[Asdioh]

@_@

Kirby can take your power and shoot you.

He can duck under super missiles. He can avoid homing missiles pretty easily. Same with charge shots. Zair and Up B OOS are pretty effective against him. I guess this matchup is in Kirby's favor, but it's not too bad for Samus. They can both gimp each other if they predict correctly.

Too bad I have like, no Samus experience, at least not in 2009. Nobody plays Samus. :/
I play Samus (like my 6th most played character) but I'm not too great with her.