Ignore.

[Crystanium]

Honestly, it doesn't matter how broken your DI is (although the term "broken DI" in itself is misconstrued) if you can't get back to the stage.

I think you don't understand. When Link DIs, he goes upward, which means getting back to the stage, let alone recovery is not an issue. I argued this same thing before in the past, and I was wrong. I've brawled with a few excellent Link mains. Legan, naveed5, Ray_Kalm (he mains Ganondorf and is an excellent player, but he has used Link), and Brav. These four guys were awesome. Brav used DI so well, he was lasting slightly above 200%. Heck, even Rohins, who doesn't use Link, didn't have a hard time beating me with Link.

Samus's ledge game is too good for Link. Once you're off the stage, we'll keep you off.

It doesn't work like that. DI causes Link to go upward, which means he can get back to the stage easily. You'd have to hit him to the side or below, but the DI pushes Link up, and while you're spending your kill moves to take down Link, Link is surviving each of them. DI never stales.

I mean, we don't even have to spike you; we can z-air, we can edgehog and punish your laggy landing. Killing isn't the problem in this match-up for us.

Spiking doesn't work on an opponent who is so high up. Z-airing is pointless, unless you have Link to the side or below the stage. And yes, killing is the problem for us. Samus has a difficult time KOing. Link can KO Samus with ease. A simple f-tilt from Link can KO Samus. He can survive longer with DI.

There's a reason Link is in lower echelon of the tier list: his recovery.

If recovery is all it took to take someone down on the tier list, then Olimar would be at the bottom.

Your spacing game may be good, but we can match it, if not beat it.

Have you played a really good Link main? I mean, one who knows what the heck he's doing. One who knows how to DI properly. Because from what it seems, you haven't. I find Link's spacing more effective.

The reason being that our z-air ***** more than yours,

Link's z-air isn't that bad. And it causes more damage.

our missiles come out faster and go out longer (meaning we can fight at farther distances so as not to get punished by your z-air.)

Which is pointless when Link bombards you with a myriad of attacks, forcing you to get off the stage.

With that being said, the only thing you've got over us is priority close-range. And even with that, other than your jab cancels, all your moves have punishable lag. Both characters rack up damage quickly but Samus will have an easier time with killing.

No she will not. Her killing is horrible. This isn't Samus from Melee. Why is Samus so low? Because, she can't kill. The only thing helping her is her z-air. Without that, she'd be worse.

I wouldn't put this match-up at 50-50 at all. I'd put it in Samus's favor. However much is up to discussion. I'd put it at 60-40.

You probably played average Link players. It's 50-50.

 

[Cherry64]

I agree with Dryn. I have insane trouble to think that samus has an advantage unless you spam z air, but they need to rang you bounce it off the ground and your F'd if you are trying to z air.

I'd write more of me getting screwed over by my buddy Kief (he's just a better player than me but if we were even players, it'd be an even match.)
check the samus vids for me vs a link, I'd rather not link them if I can help it, but I will if I have to.

 

[NO-IDea]

I think you don't understand. When Link DIs, he goes upward, which means getting back to the stage, let alone recovery is not an issue. I argued this same thing before in the past, and I was wrong. I've brawled with a few excellent Link mains. Legan, naveed5, Ray_Kalm (he mains Ganondorf and is an excellent player, but he has used Link), and Brav. These four guys were awesome. Brav used DI so well, he was lasting slightly above 200%. Heck, even Rohins, who doesn't use Link, didn't have a hard time beating me with Link.

Again, the term "broken DI" is misconstrued. For most characters, they would ideally try to propel themselves to the corner. However, because Link is so heavy to survive almost every vertical knockback killing move, he can just focus on DI'ing up. Albeit that is a nifty advantage, that hardly means his survivability has increased dramatically, especially to the 200%s. That's insane and should not be happening ever. You don't see D3s and Snakes survive to 200 that often.

It doesn't work like that. DI causes Link to go upward, which means he can get back to the stage easily. You'd have to hit him to the side or below, but the DI pushes Link up, and while you're spending your kill moves to take down Link, Link is surviving each of them. DI never stales.

D-tilt and u-smash shouldn't be used for killing anyway, rather to rack up damage if you do ever find an opportunity to land them. Meanwhile, low f-tilts, low f-smashes and z-air does all the knockback required to kill him. Why? Because all you're trying to do is knock him off the stage while keeping him horizontal. You would never try to play/kill to his advantage. Once he's off the stage, your ledge-game can rack up the damage and potentially kill him easily.

Spiking doesn't work on an opponent who is so high up. Z-airing is pointless, unless you have Link to the side or below the stage. And yes, killing is the problem for us. Samus has a difficult time KOing. Link can KO Samus with ease. A simple f-tilt from Link can KO Samus. He can survive longer with DI.

He won't be so high up if you use some moves over others. And there are four zones to kill. Three of them may never occur and you'll still win. Killing is not the issue IMO. Simply racking up damage makes moves with horizontal knockback deadly. Fully extended z-air will scare Link mains when they're at 130-140% because it will knock them off the stage without any huge vertical knockback.

If recovery is all it took to take someone down on the tier list, then Olimar would be at the bottom.

Well actually, it's not all it takes, but you cannot deny it's an integral part in determining if the character is good. And Olimar's recovery isn't terribad. down+B avoids most aggressive gimpers, he has better camping skills than Link to prevent himself in getting in the situation anyway, and most Olimars will have a purple pikmin to dispose of for when they recover.

On the other hand, in this match-up, Samus can outcamp Link and Link is easier to gimp than an Olimar.

Have you played a really good Link main? I mean, one who knows what the heck he's doing. One who knows how to DI properly. Because from what it seems, you haven't. I find Link's spacing more effective.

I find Link's spacing effective close range. In fact, I think Link beats Samus close range altogether. However, I also find that Samus can escape most of Link's jab cancels because of her floatiness and ***** Link from a distance.

Your entire opinion on the match-up is based on the sole ideology that Link will be sent far up to avoid being killed off stage. That, my friend, is wrong to assume and you should be changing your play style to adapt to it.

Link's z-air isn't that bad. And it causes more damage.

I never said it was bad or that bad. =.=
I said ours was better. And that our z-air beats most of Link's spam too.

Which is pointless when Link bombards you with a myriad of attacks, forcing you to get off the stage.

We can outcamp Links. =.=

No she will not. Her killing is horrible. This isn't Samus from Melee. Why is Samus so low? Because, she can't kill. The only thing helping her is her z-air. Without that, she'd be worse.

Samus is so low because she has low killing power. And yet again, I'll remind you there are four kill zones, and you may never kill Link left/right/up and still win. What she makes up for in killing power is amazing recovery, good ledge game and gimp moveset and her great projectile game. Funny how all of these things are what's necessary to beat Link.

The way to win is to knock him off and then gimp. This strategy is also percentage independent. You're going to play your game differently against characters with crappy recovery when using Samus.

Links will have to play their game differently too. No longer can they expect opponents to approach by going through his projectile game. As Samus mains, we shouldn't get close. In other words, to get to the zones where Link excels in this match-up, he has to approach and go through our spam game. We all know how hard that can be.

You probably played average Link players. It's 50-50.

I still stand by 60-40. Maybe, possibly 55-45. If you play the match-up gay and spam z-airs with occasional missiles, you'll win.

About time someone livened up this thread too. This is the kind of discussion we need.

<3 Dryn

 

[Crystanium]

Again, the term "broken DI" is misconstrued. For most characters, they would ideally try to propel themselves to the corner. However, because Link is so heavy to survive almost every vertical knockback killing move, he can just focus on DI'ing up. Albeit that is a nifty advantage, that hardly means his survivability has increased dramatically, especially to the 200%s. That's insane and should not be happening ever. You don't see D3s and Snakes survive to 200 that often.

We've seen Ally's Snake. He has survived past 200%. As for King Dedede, he's got the best vertical survivability. Anyone who isn't surviving high enough are either not DIing and momentum canceling properly, or they're not doing it at the right time.

D-tilt and u-smash shouldn't be used for killing anyway, rather to rack up damage if you do ever find an opportunity to land them. Meanwhile, low f-tilts, low f-smashes and z-air does all the knockback required to kill him. Why? Because all you're trying to do is knock him off the stage while keeping him horizontal. You would never try to play/kill to his advantage. Once he's off the stage, your ledge-game can rack up the damage and potentially kill him easily.

I never mentioned d-tilt or u-smash. Also, knock-back is decreased if you lower the Canon Thrust.

He won't be so high up if you use some moves over others. And there are four zones to kill. Three of them may never occur and you'll still win. Killing is not the issue IMO. Simply racking up damage makes moves with horizontal knockback deadly. Fully extended z-air will scare Link mains when they're at 130-140% because it will knock them off the stage without any huge vertical knockback.

Try this out. Fire a fully charged Charge Shot at Link, and have Link DI up and toward the stage. Not only should you DI, but also momentum cancel. The fastest aerial for Link is his b-air. This reduces the possibility of KOing Link. Brav, a Link main, did this to me, and I thought, "He shouldn't be living this high." After the match, I told him, "Dude, you got to teach me how to momentum cancel!" If you use a Charge Shot or f-smash, Link will beat this with his DI and momentum canceling. If you use d-tilt for attacking, rather than KOing, as you have said to use d-tilt to deal damage, Link won't be getting KOed vertically.

Well actually, it's not all it takes, but you cannot deny it's an integral part in determining if the character is good. And Olimar's recovery isn't terribad. down+B avoids most aggressive gimpers, he has better camping skills than Link to prevent himself in getting in the situation anyway, and most Olimars will have a purple pikmin to dispose of for when they recover.

So then, it's not all about recovery.

On the other hand, in this match-up, Samus can outcamp Link and Link is easier to gimp than an Olimar.

Only if Link is in the middle or below the stage. Again, DI + momentum cancel = going higher up, not in the middle or below the stage. Link's survivability isn't that bad. You'd know this if you brawled with excellent Link mains.

I find Link's spacing effective close range. In fact, I think Link beats Samus close range altogether. However, I also find that Samus can escape most of Link's jab cancels because of her floatiness and ***** Link from a distance.

Link has this one thing that Samus does not have. It's called the Bomb. Bombs can be thrown in any direction. Samus can only attack horizontally with her special attacks, except for the Screw Attack. Bombs cannot be stopped by Missiles, nor z-air. They can be stopped by Super Missiles or the Charge Shot. Short hop arrow canceling with the Gale Boomerang and Bombs give Samus a very difficult time. The Gale Boomerang can stop Homing Missiles, as can arrows. He applies more pressure on Samus, more than Samus can apply pressure on him.. And while the jab cancels can be escaped, they come out unexpectedly.

Your entire opinion on the match-up is based on the sole ideology that Link will be sent far up to avoid being killed off stage. That, my friend, is wrong to assume and you should be changing your play style to adapt to it.

You can't change your play style if you hit your opponent, and they DI and momentum cancel. I knew that was what Brav was doing, but I couldn't do anything about it. My attacks only got weaker, and the worst thing about this is that z-air doesn't even refresh any of your attacks.

We can outcamp Links. =.=

I don't know about that. The Gale Boomerang stops Homing Missiles. Bombs stop Homing Missiles, Super Missiles, and Charge Shot. Arrow canceling is annoying as heck, especially when you need to charge your Charge Shot. You can try to outcamp Link, but he's better at doing it than Samus. She's not holding an extra weapon while using z-air and Homing Missile cancel. Also, Link isn't floaty like Samus, so he can arrow cancel faster by doing short hops.

Samus is so low because she has low killing power. And yet again, I'll remind you there are four kill zones, and you may never kill Link left/right/up and still win. What she makes up for in killing power is amazing recovery, good ledge game and gimp moveset and her great projectile game. Funny how all of these things are what's necessary to beat Link.

And yet, she's low-tier.

The way to win is to knock him off and then gimp. This strategy is also percentage independent. You're going to play your game differently against characters with crappy recovery when using Samus.

That's easier said than done. You're ignoring DI + momentum canceling. You can't gimp a character who gets knocked into the air and is higher than you to start gimping with d-air.

Links will have to play their game differently too. No longer can they expect opponents to approach by going through his projectile game. As Samus mains, we shouldn't get close. In other words, to get to the zones where Link excels in this match-up, he has to approach and go through our spam game. We all know how hard that can be.

It's not very hard, especially with an extra weapon in his hand that can be thrown up, down, left, or right. Samus doesn't have a weapon to do that. His Gale Boomerang can be angled as well, and even if it misses you, it's coming back. The Gale Boomerang is the most annoying of all of Link's attacks.

I still stand by 60-40. Maybe, possibly 55-45. If you play the match-up gay and spam z-airs with occasional missiles, you'll win.

Or run out of time. 55-45 is more reasonable. 60-40 is ridiculous. This isn't Samus versus Bowser.

 

[NO-IDea]

We've seen Ally's Snake. He has survived past 200%. As for King Dedede, he's got the best vertical survivability. Anyone who isn't surviving high enough are either not DIing and momentum canceling properly, or they're not doing it at the right time.

I've also seen Ally's Snake get gimped by M2K several times. He puts him into a gimpable situation, then aggressively follows with up+b 2-3 times (silly cypher) until Ally died. Transfered into this scenario, it's so much easier to put Link into a gimpable situation than it is to put Snake.

As for D3, Samus is more than capable of pressuring a D3 to recover onto the stage instead of grabbing the ledge, leading to a free hit. If we can pressure D3, what makes you think we can't pressure Link?

Again, I find Samus having a much easier time killing Link than Snake or D3. MUCH easier.

I never mentioned d-tilt or u-smash. Also, knock-back is decreased if you lower the Canon Thrust.

Vertical knockback is decreased. That's exactly what you want. You want him knocked back at an angle less than 45 degrees.

Try this out. Fire a fully charged Charge Shot at Link, and have Link DI up and toward the stage. Not only should you DI, but also momentum cancel. The fastest aerial for Link is his b-air. This reduces the possibility of KOing Link. Brav, a Link main, did this to me, and I thought, "He shouldn't be living this high." After the match, I told him, "Dude, you got to teach me how to momentum cancel!" If you use a Charge Shot or f-smash, Link will beat this with his DI and momentum canceling. If you use d-tilt for attacking, rather than KOing, as you have said to use d-tilt to deal damage, Link won't be getting KOed vertically.

I won't try that out because I know the results already. I don't see why you would try to fire a charge shot anyway though. You're playing the match-up wrong if you expect the charge shot to be our kill move. z-air is a better set-up and kill move than charge shot against Link.

Again, the road to victory here is to ensure Link goes down the road to hell. Gimp, gimp, gimp!

So then, it's not all about recovery.

You mis-interpreted my argument. Olimar's recovery, while not relatively good, isn't exactly horrible either. If Olimar mains don't know how to whistle properly however, you won't see them winning. As long as they DI correctly, their moveset provides the tools to recover. Link's moveset... doesn't, no matter how well he DIs. Link is lucky DI exists, or he'd be extremely bad. I wished they didn't nerf the vertical jump of up+b.

Only if Link is in the middle or below the stage. Again, DI + momentum cancel = going higher up, not in the middle or below the stage. Link's survivability isn't that bad. You'd know this if you brawled with excellent Link mains.

I can't say I've brawled with excellent Link mains. I've brawled with good ones though, and never had a problem pressuring them into where I want them to go. Again, z-air ***** in this match-up. Spacing in this match-up isn't that bad to maintain. And again, refrain from using f-smash unless you're tilting it down or if he's on the side of the stage. F-tilt and z-air are much better options into pressuring him.

Link has this one thing that Samus does not have. It's called the Bomb. Bombs can be thrown in any direction. Samus can only attack horizontally with her special attacks, except for the Screw Attack. Bombs cannot be stopped by Missiles, nor z-air. They can be stopped by Super Missiles or the Charge Shot. Short hop arrow canceling with the Gale Boomerang and Bombs give Samus a very difficult time. The Gale Boomerang can stop Homing Missiles, as can arrows. He applies more pressure on Samus, more than Samus can apply pressure on him.. And while the jab cancels can be escaped, they come out unexpectedly.

Two words: air dodge. Bomb is a projectile that can be caught. Gale can be air dodged and hit through by z-air. Arrow canceling, while annoying, doesn't have long range unless charged (compared to the length of z-air at least.)

Every projectile can be beaten by z-air. And our z-air beats their z-air. If you play smart and gay, you win. Concerning the match-up, we should assume the Samus is playing to win, no matter what it takes.

And yes, jab cancels do come out unexpectedly some times, so have fast reflexes. Link mains need fast reflexes to DI, Samus mains should have them too.

You can't change your play style if you hit your opponent, and they DI and momentum cancel. I knew that was what Brav was doing, but I couldn't do anything about it. My attacks only got weaker, and the worst thing about this is that z-air doesn't even refresh any of your attacks.

You can change what you hit him with. Honestly, stop using f-smash to kill when f-tilt has better purposes in this match-up. If anything, you can stale the f-smash and use it to rack up damage, and simply use f-tilt when he's at higher percentages to put him into a gimpable situation.

And you don't need to use z-air to refresh your moves. You need to use z-air to **** his camp game and set the pace of the match.

I don't know about that. The Gale Boomerang stops Homing Missiles. Bombs stop Homing Missiles, Super Missiles, and Charge Shot. Arrow canceling is annoying as heck, especially when you need to charge your Charge Shot. You can try to outcamp Link, but he's better at doing it than Samus. She's not holding an extra weapon while using z-air and Homing Missile cancel. Also, Link isn't floaty like Samus, so he can arrow cancel faster by doing short hops.

If you realize that all you need to outcamp a Link is z-air and a good sense of timing and spacing, you'll win. You don't need missiles and charge shot to win. Mix it up, but you don't need them,.

And yet, she's low-tier.

She's low-tier, but in this match-up, she has all the tools she needs to win. Link is easier to gimp than almost the entire roster. That was what I was trying to get at.

That's easier said than done. You're ignoring DI + momentum canceling. You can't gimp a character who gets knocked into the air and is higher than you to start gimping with d-air.

You're ignoring what I'm trying to say. Stop playing to his advantages and start playing to yours. Keep him low and keep him horizontal. Samus has the moveset to do it. Use f-smash to rack up damage, f-tilt to set-up the kill. Tilted down f-smash when at the edge. And only use these moves when he's up close and gotten past your z-air. Otherwise, keep your spacing and z-air. If he does pressure you off the stage, which does happen often, use your ledge game. You know it's superior to his edge-guarding.

It's not very hard, especially with an extra weapon in his hand that can be thrown up, down, left, or right. Samus doesn't have a weapon to do that. His Gale Boomerang can be angled as well, and even if it misses you, it's coming back. The Gale Boomerang is the most annoying of all of Link's attacks.

The wind from Gale Boomerang can be air-dodged as well. Which also leads to z-air. Z-AIR IS TOO GOOD.

Or run out of time. 55-45 is more reasonable. 60-40 is ridiculous. This isn't Samus versus Bowser.

60-40 if not 55-45. Definitely not 50-50. We should discuss what to avoid when fighting him close range however. We all know his projectile game, and we all should know that we can beat it. But if you underestimate his close-combat game, you'll lose. If it sucked, it would definitely be 60-40 if not worse.

 

[Legan]

It's 60-40 samus at the top lvls of play. I just played Xyro in 2weeks ago in tournament.

I 2-0'ed him in brackets and he beat me 3-1 in a money match later that day because he figured out the matchup a little better. Samus Zair destroys link on the stage and even more so off the stage. Her spam game shuts down links and at times it can seem utterly hopeless trying to recover with link when samus is edge gaurding.


Xyro(samus) Vs Legan(link)

1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AZ-fDJvxNI
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1vdcXsoc_k
3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTorQI42uZM
4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZxrqEznuUo

I played a little campier in our bracket matches but you can get a good idea of how it plays out when both players know what they're doing.

 

[RaigothDagon]

Nice job to you Legan. My older brother plays Link, and by far you are the better than ones I've faced. And I'd like to make a comment about NOID. I'm coming to respect you a lot more. Very educated comments. It doesn't seem to go along with the commonly accepted opinions of other top Samus players, but I see your logic and understand there is more than one way to play Samus. Keep up the good comments, I am really enjoying the discussions we are having in the boards lately.

 

[TGM]

i agree with legan

once both players KNOW the match-up, the "lack of character exp john" wears off. This allows samus to pull ahead BIG time.

To be simple:

Samus spam is not as USEFUL but it can come out MUCH faster than links. This means it shuts down his spam game and puts us in a GREAT situation. Zair eats thru ALL of his spam but bomb. Charge shot eats through all but his bomb....but the bomb is so **** slow and easy to shield, there really isnt a reason to get hit with it.

Links melee attacks are MUCH better than ours! Longer range, higher damage, easier time with KOs and he can ko UP(d smash/dair) and to the SIDE(f-smash, fair). However, there is no fear because we have NO NEED to get up close untill its KO time(if you choose to KO him with a melee attack)

Offstage/recovery. Dryn im sorry but your just wrong. There is NOTHING link can do once samus starts to gimp(links recovery is just horrible). Sure if the link is WAY up in the sky, hes SAFER than if he would be if he was below the stage tryin to recover but in reality, you could say that exact same thing about 90% of the cast......so this is not a LINK specific thing.

Stages, KNOWING link can KO well. Stages with low roofs like HALBERT/delphino/green green is a DEATH TRAP for samus. I only won on delphino cause i play MEGA MEGA safe and i felt i knew what to expect from legan.




overall, this is 60-40 in samus favor( played the BEST link so im pretty well informed) ONCE you know the match-up it becomes REALLY easy to see.



PS: guys this is xyro, my xyro account will be back on the 26th and i will update this thread with link vs samus info and new chars.

 

[RaigothDagon]

Add him to the Chozen Warriors somebody who has control over that. We need his input there. Oh, and what happened Xyro? How?

 

[TGM]

Add him to the Chozen Warriors somebody who has control over that. We need his input there. Oh, and what happened Xyro? How?

i spammed the marth boards ill be back in a few days. Continue with the link talk, im proud of you guys. Takin on a matchup on your own, im so happy!

 

[Cherry64]

i spammed the marth boards ill be back in a few days. Continue with the link talk, im proud of you guys. Takin on a matchup on your own, im so happy!

I lol'd, kind of at everything truth be told. why didn't you use your alt account? TGM?

anywayss. xyro brings up good points I guess, me n dryn play similar though, we camp a bit then go physical, which is prolly why we think it's 50-50, if we play to win I can see samus pulling ahead a bit, I also see though, that links spam is REDICULESLY good. honestly Legan/xyro go watch my three vids with kief's link, it's all spam and it seemed even, but he is an all round better player than I am so that probably helped out a lot. Bombs also throw mixed with other projectiles are B****'s dude, on their own are simple but no link will do that.

all this in kind spirits of course, Play to win I'd give it 55-45 to samus. still nothing big nuff to mess over a good link, they are so used to worse matchups than us.


BTW falling off stage homing missile WRECKS links. normally they fast fall and recover vertically from their own little sweet spot below ledge, homing missile's are sexual for gimping them on the way down. fire 1 as a missile cancel and the other from ground as he'll air dodge it then buffer an Up B.

 

[TGM]

I lol'd, kind of at everything truth be told. why didn't you use your alt account? TGM?

anywayss. xyro brings up good points I guess, me n dryn play similar though, we camp a bit then go physical, which is prolly why we think it's 50-50, if we play to win I can see samus pulling ahead a bit, I also see though, that links spam is REDICULESLY good. honestly Legan/xyro go watch my three vids with kief's link, it's all spam and it seemed even, but he is an all round better player than I am so that probably helped out a lot. Bombs also throw mixed with other projectiles are B****'s dude, on their own are simple but no link will do that.

all this in kind spirits of course, Play to win I'd give it 55-45 to samus. still nothing big nuff to mess over a good link, they are so used to worse matchups than us.


BTW falling off stage homing missile WRECKS links. normally they fast fall and recover vertically from their own little sweet spot below ledge, homing missile's are sexual for gimping them on the way down. fire 1 as a missile cancel and the other from ground as he'll air dodge it then buffer an Up B.

I dont man, the one time i tried to build damage then go in for i kill, I WAS THE ONE WHO LOST THE STOCK. A high level link knows his **** and how to build up for a KO.

A HIGH level samus knows how much the speedy spam can really really slow the foes spam and can use that to win the battle.

There just SOOOOO much you can do to link without going in and actually going hand to hand with him.

1. LINK is slow as hell and his basic and double jump is trash. So spamming his *** and running around is easy as pie and he cant really hunt you down. You can run circles around his *** on BF and you can platform/air camp him on SV. FD is just a PLAYGROUND for slowing him down with projectiles.

2. Once its time for the KO you can rely on hand to hand(which link wins) or stay away and hope a CS hits him(which it wont). SO what do you do? Zair to grab, missle to grab. If they expect this and ground dodge, run past them and pivot grab(remember, you only need one grab) and throw them off stage and gimp.

3. What if they are ABOVE the stage when you knock them off? Simple! Link will come at you with a DAIR or air dodge or drop a bomb and use dair or airdodge in MOST situations. For dair, just pivot grab then or shield dash/stutter step to d tilt/fsmash. If he air dodges, time a Dsmash or drop a bomb then do dsmash to insure you hit him(omg a bomb use).



Watch the vids of me and legaan. I was in NO way flashy. i did what works and didnt do much melee stuff.

 

[Crystanium]

It's 60-40 samus at the top lvls of play. I just played Xyro in 2weeks ago in tournament.

Well, Legan, I'll take your word for it. And I'll watch those videos. Are those the same matches you asked me about that happened on livestream?

 

[NO-IDea]

@Raigoth: Thank you. It means a lot.

@Xyro: What are the next set of four? Also... can we do four but separate the discussion into weeks of the month? It'll give us more time to gather info and an easier time shaping/summarizing the match-up for each individual character for the front page.

And the 26th? That's nearly a month... jesus. The semester starts too and I've got 19 credits this time... meh I'm a good procrastinator.

 

[TGM]

I havnt decided(link will be one). I may just put all of them up and you people choose who you wish to talk about, and we will just go with the flow. TOO MANY of you guys dont have enough exp to write an article on the current characters.

Time limit doesnt matter because ive give you guys like 2 months on the current set of chars and no on has done anything.

If you feel you know a match-up REALLY well, go head and write up the article in the format like on the front page and ill post it up.

 

[Cherry64]

eh, not many of us know MU yeah, I don't know any of the chars right now, I can say that honestly, also at xyro's wal of text in return to my comments bout link, I agree with that, it makes sense, just play smart I guess, we jus need to get out more and practice up a bit.

 

[NO-IDea]

I've got plenty of ROB match-up experience to do the write-up. (Probably do it tomorrow afternoon.)

ESAM wrote an informative article earlier concerning the Pikachu match-up. If someone wants to quickly go over it, summarize and put whatever contributions necessary into it, that'd be nice.

Jigglypuff was discussed earlier as well, not in depth however. Zelda was hardly discussed. Oddly enough, both of these match-ups are in our favor. Could two Samus mains go over what we should avoid (and mention our strengths too ^^) and wrap it up?

EDIT: Sorry, actually SoR did a brief but efficient job at summing up the Zelda match-up. If someone wants to add some more and then shape it up for the front page, awesome.

 

[NO-IDea]

R.O.B.

Chances of winning: 50-50 (assuming you're playing to win)

How does Samus win/do well:

This will be one of the few match-ups where Samus can fully utilize her projectile game. SH Super Missiles and Homing Missiles both hit, you'll find time to charge up and your z-air still shines. Your best bet of winning will be to rack up damage steadily and camp until ROB is within killing percentages, specifically around 130-140s.

It doesn't mean our melee game against ROB isn't bad either. U-smash is a great damage racker because of ROB's size and weight. Up+B and all combos concerning it work wonders too. Aerial-wise, f-air is now more than viable (big, heavy characters hate fire it seems) in this match-up along with her other usual attacks. Buffered jab combos however should be used sparingly as ROB's f-tilt punishes easily. Overall, we lose the priority close range, but our projectiles (z-air included) both pressure ROB and lead into our combos anyway.

Do not fear his ledge-game. Against ROB, the matchup is fairly even off stage. Threaten the d-air, but don't forget your other gimping weapons (n-air especially). The opportunity to spike will rise occasionally, but z-airs and bombs work well in pressuring ROB when he recovers. Even better, b-air stage spikes work if ROB is recovering from below and is expecting the d-air. However, if you've hit him high and he survives, don't bother pressuring with missiles. ROB's b-air can push him half way across the stage... without fuel... before he lands.

Play safe and be aware of what you stale. Spamming f-smashes and d-tilts will lose you the match here. Don't underestimate ROB's weight.

What to watch out for:

That annoying laser. As long as you watch for the animation, you should have ample time to shield/dodge unless you're in the middle of something else (missile canceling for example.) Just watch for the signs and be careful not to tack on unnecessary damage (they'll use it as you recover too, watch out!) ROB's gyro can also hinder Samus's camping game and recovery somewhat. Once ROB charges it up a fair amount, air-dodge->z-air can alleviate that issue.

Concerning close range, f-tilt is ROB's best friend. Shield grabs and OoS/spot dodge-> d-smash also work well to punish failed approaches. Learn to SDI/DI and d-smash won't be as effective and you'll be able to survive ROB's up-throw for a while. You should keep to your camping game and refrain from approaching unless an opening is ensured. Samus's projectile game is too good in this match-up, and to recklessly approach and not use your advantages won't be well.

ROB's jab comes out on frame 3, f-tilt on 7, u-tilt on 4 (which can combo into itself via IASA frames.) In short, his jab and tilts ****. Also, stray from being above him too much as ROB's u-air/u-smash can come out unexpectedly and Samus's floatiness can be a curse. If ROB does get you into the air, more than likely the best option will be to go for the ledge and reset yourself.

Unfortunately, even without staling your moves, ROB can live for what seems like forever in this match-up. And on the other hand, ROB has plenty of kill moves for you. N-air, B-air, and F-smash are the big ones. All have significant start up time however, so keep your eyes open and shield/punish accordingly. I find that ROB has difficulty KOing Samus regardless of his several options (not as bad as our problem but it exists) simply because we're not willing to put ourselves within range and our weight helps us survive to high percentages.

When recovering, it may serve well to bomb jump and watch what ROB does. If he charges up with gyro, it is safe to assume you can tether back onto the stage (air dodge to tether in this scenario.) However, if you're facing an aggressive ROB, tether recoveries can be punished by a surprise d-air, ROB can gimp you if you're far and below the stage with f-air, and b-air has amazing spacing and can punish air dodges well. In other words, against an aggressive ROB, stall with bombs, save the double jump, and look for an opening to spike or up+b back onto the stage.

What stages should Samus counterpick/ban:

Most stages you're good at, ROB excels just as well. While BF serves to optimize on Samus's advantages, it's rather small, ROB can punish you on platforms well and ROB has great recovery to survive below BF.

Instead, go for FD and Smashville. Less platforms and straight horizontal terrain means less of an aerial fight and more camping/ledge fights.

Ban Frigate. ROB just does too well on that stage, giving him good recovery options, approach options and can just camp well despite it's size.

RC is also a viable ban, but that's based solely on whether you as the Samus main are comfortable taking on ROB in the air. Again, Samus doesn't do well above ROB at all and ROB can match Samus's floatiness with fuel.

 

[TGM]

NoIdea, you are my ****ING hero! i get unbanned tonight so ill update the front page asap with link and rob.

if anybod else wants to pitch in on rob or any other chars i have listed, please do. If anybody wants to go back a few pages and make the article for the charactes we have info on, PLEASE DO!!!

 

[Xyro77]

New characters are up. Lets get it on!!!

 

[Hive]

hmm new characters!
I'll write more later, but here are some short thoughts on these I guess ^^

DDD/ 10-90 DDDs Favor- pure ****ing **** basically. Like I outlined in the DDD thread we used to have. Basically- ICG, CG (damage and kills spacing), Kill Percentage+ lack of onstage ko moves for samus, far better Kill moves and setups for DDD, and aerials that outprioritize samus' (damage and blocking samus' ability to go for the spike), his really good spot dodge, the fact that samus can't risk too many approaches against high level ddds, and cps that have walkoffs/walls (castle siege/delfino) all conspire to work against her in this matchup. As a general strategy I'd say spam, space, and hit the ledge when he starts to approach, but its really only effective against non-high level ddds or ones that know the matchup. I'd say samus' worst matchup for sure. ^^

DK- I think this match is maybe... 60-40 or a little above in DKs favor? Its not what I expected going into the matchup, but Dk is surprisingly good at doing well with samus. Sure you can hit him fairly hard with spam, but really, he has ridiculously low onstage kill percentages, , range, a very decent spike, and good kill setups. Plus his edgeguarding is not lacking. He also does well on some levels that really push the advantage in his favor (such as Brinstar). When I talked to Rohins at Genesis he felt that it was a disadvantaged match for samus as well (because we all know you won't take my word for it lol ).

Zero Suit Samus- I honestly think this is one of samus' advantaged matchups. I've always felt that it was near 55-45 or 60-40 in samus' favor. i've played Raretruffle, Erow, and Fierce, and I could be wrong, but I've always felt pretty comfortable with the matchup. Samus' zair and spams outrange her forward b and other moves forcing her to approach. her crawl is good at getting around this though, and her kill setups and kill moves work better than samus, but samus has a pretty decent time comboing her and even playing offstage.

Toon Link- maybe 70-30 in toon links favor I want to say, but I haven't played toon links for quite awhile actually... what I remember being bad about this matchup though is that his spams keep up with or even surpass samus'. This forces her to approach, which, honestly Toon Link does better at. She's better offstage and from the ledge though, not that his ledge game is bad by any means,.

 

[KillerJawz]

I do feel I have a lot of experience in the DK matchup, and this information has helped me ALOT.

Matchup - 55-45 DK's Favor.

For such a large character he moves suprisingly quickly, equipped with his bair it CAN (does not mean it always does) get through samus' spam very well and force her off stage, I find OoS Up b counters this very nicely. DK also has ALOT of range in his tilts, this allows him to avoid punishment from a OoS upb. Pivot grabs do wonders in this match up , even with DK's little lag on his bair, a nice pivot grab can punish him, and even force him off stage. DK however, can KO us at stupidly low percentages, his fsmash and dsmash have mad range, and his usmash/tilt prevent approaches from above, so dair to up b or any other dair related combinations onstage may not be an option if your opponent knows what their doing.

I found that taking DK off stage is a good idea at lower percentages, HOWEVER his bair can seriously harm your recovery (especially when using bombs) AND still allow him to make it onto the stage without being gimped by a tether grabbed ledge, his dair is also a lot stronger then ours, however, there is a silver lining for us, DK's vertical recovery is absolute TRASH, after a mere dair at low percentages, he cant recover, since DK's recovery is so predictable, getting a nice dair is actually alot easier then on most characters.

Things that Samus needs to look out for

DEFINATLY his bair. It comes out so fast, has very little lag and very good range. He can FH or SH this move and still have plenty of time to avoid spam. His bair also is a real pain in the *** when offstage, he can hit us with 3! (maybe even 4 depending on how high above the stage he is) bairs before he has to return to the stage, so be very careful.

DK's tilts are also a pain, his filt actually rivals our own, it comes out quick and ends quick, he can easily create space and force us offstage if need be. His utilt stops any dair approaches and can keep us busy for a while, whilst his dsmash has so much range its frightning. His dsmash also eats through homing missles, so a missle to running attack approach is not optional either, HOWEVER, dsmash does have some lag at the end of it, please for god sake punish it, this is where you can use your grabs for setups. It is also important to note that his fsmash can HIT US ON THE EDGE.

Stages that work well for Samus

Norfair and Battlefield. Norfair simply allows us to abuse his dreadful vertical recovery to the maximum. Although the lava will prevent him from dying, it will rise his percentage up to the stage where samus can actually get some nice Horizontal kos (since Norfair's ceiling is so **** high). When the lava waves/bursts come into play, dk has a very hard time dodging them AND samus's spam, so this is a perfect stage for us to cp.

Battlefield should be a obvious cp/choice to any Samus main. Samus excels on platforms, uair, nair, utilt, missles, zair the lot of them all **** very hard on this stage, and since DK is such a large target, plenty of shield pressure can be applied when you get him onto the platforms, go for plenty of SH Uairs for easy damage/pressure and a few missles/zairs will keep him up there for a while, this stage, like norfair, is a dream for Samus, if Norfair is banned/crossed off, choose this, and vice versa.

Stages that are horrible for Samus

Yoshis Island and Castle Siege. Castle Siege absolutly destroys us on part 2 simply because of the statues, they stop our missles from reaching our target, they make zair's range much shorter and this gives DK the ability to not be effected by our spam, this stage you should avoid at all costs.

 

[NO-IDea]

Very nice, KillerJawz.

I would like to mention DK's ledge-guarding. When DK charges his neutral+B, it's hitbox is extremely powerful where he pulls back his arm (particularly at and behind him.) And, fully charged, he has invicibility frames. All in all, just be wary of this and don't roll back onto stage.

 

[FIERCE]

hmm new characters!
I'll write more later, but here are some short thoughts on these I guess ^^


Zero Suit Samus- I honestly think this is one of samus' advantaged matchups. I've always felt that it was near 55-45 or 60-40 in samus' favor. i've played Raretruffle, Erow, and Fierce, and I could be wrong, but I've always felt pretty comfortable with the matchup. Samus' zair and spams outrange her forward b and other moves forcing her to approach. her crawl is good at getting around this though, and her kill setups and kill moves work better than samus, but samus has a pretty decent time comboing her and even playing offstage.

Wah, Hive ***** me at BIOIII. But to add input. Samus can outcamp ZSS which makes it really hard to approach and any Power Shielded attack from ZSS can lead to disastrous effects on us. ): I had to go Zelda to even stand a chance although I wonder how Peach would have worked. Not very well, I think. At least not my Peach.

 

[IsmaR]

Omg hai FIERCE :D

 

[Rhyme]

DDD: I don't really feel like covering. There's an entire topic dedicated to him, so it should be unnecessary to say anything else.

DK: Jawz did a pretty good job with this, but there's some stuff that I would like to add.

DKs will try to roll towards (or through) you at times, which seems to be a bad zone for Samus in this matchup. If you are good with the timing then upB can stop this, but fear of Usmash/Dsmash causes me to use different options. Uair has enough hitboxes that it will usually catch him as he becomes vulnerable, and Uair has some of Samus' best follow-up options.

Bombs are amazing in this matchup because DK is large and will have a tough time moving past them. Bombs also let you escape some of DKs more powerful attacks and setups. Also, as a general rule, attacking DK from above is not a good idea. DK is strong in this area whereas much of Samus' strength lies in horizontal zoning.

Stick to homing missiles while DK is off-stage. He doesn't have an aerial option to avoid most of them, so they are free damage at the very least. Sometimes, missiles will lead to a Zair/UCS and then to something else. Again, even if it doesn't flow into anything, your purpose is to continually keep him off balance.

Also, Fsmash can hit a character while (s)he is hanging from the ledge. Don't fall for it.

Zero Suit: I would say that this match-up is pretty even. These two characters share many of the same good/bad stages, so counterpicks/bans should generally be reserved for the stages that you feel most/least comfortable on. Zair spam will not get you very far against a good Zero Suit, but Zair does its fair share of locking her down options-wise so spam anyway.

This is another matchup where you should think twice before attacking from above. When you're below Zero Suit, her options are basically to downB or to air-dodge. Pay attention to which way she is facing to get a better idea of how you are going to punish her for being in this position. If you Uair early enough that only the last hitbox would hit her then you will be able to punish her escape option.

After playing a good Zero Suit, you'll learn that her recovery isn't actually all that limited. DownB has brief invincibility and a potential, very powerful hitbox that can spike if you're not careful. She also has overB to quickly get to the ledge. However, tethers cannot grab the ledge. MBB has a proxy hitbox that prevents tether from grabbing, followed by the actual explosion which keeps tetherers from grappling to the ledge. The two together are a powerful tool for limiting her recovery options. If she misses the ledge because of the bomb, grab it yourself and she'll sometimes be too low to recover. If she grabs, the hitbox means that she must hang there and wait which gives you a chance to whip out a Nair/Dair. If she sees it coming (and has enough height) and downB back to the stage, you will usually get to punish her. Samus is amazing at limiting this character's recovery options.

Toon Link: I have little experience with this matchup, so I have very little to say. This character has good tools for camping Samus and for avoiding being gimped by her. He has plenty of kill moves to avoid once you reach that certain percent, so surviving long enough against him can be tricky. Try to keep your own projectiles floating around, and make him approach you if you can. By staying grounded, you retain options like rising Zair, Ftilt, Dtilt and UCS, all of which are vital spacing tools and/or combo starters vs TL.

 

[Cherry64]

I've no idea how to do good against TL but I do know that when we SH we get super ***** by his spam game. our spam game relies on missiles canceling, but we get ***** way too hard before we can get anything through. I look forward to reading this match up guide.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Just a small thing worth mention: DK is a character where zoning is important. (don't know what zones are? http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=16108)

Some particular zones I like to watch out for are:

Bair zones
Super Armored Giant Punch
Auto combos (dtilt -> downb)

Also, I disagree that D3 is THAT bad. Kill me if you want, but it's never been like.. that FREAKING hard for me. Maybe I just haven't played a good Dedede xD

Zair beats Toon Link's projectiles, and so does CS. Watch out for his Xyro combo and Zair/Aerial combos. Besides that, you outrange him, out projectile him, and can out melee him (jabs/tilts).

 

[IsmaR]

I agree with Rhyme and Smash G O D as far as Dedede goes. Any stages with walls/walkoffs **** you over, and he can kill easier than you. Proper spacing(not spamming, only incompetent players won't be able to powershield/grab everything) really helps, and knowing your zones can help you live longer.

DK I'd say is a 50/50 match-up. I've discussed it with one of the best DKs, and he agreed. DK's large size, rather poor recovery(though he can live very long with good DI) and half of his moves having a bit of lag work for us. As Rhyme said, bombs are very useful in this fight. I've dodge early U/Dsmash kills, dodged punishable aerials(SH Uair, Nair, occasionally Bair, Fair) and they disrupt his momentum. His ability to kill as early as 70% with a well timed Giant Punch or Usmash is crucial to watch out for. He's also pretty quick, and has good air game. Finally, I suggest trying to capitalize on multi-hit moves(Screw Attack, Uair, Fair, Usmash) as they will usually pull him in because of his size, and Nair because it's so **** good. This can work against you if you aren't careful, because he has very powerful and quick moves to punish with. One more thing I've noticed is that Up B off the ground can clank with some of his high priority moves.

 

[Hive]

I know its been debated once already, and I don't want to go into it too much more....
but seriously there is no reason a high level ddd loses to a samus. At the very least we're talking 70-30 to 75-25 in his favor imo....

 

[Xyro77]

Link vs samus is on front page.


ill chime in on the current char in a sec

 

[phi1ny3]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221578
Furries.
Females.
Matchups.
Discuss.

 

[IsmaR]

Go into it if you wish. 90-10 is just ridiculous as far as I see it. 70-30 is pushing it, but that's more realistic at least.

And I'll reply on the Lucario boards for that. It seems too bias in both places, so I'd rather take the lesser of two devils.

 

[RaigothDagon]

At first I didn't believe the matchup vs DDD was that bad, but now I do see where you guys are coming from. However, I refuse to accept that a DDD has that much advantage.

We may have to get in his face to do damage, but there is still a possibility for good spacing. For instance, I started seeing my spacing was off with fair and was getting punished by grabs. However, when properly spaced, I was able to pull it off with no bad consequences.

I started punishing hardcore with my nair (sorry, dont remember exact situations) and I was grabbed/utilted very little of the time, and therefore used it in this matchup in place of uair. I think we will still have an unfavorable matchup here, no doubt, but I think we can improve these ridiculous ratios if we can share what works and how we should approach.

 

[Lobos]

So about TL vs Samus......

I haven't really played any top samus players but from the few I've played, Samus has a hard time dealing with TL projectiles, is a big and slow target. Bombs beat out all of Samus' projectiles. Not sure with the arrows or boomerang tho.
Samus' Zair is longer but isn't faster.
Both can gimp each other with ledge spikes.
TL is faster and can out pressure samus.
Both can have problems killing.
I'll add more as I think of stuff but 70-30 TL or 60-40 TL

 

[ph00tbag]

How existential can you get?

ZSS should beat Samus. None of Samus' aerial options can really beat ZSS if she's spacing right. The moment Samus jumps, she should be ready to eat a dash attack, because it will hit before most of her aerial options come out (nair is an exception, but doesn't have the range or knockback to be used as a reliable approach). ZSS's job is to space just out of ftilt/dtilt range, and punish anything Samus does with dash attack or grab. Samus's job is to stay grounded, and space dtilt and ftilt. She can feel free to spam if she has room, but be aware that most people should be able to PS homing missiles cold.

When the gap is closed, Samus is easier for ZSS to juggle than vice versa, but Samus can zone from below a much better. Either character will have difficulties getting back to the ground.

Samus will most likely be dying later than ZSS, and she's difficult to edgeguard, because missiles and zair are more effective against airborne opponents, not to mention she has so many recovery options. ZSS on the other hand will need to be careful, as Samus's offstage game is very strong, with a powerful spike, and a lot of offstage mobility.

ZSS can outright KO Samus before Samus can outright KO ZSS. Samus has always been weak to off-the-top KOs and ZSS's uair has been known to KO even Snake off the top under the right conditions, so Samus will need to avoid being above ZSS at high percents. ZSS will also be looking to use bair to KO at high percents. Unfortunately for Samus, most of her KOers require a little set-up to land, and they are generally less powerful than ZSS's (it makes no sense, but there you have it).

Overall, I believe ZSS should be winning most of the exchanges, and has a higher damage output. If she's patient, and spaces properly she should ultimately be able to win out over Samus.

 

[shlike]

zss is sexier

9-1 in favor of zss

 

[Xyro77]

shlike, some on my man. Add to the discussion. You have fought me before, what did u think? what did u learn? ect

 

[shlike]

imo its 6-4 zss

although samus can outcamp zss, zss absolutely destroys samus in the air. Most of samus' kills are gimp/spike kills and zss can recover a bunch of different ways, gimping zss isnt impossible its just a bit harder. Also i think zss wins up close as well.

the only options samus has against zss is to force her to approach but even then powershielding isnt all that hard.

so projectile spam mixed with grabs while forcing her to approach is the way to go vs zss.

samus does not want to be above zss EVER her uair is 4 frames juggles at low percents and can ko around 100 to 120 % depending how high samus is.

xyro we should get some games in at the next hobo so you can have more exp in this MU.

 

[Magik0722]

hah as if you play any matchup differently shlike