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Hive

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sonic is actually a harder match then I think most people give him credit for, not that i'm disagreeing with what your saying delxdoom (bc you're pretty much right), but he's actually very good at keeping her playstyle almost purely defensive (spam walls are basically out of the question, at least, in my exp).
sonic doesn't have too hard a time killing I think (not 200% at least...) he can get off the top kos pretty well and I think fsmash can be used pretty well too, which is slow but... not unreasonable given his spin cancels.
 

Lord Viper

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I'll force more Kirby mains to post more info. Basicly were getting lazy with match up's now to go pass other threads. >.>
 

DelxDoom

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kirby is really annoying but you can edgeguard him pretty well if he doesn't go high.
utilt his up b, dair works pretty well too.

so spam those ftilts dash attacks and homing missiles, i'd rather not use zair if kirby is grounded. cuz then kirby just runs up and you're screwed.

meh, you will get killed if you're spiked while recovering and if you are fsmashed, so, watch for fsmash and don't really try to go for any of your own fsmashes.

kirby's bair is ridic good. this is when you use zair though.

watch out for when Kirby's try to bait your airdodges and hit you with hammer. go ahead and bomb a lot whenever you are launched a good amount vertical to play it safe.

Don't screw attack rocks haha
 

Jim Morrison

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i'm pretty sure if you just watch out for bair/fsmash/dsmash and edgeguards you won't die too easily till the uthrow at 200+ while on the other hand Sonic might die at 150 from dtilt
You honestly can't say 'watch out for B-air.'
D-smash, alright, F-smash, meh, it hits really easily and fast and longranged and high priorty O_o. But B-air. It's an aerial move, comes out reasonably quick, range is great. It's just like your B-air except a tad slower.

What if we watch out for your F-smash, D-smash, B-air and D-tilt?
I could say that too and I'd live untill 200% too.

You can't rely on saying 'don't get hit by move X'
 

DelxDoom

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yeah I'm just saying watch out for bair, don't be behind kirby in bair range too much because of it

=.=

yes I can honestly say "watch out for bair"
(disregard)

Kirby's bair is good. so

If Kirby's back is towards me and he's in the air, he'll probably fast fall a bair because it's low lag

If he's on the ground, he might rar a bair because it's fast and has low lag


The thing about Samus is that zair has long enough range that the Samus player should be looking for such moves as bair and then just stay out of range and zair it.



vvv oh whoops lol
 

Lord Viper

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The thing about Samus is that zair has long enough range that the Samus player should be looking for such moves as bair and then just stay out of range and zair it.
As long as Kirby's in the air and tries to B-Air you then it's good to use your Z-Air, but I wouldn't try the Z-Air to Grab though, since he doesn't drop on the ground too fast.

You should worry about his throw combo's as well, consider it can bring your percent from 0 to 30+ if performed right. Most Kirby mains mostly use F-Grabs (often use for combo's), B-Air (good spacing, as well as little ending lag), F-Smash (great killer move though punishable), D-Tilt (fast, and can make you trip for punishment), and U-Tilt (another fast move and can able to make air combo's with it). Also, try not to let Kirby take your power, it will be an even bigger hassle to take down if he ever go Samus's Charge Blaster.
 

DelxDoom

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You honestly can't say 'watch out for B-air.'
D-smash, alright, F-smash, meh, it hits really easily and fast and longranged and high priorty O_o. But B-air. It's an aerial move, comes out reasonably quick, range is great. It's just like your B-air except a tad slower.

What if we watch out for your F-smash, D-smash, B-air and D-tilt?
I could say that too and I'd live untill 200% too.

You can't rely on saying 'don't get hit by move X'
Okay, response to this while actually being aware that I was talking about bair:
Sonic's bair is good. Sometimes he does the short hop fast fall bair, sometimes he just tries to read your airdodge with bair, sometimes he strings into bair with spindash.

So be aware, because it's like his best move.

also you can zair through it

also kirby's bair is like better imo lol. possibly weaker/a tiny bit less range but faster.

I can try to say, "try not to get hit by bair because it's good and stuff"
because it's so good, try to predict it please =[
 

Kinzer

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Hive, don't think just because Sonic is in a ball you're free to shoot shots at him and think they will hit a majority of the time. Are you familiar with stuff like VSDJ (Vertical SpinDash Jump)/Spinshot/SDJ (Spindash Jump)?

You will have to put Sonic in a situation where he has no choice but to to get hit by a projectile (as in throwing out Missiles/Sonic recovering/shooting Sonic during his recovery/retreating Zair into whatever), for your sake you want that to be a Charged Shot (obviously) since it's probably the most rewarding out of all the stuff that you can shoot out of your Arm Cannon. Sonic has way too much freedom/cancels to really fall into anything in a neutral position.

Just wanted to correct that.
 

Rhyme

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@ whoever mentioned Kirby stealing Samus' power...I find that homing missile seems to knock that power right out of him a majority of the time. No data or other reason why.

General...agree with Utilting Kirby out of his upB.

Learn the Kirby player's shielding/rolling and exploit with grab. I usually do Uthrow because that's where I like Kirby to be.


Also, I feel like writing up something longer on Olimar (even though we're more or less done discussing the character).

Always try to keep a projectile between you and him. Yes, I know that pikmin toss beats out missiles and charge shot. That only works if Olimar throws pikmin. If he tries to grab you then that projectile he did not destroy will break the grab because Oli has no grab armor.

If Olimar is getting too close to you (approaching max grab range) then you're usually safe to lay a bomb (watch him to make sure he has at least a tiny bit of lag). Bombs let you use missiles/Zair to create more pressure and space which is good for your defensive game.

Zair (obviously) stops pikmin in flight. If there is a missile in flight then feel free to SHNair any latched pikmin as it will be very hard for Olimar to punish you for it. The Zair/missile combination will stop a majority of pikmin spam. I like Dtilt/Ftilt at max spacing in this matchup because they are difficult to punish OoS when used intelligently.

Don't forget to grab, especially at lower percents. Olimars start to think that their shield shuts Samus down in this matchup, so you need to remind them on occasion that it doesn't.

In this matchup, I will normally get so close to shield-break that the Olimar's shield stops working for almost all attacks (Fsmash and tapA will usually always be useless to me). This matchup will require a LOT of patience.

An important part of this match is to realize when Olimar is defending and when he is retreating. You can usually tell the difference because there will be a hole in his flow. Use projectiles/Zair to pressure him as he reaches his 're-established spacing point' to keep him off balance. If you're successful here then this is where you'll land a big part of your damage. My usual combo starters here would be Dsmash and Uair, but it is different for everybody.

There is almost always a safe way up from the ledge. Just look at where Olimar is standing to figure out what your best option is. When he's close to the edge, I like both Uair through the stage and edge hop retreating Fair. Uair can poke through a surprising number of stages (Lylat and Rainbow included). With Fair, you're aiming for three hits on his shield before DIing away and back to the ledge. It'll eventually weaken his shield and has no OoS option when spaced correctly. Edge hop missile works when Olimar is shielding grab range from the edge as it prevents him from grabbing (you must land on stage with a missile cancel or this won't work very well).

Off-stage game is pretty straight-forward. Edge canceling Zair or homing missile forces Oli to either air-dodge or armor cancel. If he doesn't then just follow-up attack with rising Zair or missile/Nair respectively. If he armor cancels or airdodges then weak Nair all dai. It gently nudges him away from the stage. Also, if you're feeling adventureous, run off the edge, then downB and DI back on stage. If you time it correctly then Oli gets hit out of the 'recoiling to the edge' animation and it's an easy edge hog. If he waits out the bomb, either a weak Nair below the edge or the auto-sweetspotted upB back to the edge will hit him and you'll usually get the edge hog.

For stages, I go anything with platforms. Lylat, Battlefield, etc. It's relatively easier to get Oli stuck on a platform, and Samus can capitalize with her air game here. Stages to avoid would be anything uneaven. Samus only has horizontal pressure in this matchup. Eventually she will need to control the middle of the stage, but this is impossible when uneven terrain prevents her projectiles from working properly.

Final thoughts: projectiles lessen the effectiveness of Oli's camping and eventually weaken his shield. Samus does not fight this matchup. Rather, she gradually convinces Olimar into a location on the stage where he is far less effective, then deals damage as he tries to escape. A smart Oli will not go airborn because Samus has easy damage-dealing there.

I would put this matchup at Sam 40:60 Oli. Olimar has the advantage, but this is not one of Samus' worst matchups. If you play smart and patient then you will find exploitable openings.
 

Allied

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In regards to the kirby matchup i am going to say it would be honestly about 60:40 in Kirby's favor, its a pretty hard matchup for a non experienced kirby none the less.

Samus can do what a good kirby fears which is camp correctly and kirby already has ABYSMAL approach take advantage of that if you were you samus ^_^

Most throw combos don't work your looking to get around 30% dmg combos MAX if the samus has poor DI

Z-air = your friend in this matchup because of how well it pushes a spaced kirby away and kirby's utilt lock shouldn't work on samus at all so theres no fear in that.

however i am going to say that watch out for bair, its the #1 move that will be used here and maybe even dair.

Other than that for kirby its going to be all about Grab Game and Bair and how well they can read you so stay on your feet samus's

 

Cherry64

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I agree with Allied the kirby MU is around 6:4
I've played good kirbies online enough to know it isn't hard for samus but you little guys don't make it easy either.

I'd love to insert a wall of text here but my computer died so hardcore like an hour ago. I'm on my sisters s*** a** lap top.

advice for samus players. Control the ground. yes he uses the air to attack, but if you can control the ground game just abuse your z airs and keep him grounded and keep control over the ground.

Also U tilt is too sexy in this MU, my best used killing move on kirby

Personal note, I caught a cold :(
 

Lord Viper

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Is it really 60/40 Kirby? I have to face more Samus mains then, also D-Tilt is a great killing move if Kirby doesn't block it for punishment.
 

Allied

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Is it really 60/40 Kirby? I have to face more Samus mains then, also D-Tilt is a great killing move if Kirby doesn't block it for punishment.
This is just experience from samus's i faced at Apex and other tournaments its not an easy fight at all but i am definitally willing to say 60:40 in kirby's favor but this CAN be an uphill battle for kirby none the less

i am even willing to go as far as say 55:45 Kirby
but i still think its just 60:40
 

Cherry64

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Lol that's one of the reasons why I said control the ground to samus mainz. It could be called even if the kirby doesn't know the match up.

for samus to do well in this match-up spam lots and trow out lots of low angled side tilts. learn the trajectory and fire off charge shots as a follow up. then back to spamming game. once kirby gets close and you find yourself fighting a close range battle use side tilts, low angle or jsut regular both will hit and keep him from grabbing you as much. his grabs are scary business even though he can only do about 30 damage or so out of one grab.

Personally I'd only use her air attacks to defend, like if he approaches from the air, I'd use 1 full jump and up air and get back to the ground as quickly *** possible.
truth be told I only use Z air here to keep him away from me while on the ground, but that's just the way I play this MU

any flaws in this yet kirby mainz??
Also if any kirby mainz would like to do wi-fi, I would love to


EDIT: Oh my lord. I just played an okay kirby, not tourniment elvel or anything, anyways, his forward smash killed my samus at 77% on the edge of Final D. it was fully refreshed as he had jsut died, but that's silly.

I would have to say Kirby's ability to kill her at low percents gives him the advantage.
 

NO-IDea

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EDIT: Oh my lord. I just played an okay kirby, not tourniment elvel or anything, anyways, his forward smash killed my samus at 77% on the edge of Final D. it was fully refreshed as he had jsut died, but that's silly.

I would have to say Kirby's ability to kill her at low percents gives him the advantage.
I lol'ed a little at that.

Kirby seems awfully limited in his approach towards Samus though. Indeed, watch out for the b-air and grabs (and sometimes d-air to punish your excessive spot dodging,) but otherwise Samus has a clear advantage if she fights conservatively. Play hit and run and the Kirby will go "WTF, Let me eat you!" and start making mistakes. Then you capitalize (while still playing conservatively, don't go for the silly z-air to throw combo on Kirby or you'll miss and get grabbed yourself.)

This advantage is even clearer off stage. Personally, I think Kirby does awesome off-stage in doubles, but in singles he (or is it an it?) has too short range (at least against Samus) and Samus already excels in this area. It's one of those fights where I don't mind Samus being floaty actually. Samus mains should focus on their ground game and spacing and they should be fine.

I'd probably put the match-up at 50-50. Why? Because Kirby WILL get in eventually because the Samus main will do something stupid (sh-homing too close or z-air too close just to get grabbed) and that burst damage (freaking 30% off a grab combo? Really?) will do more damage in 5 sec than Samus will in 10. Or at higher percentages, we'll get f-smashed off the edge of FD (XD.) Get silly.
 

DelxDoom

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Don't get grabbed before 10% and you'll just DI away, double jump, and airdodge after the fthrow.

It's obvious that Kirby is looking for fsmash at 70+, so, watch for it especially then. If you take an fsmash before that then well, hope you don't get spiked while recovering.


Don't forget your DI if you suspect an fsmash but get hit anyway.


DI + Uair + bomb + DI helps you survive a LOT

don't jump too much, kirby has more easy air moves than Samus. Retreating sh fair is somewhat okay (but you might get fsmashed, doubt it though)

Stay away from zairing/missiling too close and... dash attack is pretty good.

Um, Kirby's best approaches are bairs/fairs/ftilts/walking, so uh. Full range dtilt works okay, shielding is pretty good, try not to get grabbed ;o

i dunno where i'm going
 

Cherry64

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Like I've said before. Control the ground. if his best approaches are aerials, don't take the fight to the air, his best approach and attacs in general are air. smaus can do a ton if she can gain control of the ground.

what I mean by this is stick to the ground. SH z air from far away but try to stay on the ground for the most part. Bombs here suck worse than they usually do, generally give Kirby a free hit.

Basically stay half physical and half spammy. If you decide not to stay physical spam your homing missiles a missile cancelled Smash missile won't hit him even if he isn't ducking.

Best places to be agaisnt a kirby is on the opposite side of the stage, below him when he's in the air ( use U air, it's logner than his D air I think).

and watch out for his smash's, the most hax thing in this game. Stages I'd suggest here are battle field, the platforms will help you otu more than they will him. Pokemon stadium 1 and 2 ( if legal) if you know how to fight on them

Bad stagess: Halberd, no idea why but kirby ***** hard on this one. yoshi's island is another bad one for us in this match-up.

This isn't exactly a write up, I'm jus stoked on my computer being fixed :D
but I minazwel make a write up
 

Hive

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I disagree that samus has any sort of advantage on pokemoner trainer especially as the character develops more.
in brief 30-70 disadvantage to squirtle, 55-45 advantage on charizard, and a 35-65 advantage on ivysaur.
Ivysaur will almost never be allowed to stay in against samus though because 1) zair outprioritizes his bair, razor leaf, and just about anything actually. Not to mention dtilt kos his *** at about 110%. So its pretty lopsided there. Charizard though is way underrated in this matchup. No he doesn't have an advantage on samus I don't think but it is possible for him to get past spams better than most people expect, use his flamethrower to wreak havoc against samus' edge game (zair through the ledge) and his super armor on his upb recovery makes it uncommon to land a spike. His grab game, utilt, and rocksmash (when it hits) are all also pretty powerful and useable. I'm pretty sure his grab release has some useable options in this case. You'd think him being a big target would make his *** completely spammable but this isn't completely true. Well in some respects, yes, but he can rack damage well close range and he is very heavy. Beware of being in rocksmash range just because it has good range, does like 60% damage if it hits fully, has a lingering hitbox, and has phantom hitboxes sometimes even if he shields.
Squirtle is the main thing you have to worry about though. Small, fast, and able to completely terrorize samus with grab release, utilt juggling, and locks. His aerials are amazing and his DI is the best in the game. There is actually even debate right now on whether he can go even with mk. Hydroplaning is a threat as well... imagine super wavedash that kos well and has good range (usmash), but also can lead into a grab or fsmash. He is extremely difficult to spam and his shell shifting abilities make it even harder because of his quick ground abilities and (even shorter) hitbox. Squirtle at high levels of play ***** in this match, no doubt about it. His aerials being one of his best aspects, and can be doubled in fulljump. If you don't believe me go look at vids of typhs squirtle.

The key to this matchup though ends up being that most p.t.'s are not at the level yet to decimate samus, or to understand her. But in the end I think the matchup is 60-40 Pokemon trainer at high level.s
 

Steeler

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i completely agree with hive. there are like...less than 10 GOOD pokemon trainers out there right now. and her ratios are pretty much spot on imo.

where are they discussing whether squirtle can go even with mk...? lol. just curious...;)
 

.Marik

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Samus players need to pressure and make use of projectiles for matchups to be viable for them.

Kirby has a really good air game, no use going there. Besides FSmash, Kirby can't really approach that well on the ground. Projectiles will help you out here. Kirby has pretty good priority for most of his moves, so like most matchups, play defensive against Kirby. I would say... 55:45- 60:40 Kirby's favour? I'm relatively new to Samus, so correct me if I'm wrong on anything here.

Pokemon Trainer... Samus definetly doesn't get ***** by Charizard. Zair and missiles screw him up, Dair *****, the whole nine yards. Watch out for his Rock Smash, obviously. Don't know much about Charizard, but we can limit his approach and punish pretty easily if Samus knows what she's doing. Ivysaur... Bullet Seed ***** everyone below Mid Tier. Got some good grabs, I don't think Ivysaur can approach that well, either. He seems to excell in close range combat, so we again need to play it safe and defensive. Squirtle... may be hard for Samus. He can approach pretty well, he's quick, nimble, got decent grabs...

Meh, I don't know for sure what the matchup ratio should be for Pokemon Trainer. Too many different factors.

Whew.

*Edit* Good summary, Hive.
 

Cherry64

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I disagree that samus has any sort of advantage on pokemoner trainer especially as the character develops more.
in brief 30-70 disadvantage to squirtle, 55-45 advantage on charizard, and a 35-65 advantage on ivysaur.
Ivysaur will almost never be allowed to stay in against samus though because 1) zair outprioritizes his bair, razor leaf, and just about anything actually. Not to mention dtilt kos his *** at about 110%. So its pretty lopsided there. Charizard though is way underrated in this matchup. No he doesn't have an advantage on samus I don't think but it is possible for him to get past spams better than most people expect, use his flamethrower to wreak havoc against samus' edge game (zair through the ledge) and his super armor on his upb recovery makes it uncommon to land a spike. His grab game, utilt, and rocksmash (when it hits) are all also pretty powerful and useable. I'm pretty sure his grab release has some useable options in this case. You'd think him being a big target would make his *** completely spammable but this isn't completely true. Well in some respects, yes, but he can rack damage well close range and he is very heavy. Beware of being in rocksmash range just because it has good range, does like 60% damage if it hits fully, has a lingering hitbox, and has phantom hitboxes sometimes even if he shields.
Squirtle is the main thing you have to worry about though. Small, fast, and able to completely terrorize samus with grab release, utilt juggling, and locks. His aerials are amazing and his DI is the best in the game. There is actually even debate right now on whether he can go even with mk. Hydroplaning is a threat as well... imagine super wavedash that kos well and has good range (usmash), but also can lead into a grab or fsmash. He is extremely difficult to spam and his shell shifting abilities make it even harder because of his quick ground abilities and (even shorter) hitbox. Squirtle at high levels of play ***** in this match, no doubt about it. His aerials being one of his best aspects, and can be doubled in fulljump. If you don't believe me go look at vids of typhs squirtle.

The key to this matchup though ends up being that most p.t.'s are not at the level yet to decimate samus, or to understand her. But in the end I think the matchup is 60-40 Pokemon trainer at high level.s
I'll agree with this. not because steeler did, but because I play someone who's about the smae level as me on wi-fi a lot ( so we're used to button lag) and that sounds pretty dead on. however he phails at getting past my spam as charizard, the only thing I cannot wreck of his is the little pesky Squirtle.
 

.Marik

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Just read the first post, great guide everyone.

I learned quite a bit reviewing it.
 

Xyro77

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Guys please dont make me go through and try to fit ALL the posts about kirby/pkmn t/olimar/ect into the format NONE of you post in. Please help me out.
 

Hive

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@ steeler- yea there is actually a lot of debate from what i've heard about squirtle v. mk with some of the higher members ^^
Typh I think did about even against m2k yesterday with squirtle too, squirtle just has some pretty amazing stuff. :)
 

Cherry64

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LOL sorry! I'll do it right now.

life got in the way.

Samus Versus Kirby!

40 - 60


How Samus Does well:

Use Yo Tilts! Mainly your side tilts. jabbing is alright in the match-up but tilts here out range kirby's everything Cept Fsmash. try keeping a homing missile in front of you if/when you are approaching as it'll allow for easier time gaining control. Try and keep him grounded by using z air, if he gets into the air and starts approaching run back and fire a homing missile then get ready for him to be on your ***.

When firing off homing missiles try he might try to hop over them, you will get a free Z air, I suggest Full hop it and while falling whip out another Z air, after doing this once or twice he will get kinda pissed lol.

Camping here isn't very effective as he's tiny and almost impossible to hit thus your going to need to rely a lot more on hand to hand combat. Stay to the ground lots more here, there's no reason for you to go air born as your not missile canceling too much ( Do it a bit, use it to fire off homing missiles for your approach and while retreating)

Bombs don't really serve a purpose here. And spiking is harder to do because he's able to evade or just hit you with a quick U air before your spike comes out. Try it if you think you got it. Try firing off 2 homing missiles when he's off stage because he's likely coming back.

Your main kill moves Here should be Dtilt, Utilt, Fsmash, Charge shot, and B air, Yes I said it. B air. He will try to B air you as an approach so get ready to retreating B air. ours is Longer :D
Pretty sure both chars get hit and damaged but ours sends him flying where as his is a combo tool, easily worth the exchange.

What to watch out for in this match-up:

Little bugger short hopping aerials. he can Easily gain control of the air so fight it with H missiles and OoS UpB. It can be said fighting a good kirby in the air is similar to fighting meta in the air, lots of retreating till he lands a hit then he'll keep going from there.

honestly just watch out for his Air combo's and His F smash, It will kill you at about 90%, Yes it's stupid I know.

Stages I prefer here are big ones because they allow for endless possibilities, I'd go FD, there is nothing to get into your way. I also find that platforms generally screw us in this match-up. But that could just be me and my love for keeping an H missile in between me and kirby at all times.

his air game and ability to toss around samus like a rag doll is worthy of the 60-40 match up. it will be likely to change however I find it even or almost even if you know how to play against them. I know i said play physical and you should, but try keeping it decently defensive till you see an opening for tossing kirby around then retreat. Anyone want to add to this??
 

LanceStern

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San Diego, CA. (619)
LOL defensive till you see an opening for tossing kirby around then retreat. Anyone want to add to this??

One thing I'd like to add is watch out for his side B as well. When grounded it kills Samus at low percentages. When he's in the air, it has TWO swings, and if you get hit by the second swing it has knockback similar to Metaknights' shuttle loop.

You covered almost all of it very well. I played against my friend who has a decent kirby, and I've played him like 20 times. It's definitely in Kirby's favor because of aerials and he's so short some of our moves don't hit him.

EDIT: Sorry again Dryn for the double post. It's a habit I'm working on stopping
 

Fino

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
3,262
Location
nxt to Dphat wit all dem azn biches
Anybody wanna write up the olimar article? im writing the sonic one now.
Xyro, if you like, I will have the olimar write-up done for you by tonight. What type of format would you like it in?
Just give me the titles/captions like "ratio" "pros / cons" ect.

Note: I might go through the past couple pages and search "olimar" just to see what comes up, but I'm plenty good with writing right now.

Additionally I'm up for playing anyone ^^; (I'm looking at you xyro D: )


~Fino
 

DelxDoom

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
1,555
Are you kidding me? that's uncalled for.
really difficult matchup because Dedede can grab Samus out of all her approaches, throw side b's at all of her spam, and he gets ridiculous advantage from one grab, his bair also is really effective versus all her aerial moves, his grab is effective versus all her ground moves

just about everything samus does is risky, then you will get grabbed for 20-35% or more.


it's way hard to kill dedede too.


Um, you could do zairs/fairs and be really defensive but this matchup is really annoying
 
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