Hitstun/shield stun Thread

[Finns7]

The Kirby match had some parts where it illustated where bowser was ***** and where he could of escaped.

Kupo Im thinking the airdodge is the key here also...With one airdodge you cant escape certain things as with mutliple.
I still dont think that fox utilized his 12% gayness **** combos he should replace his upsmashes with utilts to build up damage. 40 is nothing to me dude I played melee and 64 (definition of gay **** 0 to death combos) Im saying certain chars benefit 2 much even at 10 percent.




This whole histun is based off preference, I just played with 10 and you can do the yes combo but it is harder to set up...maybe its harder because I dont main falcon idk, maybe thats why. What chars are you guys testing with.

Edit: Guys Im going to bed idk it all comes down to fun, what gives you the most enjoyment but dont think makes you happy makes others happy too, Im saying this for MY theorys, Yours, and Jose's. I hope we get a good percentage we can agree with when all the additions are in aswell as what canceling code is out. It is still early and I feel that as long as we make brawl+ a fun (fair/balanced) competitive game (doesnt have to be melee clone, it should be its own game, we should strive to make it better than melee.)

 

[MookieRah]

Man, I told you guys that Char doesn't combo much without platforms, but nooooo you don't listen to me. I'll just have to prove it to you.

2nd match, check out that 70% combo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVLRsU1a4Gk

Tons of juggles in this one too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OgoOR8IX3M

Same here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUoCloO2wEc

This one says it's not *processed* yet, so it probably won't work till a few minutes or so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0C4y-QuD5E

And the thing is, you guys haven't seen anything till you see my Falcon combos and gimps. This is ****in Charizard stuff, he isn't what one would refer to as a combo king.

 

[KO M]

This is great, hitstun was lowered though in brawl , but its nice to know not all hope is lost.

 

[MuBa]

If you guys feel like you're getting closer to the optimum hitstun, then why not try out .75% increments?

Edit: Falcon is in dire need of a buff such as faster running, jumping, and attack speed.

 

[matt4300]

Deeum mookieRah that **** was off the chain... but i really wouldent mind it. plus falcon is one of the faster fallers in the game. try doing that to jiggly or ness ( 2 of my mains) but i will agree that charizard is really really sweet looking with hit stun.

EDIT: lol every death but the last in that third vid was falcons fault he had like 3 options in all but the first where he just killed his self >_> but yeh that Usmash is gay

 

[MookieRah]

Alright, the rest of my stuff from yesterday afternoon is done. Here they are:

Last Charizard match with Auri's Falcon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJkutfUr_mQ

My Falcon(normal color) vs Auri's Falcon(Fabulous Falcon) Auri freakin stole my colors and ****.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcAz2IDpXOs

My Falcon vs ClintBeastwood's G&W. I'm going to point out that prior to this match I had a glorious Falcon **** two stock, but Clint didn't want himself to look bad so he rapidly pressed A to prevent me from saving the replay. It was gay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCiQn0F0enI

We actually played last night some more, and I'm about to record some more of my Falcon stuff. He is so **** sexy it's just not funny. So is Charizard. They are beasts.

 

[Alopex]

I think it's becoming pretty clear that we'll need to develop two hitstun standards and we should have people testing them both:

One for Brawl+ with BAD.
And one for Brawl+ with MAD.

I believe that MAD will inherently require a lower hitstun because of the speed given to characters by the wavedash.
BAD setups will lack that and will thus need a higher hitstun in order to have combos to the same degree.


EDIT: The Falcon VS Falcon video seemed to really be lacking in combos compared to previous vids that kupo put up with the higher hitstun. What I mostly saw were Dthrow > Aerial and maybe one more Aerial. I dunno. Didn't seem like the hitstun was high enough to allow enough combos to connect. Maybe 10.5 or 11%? You went from 12 to 10, you said, without trying the in-betweens.

 

[Revven]

We actually played last night some more, and I'm about to record some more of my Falcon stuff. He is so **** sexy it's just not funny. So is Charizard. They are beasts.

Only thing of note that I didn't see you do with Falcon that makes his mobility AND combos so good is his wavedash. His Wavedash is SO useful in Brawl, it really helps connect his air attacks to his ground attacks. I was able to Dthrow > Nair > WD > jab > grab > Fthrow because of his WD. It's just sooooo good, you can do sliding jabs and you'll slide right past them and stuff. His WD is amazing if used right, I think you should try it some moar... at least, I didn't see you using it much in the matches you posted.

 

[sagemoon]

10% seems just right to me(for now at least), anything else makes combos too easy. In the middle of getting matches against fear posted.

 

[MookieRah]

Blar, I'm too lazy to learn wavedash. Actually there are two reasons, 1: I don't have my l-trigger modded so if I was to use it then I'll mod my controller, 2: I don't even know if MAD will be in the official tournament version of Brawl+! I'll just wait and continue to kick *** until I know that it's worth the time investment. Besides, I'm just about to upload more Falcon goodness. I end one video with a YES combo spike. All in 10% no less!

 

[leafgreen386]

You never mentioned in any of the video infos that you used MAD lol

Anyway, I think if you're going to test out a gametype, you should test it to its fullest. The wavedash given by MAD will have a dramatic effect on the ground game. I mean, whole debates have been solely about the wavedash granting properties of the MAD. Also... if you just alter the timing you should be able to WD with the L trigger anyway lol (or just use Z)

 

[MBlaze]

Does everyone agree on one and final gravity mod code to use with oh say, 12% or so of hitstun? And if so which one?

 

[MuBa]

Mookie, try out the dash dance code God-Is-My-Rock made a while ago.

It's not really a dash dance more like being able to run back and forth without any lag (and you start a new dash animation every time you pivot in your run)

I've also found a couple of new techniques like being able to pivot F-smash/grab and double pivot F-smash any time.

 

[MookieRah]

Anyway, I think if you're going to test out a gametype, you should test it to its fullest.

Well, in my opinion, MAD will come down to whether or not we can fit that in with all the codes. It's the longest code far and large, and I'd rather leave open those slots for more codes, and even a few balance fixes.

@Muba
I'm not a fan of the code really.

 

[MookieRah]

[EDIT]
For some reason when I edit posts sometimes it doesn't work properly. Probably my lame internet. In any case, this post was eaten by a bad edit TWICE. It isn't important enough to repost it here though.

 

[Alopex]

I don't have my l-trigger modded so if I was to use it then I'll mod my controller

I'm intrigued.

How would you mod your L-button? I've always hated the GC L-button and it's even more aggravating in Brawl without light shielding.
What would you do to your L-button? And would it be tourney legal?

 

[zxeon]

I have some videos but I can't upload to youtube yet. They where pretty good too.

 

[MookieRah]

To mod the trigger all you do is grab a tri-wing screw driver and remove the spring. That's all there is to it. It's tournament legal for Brawl, because the game doesn't recognize the button unless it's pressed down all the way. It's really bull****ty and another major Sakurai oversight.

I'm reposting my YES! combo spike vid, cause it was eaten by a bad edit due to ****ty internets :-(.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbrt2B01E-w
It's tasty, yummy, and delicious. I started toying with em, poor Auri... playing a character that is so easily gimped. It's a sad story for Ike mains.

 

[sagemoon]

mookie, just use z to wavedash, it feels weird for like the first day, then its 2nd nature. It pays off to learn how.

 

[kupo15]

Kupo Im thinking the airdodge is the key here also...With one airdodge you cant escape certain things as with mutliple.
I still dont think that fox utilized his 12% gayness **** combos he should replace his upsmashes with utilts to build up damage.

This is 100% correct, but I did. Its not the "best" but I think its the best proof we have at the moment.

Blar, I'm too lazy to learn wavedash. Actually there are two reasons, 1: I don't have my l-trigger modded so if I was to use it then I'll mod my controller, 2: I don't even know if MAD will be in the official tournament version of Brawl+!

Well, seeing how you enabled certain codes but don't use them to the fullest, I don't see how any of these vids is true proof of what can be done in your code set. Esp if you have s canceling on, your not showing what an S canceled aerial>wavedash would do to the speed of the game. If your afraid it won't become tourney standard...then don't use it!

To mod the trigger all you do is grab a tri-wing screw driver and remove the spring.

You can use the right eye glasses screw driver size. Stick it between to points, press hard at an angle, and go a tad slow. I did it to three controllers and my friends' ones.

Man, I told you guys that Char doesn't combo much without platforms, but nooooo you don't listen to me. I'll just have to prove it to you.

I think this is a problem. There are characters in melee where their combos were the best with platforms, but that doesn't mean they couldn't combo for anything on FD...

 

[MookieRah]

Well, seeing how you enabled certain codes but don't use them to the fullest, I don't see how any of these vids is true proof of what can be done in your code set.

Oh shush Kupo. You don't have to be so defensive about your code set. I already told you I couldn't break yours. Also, you know I'm neutral on MAD and BAD.

If your afraid it won't become tourney standard...then don't use it!

I just don't know which one will be used. Nor do you. I have it on cause the SBR currently has it on + ClintBeastwood likes it. I'm not really afraid either way. I'm lazy. Leave me alone.

 

[kupo15]

Wasn't trying to insult your code set or defend mine, I was just pointing things out but I guess I did it without meaning too, sorry >_<
That was a nice Zard combo though!

Even though you couldn't break my code set, you haven't pointed out anything specifically wrong with it.

Yea, I'm not sure what the SBR will use, but Id rather play the same game I already know how to play with combos instead of relearning a whole new way to play and finding out later it won't be used.

 

[storm92]

I don't understand why you use S-canceling AND ALC. That just doesn't make any sense to me, unless you auto-cancel or don't land with any notable lag (i.e. any of Sheik's aerials but Dair), why wouldn't you S-cancel?
I like the vids though.

 

[MookieRah]

Yea, I'm not sure what the SBR will use, but Id rather play the same game I already know how to play with combos instead of relearning a whole new way to play and finding out later it won't be used.

S-canceling isn't that complicated. Neither is grab canceling. It doesn't hurt to play with it either cause strategies that work with S-canceling would work with Magus Canceling (cept that with Magus canceling you could do normal attacks). Also, Auri says that even with MAD and S-canceling that the game feels more normal than it does with 12% hit stun. So not everyone feels that it's "relearning" the game really, it's just your personal opinion.

I don't understand why you use S-canceling AND ALC.

Why not have it on? Also, some aerials are faster for ground moves if you don't shield cancel with auto l-canceling. That's the main reason I have it on.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Why not have it on? Also, some aerials are faster for ground moves if you don't shield cancel with auto l-canceling. That's the main reason I have it on.

yoshi also benefits from both

 

[kupo15]

S-canceling isn't that complicated. Neither is grab canceling. It doesn't hurt to play with it either cause strategies that work with S-canceling would work with Magus Canceling (cept that with Magus canceling you could do normal attacks). Also, Auri says that even with MAD and S-canceling that the game feels more normal than it does with 12% hit stun. So not everyone feels that it's "relearning" the game really, it's just your personal opinion.
.

What I mean is this, my codeset's metagame has been developing for 9 months. Your code set's meta has been developing for 2/3ish weeks so its impossible for anyone who uses your code set to know what will happen in the future with the big changes you have. (A different form of movement, canceling, air dodge etc..)

The preference would be in the type of game you want.

 

[MookieRah]

Your code set's meta has been developing for 2/3ish weeks so its impossible for anyone who uses your code set to know what will happen in the future with the big changes you have.

Kupo, your code set hasn't been in development for 9 months. 12% hit stun is a MAJOR difference. I could say the same thing about your code set as mine. Both of our changes have slippery slopes, every competitive game has slippery slopes.

 

[Almas]

The % thing is really starting to be frustrating. Ah well.

I'm kind of torn with the entire hitstun thing - my group of players seems to prefer a high hitstun as well as increased gravity (to be honest I really do love increased grav - it takes the silly floatiness out of the game). However, I continually see the sense in the desire to have a lower hitstun to prevent some of the silly combos around. Hopefully codes which tweak stale moves will serve a purpose in removing some of the stupid stuff, allowing a higher hitstun.

 

[kupo15]

Kupo, your code set hasn't been in development for 9 months. 12% hit stun is a MAJOR difference. I could say the same thing about your code set as mine. Both of our changes have slippery slopes, every competitive game has slippery slopes.

sigh I guess I have to be more clear.

The hit stun stuff, your right, hasn't been developed. But, the general way you play the game is the same and has been developed for 9 months. No one has any changes to their movements since I don't play with WDing. The only thing different is that combos you imagine in vanilla brawl are reality. So thinking about it that way, it is easier to combo and be good in my code set since you aren't changing anything and you are generally playing the same way you would play vanilla brawl. This makes finding the right stun % easier in my code set.

The only exception is ALC. This changes the way you think about moves and it allows for other moves to be viable. ALC does change the game dramatically from vanilla brawl, the reason I don't mention it is because we both share this code so we both have a certain threshold of what we need to learn, but your code set goes above and beyond that.

With your code set, you have MAD which is a different form of movement that you have to figure out. In addition, you have s canceling which combined with MAD gives you more options than my code. You have more things to play around with than me which leaves a lot to be explored. This makes comboing and fighting harder until you test how they affect characters (ie WD after S canceled aerials)

 

[MookieRah]

The hit stun stuff, your right, hasn't been developed. But, the general way you play the game is the same and has been developed for 9 months.

And the hitstun is drastically changed, which DRASTICALLY changes the way the game is played. Captain Falcon's entire game changes! So does every other character.

No one has any changes to their movements since I don't play with WDing.

So?

With your code set, you have MAD which is a different form of movement that you have to figure out. In addition, you have s canceling which combined with MAD gives you more options than my code. You have more things to play around with than me which leaves a lot to be explored.

More options and new things aren't bad unless they break the game. As much as you talk about how the extra options in my code set is a slippery slope, one could argue that 12% stun presents a slippery slope as well. We have no idea how these things will play out.

Also, I'm not sold on MAD. Just cause I am trying it doesn't mean I advocate it.

 

[Wind Owl]

Remember how every character could do **** combos to fastfallers in Melee? What if there was less stun, but EVERYONE fell faster (not necessarily Melee Falco fast, just faster)? That would fix the "help I'm trapped in the air" feeling and also make better combos that don't have a ridiculous room for error to pull off. It also wouldn't nerf anyone's recoveries.

I think we should try to get that code next.

 

[ungulateman]

I like that Falcon is actually good now.

 

[MuBa]

He's got room to be better.

 

[kupo15]

And the hitstun is drastically changed, which DRASTICALLY changes the way the game is played. Captain Falcon's entire game changes! So does every other character.

The only thing different is that combos you imagine in vanilla brawl are reality. Hitstun doesnt change the game dramatically by forcing you to make up new combos, it affects the game in a way that the combos you think up of in vanilla brawl will work. Im sure every CF player was thinking about the combos we can do now, so its not like their mindset of how they play CF in this regard changes that much..

So?

Your learning a different way to move with your character and a different way to approach. The methods that worked in vanilla brawl don't equally match up against a player who can WD effectively and knows the ins and outs of what WD does to his character. Without it, this portion of the game doesn't change as much..

More options and new things aren't bad unless they break the game. As much as you talk about how the extra options in my code set is a slippery slope, one could argue that 12% stun presents a slippery slope as well. We have no idea how these things will play out.

Please. Point out exactly where in my post I said that more options in your code set will cause a slippery slope effect and break the game instead of being another obstacle to overcome before you know whats possible in your code set.

Also, I'm not sold on MAD. Just cause I am trying it doesn't mean I advocate it.

Don't worry. Of course ppl can try things without advocating it. I was merely pointing out before how I think it might be hard for ppl to see how your code set is better or its fine without it being that developed. Like, you may not advocate it, but you don't try to break it the way you tried to break my set. And unless I am misunderstanding, this seems to be your proof as to why 12% is too high..

Remember how every character could do **** combos to fastfallers in Melee? What if there was less stun, but EVERYONE fell faster (not necessarily Melee Falco fast, just faster)? That would fix the "help I'm trapped in the air" feeling and also make better combos that don't have a ridiculous room for error to pull off. It also wouldn't nerf anyone's recoveries.

I think we should try to get that code next.

What an excellent point. I agree that I think the reason why ppl (and myself) feel that comboing is easier is not because the stun time is OP, its just that being pressed for time while comboing isn't there.

I add that to the next PM when PW PMs me back from being away since tues night..

 

[matt4300]

uhh how does PW feel about all of this... from what i understand he dident really care much for the codes other than them being a chalenge. Wich makes me wonder if he would just get bored and stop some time. >_>'

 

[MookieRah]

He's got room to be better.

Falcon with hit stun is actually really good. His only weakness is priority. Aside from that he has excellent gimps, reliable knee combos at varying percents, awesome combos, he's hard to KO, and his recovery is decent. He is definitely a tournament viable character, probably upper tier material (kinda like how he was in Melee).

Hitstun doesnt change the game dramatically

Yes it does. You distort a factor of the game so much it does change things drastically. Everything is different, every character plays differently.

The methods that worked in vanilla brawl don't equally match up against a player who can WD effectively and knows the ins and outs of what WD does to his character.

So the person with the most skill has an advantage? What's wrong with that?

Please. Point out exactly where in my post I said that more options in your code set will cause a slippery slope effect and break the game instead of being another obstacle to overcome before you know whats possible in your code set.

Well you got me on that one.

Of course ppl can try things without advocating it. I was merely pointing out before how I think it might be hard for ppl to see how your code set is better or its fine without it being that developed. Like, you may not advocate it, but you don't try to break it the way you tried to break my set. And unless I am misunderstanding, this seems to be your proof as to why 12% is too high..

I wasn't proving 12% was too high, I was proving all the combos you can get at 10%. Most of you didn't think that it was enough for the combos you had envisioned, yet I have been pulling off some very impressive combos with less stun. I even pulled off a YES! combo, although the one I used is not the same kind that you used, it's still a YES! combo. My whole point is that you don't have to have guaranteed combos to have badass combos.

 

[Team Giza]

To all the people who are mainly just playing at 10% and saying the combos are so good and easy that we shouldnt raise it any higher should try higher %s. Ive been playing at 10% and 11.5% quite a bit and I have noticed that a lot of moves are much easier to combo in 10%. Notable Falcon's nair, which I can easily combo people across the stage with at 10% but have a lot more trouble doing it at 11.5% because they go into tumble faster and thus can DI the move a lot better as well.

What I have been noticing at 10% is the combos are more set and guaranteed for a lot of characters but don't have as much potential. And with 11.5% it seems there is more combo potential there but there is also more potential for DIing so the combos are less guaranteed.

 

[kupo15]

Yes it does. You distort a factor of the game so much it does change things drastically. Everything is different, every character plays differently.

Thanks for responding to a fragment taken out of context. Im going to ignore this point because your answering to the wrong thing for reasons that I don't know. If your going to answer this point, answer it in the context in which it is found. You forgot to include whats bolded in your rebuttal

By kupo

Hitstun doesnt change the game dramatically by forcing you to make up new combos, it affects the game in a way that the combos you think up of in vanilla brawl will work.

Take two....-_-

So the person with the most skill has an advantage? What's wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with that. The believe this argument was about how the metagame in my code set is more developed than the one that your playing with...and that was my proof...

I wasn't proving 12% was too high, I was proving all the combos you can get at 10%. Most of you didn't think that it was enough for the combos you had envisioned, yet I have been pulling off some very impressive combos with less stun. I even pulled off a YES! combo, although the one I used is not the same kind that you used, it's still a YES! combo. My whole point is that you don't have to have guaranteed combos to have badass combos.

Giza answered this one in the post above this one. Actually, this has been like the 3rd time he has mentioned this. I would hate for it to be ignored...yet again.

 

[MookieRah]

Nothing is wrong with that. The believe this argument was about how the metagame in my code set is more developed than the one that your playing with...and that was my proof...

Only because mine has more complicated and skill intensive options that people have not yet mastered?

Giza does bring up a good point though.

 

[kupo15]

Only because mine has more complicated and skill intensive options that people have not yet mastered?

Yes. There is nothing wrong with that. This was the whole point I argued in the first place:

I was merely pointing out before how I think it might be hard for ppl to see how your code set is better or its fine without it being that developed. Like, you may not advocate it, but you don't try to break it the way you tried to break my set.
And unless I am misunderstanding, this (the bolded) seems to be your proof as to why 12% is too high..

I wasn't trying to provoke an argument, I was just pointing out something i noticed and wanted further clarification.