Hitstun/shield stun Thread

[kupo15]

Try 11.5% mookie?

 

[storm92]

I like how you're accepting and embracing the ALC and hitstun now Mookie, but why is that combo so bad? I mean sure, it was a good 37%, but I see that like Utilt combos you could pull off even in Melee. Fox or Falco's Utilts lead into other moves very well, and in some cases did a lot more damage than 37%.
Also, it does seem he could escape somewhere out of there.
IMO, 11.5% or 12% seems good.
I understand where you're coming from with conservatism with hitstun, but allow some combos to develop. Charizard needs it. =P

I agree though, it is silly.
But awesome at the same time.

 

[MookieRah]

The combo is ridiculous, not as in broke, but just ridiculous. I look forward to more of them too. Fun stuff.

 

[Wind Owl]

Still doesn't top this, IMO.

 

[kupo15]

The reason why I like 12% is because its a mix of melee and 64. I will try out 12% first, then 11.5% with my friends this weekend and see which is better.

Still doesn't top this, IMO.

Oh please lol

 

[MookieRah]

Still doesn't top this, IMO.

That ain't real.

@Kupo
I'll be trying out 11% for a bit. I'll probably try 11.5% later on. I'll try it with and without S-canceling, cause I'd like to see how much S-canceling affects things. Honestly though, I'm looking forward to M-canceling. The ballinest idea ever.

 

[Wind Owl]

That ain't real.

How dare you say that about the Crombo

 

[krlos F.]

11.5% is good I told u before! xD because is harder to combo than 12 and 12.5%

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Jiggs can legit combo uair to rest, always and forever. I have some sick combos for her to showcase sometime soon. :D!

 

[BrutalBrutal]

With hitstun being continuously lowered, I ask that you please try to have the hitstun as high as possible without being broken, as opposed to as low as possible without being useless, which is what you seem to be going for. Just because some characters (most of not top tier) get good/great combos out of it, doesn't mean it should be turned down. The tier list in Brawl+ may be different in than in Vanilla Brawl: preserving it in its current state is neither a priority nor a goal at all. Please stop shoving the hitstun as low as it can go and demonstrate something incontrovertibly broken at 12.5% before you decrease it anymore.

I can't play it to test it out, having a PAL version of Brawl, but I haven't seen anything game-breaking at 12.5%; if anyone could produce such evidence, I would withdraw my statements, but as it is I think hitstun shouldn't be lower than 12.5% at the very least.

 

[Wind Owl]

I agree completely.

 

[Makkun]

I agree completely.

Seconded.

Oh. Hi, everyone.

 

[CT Chia]

the problem with changing it is that ppl are making it to their opinion. theres no "official" set of codes. its like we need a Brawl+ back room lol. people disagree on certain things. im personally leaning towards a 10.5 or 10% hitstun (as i thought 11 was just a tad too much)

 

[kupo15]

With hitstun being continuously lowered, I ask that you please try to have the hitstun as high as possible without being broken, as opposed to as low as possible without being useless, which is what you seem to be going for. Just because some characters (most of not top tier) get good/great combos out of it, doesn't mean it should be turned down. The tier list in Brawl+ may be different in than in Vanilla Brawl: preserving it in its current state is neither a priority nor a goal at all. Please stop shoving the hitstun as low as it can go and demonstrate something incontrovertibly broken at 12.5% before you decrease it anymore.

I can't play it to test it out, having a PAL version of Brawl, but I haven't seen anything game-breaking at 12.5%; if anyone could produce such evidence, I would withdraw my statements, but as it is I think hitstun shouldn't be lower than 12.5% at the very least.

I completely agree in the game with Brawl's gravity..

 

[KishSquared]

The Ship of Fools is hosting a Brawl+ tournament on January 3rd for anyone that's in the MW:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206285

Right now we're leaning toward S-canceling and 5% hitstun. I know 5% is a bit low for most of you, but we're planning on hosting more and if it's deemed too little then it'll be increased for the next one. But honestly, the rules are up for debate and if popular demand is for higher hitstun then we can go that route.

Has anyone run Brawl+ tournaments yet? Any success stories or anything else learned at these events?

 

[Finns7]

I dont agree with 12 im in the 10 region. We all have different playstyles/characters so of course our opinions are going to be different. In time Im sure we can agree on something.

 

[kupo15]

The Ship of Fools is hosting a Brawl+ tournament on January 3rd for anyone that's in the MW:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206285

Right now we're leaning toward S-canceling and 5% hitstun. I know 5% is a bit low for most of you, but we're planning on hosting more and if it's deemed too little then it'll be increased for the next one. But honestly, the rules are up for debate and if popular demand is for higher hitstun then we can go that route.

Has anyone run Brawl+ tournaments yet? Any success stories or anything else learned at these events?

Well, Mookie has been swayed to go towards

Brawl Air dodge
Brawl gravity
Auto l cancel
hit stun 12% he thinks is too much which some of us disagree, but I would try 11.5% if I were you. Of course, this will be better with shield nerf codes which idk when they will come out. Probably not for at least a week :\

Several of us also think this code set works well also. I think it will be more successful if you keep it the way ppl are used to playing the game. If you use S cancel and MAD, then ppl will have to relearn brawl all over again with different strategies. With my code set, you are playing brawl with combos..thats it and the combos will be easier only because ppl are more used to how characters behave in regular brawl.

12% will be somewhat easy to combo if ppl are not used to DIing brawl attacks the right way so 11.5% would work if this is the case. If ppl know how to DI brawl attacks properly, then I'd go with 12%. But in any case, no lower than 11.5% IMO

I dont agree with 12 im in the 10 region. We all have different playstyles/characters so of course our opinions are going to be different. In time Im sure we can agree on something.

Do you use gravity mods?

 

[Finns7]

Not regularly, I didnt like how it felt at the time with my main (Links recovery >_<)

 

[kupo15]

Not regularly, I didnt like how it felt at the time with my main (Links recovery >_<)

Ok just checking because most of the ppl who disagree and like 10% have gravity mods on or s canceling. We really need a thread that are the rules of posting in brawl+ forums so ppl don't have any doubts like I had

 

[Finns7]

We need a character thread where we discuss how the diff hit stuns effect the chars. We will test out our mains aswell as any other char you have a firm understanding of.

 

[MookieRah]

Yeah, I think being organized with our posting would help things out a bit. In effect we are all beta testing.

 

[Wind Owl]

When people say "too much hitstun," what do they even mean? I can obviously understand if there's a 60 frame window for zero to death combos, but 12.5% is nowhere near that ridiculous. People keep saying it's too much, but don't give any basis for that opinion.

 

[zxeon]

We need a formal thread and result submition format for this kind of stuff.

 

[Wind Owl]

What do you mean?

 

[KishSquared]

Yeah, I think being organized with our posting would help things out a bit. In effect we are all beta testing.

And I want our tournament to be a good beta test for Brawl+. I'll bring up the idea of increasing hitstun to the rest of the Ship.

However, I think we're pretty set on MAD for the time being. We'll see how our tournament goes I guess, maybe we'll change our minds. I can see how BAD would work well with hitstun.

EDIT: Too much hitstun means that characters can easily 0-death or do 50-60% per combo. In playing for 2-3 hours, I saw plenty of those with 10% hitstun, and I can't imagine what it would be like at 10%+. But again, we should let tournament results determine the need for more/less hitstun. Until you have pro players at a high level playing each other, it's all theory.

So encourage people to come to our tournament so we can get some good beta testing!

Something else - we saw MK to be almost broken with 10% hitstun. What do others believe about that?

 

[zxeon]

And I want our tournament to be a good beta test for Brawl+. I'll bring up the idea of increasing hitstun to the rest of the Ship.

However, I think we're pretty set on MAD for the time being. We'll see how our tournament goes I guess, maybe we'll change our minds. I can see how BAD would work well with hitstun.

EDIT: Too much hitstun means that characters can easily 0-death or do 50-60% per combo. In playing for 2-3 hours, I saw plenty of those with 10% hitstun, and I can't imagine what it would be like at 10%+. But again, we should let tournament results determine the need for more/less hitstun. Until you have pro players at a high level playing each other, it's all theory.

So encourage people to come to our tournament so we can get some good beta testing!

Something else - we saw MK to be almost broken with 10% hitstun. What do others believe about that?

If you are getting comboed at 10% hitstun you might want to rethink how you are DIing away from attacks. With good DI all combos are escapable at 10%. Metaknight is just an offensively overpowered character IMO but he himself can still be comboed.

 

[Team Giza]

I wouldn't be too sure of that zxeon. Some weak attacks actually are more comboable at 10% than at higher %ages. It is something that is most easily identified by Dedede's chainthrow. At certain amount of stun some attacks knock you back in a way that are impossible to DI and set up very easily for the next strike. As you raise hitstun these actually tend to disappear and give more DI potential to the one being attacked and thus making combos less set in stone. It is important to watch out for this while testing levels of hitstun.

It is gonna be hard to come up with a solid hitstun standard until we, at the very least, have the shieldstun and possibly the ledge codes.

 

[KishSquared]

Trust me, we know how to DI ^_^ We've been playing Smash competitively since 2003. I was carried off a walk-off edge on Delphino at 0% with Captain Falcon up-aerials, and there was nothing I could do. Granted, DDD can CG most people this way anyway, so it's not game-breaking, but it illustrates the point.

There were extended combos in Melee, and there were even a couple of 0-deaths, but they were RARE and usually involved a heavy mindgame or a lack of DI. If 10% hitstun results in seeing a lot of o-death combos, that's going to be a problem in my mind.

And MK f-airs are broken with hitstun. They can be easily chained with allows him to carry people off the edge. He can then have his way with people off the stage since they can't air-dodge through him. Honestly, using BAD might fix it a bit, but MK gets a strong boost from hitstun regardless. And MK does not need a boost, lol.

 

[MookieRah]

It is gonna be hard to come up with a solid hitstun standard until we, at the very least, have the shieldstun and possibly the ledge codes.

I don't see how that is true, because of what KishSquared already said. Ledge codes and shield stun won't add to combos, so we could definitely pinpoint a good amount of stun without them. That said, we'd probably have the codes around before we find the proper amount of stun.

Also, something I wanted to point out, S-canceling doesn't really help combos out as much as one would think. Most attacks that need to be S-canceled are typically finishers or swat moves. The little bit of a speed up one gets on combo-able moves is not enough to warrant more hitstun if you weren't using S-canceling in most cases.

@Kishes
Post some vids of your Brawl+ matches. I'm curious to see some of Squared's Charizard in action, as well as the rest of SHIP blasting dudes.

 

[CT Chia]

I didn't read every post here but judging from Kish's last post, lol at new Brawl players thinking Kish doesn't know how to DI haha.

Has anyone run Brawl+ tournaments yet? Any success stories or anything else learned at these events?

Yes, I ran a Brawl+ side event at one of my (melee lol) biweeklies. Brawl players were there though lol. This wasn't that recent however so we didn't have things like the new hitstun so we used:
MAD
No Tripping
L Canceling
1.125x Gravity

Out of the 12 (i think) entrants, reactions we're real split. Half of them liked it and saw potential for it (as a side event), and the other half hated it, though their reasons for hating it were completely empty and were pretty much because "it was different" and they weren't used to it (didn't do as well as they had hoped). Out of the 12, 3 players used MK who happened to be the top 3 placers there. MK was completely broken in our code set as it was practically impossible to escape tornado mainly because of the gravity you couldn't DI up out of it. I'd imagine it's even worse with hitstun. The gravity really helps with everything else though, so we're keeping that and banning MK in Brawl+.

There were some videos from the event also:
Vex v Velocity
Scar v Wind Owl
Scar v Rogue Pit
ChiboSempai v Bnzaaa 01
ChiboSempai v Bnzaaa 02

^My personal favorites are Scar v Wind Owl and Me v Bnzaaa 02

Feel free to ask any other ques about the tourney

---

As for people questioning what makes us think hitstun may be too high?

When I tested with 11% I noticed...
-Sometimes I was completely useless and couldn't avoid extremely cheap (I hate using that word) combos. aka: The stun was too long at some percents. It reminded me of 64, which isn't bad I guess, but yea... too much stun lol.
-The big thing: Characters died far too early. Even with DI, you are stunned for SO long from a strong attack that characters now die so much earlier. For instance, say your hit on the left side and the path shows your trajectory:

----------------------_____x______---------Trajectory
------------------__/ --------------\__---------/
--Where you were/---------------------\
Opponent--|----/-----------------------\
---\/ -----|----/-------------------------\
--__ -----\/--/----------------------------\
--| |---__--/------------------------------\
--| |---| |---------------------------------\
____________-------------------------------|
-------------|--------------------------------\
------------/----------------------------------X
__________/



(Best job I can do with text lol) (WTF it removed all the spaces in the post...) edit: i replaced spaces with dashes, so disregard them

Normally in Brawl you would be able to start recovering at the top of your travel in trajectory (x) where you can momentum cancel with an aerial, airdodge, double jump soon after, anything. With the hitstun I did, I couldn't do anything until MUCH later in the trajectory, sometimes even below the x-axis (X) I was originally hit at. While some characters aren't effected as much from this with certain recoveries like ROB, Pit, (even Wario perhaps using the bike?), it makes it pretty much impossible for characters like Mario or Marth (haven't tried Marth) to recovery from that point. You'll know from Melee that the point at which you can recover was never that extreme.

 

[Team Giza]

I don't see how that is true, because of what KishSquared already said. Ledge codes and shield stun won't add to combos, so we could definitely pinpoint a good amount of stun without them. That said, we'd probably have the codes around before we find the proper amount of stun.

It still matters because of the efficiency of combo starting moves. Its about risk and rewards. Characters right now might have a harder time starting combos then they will when shieldstun comes out. This does not usually apply to raising hitstun most of the time but to lowering it. I have not seen stuff in 12% yet that really make me feel like it needs to be any lower but if Kish can get some videos or go into more detail about all this stuff at 10% then I may be convinced earlier. I feel that as soon as shieldstun comes out I will want hitstun to be lowered a bit because of the efficiency of connecting combo starters. I wouldn't mind lowering it before this if I saw better evidence.

Ledges will be important for the reason that Chibo gave above about the angle of recoveries after common combos.

 

[MookieRah]

I turned things back to 10% and ran the setup I had before yesterdays play, and I have to say that most of the stuff that I was doing yesterday I can do at 10%. The difference is that it's not guaranteed anymore. There are a lot of setups that don't work anymore, but most of the efficient things I was doing still works.

Charizard still has his utilt -> upsmashes -> aerial stuff. He still has his AAA -> dashing usmash -> whatever setups. Also keep in mind that Charizard isn't entirely a combo king and you can see that this is pretty nice. These combos are all very reliable, and the more I play the more setups I discover and how to better exploit the setups. I think 10% is enough stun to nurture some incredibly awesome combos, and wouldn't open up many 0 to deaths.

I think the most powerful things that I have found with 10% stun would be some Falcon nair -> dair spike combos. It's pretty sick. Then again, Ken combos existed in melee and people learned to defend against it. Just be careful when you are near the ledge against Falcon, also, be careful when there are any walk off ledges too, as KishSquared said he can take your *** across with ease.

For Brawl+ tournaments we should use 4 stock. It's way faster :-P.

 

[Dan_X]

Okay, so I main a few characters, one of which is ICs. As of the addition of hitstun I've yet to play them-- until today. I realize that the hitstun removes the chaingrabs because they can be DIed out of but is this the case for the IC chaingrabs? For those of you who execute the chaingrabs in game, have you noticed any sort of difference? I only played for like 20mins as them before my friend had to leave. I was determined to pull off better chaingrabs so all I did was mindlessly grab as a form of testing-- however I didn't pull off anything spectacular in the time my friend was over. This could very well be because I'm rusty with the ICs, and generally when you're rusty with the ICs CGs it shows... When my friend left I played a bot in training and after a bit of practice I was doing much better CGing.

So has the hitstun nullified the ICs chaingrabs??? If so, that's a major fail for hitstun, and is something that makes me hate it.

Why is it that the addition of hitstun removes DDD / Falco's chaingrabs? And of course solo Popo's chaingrab. I think this is pretty lame, especially because I also main Falco.

 

[Revven]

Why is it that the addition of hitstun removes DDD / Falco's chaingrabs? And of course solo Popo's chaingrab. I think this is pretty lame, especially because I also main Falco.

Wait... it affects DDD's CG too? I thought it only affected Falco's so far (from what I have heard).

Anyway, think of it this way Orca. In exchange for those exclusive CGs, those characters NOW have viable combo ability unlike before. You're also IMPROVING characters like Falcon in exchange for lame and easy CGs that take no skill to do whatsoever (except ICs). IMO, Falco not being able to CG = good. If this is ALSO true for DDD's, that would be AMAZING. (But, I kind of doubt it due to its strange properties).

Lame CGs doesn't make a good fighting game, combos do, combos make it fun. CGs don't, at least, CGs that can't be gotten out of (i.e DDD's) until either a certain percentage or until the CGer feels like it. If I remember right, one of the main ideas behind Brawl+ was to at least remove DDD's and Falco's CGs, be it through hitstun or just making weak hits DIable (or able to DI out of them easier to escape said CGs).

 

[Dan_X]

Wait... it affects DDD's CG too? I thought it only affected Falco's so far (from what I have heard).

Anyway, think of it this way Orca. In exchange for those exclusive CGs, those characters NOW have viable combo ability unlike before. You're also IMPROVING characters like Falcon in exchange for lame and easy CGs that take no skill to do whatsoever (except ICs). IMO, Falco not being able to CG = good. If this is ALSO true for DDD's, that would be AMAZING. (But, I kind of doubt it due to its strange properties).

Lame CGs doesn't make a good fighting game, combos do, combos make it fun. CGs don't, at least, CGs that can't be gotten out of (i.e DDD's) until either a certain percentage or until the CGer feels like it. If I remember right, one of the main ideas behind Brawl+ was to at least remove DDD's and Falco's CGs, be it through hitstun or just making weak hits DIable (or able to DI out of them easier to escape said CGs).

Initially I was going to jump on the offensive because I thought for a moment that you were referring to the ICs CGs as "easy-- and take no skill whatsoever." Though, you then excluded them negating any reason for me to rebuke.

I admit that DDD's and Falco's chaingrabs are unnecessary, but I still like them. I'm able to live with the fact that Falco can't CG as effectively anymore because now he can combo instead. I suppose that's better. I've been able to deal with that loss. Also, if the enemy DIs incorrectly one can still regrab multiple times... so the CG isn't completely gone, it's just gone in a perfect world.

As for DDD, though I haven't tested him I'm pretty sure his grab is gone. The enemy can DI away and into the ground, which is why Falco can't regrab, I'd image this would make it impossible for DDD to CG consistently as well.

As for the ICs, if their chaingrabs are no longer as viable that's seriously terrible. They don't need hitstun for comboing (though it wouldn't hurt)-- their grab game is the entirety of what they need for comboing. If this has been nerfed that's pretty **** arrgirvating to me, to the point where I'd consider no playing with hitstun.

Again, for all I know the IC's CGs aren't effected by the hitstun like DDD/Falco's. I hope this is the case because--- i haven't had enough time to practice them against my friend. In addition, the character he played as wasn't his normal one so that could be another reason my CGing was off.. the timing was different.

 

[Revven]

As for DDD, though I haven't tested him I'm pretty sure his grab is gone. The enemy can DI away and into the ground, which is why Falco can't regrab, I'd image this would make it impossible for DDD to CG consistently as well.

This would be uber sexy and make me uber happy if this is true. I'm literally tired of DDD's CG when people can do it consistently in normal Brawl. Just bothers the crap out of me and sucks all the fun out of the match once that grab happens.

 

[Alopex]

So, wait... this hitstun code removes Falco's chaingrab and possibly Dedede's, but it gives Capt. Falcon a chaingrab? If so, does Capt. Falcon's hitstun CG work only with 12% or higher hitstun, or at 10% as well?

What's the status on the minor CG's like Pikachu's?
Are Kirby's early % grab combos now escapable?
If the hitstun codes adds more DI possibilities to throws, then those would be affected too, no?

 

[MookieRah]

Oh yeah, at 12% hit stun Falcon can seemingly chaingrab most characters with downthrow. I forgot to mention that before. He could literally chain characters across the stage and nair -> dair. Ironic, considering that Falco used to pull that kind stuff off in normal brawl.

 

[Alopex]

I'm going to assume you already did all the testing for DI and whatnot to escape the CG at 12% hitstun.

So it doesn't work at 10% hitstun? What about at 11 or 11.5? Basically, is 12% the threshold for the Captain's CG?

 

[Finns7]

Um NO, You guys I play with no gravity plus 10% hitstun and falcos cgs are if you di correctly even at early percents, and D3s are completly gone (unless he tech chases). As A link main I thought CG on normal brawl were gay and is prob the only reason why im into brawl+, I respect the ic's mainly because I think that cg is what makes them IC's (Link=projectiles, IC =teamwork=**** grab combos)

Now the CG's take skill, and from what Ive experienced with 10%, Captain falcons cg can be died out of.

I could DI out of kirbys fthrow upair cg on normal brawl, idk on this il test it out.

I havent read in a while so let me put my 2 cents in about the tournies...

I do see a prob with meta because once you are off the edge your most likely down a stock mainly because of the air dodge, but the one air dodge is needed because it adds to mindgames and helps mobility and this is a must against meta with slow chars.

I also had the same problems, I found that I was dying to early and I felt helpless in the air. After practicing and learning the histun I was using I learned when to get out of combos and I also was surviving longer, with higher percents...Idk I really like 10 right now Id even go a little lower to be safe but anything higher is just 2 extreme to me because honestly not to take anything away from you 12+ supporters but I dont think you guys are PPPPPPRO not to say ur not good but there may be exploits your not utilizing.

Honestly though we just need to have a tourney and test it out (irl tourneys).