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Hitstun/shield stun Thread

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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Oh, well I already told you that I wasn't too concerned about wavedashing cause I'm not even sure about MAD. Honestly I am leaning BAD cause of less code. The SBR isn't sure on it either. That said, I'm not sure which way it is going to go, and right now I'm mainly testing S-canceling and 10% stun. Most of the combos I'm doing wouldn't be affected by which airdodge is in use. Besides, my friends love it how it is, and they are the only people I can consistently play with.

I would try out 11.5%, but I doubt I will have many opportunities to play much with friends because we are heading back home for Christmas break. Auri plays when we are at the apartment, but he more than likely won't show up to play Brawl+ if he were to be invited to Clint's place. It's a sad story, I live in a ****ty smash area.
 

SketchHurricane

Smash Ace
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Winter Park, FL
All this talk about 10 and 12, what about 11? Not 11.5, 11...I think my next set will be with that percent.

BTW, what code is PW working on at the moment?

And whats the deal with that dash dance code I heard about? Does it just remove the pivot animation?
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
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I think 11.5 is a good compromise atm with my codeset.

PW cant work right now because he doesn't have his stuff. He actually hasnt been on GSC in 4 days. When he is ready, it will be shield and ledge nerfs
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
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Remember how every character could do **** combos to fastfallers in Melee? What if there was less stun, but EVERYONE fell faster (not necessarily Melee Falco fast, just faster)? That would fix the "help I'm trapped in the air" feeling and also make better combos that don't have a ridiculous room for error to pull off. It also wouldn't nerf anyone's recoveries.

I think we should try to get that code next.
Well, we can already do that with the gravity code. The problem is that increasing fall speed will inevitably nerf recoveries, simply due to the way the game calculates vertical momentum.

First thing you need to realize is that there is no such thing as acceleration due to gravity in brawl. No, really, there isn't. You always fall at the same rate. The game just makes it look like there is acceleration through the use of some kind of momentum degeneration. Basically, if your jump has an initial launch power of 6 units per frame (upf) which then causes your vertical position to increase by 6 - x upf (where x is the number of frames since beginning the jump and cannot exceed the initial jump force), and gravity causes your vertical positioning to drop by 2 upf, then your vertical positioning each frame can be illustrated as such (x in the following is the vertical displacement from the start point):

x(frame number) = previous x + jump force - gravity

x0 = you're on the ground
x1 = 0 + 6 - 2 = 4
x2 = 4 + 5 - 2 = 7
x3 = 7 + 4 - 2 = 9
x4 = 9 + 3 - 2 = 10
x5 = 10 + 2 - 2 = 10
x6 = 10 + 1 - 2 = 9
x7 = 9 + 0 - 2 = 7
x8 = 7 + 0 - 2 = 5
x9 = 5 + 0 - 2 = 3
x10 = 3 + 0 - 2 = 1
x11 = you're on the ground again

Of course these numbers were selected just for the sake of an easy example. The actual numbers the game uses are obviously quite different, but as you can see, on frames 5 and 6 in this example, it is possible to create the appearance of acceleration after reaching the apex, while everything afterward is just a constant fall rate, but since you don't have to drop much further, it still looks more or less natural since you've already seen "acceleration."

This is the reason that gravity nerfs recoveries and jumps. In the example above, if this were on heavy brawl, the -2 would be replaced by a -3, resulting in the following:

x0 = you're on the ground
x1 = 0 + 6 - 3 = 3
x2 = 3 + 5 - 3 = 5
x3 = 5 + 4 - 3 = 6
x4 = 6 + 3 - 3 = 6
x5 = 6 + 2 - 3 = 5
x6 = 5 + 1 - 3 = 2
x7 = you're on the ground again

I'm not exactly sure how the game handles the momentum degeneration, but I do offer a possible reason for it in this post: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5984253&postcount=169

Let's try and take this discussion over to that thread, since this thread is supposed to be for hitstun.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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When he is ready, it will be shield and ledge nerfs
I look forward to that. I wanna try your setup with shield stun and see how it goes, and I can't wait to be able to not have to wait a few seconds on the ledge before re-grabbing it.
 

kupo15

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I look forward to that. I wanna try your setup with shield stun and see how it goes, and I can't wait to be able to not have to wait a few seconds on the ledge before re-grabbing it.
Me too. I really hope PW takes a visit to his cpu. I know I probably would die if I was without it for 4 days like he is...

I realized today we need to add another code when the auto sweet spot is out. We need a code so that lucas, ness, and diddy don't crash in their up b and can slide along walls like fox. It makes their recoveries too hard and ********..
 

MookieRah

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We need a code so that lucas, ness, and diddy don't crash in their up b and can slide along walls like fox.
Yeah, that would be ******** if they didn't have that, lol. It's hard enough as is to be accurate with the Earthbounders's recoveries as is.
 

Osi

Smash Ace
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Oh, well I already told you that I wasn't too concerned about wavedashing cause I'm not even sure about MAD. Honestly I am leaning BAD cause of less code. The SBR isn't sure on it either. That said, I'm not sure which way it is going to go, and right now I'm mainly testing S-canceling and 10% stun. Most of the combos I'm doing wouldn't be affected by which airdodge is in use. Besides, my friends love it how it is, and they are the only people I can consistently play with.

I would try out 11.5%, but I doubt I will have many opportunities to play much with friends because we are heading back home for Christmas break. Auri plays when we are at the apartment, but he more than likely won't show up to play Brawl+ if he were to be invited to Clint's place. It's a sad story, I live in a ****ty smash area.
Hiya Mookie,

Sorry if this post seems rude at all, I'm just hoping to understand why no MAD. So, as far as the code being too long... I'm new to this style of modding, is the limit you can code so short that MAD will effect much? It is a long set of code, I was laughing when I went to put the code in and it was as long as all 3 lag cancel codes combined lol.

I'm just asking this because MAD/L cancel/Hit Stun made my crew return to playing, and sad as it is MAD was what took me back. I loved WD on melee... it was such an amazing set of button presses to simply slam your character around the stage with more control. I love it on brawl+ too. Once I got down using Z instead of R for it I was sold. Anywho, if it would cost more important aspects of the game to be left out then I'd like to see it go too.

Aside from being so cool... I use it a lot to mess with people on my entries now, and it adds more punishment to dodging (IMO). I'd just like to know more about how much would be sacrificed for the long MAD code.

I'm really looking forward to edge cancels being fast again, and no sticky hands from the bottom. Should make matches really entertaining ^^.
 

SketchHurricane

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Winter Park, FL
I got some 11 BAD vids coming a bit later today, featuring ZSS vs Fox, Luigi vs Oli, and one Falcon vs Sheik.

I have a lot of other matches with 10 MAD, but I'll just throw them all together in a highlight reel since most of the time we stop the match just to mess around :chuckle:
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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In favor of what?? I would MUCH rather have MAD than the PT code (sorry Mookie ).
PT code is 39 lines. MAD is 80+. Considering there are other things out there as well that should be considered when they come around then it's easy to see that MAD falls down a bit on the priority list. I'll be fine if the PT codes don't end up being implemented, I'll just play Falcon. I'll be sad though, cause RAWRIZARD is a beast.

I'm also beginning to see how the game might become somewhat tilted with MAD, or at least with airdodges that prevent you from actions afterwards. I was working up setups for YES! combos yesterday, and while it was against computers I found ways that seemingly would allow Falcon to absolutely destroy pretty much every character off stage. Weak fairs -> upB works surprisingly well. The obvious uair -> upB still works. Also, at higher percentages reverse uairs -> upB works too. I'm going to try it against human players whenever I can to see how it goes, but I'm pretty sure that as long as I'm careful and don't upB from a kneejerk I could safely perform off the stage YES! combos with ease.

This would be easily prevented by a few things. A: Have MAD to where you can perform other actions afterwards, B: use BAD. I would't think many characters can do this, but then again I really don't know enough about other characters's off the stage game.
 

MookieRah

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I think around half of it is used up in my set. Kupo's is a lot less intensive, mainly cause he is sporting BAD. If I dropped MAD then I would be sitting at around 100 lines taken up.

I also think that fixing a few balance issues is more important than MAD. Mario needs more launch power on his upB, Meta would need a nerf, Yoshi needs his shield to act normal and possibly more launch power on his upB in the air, and etc. These would go a long way to making these characters playable in Brawl+.
 

kupo15

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About the MK nerf, how much do you think the nerfed ledges will affect him? He won't be able to ledge stall, he needs to be more accurate with the ledge, and Im not sure if he can drill rush to recover without being open. What other changes to him were you thinking?

And yes, I use 70 lines right now
 

MookieRah

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To nerf Meta just remove the added hitstun from him. Brawl meta versus Brawl+ characters would probably end up being an even match.
 

Wind Owl

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Suburbs of Philadelphia, PA
But fastfalling Meta Knight would be so amazing D:

Can you imagine every character having a nasty Uthrow chaingrab on him? It would be too good.

And it would take a lot less lines of code.
 

lavamage

Smash Ace
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Wisconsin...yay that place no one has ever heard o
I used the ocarina program here on the smash boards that came with no tripping, melee air dodge, and a form of this hit stun code. I was playing single player all-star on easy mode with kirby. I had 110% and I was hit by a GDorf up tilt. First time he did it, and I only went about...half the distance of battlefield. I may have gotten only slightly hit by it, but it felt liek i was being hit full-on. I was also going to say that MK seemed harder to KO with, but then I read people saying that he was nerfed, so ya.

Anyway, great job with the code.
 

SketchHurricane

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But fastfalling Meta Knight would be so amazing D:

Can you imagine every character having a nasty Uthrow chaingrab on him? It would be too good.

And it would take a lot less lines of code.
But then he could combo better as well since he is so fast on the ground...and if we end up making a universal fast fall code anyway, we would suddenly need another solution for meta.

The no hitstun idea is worth a try. It doesn't nerf him, but rather brings everyone else up to par.
 

matt4300

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i was thinking the same sketch hurricane. takeing away only his hit stun would make him even with alot of the cast
 

MookieRah

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The no hitstun idea is worth a try. It doesn't nerf him, but rather brings everyone else up to par.
Yeah. Meta already combos well, and none of them are legit combos. He just he has so much priority, good aerial movement, and reach with his attacks. Even without stun he could hold up to the rest of the cast. All of his tricks would still be good, but other characters have stuff that's more on par. The only thing about meta that would be hard to manage would be planking, but if that is a severe issue then they will find some way to regulate it so he isn't broken, but still usable in tournament play.
 

kupo15

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The only thing about meta that would be hard to manage would be planking, but if that is a severe issue then they will find some way to regulate it so he isn't broken, but still usable in tournament play.
I think planking will be nerfed a little with nerfed ledges..
 

MookieRah

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I think planking will be nerfed a little with nerfed ledges..
It may be nerfed, but it would still be good, and if something is good then people will learn to do it. The fact is that it shuts a lot of characters down because they don't have options to counter it.
 

zxeon

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But then he could combo better as well since he is so fast on the ground...and if we end up making a universal fast fall code anyway, we would suddenly need another solution for meta.

The no hitstun idea is worth a try. It doesn't nerf him, but rather brings everyone else up to par.
No hitstun for metaknight. He already has all the tools he needs. I think it might be easier to make a code that makes him unaffected by all codes. We should do that.
 

matt4300

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We seem to have the major codes out of the way by now. So shouldnet we have a Brawl+ char balenceing thread going somewhere. Haveing one or more people keeping up with the good ideas and haveing everyone playing brawl+ debate. It seems like the best possible thing we could do with brawl+ is balance the chars to a better degree. The codes like nerfed ledges and such seem trivial in comparision.
 

kupo15

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We seem to have the major codes out of the way by now. So shouldnet we have a Brawl+ char balenceing thread going somewhere. Haveing one or more people keeping up with the good ideas and haveing everyone playing brawl+ debate. It seems like the best possible thing we could do with brawl+ is balance the chars to a better degree. The codes like nerfed ledges and such seem trivial in comparision.
Are you serious? We are only halfway done with the codes. Shield nerf and ledge nerfs are two major aspects of the game needed to be fixed. Like..huge

/|______________________________________________________________________|\

(like my drawling of a huge crater showing how big a difference those two codes will make?)

^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^
 

zxeon

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Fast falling before the apex of your jump, shield stun, and nerfed ledges all need to be made before we start balancing characters.

Whoa kupo, don't bite the guys head off.
 

MookieRah

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I've kept up with everything I heard people discussing when it came to balancing issues. The thing is that we have to identify what is the most important at balancing characters so that we can fix very little things that won't take up much code, but will also do the most good for the character. Removing stun from meta would probably take a handful of lines and so should giving Mario more launch power on his upB. The Yoshi shield thing might be pretty big :-(, but who knows. At least the upB launch power would probably be small.

Come to think of it, I would probably increase the upB launch power of Ganon and Link as well, they struggle a bit too much recovery wise too. Not as significant as Mario and Yoshi though.

I think a lot of balance issues would be solved if we just buffed recoveries. It's stupid how there are characters that can recover from almost anything, and there are characters that have completely terrible recoveries.
 

matt4300

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Hmmm i have never really felt that way about shield and ledges. I agree that they are a pretty big deal but not on par with character balance. Haveing character balance is just about the best thing a fighter can have... other than being fun to play, but PW fixed that with the hitstun codes >_>

^^ yeh please for the love of god make links ^B not suck ballz

EDIT: I do agree we should do most other codes before the balanceing wich would be last. but if we keep adding to the list we run the risk of not ever getting to the balanceing. I was just suggesting a thread for disscusion on the subject.


VVVV good point. i guess we dont really know how much each char (or only the ones that really need) it will take from the 256 lines
 

MookieRah

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I agree that they are a pretty big deal but not on par with character balance.
We have a limit on the amount of codes we can use. If it wasn't for that then we would probably have a character balance thread too, but we don't cause it's unlikely that we will be able to do much balancing.

Also, shields and ledges make a big difference. I would much rather have a finished Brawl+ than an unfinished one with some of the lower tiers slightly more playable.
 

plasmatorture

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Hmmm i have never really felt that way about shield and ledges. I agree that they are a pretty big deal but not on par with character balance. Haveing character balance is just about the best thing a fighter can have... other than being fun to play, but PW fixed that with the hitstun codes >_>

^^ yeh please for the love of god make links ^B not suck ballz
There are two different ways to balance Brawl: change the individual character's aspects, or change the rules of the game.

The former is nitpicky, the latter is widespread and causes other changes (like making it more fun) that are important and wanted as well. Plus, while each character needs balance, there needs to be a balance between offense and defense in the game that people enjoy for it to feel balanced.

I feel like character specific codes should be the last thing implemented. Considering how huge a buff Hitstun is for a lot of characters (Falcon, Yoshi, Sheik, etc.) and how a couple are nerfed by it (ie Dedede), I wonder how other codes will shake up the balance. None will be as big as hitstun, of course, but effort and time should go to the major game-changing codes before the nitpicky character fixes.
 

MookieRah

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Hey, don't forget fast falling before the apex of your jump.
I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure you always had to fast fall after the apex. I'm not sure how one would even code that given what Leafgreen has posted how jumping works in the gravity thread.

Either way it's definitely not necessary.
 

zxeon

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I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure you always had to fast fall after the apex. I'm not sure how one would even code that given what Leafgreen has posted how jumping works in the gravity thread.

Either way it's definitely not necessary.
How are you supposed to SHFFL if you are locked into your giant short hop? That code alone will speed the game up a lot.

Also I'm not familiar with this research on how the jump works in Brawl.
 
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