Hitstun/shield stun Thread

[MookieRah]

How are you supposed to SHFFL if you are locked into your giant short hop?

You wait till the apex and then you fast fall like it always worked before? The large short hops aren't nearly as inhibiting as you guys make it out to be. We need to make fast falls faster, but we don't need to alter when you can perform them.

 

[zxeon]

You wait till the apex and then you fast fall like it always worked before? The large short hops aren't nearly as inhibiting as you guys make it out to be. We need to make fast falls faster, but we don't need to alter when you can perform them.

If you can't interupt a short hop then you either are stuck jumping much earlier or unable to change directions or space yourself after doing an attack at the beggining of your jump.

 

[MookieRah]

If you can't interupt a short hop then you either are stuck jumping much earlier or unable to change directions or space yourself after doing an attack at the beggining of your jump.

Again, I will restate that this isn't much of a problem for me anymore. It was annoying at first, but now I'm used to it. I've learned how to compensate for the short hops being higher than they were in melee, and it doesn't slow me down much at all.

 

[Finns7]

zxeo how did you feel about 10 with bad when we played online...there were combos for both of us even with bad...If it wasnt laggin it prob would been more...

Now with this fast fallin business I would be for it espeacialy since i use MAD it would help get out of combos aswell as keep certain chars in them...

the short hops i dont care im comfortable too

 

[leafgreen386]

I think the point you can ff is on a timer from when you leave the ground, since as we know you can perform an aerial out of hitstun and then ff in regular brawl, when you still have upward momentum, so it's not determined by whether you have positive or negative vertical momentum. I don't think there'd be anything wrong with making a code that allows you to ff while still rising by disabling this timer (as long as you also eliminate the cstick fast falls), but you would also need to decrease hitstun and/or increase gravity, because that would just make comboing even easier.

 

[Finns7]

Oh and on the other page I dont think it would be good to concetrate on character balancing right now. Im a link main btw

 

[MookieRah]

I think that there is no need to adjust the timing of fast falls. I think there should simply be a shorter short hop code with a faster fast fall code. That way you'd get the benefit that zxeon wants without tampering with basic, working mechanics of the game. Honestly I'm not even sold on a shorter short hop, but it probably wouldn't hurt.

 

[kupo15]

I think short hopping is fine as well and the timing of the FF is fine also.

 

[Finns7]

I think short hopping is fine as well and the timing of the FF is fine also.

i agree


10agreements

 

[zxeon]

I think short hopping is fine as well and the timing of the FF is fine also.

It could be better.

With this code there might not be a need for rediculous amounts of hitstun.

Kill the timer!

 

[kupo15]

It could be better.

With this code there might not be a need for rediculous amounts of hitstun.

Kill the timer!

Hitstun needs to be higher because because are floaty, not because of the FF timer....

 

[zxeon]

Hitstun needs to be higher because because are floaty, not because of the FF timer....

I mean it would be easy to string together aerials and ground moves because you would be able to cancel your aerial into a ground move by fast falling.

 

[kupo15]

I mean it would be easy to string together aerials and ground moves because you would be able to cancel your aerial into a ground move by fast falling.

Faster fall speed will allow you to reach the ground faster thus making it not much of a problem. I think its fine the way it is

 

[leafgreen386]

I think that there is no need to adjust the timing of fast falls. I think there should simply be a shorter short hop code with a faster fast fall code. That way you'd get the benefit that zxeon wants without tampering with basic, working mechanics of the game. Honestly I'm not even sold on a shorter short hop, but it probably wouldn't hurt.

But if the sh is shorter, than ff's will happen later (assuming I'm right about it being on a timer).

Also, I was saying that we might be able to lower the hitstun time if we had faster fast falls since we could throw out aerials faster, but we couldn't reduce it by too much, I don't think, otherwise we'd just be back to the same old airdodge everywhere game.

However, if we change the gravity (and include appropriate jump and vertical kb mods) then I think that could be a much more palatable solution, overall (note we'd still probably have to fix the timer on FFs if such a timer exists).

 

[zxeon]

Faster fall speed will allow you to reach the ground faster thus making it not much of a problem. I think its fine the way it is

You can't reach the ground if you can't drop before you get to the top of your jump. It wont matter how fast you can fall it won't matter if you can use it.

 

[kupo15]

You can't reach the ground if you can't drop before you get to the top of your jump. It wont matter how fast you can fall it won't matter if you can use it.

yea, but faster falling + FF should be sufficient. I see nothing wrong with how it works now without the faster falling tbh...

 

[Finns7]

would anybody like to play 10% no trip

 

[zxeon]

yea, but faster falling + FF should be sufficient. I see nothing wrong with how it works now without the faster falling tbh...

Being able to fast fall before the top of your jump doesn't mean you can't short hop regularly the code would just give you another option aside from that.

 

[kupo15]

would anybody like to play 10% no trip

Not here please. ^_^

 

[Osi]

yea, but faster falling + FF should be sufficient. I see nothing wrong with how it works now without the faster falling tbh...

I totally agree. FF just being a little faster would be fine with me. There is no real need to make characters FF early... in fact all it would lead to is everyone fastfall the same timing as WD to make the entire jump animation faster.


So.... I was wondering if there is a way to take the collision off the windmill platforms on poke stadium 1, or at least make it like melee collision was.

 

[zxeon]

Am I the only one who sees the uses in this?

 

[MookieRah]

We all see the uses, we simply think that it's unnecessary.

 

[kangaroo]

There are two different ways to balance Brawl: change the individual character's aspects, or change the rules of the game.

The former is nitpicky, the latter is widespread and causes other changes (like making it more fun) that are important and wanted as well. Plus, while each character needs balance, there needs to be a balance between offense and defense in the game that people enjoy for it to feel balanced.

I feel like character specific codes should be the last thing implemented. Considering how huge a buff Hitstun is for a lot of characters (Falcon, Yoshi, Sheik, etc.) and how a couple are nerfed by it (ie Dedede), I wonder how other codes will shake up the balance. None will be as big as hitstun, of course, but effort and time should go to the major game-changing codes before the nitpicky character fixes.

I fully agree. I don't even know why we are talking about character balances when we don't even know how the current hacks will affect all the characters. It's also why I prefer MAD. It adds options and depth to the game which I think is more important than small, specific character fixes. Also, I think that when you add tech skill to the game, it decreases the effects of character imbalances in a matchup. A low tier can compete with a high tier if the low-tier player can utlilize techniques better. In melee, players like Gimpyfish (bowser) and Fumi(yoshi) did well even against high tiers because of their ability to make the most of ATs.

 

[MookieRah]

I don't even know why we are talking about character balances when we don't even know how the current hacks will affect all the characters.

It's mainly recovery issues and nerfing Meta. I think the convo got started when I mentioned that I'd rather have character balance fixes than MAD. Also, there needs to be tweaks to MAD or it should be tossed IMO. CF might be too good with MAD as is. Hopefully I can get some videos up of me demonstrating why I believe this, cause I don't think many people would believe it till they see it.

So.... I was wondering if there is a way to take the collision off the windmill platforms on poke stadium 1, or at least make it like melee collision was.

While I greatly prefer the windmill how it was in Melee, it's not so bad in Brawl. Learn to use it to your advantage and it can be your friend sometimes. It's definitely not worth lines of codes to fix though.

 

[MuBa]

Just a friendly reminder to anyone who hasn't joined the Brawl+ Brigade social group plz do so. We need all the help we can get to make this project a success.

http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=406

 

[Osi]

It's mainly recovery issues and nerfing Meta. I think the convo got started when I mentioned that I'd rather have character balance fixes than MAD. Also, there needs to be tweaks to MAD or it should be tossed IMO. CF might be too good with MAD as is. Hopefully I can get some videos up of me demonstrating why I believe this, cause I don't think many people would believe it till they see it.
While I greatly prefer the windmill how it was in Melee, it's not so bad in Brawl. Learn to use it to your advantage and it can be your friend sometimes. It's definitely not worth lines of codes to fix though.

Ah yea... it may take a lot of code, and that's a waste on just 1 stage vs global game codes

 

[leafgreen386]

I totally agree. FF just being a little faster would be fine with me. There is no real need to make characters FF early... in fact all it would lead to is everyone fastfall the same timing as WD to make the entire jump animation faster.

Well, it would actually depend on what aerial you wanted to use, where in the aerial you wanted to hit your opponent, and how high you wanted to go with your jump, for deciding when you fast fall. I would imagine there are aerials that you wouldn't want to ff throughout the entire attack. I mean, look at stuff like ganon's dair. It wouldn't even be able to come out if you ff too soon. Other chars with startup on their aerials run into a similar problem (like fox's bair).

However, I do think that just changing the fall speed in general would be more than enough, and with the proper compensation for vertical knockback and jump force, would be a much more solid fix. It will both help and hinder combos, interestingly enough, but I don't think editing fast falls specifically will really do all that much besides help the comboer (when we already determined that comboing feels too easy since the comboer isn't pressed for time).

 

[MookieRah]

However, I do think that just changing the fall speed in general would be more than enough, and with the proper compensation for vertical knockback and jump force, would be a much more solid fix. It will both help and hinder combos, interestingly enough, but I don't think editing fast falls specifically will really do all that much besides help the comboer (when we already determined that comboing feels too easy since the comboer isn't pressed for time).

You know, when you put it like that I agree with you more on the gravity thing.

 

[Osi]

Well, it would actually depend on what aerial you wanted to use, where in the aerial you wanted to hit your opponent, and how high you wanted to go with your jump, for deciding when you fast fall. I would imagine there are aerials that you wouldn't want to ff throughout the entire attack. I mean, look at stuff like ganon's dair. It wouldn't even be able to come out if you ff too soon. Other chars with startup on their aerials run into a similar problem (like fox's bair).

However, I do think that just changing the fall speed in general would be more than enough, and with the proper compensation for vertical knockback and jump force, would be a much more solid fix. It will both help and hinder combos, interestingly enough, but I don't think editing fast falls specifically will really do all that much besides help the comboer (when we already determined that comboing feels too easy since the comboer isn't pressed for time).

That is very true, there are likely a lot of cases where fast falling earlier would not be wanted because the normal animation barely finishes in a short hop.



I was wondering about the whole MAD/BAD thing due to code limit. So right now the codes I am using would be:

80 - MAD
28 - S cancel
34 - Hitstun
6 - no laser/jab locks
2 - no trips

So, with MAD that comes to 150 leaving like what 100 lines more left to use? The big 2 left being shield stun and a more melee style edge system. Shield stun may be a shorter line... but given people want to be able to cancel faster, not sweet spot easy from below, and less invisible frames on edges that is a lot to code I'd assume. Without MAD that's 80 more to run with... anyone else see a long drawn out debate on BAD vs MAD coming? (this is assuming shield and edge take more than say 100 code lines).

Personally I'd like to see a simple code for edges that allows MAD to be in because I am not a fan of BAD system. Not just cause of wavedashing, I actually like the way MAD is used in the air more than BAD.


I was also wondering what the SBR's current outlook/trend on using these at tourneys, tier lists, and setting a standard. I know it's so new that this may be rather hard to answer at this time.

 

[zxeon]

There is a possiblity that the MAD code can be simplified.

 

[MookieRah]

There is a possiblity that the MAD code can be simplified.

Actually I think there is an easy modification that would make it better and be less code. MAD shouldn't prevent you from attacking or upB'ing out of it. There is a reason why I believe this, and that is because Falcon can seriously **** people way off the ledge and the only way to prevent it from happening is if you could air dodge without falling to your death. Charizard gimps are rather harsh as well. With MAD as is I think gimping and crazy stuff off the ledge could make things unbalanced for many characters without these options very, very fast.

Ike is TERRIBLE in my setup right now, cause it's such a joke to gimp him. Don't believe me? Then watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbrt2B01E-w

Granted, there are things that Auri could have done to lessen my gimps, but a lot of it was outside his control. I'm beginning to think that after Meta, Falcon might be the most broke character in Brawl+.

Back to what I was saying, I think my proposed changes would allow for some more flexibility with air dodges and wouldn't cause any problems in the long run.

 

[Finns7]

I thought there was a debate idk where it went. Time will tell, I use Mad and I enjoy it more than BAD right now. what hitstun do you use osi? Also I wouldnt do that no laser jab lock I heard it was kinda >_>...

People who like BAD seem to go higher than 10 usually.

What if the airdodge only allowed you to airdodge in the lower directions, thus making wding possible and also not making it to easy to get back without being gimped. the directions would be that if you hold R or L then press <left or everything down, or to the right> u wouldnt be allowed to airdodge upwards in any way...

Or Mad where you can do **** after but you lose your airdodge or it goes back to the BAD system after your 1 melee are dodge. idk

 

[zxeon]

Actually I think there is an easy modification that would make it better and be less code. MAD shouldn't prevent you from attacking or upB'ing out of it. There is a reason why I believe this, and that is because Falcon can seriously **** people way off the ledge and the only way to prevent it from happening is if you could air dodge without falling to your death. I think that would allow for some more flexibility with air dodges and not cause any problems.

I believe this news. Taking all the disabling stuff off the code would shorten it a good deal.

 

[Osi]

I thought there was a debate idk where it went. Time will tell, I use Mad and I enjoy it more than BAD right now. what hitstun do you use osi? Also I wouldnt do that no laser jab lock I heard it was kinda >_>...

Yea I just put the lock code in mine now, and actually took it back out (not a fan lol). I have been jumping from 10 to 11 hitstun trying to make a choice on which I like more. So far 10 feels a little better. It really feels like my set combos are easier to pull off, and I have less time to improvise and just juggle than on 11. I tried higher and it just felt too easy to combo.

Like on 10 with fox vs wolf I was testing around and ended up doing : short hop drill > utilt > utilt > utilt > f throw > dash attack > u tilt > short hop drill > up tilt >> whatever air finish you want. It's not too hard to DI out/MAD of during the utilts on the first set, but it can be a little tricky the first time it's done to you lol(also can only grab for the throw some times). Anywho, I was able to pull this so much easier on 10. On 11 my friends could DI it much easier, or at least it seems that way.

I am loving fox so much again now with hitstun back in.

Actually I think there is an easy modification that would make it better and be less code. MAD shouldn't prevent you from attacking or upB'ing out of it. There is a reason why I believe this, and that is because Falcon can seriously **** people way off the ledge and the only way to prevent it from happening is if you could air dodge without falling to your death. Charizard gimps are rather harsh as well. With MAD as is I think gimping and crazy stuff off the ledge could make things unbalanced for many characters without these options very, very fast.

Ike is TERRIBLE in my setup right now, cause it's such a joke to gimp him. Don't believe me? Then watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbrt2B01E-w

Granted, there are things that Auri could have done to lessen my gimps, but a lot of it was outside his control. I'm beginning to think that after Meta, Falcon might be the most broke character in Brawl+.

Back to what I was saying, I think my proposed changes would allow for some more flexibility with air dodges and wouldn't cause any problems in the long run.

While I am of the opinion that you should be dead in the air after MAD... up B would be a good idea. At least then people can have some option off stage to get back VS people like falcon. I would dislike the idea of using A attacks after MAD, but that's just a personal preference.

 

[Osi]

sorry for double post, moved it into the post above.

 

[plasmatorture]

Currently me and my roommate greatly perfer BAD to MAD. I love wavedashing (although I'm still not used to it in Brawl) and I like the momentum of it and that it's more punishable when used wrong, but going into helpless feels too restrictive after playing with BAD for so long.
If MAD just stopped you from airdodging after using it but still could Up+B and attack, I'd love it. I'm not sure how my roommate feels about it but I bet he thinks the same.

Are ZSS's suit pieces banned from use in tournament play, by the way? We've comboed each other using them to death right from the start of the match several times on Yoshi's Island and Smashville at 11% hit stun. If you dodge/reflect the first toss it's easy to get around, but it feels very wrong to have such a powerful combo. I haven't tested it enough but I'm pretty sure there's nothing you can do to avoid it. If they aren't banned, I think eventually a code to make them not appear would be great.

 

[zxeon]

Currently me and my roommate greatly perfer BAD to MAD. I love wavedashing (although I'm still not used to it in Brawl) and I like the momentum of it and that it's more punishable when used wrong, but going into helpless feels too restrictive after playing with BAD for so long.
If MAD just stopped you from airdodging after using it but still could Up+B and attack, I'd love it. I'm not sure how my roommate feels about it but I bet he thinks the same.

Are ZSS's suit pieces banned from use in tournament play, by the way? We've comboed each other using them to death right from the start of the match several times on Yoshi's Island and Smashville at 11% hit stun. If you dodge/reflect the first toss it's easy to get around, but it feels very wrong to have such a powerful combo. I haven't tested it enough but I'm pretty sure there's nothing you can do to avoid it. If they aren't banned, I think eventually a code to make them not appear would be great.

Lol, You're getting comboed by ZSS' parts?

 

[Osi]

Lol, You're getting comboed by ZSS' parts?

I've seen some nasty things done at the start of ZSS rounds lol, but never a combo with them really. There's always a way to avoid them without too much of a hassle. I'd actually love to see a vid of this to see how they are using them, could be a cool thing to watch.

 

[plasmatorture]

Lol, You're getting comboed by ZSS' parts?

I never said I was good.

Anyways after some thorough testing against a CPU 9 just now I've concluded that it's only doable against certain characters. But it really doesn't seem to be escapable IF you get hit by the first throw. The added hitstun really keeps you stunned long enough for it to be an actual threat... assuming you're sloppy enough to get hit by the first toss. I have some replays of me doing it successfully that I can upload to youtube (just the first few seconds of each match, I'll spare you my bad ZSS playing) if you want to see them, but it really isn't that big a deal.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

@mookie:

that ike sucks ***. ike's ground game is incredibly deadly and he has reliable combos at every percent plus he has a great grab game. don't underestimate him.