kupo15
Smash Hero
Is that so? I thought there was some test proving that there was a stale system. I forget the specifics..
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Hitstun/shield stun Thread
- Thread starter kupo15
- Start date
This .
Sigh i hear alot about how broken hitstun 12.5 is. Yet no one seems to have a camera to show all us non belivers whats so broken about it. Come on 1 !!! vid somethings not right with that. >_>
im not saying i dont belive you all, but i would like to see it for myself so i can gawk and make disgusted sighing sounds.
also for those of you that belive that 12.5 hitstun is broken or "too good" does the jab/laser lock code help?
im not saying i dont belive you all, but i would like to see it for myself so i can gawk and make disgusted sighing sounds.
also for those of you that belive that 12.5 hitstun is broken or "too good" does the jab/laser lock code help?
zxeon
Smash Lord
After playing on 10% hitstun for a while now I think it's too low. Once my friend and I started DIing away from each other it turned into regular brawl.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Ok, I thought that since knockback is calc after damage, and since stale moves affect damage, it also affect knockback. You learn something new everyday...Shall I add this to list of codes?
I should have had vids but my plans with my friends fell through. Ill see if I can have some good matches with the next best opponent at my school and record them.
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
You are correct. However, in Brawl, both damage (and therefore indirect knockback) AND direct knockback decay separately.
If you want. Stale moves have affected Brawl's metagame a lot, but I'm not sure it's a positive effect.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
What characters do you guys typically use?
Stale damage is alright, but stale knockback a bad thing IMO. Honestly, if there was a code that set the staleness of attacks to somewhere in between then I think it would be for the best. The reason I say in between is cause most characters have a hard time comboing because of knockback, so if all moves functioned at half stale knockback it won't detract too much from KO's and should still combo fairly well. In any case, that's just me pulling crap out of my ***, if there was a code to stop staleness that is a step up I think. If we could adjust the staleness, even better.
MuBa
Smash Lord
I am very positive that we could find a code for adjusting staleness.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Okay, so 13% hitstun has its ******** moments. I was thinking about dropping to 11%, but wanted to check here first to see what you guys thought. I have almost all of Colorado involved in this now, so if you need us to test for anything, let me know.
Btw, Lucas has some odd properties on his attacks. Like, all his aerials aside from uair have next-to-nothing for hitstun. He's still good, but I figured I'd let you guys know and see if it is a bug or not.
Btw, Lucas has some odd properties on his attacks. Like, all his aerials aside from uair have next-to-nothing for hitstun. He's still good, but I figured I'd let you guys know and see if it is a bug or not.
Revven
FrankerZ
This is probably because his aerials (except Uair) don't put the opponent into the tumble until much higher percents. Nair has a strange sweetspot and Fair is strange all on its own, Bair is obvious, it's meant for spiking therefore it shouldn't really put anyone into a tumble to begin with (until again, higher percents).
I could be wrong though.
MBlaze
Smash Champion
We need a proper no jab lock code to go with hitstun.
Magus420
Smash Master
Some or maybe all projectiles in Melee actually decay similarly to Brawl's decay system. It's most noticeable with things like Samus' charged shot.
Exactly what I had found.
zxeon, we actually agree.
But really, for the people that say 12.5% is too high...how?
Please, tell me the CPUs you're fighting are thinking beings which know how to utilize Smash DI or simply DI, in general, to escape or shorten a combo. The truth is, CPUs suck at DI. Real people on the other hand can escape. Most combos with 12.5% on computers are 0-high% or 0-death, but that's not because the hitstun is too high, it's because the CPU doesn't know how to escape.
Play the game with real, competitive people, such as zxeon did, and then try to tell me. For example, Fox's Dair can be SDI'd out of after regular DI to the same side, ending what could have been large, extended combo. Leaf and I played last night, and despite the horrid coast to coast lag, I could still SDI out of his Dairs.
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
... Wouldn't the lag make that easier?
Starscream
Smash Ace
Meh, it was a bit of a double-edged sword. The timing was off so I couldn't DI when I wanted to directly after a hit, but at the same time neither of us could pull off combos to even close to their full extent. I've SDI'd out of combos irl as well though, so it's not that one example that I'm banking my experience off of.
Finns7
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2008
- Messages
- 896
Ill upload some matches I did with 10 percent histun and I feel that it is too much idk fox can easily combo until like 60% in a matter of seconds using his utilts that lead to nair's to bairs, Links zair sets up jab locks 2 easily (why am I complaining lol) idk Im going lower it and test it can someone give me code that is not 10% but not 05%. utitls are too overpowered, zss is broken if used correctly. If anyone wants to test it out over wifi pm me you fc.
Magus420
Smash Master
It does not affect all special moves. The only ones affected that I know of are all non-item (like turnips & Link's bombs) and hittable (stuff like lasers aren't hittable) projectiles, such as Sheik's up-B hitbox (yes it's a projectile), Zelda's din's fire, Samus' charged shot/missiles/bombs, Doc's pills, Mario/Luigi's fireballs, ICs ice blocks, Yoshi's eggs, Link/YLink's boomerangs, Pika/Pichu's thunber jolts, M2's shadow balls, and G&W's sausages.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Recommended hitstun value, you guize?
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
@Interim
The SBR is going with 10% but they think that may be too much. I'm trying out 9%, and honestly I don't notice much of a difference from 10%, but I haven't done much testing with it at all.
The SBR is going with 10% but they think that may be too much. I'm trying out 9%, and honestly I don't notice much of a difference from 10%, but I haven't done much testing with it at all.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
I'll give 10 a try, but only because it's you, Mooks. I've kinda stopped taking most of SBR seriously by now. =/
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
@Finns7
I *think* that 9% hitstun would be putting 4.9 into the not rounded variable thing on the hex generator. There actually isn't a specific formula to convert the percentage you want and the number to put into the hex. Assuming what I have inferred is right, 4.8 into the hex generator would give you the hex needed for 8%.
I *think* that 9% hitstun would be putting 4.9 into the not rounded variable thing on the hex generator. There actually isn't a specific formula to convert the percentage you want and the number to put into the hex. Assuming what I have inferred is right, 4.8 into the hex generator would give you the hex needed for 8%.
Well, the guys that seem the most interested in the SBR are the Kishes, and that's who I've been talking to mostly. Almost everyone else is interested, but they don't participate in the discussions that much. So hopefully that gives you a frame of reference of who I'm referring to as SBR.
kupo15
Smash Hero
With what other codes? You can't just say a hit stun value without the rest of the codes. MAD, gravity, and the form of lag canceling make a huge difference in deciding the level of hit stun
If your playing with regular brawl gravity, l canceling and regular brawl AD, try 12.5%. The code bit is in the bottom of the OP.
Makkun
Smash Journeyman
I think 11-12.5% seems good, although I have nobody around here to play with. I really do enjoy 15% though. >_>
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
MAD, S-canceling, Auto L-cancel, No trip, Infinite replay, the yummy PT codes, and hitstun. I think that's all of it right there.
Hey Kupo, PLEASE pass on Magus's code idea to PhantomWings. I think both of us can agree that his idea is the perfect compromise of both of our ideologies behind aerial lag while being better than both. I'd very much love to see an auto l-cancel effect with a true l-cancel that negates all lag from a powershield but at the cost to a third of your shield's strength. It would be too awesome to not try that out.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Honestly, I still haven't seen much of a reason that a higher hitstun value shouldn't be used. One character (mk) shouldn't be what we base a hitstun constant on. If he gets out of hand while everyone seems more or less ok, we can just ban him (better yet we can physically take him out of the character select screen... lol). We shouldn't be thinking about him at all when evaluating what hitstun level to use, and instead make him an afterthought, since it's clear he's a level above the rest of the cast.
I really think that +.1 on top of the default .4 of brawl (the "10%" modifier) is about the lowest we should go - not the highest (note this is on a ALC+regular grav+regular AD setting). After using +.125 (the "12.5%" modifier), the only "issues" I'm seeing is that many characters can do 40-60% combos from low percents and that fox's drill could potentially result in an infinite.
I have gotten off very few large "combos" against humans that would actually register in training mode if you tried them, so I don't see this as that big of a problem. Any death "combos" (read: strings) that I or anyone I've played against got was the result of poor DI, and/or poor timing on counter aerials/airdodge use. As far as I'm concerned, someone who screws up their DI or messes up the timing on their counter aerial/airdodge deserves to be hit again.
As for the fox dair infinite... I have found that it is possible for dair -> dair to combo against most (probably all) characters starting from zero with the +.125 modifier (I only tested ganon and jiggs, but I figure it should work on everyone in between them, too). It is very hard to start at low percents, however; with smash DI it's more than avoidable. I'm not sure yet if there's enough time for fox to react to your smash DI at higher percents before you leave stun, so this is definitely something that needs to be tested. Obviously if you don't smash DI you will get *****, but as long as it's avoidable that isn't really a problem. I will say this, though: if there is time for fox to react to smash DI at higher percents (50-60%+, depending on the character), then he will be able to do this infinite regardless of what hitstun value we use. Even with no hitstun modifier whatsoever, he can start a dair infinite on ganon as early as 65%. If fox becomes the new mk with hitstun, then he may also be up for a ban.
edit:
I really think that +.1 on top of the default .4 of brawl (the "10%" modifier) is about the lowest we should go - not the highest (note this is on a ALC+regular grav+regular AD setting). After using +.125 (the "12.5%" modifier), the only "issues" I'm seeing is that many characters can do 40-60% combos from low percents and that fox's drill could potentially result in an infinite.
I have gotten off very few large "combos" against humans that would actually register in training mode if you tried them, so I don't see this as that big of a problem. Any death "combos" (read: strings) that I or anyone I've played against got was the result of poor DI, and/or poor timing on counter aerials/airdodge use. As far as I'm concerned, someone who screws up their DI or messes up the timing on their counter aerial/airdodge deserves to be hit again.
As for the fox dair infinite... I have found that it is possible for dair -> dair to combo against most (probably all) characters starting from zero with the +.125 modifier (I only tested ganon and jiggs, but I figure it should work on everyone in between them, too). It is very hard to start at low percents, however; with smash DI it's more than avoidable. I'm not sure yet if there's enough time for fox to react to your smash DI at higher percents before you leave stun, so this is definitely something that needs to be tested. Obviously if you don't smash DI you will get *****, but as long as it's avoidable that isn't really a problem. I will say this, though: if there is time for fox to react to smash DI at higher percents (50-60%+, depending on the character), then he will be able to do this infinite regardless of what hitstun value we use. Even with no hitstun modifier whatsoever, he can start a dair infinite on ganon as early as 65%. If fox becomes the new mk with hitstun, then he may also be up for a ban.
edit:
lol if you used 4.anything then you could literally throw someone off the ledge and they would never come back. The default brawl uses is .40, and each "percent" increase people refer to is .4 + whatever the percent is in decimal, so 8% would be .48, 9% would be .49, 10% would be .5, 12.5% would be .525, and so on.MookieRah said:
kupo15
Smash Hero
sure thing
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
My bad, i meant to put .49
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Hey guys, I think we should do more playtesting in training mode with the hitstun mods. Set the CPU to "control" and just play a regular match (all infinite time style), and leave the "help" thing up, so you can see when what P1 is doing is an actual combo. I know there's no stale moves here, but it should at least give us an idea on what actually works, and what we can airdodge/attack out of. A lot of things might not be as broken as they seem if we were to find out they aren't a true combo. The "help" thing will probably interfere with the fight somewhat, but hopefully it won't be too bad.
kupo15
Smash Hero
OH, so your saying that training mode will adjust its system of what it registers as "consecutive hits" to the hitstun we are using. Thats an excellent idea! Too bad the lack of decay system might screw the data a bit :\
Magus' idea is brilliant. It's original while being eerily similar at the same time. I think that's the best combination. Having to risk shield breaks for speed and combos is one of the best ideas i've ever heard of.
Also, out of curiosity MookieRah, do you like the melee air dodge system and do you think it should be in brawl + or do you prefer brawls airdodge?
Also, out of curiosity MookieRah, do you like the melee air dodge system and do you think it should be in brawl + or do you prefer brawls airdodge?
kupo15
Smash Hero
Please, not here ^_^
SketchHurricane
Smash Ace
I don't think it warrants a ban going off the dair alone. I don't think any of fox's other moves are very combo friendly, but I haven't really experimented with him. I do know that he can get some guaranteed kills from launcher > uair setups, at least on some of the lighter characters.
I was playing today with 12.5% and ALC, and the matches were pretty fun. I was mostly sheik, vs IC's. Shiek can get a few small combos off, but when the opponent DIs away it becomes pretty hard since Shiek's airspeed is ghey. I'm pretty sure that's the story with most characters until we get an air-momentum hack. Of course, the ftilt lock is a problem. I could catch Falcon in it until about 100%, so we should definitely look into a tilt lock solution if possible. So far, it seems like Falcon gains the most in the combo department, though! A lot of his stuff also gets hampered with DI, and your reaction time has to be pretty good if the opponent start switching it up.
One really cool combo I found with shiek was fsmash > dash attack > tilt lock > whatever. I don't think it's possible if the opponent DI's away though. You have to start the fsmash from point-blank range, at 0% to land the dash attack (actually, you probably have a little leeway, but again, DI).
My friend also played a little Marth, and his fair chain is pretty beastly with hitstun. I can't say for sure, but you might be able to get a guaranteed Ken combo off...
I'll try to record the matches next time.
oliwonder
Smash Cadet
that's a little ignorant to assume us anti 12.5 ppl are testing with CPUs. For clarification, I based my observations with my friends. Obviously, they all know how to DI, and it did help to escape combos. And of course, we all know how to read DI and follow accordingly. But the problem is that even after DIing away, we were unable to counter with an attack or airdodge. This is what allowed the attacker to "combo": the person getting hit only has the option to DI and can't do anything else. It shouldn't be like that.
Dan_X
Smash Lord
when you DI you move outside the range of a series of attacks, you should easily be able to DI throughout the duration of your hitstun, then attack when you can.
I play on 13%, I think it's perfect, but I'm going to try 12.5% because that seems to be the current fad. It's definately not too much though, especially when the enemy has a higher %. As soon as the knock back increases thanks to higher percents comboing becomes more difficult because DI becomes even easier....
If I can avoid attacks and then attack back then I don't know what you're doing wrong.
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
12.5% feels the same as 13%. Don't fool yourselves.
zxeon
Smash Lord
11% is as high as I'll go.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
I do still hold some respect for the Kishes, so there's that, at least. I'll try dropping it to 12.5.
Sheik might be able to cg with bthrow against pika and other similar weight characters, but I dunno for sure since I don't have anyone over to test it with right now. Falcon can legit dthrow>dash attack> fj uair uair, land> sh dair a good portion of the cast. Whether it kills or not is up for debate.
What's MAD?
Right now, I'm using grav mod, dash dance, hitstun 13% (gonna drop to 12.5 tonight), triple jump glitch fix (Sonic still randomly goes into his tumble after doing an up b, even if he does it straight from the ground), damage mods, and maybe one or two others I can't remember. Any recommended standard for competitive play? As is, i've landed some disgusting combos, particularly with Marth and Falcon. Squirtle is a jerk, too.
Oh, Melee air-dodge, too. I find it a necessity with higher grav. I'd prefer the game without wavedashing, but if it's the only way, then whatever. I also have auto l-cancel, and will continue to until there's a higher stun on shield, since a missed l-cancel adds no depth to the broken shield system currently.
Sheik might be able to cg with bthrow against pika and other similar weight characters, but I dunno for sure since I don't have anyone over to test it with right now. Falcon can legit dthrow>dash attack> fj uair uair, land> sh dair a good portion of the cast. Whether it kills or not is up for debate.
What's MAD?
Right now, I'm using grav mod, dash dance, hitstun 13% (gonna drop to 12.5 tonight), triple jump glitch fix (Sonic still randomly goes into his tumble after doing an up b, even if he does it straight from the ground), damage mods, and maybe one or two others I can't remember. Any recommended standard for competitive play? As is, i've landed some disgusting combos, particularly with Marth and Falcon. Squirtle is a jerk, too.
Oh, Melee air-dodge, too. I find it a necessity with higher grav. I'd prefer the game without wavedashing, but if it's the only way, then whatever. I also have auto l-cancel, and will continue to until there's a higher stun on shield, since a missed l-cancel adds no depth to the broken shield system currently.