Hitstun/shield stun Thread

[MasterRaichu]

What's interesting is that a lot of characters retain their old combos from melee and even some combos that were in n64.. like jiggly, mario and fox. kind of makes you wonder how brawl was designed to be initially, that and the fact that L-canceling was in the game prior to its release (reportedly at the american beta tests of the game). brawl was probably supposed to have all of this stuff in the first place but strapped of it at the last minute.

I think that since Nintendo's overall goal is to make all games playable to the casual gamer, Sakurai's team probably thought that techniques like L-canceling made the game more difficult (and in our case, competitive), so they found ways to get rid around the code that was already in place to make the game easier. Whether or not it was meant to be in Brawl is a tough question because has it or has it not been determined that Brawl's original code was Melee's? or was it built from scratch? It would be interesting if they built the game from the ground up with all of that stuff implemented, only to take it all out right before release in favor of making it "soccer mom friendly".

But yeah, combos definitely feel like Melee's. Sometimes I just wish I still had Doc so I could do some nasty D-tilts into B-airs off the ledge... I sooooo miss it.

 

[Adapt]

can someone give me a run down on what all this does to ZSS? I'm quite curious.
I'm mainly interested in the effect of hitstun. I assume MAD would make her a lot better

Is d-throw>uair/fair/nair viable? (with the correct prediction of DI)
Can uair be chained more than twice?
Can nair be chained?
Does utilt>usmash/up-B work?
Is fair easier or harder to connect both hits?
Does the stun time increase the effect of d-smash chains? (on people like Ganon, CF, Sheik, Falco)

with L canceling, how vulnerable is dair?

Thanks, I don't have TP but I may borrow it soon so I want to know how this all effects my main.

 

[zxeon]

can someone give me a run down on what all this does to ZSS? I'm quite curious.
I'm mainly interested in the effect of hitstun. I assume MAD would make her a lot better

Is d-throw>uair/fair/nair viable? (with the correct prediction of DI)
Can uair be chained more than twice?
Can nair be chained?
Does utilt>usmash/up-B work?
Is fair easier or harder to connect both hits?
Does the stun time increase the effect of d-smash chains? (on people like Ganon, CF, Sheik, Falco)

with L canceling, how vulnerable is dair?

Thanks, I don't have TP but I may borrow it soon so I want to know how this all effects my main.

ZSS is a combo goddess.

You can't chain Nairs but she can pretty much combo into anything from her down throw.

Connecting with both hits of the Fair is about the same since the first hit has almost no power behind it.

All the combos you mentioned are possible.

The added hitstun doesn't affect the paralyzer.

When L-canceled wher Dair is a good enough to combo with at middle percentages.
Wavedashing with MAD lets her WD into a Dtilt to pop people into the air.(very awesome)

All this is possible at 10% hitstun and higher.(it's a safe bet)

 

[matt4300]

honestly from what i have played shes kinda really really good with hitstun one of the best so far @_@. I personally dont main or play Zamus but i have fought her a bunch of times with somone who does , and the **** Dsmash is a ***** for most of the cast.

EDIT: thanks Zxeon now i feel like a noob >_>'

 

[kupo15]

also, I think there isn't too much room left for more codes, since some form of the l-cncel wil probably be used and of course no trip (not a long code, but it's chipping away those few lines avalible)

atm, I only use up 70 lines out of the 256 lines. I have a lot left...

 

[matt4300]

Hmmm i just looked at how many i have used and im pretty suprised. Im only useing 72 and thats with 3 pointless extra codes... i thought we were running out of space for some odd reason. and yeh interm of zeal thats what i was talking about for snake

 

[MookieRah]

I'm using more, just cause I'm working on my old setup. It seems like trying to break your 12% woke my *** up to combos that just work even in 10%. Charizard is a combo beast. I'll have some vids up later. I'm thinking about making a combo vid showing off a bunch of neat stuff in the near future as well.

oh btw, at high percents, although Samus can combo from her zair to her charged shot, at lower percents, people can tech the stun from the zair. it's much safer to do it if they're in the air

Well if they tech it consistently you can always delay the shot a bit and hit them when they come out of it.

With all these changes I'm able to pull off melee mind game stuff that was absent from Brawl before. I'm tippering people out of tech rolls, tumbles, techs with Marth. I'm pursuing rolls with a running Charizard grab. With Mario I toss fireballs and plant an utilt right when it hits their shields. I'm gimping people like CRAZY. It's like a long dormant switch has been flipped back on. It's been a long time since I've had this much fun with Smash anything.

 

[kupo15]

So do you actually like the teching in brawl? I was thinking about asking for melee teching due to these insta-tech moves like the Zairs.. but i think i still want it. I guess we could put teching as one of the last things now.

I can't wait to see your vid and also in the future when Zard can edge guard ppl with his Fair (amongst other things) if they miss a sweet spot.

 

[Yeroc]

I'm recording some matches against CPUs. I know that's not the best indicator of what's possible in some respects, but ZSS is freakin' fun to play. I'll make a mini combo vid tomorrow afternoon.

 

[peachfvl]

tomorrow i´ll be playing with some friends brawl+ and maybe we will have a way to record our matches but if we can´t maybe we could send them to someone here to record them, i dunno just maybe.
i think we will be playing with auto l-cancel, no tripping, hitstun 10%, normal gravity and probably with PT infinite stamina and no pokemon swap(if these last 2 don´t corrupt anything)

can someone get me the more than 3 min replays cause i cant find it?

 

[MookieRah]

I'm uploading some vids. I've got six matches with my Zard and two matches with my CF. I would have 3 with my CF, and the one that is missing is the best one. I was playing against a friend who didn't want to have a video up of him getting two stocked, instead in the video that was saved he barely beats me -_-. Anyways, they are pretty ballin. The CF matches played a hell of a lot like Melee.

My internet connection is crap though, and I'm uploading almost 800 megabytes worth of stuff. It will take a while -_-.

 

[Finns7]

I happy with 10% guys I played with friends today for a long time and I have so much stuff on my wii. I lost my sd card so I cant record, so if anyone wants to see youd have to give me your wii number and have on the same exact Brawl+ hacks as me which are tripless, 10, no gravity modifyer, MAD, ALC.

ZZS can ****, her juggling is 2nd to none if you dont get out of here setup you can be in for a long combo.

Do you guys wanna see a video of Mario vs Fox friendlies. Its kinda when we first started but the combos in some parts are so....so...lets just say I wished normal brawl was created like this idk.

I dont think shieks ftilt is that important right now, there are more important things to fix,

Link can combo well and his zair/rang sets up finishing locks, Ganon is complete **** now seriously. Marth can combo well (ken aswell), GaW is broken....sike but he is reallly gooood. I got so many videos I just dont have a way of uploadin them right now.

 

[Revven]

and probably with PT infinite stamina and no pokemon swap(if these last 2 don´t corrupt anything)

Don't worry, those are the PT codes that don't cause any corruption so you're safe.

 

[Dan_X]

atm, I only use up 70 lines out of the 256 lines. I have a lot left...

How have you only used up 70 lines? I've used up 180 ish... already granted I use MAD which is 87lines.

hmm.

I have an idea... have the coders write a 256 line code that drops the limitations on code lines.

 

[peachfvl]

Don't worry, those are the PT codes that don't cause any corruption so you're safe.

ok

so 10%hitstun is to much?

can somebody plz get me the longer than 3 min replays code? i need it to save my matches

 

[leafgreen386]

ok

so 10%hitstun is to much?

can somebody plz get me the longer than 3 min replays code? i need it to save my matches

Uh... he never said that. He said that the infinite stamina and no switch on death PT codes don't cause corruption of the save file. Also, I think most people agree that +.10 (10%) should be our minimum on hitstun right now >_>

Here's the greater than 3 minute replay code:
040E5DE8 60000000
04953184 60000000
04953224 60000000

 

[MookieRah]

Here you go.

Infinite Replay code:
040E5DE8 60000000
04953184 60000000
04953224 60000000

DARN, someone beat me to it!

Also, I think most people agree that +.10 (10%) should be our minimum on hitstun right now >_>

I think 10% should be the max. I say that cause the combos you can pull off with it are amazing, period. Anything above that is just silly to be honest. I think that 10% should be the actual value for Brawl+, unless something incredibly broken is discovered that isn't Meta.

 

[Finns7]

The thing I like though is that if you know your char very well you can set meta up with combos because he is not that floaty, 1 or 2 combos and a good powerful smash and he is gone (depends on the char).

 

[kupo15]

I think 10% should be the max. I say that cause the combos you can pull off with it are amazing, period. Anything above that is just silly to be honest. I think that 10% should be the actual value for Brawl+, unless something incredibly broken is discovered that isn't Meta.

Huh? i thought you said that 11% would be the minimum for you? We said that some combos at 10% are not possible at 12% since you can DI them better like CF CG. I thought you didn't like this yet you are going to have it anyway? You also said you are more conservative than most with stun so shouldn't this % be a little higher? I agree that I don't like easy combos and ridiculous stun, but I have yet to see that be a problem in 12% and quite frankly, comboing is not really where it should be with anything lower than 10% unless you can prove me otherwise (and i don't mean sandbagging which I know you won't do)

If some setups prove to easy like you said, then I suggested 11.5% which actually I find is a big change from 12%.

You said that 12% wasn't broken so whats the problem? I am confused

 

[matt4300]

speaking of pokemon trainer codes that dont f*ck up brawl :d i just PMed kupo 15 for them a day or so ago, and he dident know them.Soo for those of you that have them and are reletivly sure they dont skrew up your brawl can i please have them.

To stay on topic: I think 9.5 should be min and 12.5 should be max from what i have played. I like 12.5 personally but really wouldent mind 11.5 or 11. until someone finds a 0 to death combo or a zero to high% combo (like 80%) with any char besides metaknight i really dont want to take away some chars who dont have combos at 10% like ness just becuase some chars have really good combos like zamus. that would just be unfair to some of the cast and falcon, zzs and toon link would still **** at 10. Give the less combo heavy chars a chance to fight back becuase ness does have good combos at 12.5%

 

[Finns7]

You can set things up with 10%. At 10% Falcons cg is not a cg, and it takes more skill mindgames imo to set up combos. When I play at 12 it makes the game seem too set ex: Ok fox dash attack plus utilt.....3 seconds later the opponent has 68 percent (depends on char). Idk I could combo with fox well in normal brawl so maybe its just easier for me. But it just seems like 2 much to me kupo you wanna play tonight man im 2 bored.

Ness has combos he can pull of And Meta is not as broken to me mainly because you now have viable combos you can pull off on him instead of it being Meta only having combos (He still is beaaaaaaaaaaast though).

 

[Revven]

speaking of pokemon trainer codes that dont f*ck up brawl :d i just PMed kupo 15 for them a day or so ago, and he dident know them.Soo for those of you that have them and are reletivly sure they dont skrew up your brawl can i please have them.

Please please PLEASE, people keep these two codes somewhere so they can just be referenced with a link instead of having to make me or someone else copypasta them again. This is the fourth time I've had to do this and it's really tiresome. Let's keep it simple and stick it in the OP of one of the Brawl+ threads...

P.Trainer Infinite Stamina: [Phantom Wings]
48000000 80000000
80000000 80623320
80000001 00000000
60000006 00000000
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
36000000 00000032
92210002 00000000
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000008
20001810 0000001D
14017FB0 4F000000
20001811 0000001E
14016300 4F000000
20001811 0000001F
14011124 4F000000
E2000001 00000000
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000

P.Trainer No Swap: (11 Lines) [Y.S. & Phantom Wings]
C2816AF4 0000000A
3E408062 3A523320
3A60FFFF 3E730001
7E732038 1E730244
7E529A14 80120000
2C00001D 41800024
2C000022 4181001C
2C170115 41820014
38A5FFFF 2C050000
40800008 38A00002
7C0802A6 00000000

 

[kupo15]

You can set things up with 10%. At 10% Falcons cg is not a cg, and it takes more skill mindgames imo to set up combos. When I play at 12 it makes the game seem too set ex: Ok fox dash attack plus utilt.....3 seconds later the opponent has 68 percent (depends on char). Idk I could combo with fox well in normal brawl so maybe its just easier for me. But it just seems like 2 much to me kupo you wanna play tonight man im 2 bored.

Ness has combos he can pull of And Meta is not as broken to me mainly because you now have viable combos you can pull off on him instead of it being Meta only having combos (He still is beaaaaaaaaaaast though).

I think 12.5 is too much. Why don't you try 11.5? I would like to play wifi but there are two problems:
1. I don't have wifi in my dorm
2. Both l canceling codes desync

Please please PLEASE, people keep these two codes somewhere so they can just be referenced with a link instead of having to make me or someone else copypasta them again. This is the fourth time I've had to do this and it's really tiresome. Let's keep it simple and stick it in the OP of one of the Brawl+ threads...

Thanks! Ill add it to the Code agenda...finally! XD

 

[BrutalBrutal]

Like I've said, could you please show us something truly broken at 12%? Because so far, nothing of the sort has been found. You are lowering the hitstun to a pointlessly low level without giving evidence that a higher level would be problematic. I would really like to see something game-breaking at 12% before even considering lowering it further.

 

[MookieRah]

Huh? i thought you said that 11% would be the minimum for you?

Well, I was going to try that out, but I switched it back to 10% on intuition and discovered I could do everything I was doing at 12%, for the most part. The videos that I'm uploading now are full of nifty combos, the game is not lacking at all in that department.

We said that some combos at 10% are not possible at 12% since you can DI them better like CF CG.

The CF chaingrab works pretty much the same at 10% as it does at 12% actually. I didn't notice much of a difference to be honest. The DI works along the same lines, DI down and away to tech to get out of it, DI up to avoid it but that sets up for combos, etc.

You also said you are more conservative than most with stun so shouldn't this % be a little higher?

Well, the Kishes reiterated stuff I was worried about before. That plus the fact that combos ooze out of 10% with ease, to me, seems like 10% is a good place to stop.

I agree that I don't like easy combos and ridiculous stun, but I have yet to see that be a problem in 12% and quite frankly

Well, there might not be too many problems at 12%, but at the same time it's definitely not needed for a competitive level experience. At 10% and the setup I'm running, it FEELS like Melee. I was pulling off Melee stuff, I was mindgaming like I did in Melee. Like I pointed out, a switch was turned on, and I started playing like I used to back in Melee times.

You said that 12% wasn't broken so whats the problem? I am confused

There isn't anything wrong with your code set, at least not that I was able to find. Keep in mind, this is all subjective. I'm no righter than you are, cause I wasn't able to break your code set. Your set is fun as hell too, but I like this one a little bit more is all.

One last thing, my friend Auri, the guy that you'll see in most of my videos, he said that the game felt off at 12%. The stun was so much that it didn't feel like the same game, and he said the characters played differently. He prefers it on the current setup I have, which oddly enough includes MAD and S-canceling. He played a lot of Melee though, and he is actually the best casual player I've ever played against. Again, this is just an opinion from one player, but he was someone that didn't play any Brawl+ till the other day when I used your code set.

 

[kupo15]

lol wow. You just flip flopped from S cancel and MAD, to no MAD and S cancel and back again...whats wrong with My set up with 10% though? Why the urge to go back to MAD and s canceling which you said you didn't like anymore?

And the way I see it, I think that comboing in brawl should be a combination of 64, melee, and brawl combos because I think it has that potential. When will your vids be up?

 

[MookieRah]

lol wow. You just flip flopped from S cancel and MAD, to no MAD and S cancel and back again...whats wrong with My set up with 10% though?

It would be fine, a bit more limiting on some characters. Not to much different for Zard, other than I wouldn't use as many nairs. Combos wouldn't be effected much. My falcon would do just as well in your setup with 10%. Honestly MAD doesn't make much of a difference for combos, unless maybe in a few matchups.

Also, if you get hit after you used an airdodge under MAD you get your air dodge back! Just something I noticed.

The first of 8 vids finished (having lots of trouble with them, had to restart the first one twice).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNwx_WoPHp0

This is a silly match, Auri and I both have some semi-******** suicides. Also, fear not, better Zard combos are coming, this was my first match versus his CF. Towards the end I was consistently 3 stocking and landing some ******** juggles and gimps. Also, platforms makes Zard happy :-P, and there are none on FD :-(.

I won't be up for much longer, but the videos are uploading on a queue. I'll post them all tomorrow. The 2nd one might be done before I go to bed, if it is I will post it.

 

[kupo15]

Ok, I just tested 10% out (with a CPU sry) and I think the stun is too little. Here is my thinking. Since I feel that 10% is perfect or near perfect with the gravity mods, how can it be the right amount without it? I couldn't even do my YES combos, to a CPU! I still think 11.5% at the min.

I think a lower stun time (not by much) would be preferred by me when the ledges are fixed. But we will see

 

[matt4300]

err uhh sorry to say that crapton falcon and zard vid kinda almost looked like regular brawling. 10 is just to little. though i could see how charizard can get really gay real fast with those dashing Usmashes

 

[Finns7]

You guys Maybe its diff because of our playstyles on nonrmal brawl I was good at stringing things together, so now even at 10 its really easy and smooth. I just feel 10 is the fairest setting right now. You can get caught in stuff if you dont DI, but its not as automatic.

That match was not the best indicator of 10's possibilities look at mine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg51nKrkx5o&feature=channel 1:02-1:12 a ten second 0 to 102 and kill not a PURE combo but it shows the stun in some segments. At 12 with L canceling or any other form of canceling I can only imagine unbalance. Sure its fun and you dont see anything cheap now but down the line when someone who is a little more pro finds out how to use some cheap overused combo with x character (x=prob meta).

 

[Wind Owl]

I couldn't even do my YES combos, to a CPU!

If you can't do YES combos, there's no point in having Brawl+.

And yes, I'm being completely serious.

 

[kupo15]

You can get caught in stuff if you dont DI, but its not as automatic.
.

Ppl will always DI and correctly unless you mind game them like switching a Uthrow with a Dthrow for Falcon. Proper DI shouldn't allow you to escape combos, they are suppose to make comboing harder. If you could escape combos with DI like what your inferring with 10%, melee would be a very boring game....

I know you said they that was a super friendly, but it really didn't show me anything tbh...

If you can't do YES combos, there's no point in having Brawl+.

And yes, I'm being completely serious.

QFT

 

[Team Giza]

That match was not the best indicator of 10's possibilities look at mine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg51nKrkx5o&feature=channel 1:02-1:12 a ten second 0 to 102 and kill not a PURE combo but it shows the stun in some segments. At 12 with L canceling or any other form of canceling I can only imagine unbalance. Sure its fun and you dont see anything cheap now but down the line when someone who is a little more pro finds out how to use some cheap overused combo with x character

But a lot of characters have combos are more interesting and diverse ways of entering them at 12%. 10% still has a lot of these combos for some characters but it seems to leave a lot of others characters worse off then them (see Jigglypuff). I don't really like how you show a video in 10% and then just assume that 12% is going to be way worse.

 

[Finns7]

Maybe the reason we are disagreeing is because Im using Mad and your not. You still can get caugth in **** combos if you DI though I should of explained it more. It depends on the char your using. Some chars are not built around combos as much as others and with 12 ganon can do very broken things (depending on canceling)

I dont want the game to feel like mugen.

We are not getting no where by doing this....Some feel 12 is perfect while some feel its too high who is right, no one its all opinion we just gonna have to make a decision in time. when I find my SD ill upload some vids.


I have vids of 12 I just couldnt upload them becuase I lost my SD that goes in my camera. Guys to me it is to to to easy to combo with 12 none of your videos showed how gay it could really truly get. Btw for those who use 12 what chars are you using and are you using MAD?

 

[plasmatorture]

If you can't do YES combos, there's no point in having Brawl+.

And yes, I'm being completely serious.

Nah, I don't even know what a YES combo is and it's easy to see that Brawl+ is way more fun and balanced (or at least differently balanced) than vanilla Brawl.
The comboes me and my friends pull off aren't going to be as impressive, sure, but they still improve the gameplay.

 

[kupo15]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg51nKrkx5o&feature=channel
The last two stocks are YES! combos

I am pretty sure that 12% is the highest one should go (at least in my code set) and 11% is the minimum IMO. Maybe over time 12% will feel too easy and I'll move down to 11.5%. And maybe when more codes are out, that might move me to 11.5% or 11%. But at least for the moment with my codeset. Im pretty confident that 11%-12% is a good range..

 

[matt4300]

i was going to say the same things as kupo and team giza. but ill just say that: that was kirby and BOWSER on final destination >_> what did you think was gonna happen and that dude seemed to blow with bowser he also missed techs a bit. I also have already said what team giza said in a previous post. that is if we lower the hitstun so some chars that are good arent as good then that also make the chars that are mediocre but still have combos become horrible. wich makes it feel like your a reg brawl char and your fighting a brawl+ god/godess

 

[plasmatorture]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg51nKrkx5o&feature=channel
The last two stocks are YES! combos

Did you mean to link to your earlier video? UAir (+ UAir etc.) to Up+B? Or is it forward throw into UAir that is featured heavily in the video you linked and also works well for Falcon?

I'm assuming the former here, as it involves an enthusiastic YES! from the beloved character...

and in which yes, I can almost pull it off consistently.

 

[Finns7]

#1 it was a super friendly, the guy never played bowser with that code set on and you know when you first start how the timing for teching is diff...and no your wrong all chars still have combos at 10% Fox has 60 combos if you dont tech forget DIng it can be useless in certain situations. I think in brawl+ it should be challenging to put up numbers like that (60-50) and with 12 it seems like any ordinary joe can do that with only 5mins of practice.

10% is no where close to normal brawl with any char. Now you have to understand this all based off how I play and my experience i will try out 11 but 12 meh to me.

Edit: im divoting some time with 12 all I have is the computer right now unless someone wants to play me.

 

[kupo15]

I have vids of 12 I just couldnt upload them becuase I lost my SD that goes in my camera. Guys to me it is to to to easy to combo with 12 none of your videos showed how gay it could really truly get. Btw for those who use 12 what chars are you using and are you using MAD?

Ill try to say this purely as an observation from me playing without sounding like an attack or assuming...

If you DI correctly, comboing is not as easy as you make it sound and the reason why my vids don't dont show how "gay" 12% can be is because I know how to DI out of combos. Then again, its all on your perspective of "******** combos" It feels like a 3 hit legit combo that deals 40% is labeled as "********" Idk if its because we are not used to it but the combos in melee and 64 for that matter were much better than brawl+ with 12% and should be label as "********" more than brawl+.

I think no one has a problem with melee's combos because

1. It was already there, we had no choice in hitstun and the makers made it perfect
2. It was harder to do mainly because of the higher gravity which means you had to think faster compared to brawl

I don't use MAD btw

#1 it was a super friendly, the guy never played bowser with that code set on and you know when you first start how the timing for teching is diff

And how is this showing us what 10% truly is like?