Hitstun/shield stun Thread

[kupo15]

Here is two vids. This is my first time playing with 12% from 12.5% so its a little sloppy but there are some good combos...

Hit stun 12%
ALC


kupo (Falcon) vs MeEPO (Fox)
kupo (Ganon) vs MeEPO (Fox)

 

[storm92]

Leaf and I just played some matches.
It seems that, at least to me, 11.5% hitstun (what we were testing) was a little too low.
There were only real cookie cutter combos happening, which is only slightly better than Brawl.
12.5 or 12 seems like it's the best, for me at least.

We didn't have ALC on though, due to Wi-Fi desyncs. So that is definitely a large factor.

 

[MookieRah]

After watching those vids Kupo, I can safely say that is too much stun. That said, it looks like A LOT of fun.

Also, your fox friend needs to start drilling to a shine off the ledge. Shine has stun now, it's got a melee gimp effect. It's pretty sick.

 

[Shell]

Exceptional falcon combos and YES! finishers there, kupo.

So far I'm enjoying 10% stun, but with 1.175 gravity/1.065 damage. I'm not really sure what this would translate to in regular gravity.

 

[kupo15]

After watching those vids Kupo, I can safely say that is too much stun. That said, it looks like A LOT of fun.

Also, your fox friend needs to start drilling to a shine off the ledge. Shine has stun now, it's got a melee gimp effect. It's pretty sick.

He's not the most experienced Fox player, but his DI isn't too bad which is the main thing. Why is it too much stun? I was having trouble with some of those combos. I decided to start big (18%) and work my way down. From playing with 12%, it didn't feel like too much. It may go down slightly but we need a lot more testing.

Keep in mind that he did not have perfect DI. It would have made the CGs impossible if he did. So don't tear those vids apart, he is all I have atm for school...kinda. I will be playing with a VERY experienced melee player who knows his stuff. You should base your opinions one those vids. These were just fillers since ppl are dying to see some videos. The ones you should take seriously are against G, Ed, FlipnRed and ARES (if I can get him to play)

What is your criteria for it being "too much?"

 

[Wind Owl]

Chibo and I were playing 11% and it seemed pretty balanced.

 

[kupo15]

Chibo and I were playing 11% and it seemed pretty balanced.

But you used MAD...that makes up the 1% of me using BAD

 

[cAm8ooo]

lol BAD...... I think thats my favorite acronym. It makes me laugh every time.

 

[Wind Owl]

But you used MAD...that makes up the 1% of me using BAD

Now, that's just silly.

I know we've been over this, but what don't you like about MAD again? Honestly I find it gives me more freedom, even excluding WDing. Airdodging straight into the edge is a GREAT recovery option for a lot of characters, and you get to choose where you airdodge instead of directly into **** if you get predicted.

 

[kupo15]

Now, that's just silly.

I know we've been over this, but what don't you like about MAD again? Honestly I find it gives me more freedom, even excluding WDing. Airdodging straight into the edge is a GREAT recovery option for a lot of characters, and you get to choose where you airdodge instead of directly into **** if you get predicted.

lol, I wasnt harping on MAD in that post actually. It just allows you to combo at lower stun because of the mobility and it makes some characters faster than running with options.

The type of air dodge and lag canceling you use affects the stun amount...BAD and l canceling require more stun than MAD and s canceling, thats all..

and you get to choose where you airdodge instead of directly into **** if you get predicted.

How is this bad? If your predicted, you should get punished...

 

[Wind Owl]

Well, Chibo and I weren't wavedashing almost at all (lol) and I still liked it better.

Also we were using L-canceling

I guess my real question was just... is (stacked) WDing the reason you don't like MAD?

 

[zxeon]

Well, Chibo and I weren't wavedashing almost at all (lol) and I still liked it better.

Also we were using L-canceling

I guess my real question was just... is (stacked) WDing the reason you don't like MAD?

I think its because he uses the nunchuck and wiimote and it might be a little hard to do.

 

[kupo15]

Well, Chibo and I weren't wavedashing almost at all (lol) and I still liked it better.

Also we were using L-canceling

I guess my real question was just... is (stacked) WDing the reason you don't like MAD?

Sucks, I guess Chibo doesnt like auto l cancel? :\ So if you didnt really wavedash and you liked it better, why did you use the code?

Thats one of the main reasons. Fine, ill let you know some stuff ill be covering in my vid. I wanted it to be a surprise if you didnt know about it. Here are some stuff you can do. Just take it at face value and don't assume anything unless you ask me

1. Since you are allowed to freely move while in the AD, you can AD forward but waveland backward. You can also AD in place, then move. You can also do nice little S curved and 1/4 circle ADes if you want style points...

2. Do Ike's counter and eruption after a WD. You can also b stick and b reversal this

3. Pika can WD out of a QAC into a dsmash or anything

4. Not everyone is equal with the gimping after an AD. Because you can get "ungimped" after throwing items, those who can spawn their own items like TL have an advantage. They can also AD>throw item>AD/Up b. Ppl like sonic an snake can AD>throw item up>up b>catch item>AD>throw item>AD. They can obtain these items through ZZS or by catching the items thrown at them.

5. There is no delay (or minimal delay as to not be noticed) after a WD so you can do Sliding brick walls that shouldnt happen. Some are sliding Snake jabs, sliding ike Fsmashes (no more start up lag weakness) sliding Ike ftilt Ftilt. You can also move around in a wd with all of your options in tact AND you can do then at ANY time compared to melee which means you are never really in a bad position.

6. With the increased mobility + all of your options, you can bypass the weakness your character has. Ike and Ganon are now fast along the ground so they can land their devastating attacks easier. You can bypass probably all approach problems you have since baiting and retaliating is buffed. Like for example, Pit has a hard time approaching Marth cause of his range, now you can WD back and quickly move in to counter it when you couldnt do it before. This can be applied for most if not all approach problems characters have. Simply put, the mobility is just "too good" while offering all options that you can use at all times.

DDing would be better for giving you mobility with restrictions. You can't use your shield instantly, you are limited to grabs and dash attack mostly unless you time it perfectly when you change directions. But after the dash animation is over, you can't DD which is another restriction. You can only go so far with more, but limited option where as WDing, you can go anywhere with all options all the time.. WDing in brawl can actually lose depth since it is such a powerful form of movement that it overshadows other forms of movement becoming the best form of movement.

WDing in melee is not as "homogenized" as it is in brawl. So the question comes down to this. Do you want a game where you fight based on knowledge of weaknesses and what characters are capable within their own weaknesses and strengths, or do you want a game dominated by fake outs.


Those are some that I can think of off the top of my head.

I think its because he uses the nunchuck and wiimote and it might be a little hard to do.

Shut up with this crap. I would never use the wiichuck with MAD...ever.

 

[zxeon]

Do you use a nuncuck? I have no idea.

I thought I already explained about how throwing items after your airdodge is useless.

 

[kupo15]

Do you use a nuncuck? I have no idea.

I thought I already explained about how throwing items after your airdodge is useless.

I do use the wiichuck but i wouldnt use that as a reason for not liking MAD. Thats absurd. How is the items after the air dodge useless? You are essentially giving certain characters a form of BAD when others are stuck with MAD... and those characters can have more elaborate air strategies using this when others can't....kinda unbalanced

 

[zxeon]

I do use the wiichuck but i wouldnt use that as a reason for not liking MAD. Thats absurd. How is the items after the air dodge useless? You are essentially giving certain characters a form of BAD when others are stuck with MAD... and those characters can have more elaborate air strategies using this when others can't....kinda unbalanced

You have to wait till the animation for the airdodge is over then you have to throw the item because it wont let you drop it and after all that you will have lost enough hight that you would have been better off just going about your normal recovery. If yo don't believe me try it yourself.

C'mon Kupo I already covered this. Do a search or something before you bring up old disproven "advantages".

 

[kupo15]

You have to wait till the animation for the airdodge is over then you have to throw the item because it wont let you drop it and after all that you will have lost enough hight that you would have been better off just going about your normal recovery. If yo don't believe me try it yourself.

C'mon Kupo I already covered this. Do a search or something before you bring up old disproven "advantages".

I have tried it myself, duh, and Im not saying that as a form of recovery either...idk where you got that idea from..>_>

I dont see how you dont see it advantages if some characters have more options in the air than others. Its like, "hmmmm, This character who has a downgraded form of BAD (and slightly better form at the same time since you can changed directions) vs this character who has MAD in a primarily air dominated game...nah, no advantage at all...."

 

[zxeon]

I have tried it myself, duh, and Im not saying that as a form of recovery either...idk where you got that idea from..>_>

I dont see how you dont see it advantages if some characters have more options in the air than others.

It kind of fails for every kind purpose you could try to apply to use it for and if it's that much of a problem Phantom Wings could just fix the code.

Advantages are nothing new. *cough*Charizard, Pit, and Metaknight can glide*cough*

 

[kupo15]

It kind of fails for every kind purpose you could try to apply to use it for and if it's that much of a problem Phantom Wings could just fix the code.

Really? So if TL gets launched in the air, it would not be a good idea for him to pull out a bomb, AD your attack, throw the bomb at you and then get out of the gimp mode with all of his options including another AD or up b? Isn't the point of gimp mode after an AD to actually gimp you so you have to use it wisely? This kinda throws that out the window....

And I don't know if its possible to remove this since you are not in the blinking state due to Rob freezing the game...

 

[zxeon]

Really? So if TL gets launched in the air, it would not be a good idea for him to pull out a bomb, AD your attack, throw the bomb at you and then get out of the gimp mode with all of his options including another AD or up b? Isn't the point of gimp mode after an AD to actually gimp you so you have to use it wisely?

And I don't know if its possible to remove this since you are not in the blinking state due to Rob freezing the game...

He can go ahead and do it doesn't mean it's gonna work.

 

[kupo15]

He can go ahead and do it doesn't mean it's gonna work.

Because ADing an attack at the right time clearly leaves you vulnerable from the attack you dodged...not to mention being able to counter by throwing an item back after the perfectly executed AD forcing an AD from them giving you the upper hand before you land...

 

[zxeon]

Because ADing an attack at the right time clearly leaves you vulnerable from the attack you dodged...not to mention being able to counter after the perfectly executed AD before you land...

It's not guaranteed to work. It's not like no one has ever gotten around a bomb before.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Would you like MAD if it was mixed with BAD kupo? So that everyone would get this same advantage?

 

[kupo15]

It's not guaranteed to work.

Nice, thats very convincing...

Would you like MAD if it was mixed with BAD kupo? So that everyone would get this same advantage?

No for the other reasons I stated, but it would be better. If you made this code, you might as well replace it with DD anyway because no one will use MAD over BAD unless they are close to the ground...it would also be a waste of coding space...

 

[zxeon]

Would you like MAD if it was mixed with BAD kupo? So that everyone would get this same advantage?

He is unreasonable.

 

[Dan_X]

He is unreasonable.

Yeah lol. I think wavedashing in Brawl is perfectly viable. You're over analyzing Kupo.

 

[krlos F.]

yes WD in Brawl is perfectly viable and u can do good combos and add more strategy to the game.

Well I've been tried 11.5% and looks great, its balanced, and u can scape some combos when u have a low % (with this % u can't lock your enemy with some attacks when he has low %) so if u want to do it u have to know your moves and know at what % is ok to do it (it's similar for 12.5% but at in here u can connect a combo easily and in 11.5% it's not THAT easy).

Guys just try at this %, honestly it's more balanced. Now I'm uploading 3 videos to youtube. of course I'm not pro lol but u can see how is the fight at this %.

 

[MookieRah]

I've been asking Kupo for a while to prove a lot of the assertions he has been making, cause a lot of the stuff he says like that sounds like it's all been thought up on paper, but not rigorously put to the test.I was actually going to try out his code set and see if I can break some characters today. I think 12% hitstun is a good bit too much and I'm going to come up with my own ridiculous combos to hopefully prove that.

Also, having or not having MAD doesn't justify 1% worth of stun. You are arbitrarily pulling a number out of your head. Most combos aren't affected *that* much by air dodging with stun, because you can no longer air dodge almost immediately to get out of things like you could before. It would mostly affect high percent combos, because a lot of that is about reading whether or not they will air dodge, perform an aerial, etc. If they use their air dodge and it backfires they will be punished, as they won't have another one to use. That said, I don't think MAD is a necessity.

I just had a new idea for an airdodge code. Could someone make it to where you can only airdodge once while you are over the stage, but airdodge infinitely if you are off the stage? We all know the game keeps track of this, because Bowser's infinite jumps and the like can only be done while on the stage, but the moment you move off of it you plummet to your death. I think a code like this would buff combos on the stage won't be affected by infinite airdodges, so offense is buffed. Recovering people would get a defense buff that prevents gimps and projectile spam, and defensive players now have to choose between DIing combos in an attempt to get off the stage for more dodges, but also putting themselves in a risky position off stage.

It's something to think about.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I just had a new idea for an airdodge code. Could someone make it to where you can only airdodge once while you are over the stage, but airdodge infinitely if you are off the stage? We all know the game keeps track of this, because Bowser's infinite jumps and the like can only be done while on the stage, but the moment you move off of it you plummet to your death.

I don't think the game really checks if you are over the stage, the trick simply comes into effect when there is ground immediately below you.

 

[CT Chia]

that idea wouldn't work because of gaps in stages, like on bridge of eldin (even though its banned) it would be odd to BAD in the middle but MAD on the sides. plus it just seems odd to completely change a mechanic like that mid game.

also, hitstun has to be slightly lower so you dont die so ridiculously early. as it is with 11% my average life % is MUCH lower cause its so long before u can stop ur momentum with a move and double jump. sorta like melee though lol, but its still a tad much, which is why i wanna try 10%

 

[Wind Owl]

I dunno, I thought it was perfectly fine. DI in Brawl is still MUCH better than in Melee, so you can still live longer than in Melee...

 

[kupo15]

I was actually going to try out his code set and see if I can break some characters today. I think 12% hitstun is a good bit too much and I'm going to come up with my own ridiculous combos to hopefully prove that..

Cool, let me know so I can hopefully disprove that ^_^

Also, having or not having MAD doesn't justify 1% worth of stun. You are arbitrarily pulling a number out of your head.

Well, I didnt intent it to be exactly 1%, but that it makes a little difference in percent. And actually I didn't realize until Chibo just posted that he used gravity. Im pretty sure we both can agree that gravity has a prominent effect on stun %. As an example, 12% in brawl's gravity might be perfect, but its too much with gravity which would explain why Chibo thinks 11% was good.

I just had a new idea for an airdodge code. Could someone make it to where you can only airdodge once while you are over the stage, but airdodge infinitely if you are off the stage? We all know the game keeps track of this, because Bowser's infinite jumps and the like can only be done while on the stage, but the moment you move off of it you plummet to your death.

Yea, as people said before me, I don't think that would work since Bowser's side b infinite works off of ISJR which only happens at the ground. He can't infinite in the air without something below him.

I've been asking Kupo for a while to prove a lot of the assertions he has been making, cause a lot of the stuff he says like that sounds like it's all been thought up on paper, but not rigorously put to the test

I think some of the 6 points I mentioned were legit. Some other points were just like....ok interesting....

 

[MookieRah]

I think some of the 6 points I mentioned were legit. Some other points were just like....ok interesting....

The reason I crack down on it is because it sounds very much like arguments people made when they found out how ridiculous Fox could be in Melee. If tech skill could be perfect then he could beat every character in the game with ease; however, nobody could ever utilize that much skill because it was seriously outside of what humans can do. Honestly, by human standards, I would place Marth ahead of Fox and Falco in terms of Melee. Anyways, I think you get what I mean by all this.

Yea, as people said before me, I don't think that would work since Bowser's side b infinite works off of ISJR which only happens at the ground. He can't infinite in the air without something below him.

Yup, it's definitely a no go. Oh wells, back to the drawing board.

OK, I just did a lil bit of stuff real quick. Here are some things that peepz should look into on Kupo's codeset.

Squirtles utilt is a bit OP in 12%. Try it out, just keep utilting. You should be able to follow DI cause he has a lot of mobility. You have to time your utilts too, you don't do it as fast as possible. In training mode I could do it 6 times I believe before it stopped being a legit combo. Against CPUs just watching how decay effected you could probably keep it up for 10 hits, or even more. The thing is, after all that, you can follow it up with pretty much any of his aerials. It's pretty crazy.

Kirby's utilt is kinda ******** as well, although not on the same league as Squirtles. I could do around 5 in a row being legit in training mode, definitely more could be done when you add in hit decay.

Falco can chain utilts to nairs very easily. You can repeat that chain around 3 times in training mode being legit. DI is a bigger factor here because Falco can't move as much inbetween uairs to keep it up; however, you can always jab to another uair. While jabbing isn't something that keeps the combo legit, it's a very, very powerful tool for keeping combos going when they otherwise would have died. I don't think this is too OP, considering is existing dthrow chains and other things.

Jiggs might actually be good now with this much stun. Honestly I haven't tried her with 10% so she might be good there, but in 12% she can chain her stuff together very well. It's very possible to bair people off the stage and straight into the blast zone, or at least bair them too far out to where recovery is impossible.

Sheik doesn't seem much better with her tilts than she already was, but then again I was never good with her to begin with. I'm sure her setups with tilts are a little bit more ********.

That's all the testing I've done so far. I'll probably try these out against my roomate later if he's up for it. I'll save the replays and record them afterwards with my digital camera and put them on youtube if they are siginificant.

 

[Almas]

Jigglypuff still isn't amazing with the stun. She can chain attacks together decently (and can Wall of Pain, too), but she has very few moves which lead into comboes. At low %s, Pound does it, and UAir lasts a little longer. USmash is a surprisingly good combo starter, but have fun hitting it (I guess boost smashing might help her out a little here).

She also loses out on DAir->Rest. With increased hitstun, the DAir makes them start bouncing off the floor like a crazy person at lower %s, making it much harder to be able to do it at a time where it'll kill them.

I still love her in teams and always will because of her great mobility off the stage, and the fact that rest becomes much more viable and harder to punish. Since we play with gravity mods, it's also easier to gimp people, and jiggs is great for that.

I'm working on trying to slowly notch the hitstun down with my group of players, but it's hard work. The problem lies in the fact that you need a fairly high hitstun (.52->.53) in order to make new, interesting combos, but they end up making the dull, stupid combos from brawl even more powerful. I wonder if stale move negation could be tweaked to deal with this, or maybe somehow modifying the hitstun formula more extensively.

 

[oliwonder]

cause its so long before u can stop ur momentum with a move and double jump. sorta like melee though lol, but its still a tad much, which is why i wanna try 10%

Thank you Chibo this is what I've been trying to say. But i believe you're also right Kupo about gravity because I have also tested with 1.1 gravity and 1.065 damage, and this is probably why I think 12.5% is too much. I'll test with normal gravity and see how I feel.

 

[kupo15]

Mookie,

It appears that what you are saying also is something that looks good on paper as well which is what Almas was getting at IMO. But I look forward to see your vids. Can you name specifically where in my vids that confirmed that 12% was too much in my code set?

Oli: Yea, try 12% with normal attack power and normal gravity and BAD
.

 

[MookieRah]

The problem lies in the fact that you need a fairly high hitstun (.52->.53) in order to make new, interesting combos, but they end up making the dull, stupid combos from brawl even more powerful.

That's why I advocate 10%, cause it doesn't open too many doors, but you have enough wiggle room to do some impressive stuff. 12% has some really silly combos. A lot of tilts now combo like Sheik's ftilts, and the possibility of combos that just wreck characters too hard is not out of the question.

It appears that what you are saying also is something that looks good on paper

I can assure you Squirtiles utilt will be good in practice. It's not hard and he has the mobility between utilts to make it last for a long, long time. I found this after only 3-4 minutes of trying to break your codeset too. I'm going to play my roommate tonight with it so I'll save the replay and then record it with my camera.

 

[kupo15]

Oh I know squirtle's utilt is an excellent combo move as well as his uair. But have you been basing this from CPUs up till now? It seems so but idk. I would like to see you do this in practice...i look forward to your vids..


Another thing I realized is that we are still new to hitstun and esp since we are changing the length of the stun time, I don't think we have the feel for when you exactly are out of hit stun. This means that we may be getting juggled not because of high hit stun, but because of ADing too early causing us to be not as effective as escaping juggles that should be escaped.

Some other tests I have done was try jumping instead and it seems like I could escape easier than and AD which is weird. I also has getting comboed by Zelda as ZZS and was convinced that was a true combo since i couldnt escape (usmash>uair i think?) but I mashed the down b and was able to escape every time and it showed that I did have some frames before the uair.

This is just a theory...

I wish training mode acted like real battles because training mode proves nothing. I would like to test out leaf's idea.

EDIT:

After watching those vids Kupo, I can safely say that is too much stun. That said, it looks like A LOT of fun.

Yea, it was fun because it was competitively fun with what felt like a balanced level of stun. That may go down slightly but it wasn't fun because it was too much.

Can you please point out exactly where in my Falcon video you came with the conclusion that 12% is too much for my code set? Seeing that I played that match, I think I can counter every point you bring up by saying what he could have done differently for that not to have worked..

 

[zxeon]

If you want to see when you can escape from hitstun play against some lvl9 Cpus they will show you where all the wholes in your combos are and maybe even make you a little bit depressed. Make sure you fight them if you're in training mode set them to lvl9 and put them on attack.

 

[kupo15]

If you want to see when you can escape from hitstun play against some lvl9 Cpus they will show you where all the wholes in your combos are and maybe even make you a little bit depressed. Make sure you fight them if you're in training mode set them to lvl9 and put them on attack.

I hope your not saying that if you can combo lvl 9s in training mode that you can perform that same combo on a human in regular brawl+ mode....