Hitstun/shield stun Thread

[matt4300]

>0< Im so happy with the way the disscusions are going now. Most everyone seems to be well within the range of the way i play and my friends think is fun (no tripping, 12% hitstun but i wouldnet mind 11 at all, melee air dodge, auto l cancel and brawl gravity) besides melee air dodge i agree with kupo15 in everyway.
Its not that i dont like BAD. I actually think that it is nessesary because of spammy projectiles (like that D3 GAW match chibo sempai posted where D3 coudlent get off the ledge from the **** skillet) anyway i just can't give up the wave dash its just so fun #_#.

to summarise keep up the good beta testing every one @_@ your doing Gods work!!!

EDIT: yeh i have tested falcons down throw Cg with a friend and all you have to do is di away from falcon even from the zero also, wow i love brawl plus so much NO D3 GANG **** CHAIN GRABS! or falco that is very good news. I had heard it before but i dident think it was final. I do on the other hand think that ice climber Cg are what makes them them and i hope they still have them even though i dont main them.

 

[kupo15]

Oh yeah, at 12% hit stun Falcon can seemingly chaingrab most characters with downthrow. I forgot to mention that before. He could literally chain characters across the stage and nair -> dair. Ironic, considering that Falco used to pull that kind stuff off in normal brawl.

Falcon cant CG anyone if they DI down and away at 12%....

 

[MookieRah]

I'm going to assume you already did all the testing for DI and whatnot to escape the CG at 12% hitstun.

Well, when I was doing it we weren't really trying to break the game. I think it's guaranteed on maybe a few people, and it works on a large portion of the cast, but I believe they can escape it by DI'ing up. The thing is, congrats, you just earned yourself a nair or uair combo fest! So yeah, it's pretty rough.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong as Kupo pointed out.

I don't know if it works at 10%, I'll check and see later on, but I doubt it.

 

[kupo15]

I think its posts like those where we question ppl and the Kish's ability to properly DI brawl attacks. lol Not DI in general, just DI related to brawls attacks

 

[Magus420]

I think its posts like those where we question ppl and the Kish's ability to properly DI brawl attacks. lol Not DI in general, just DI related to brawls attacks

Keep in mind that what is DIable with more stun may or may not be DIable with less stun. A hit with 12% stun might put you in a tumble while the same hit with 5% stun might not put you into a tumble, and thus not be trajectory DIable. Some combos will actually be more effective with less stun because of this.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think its posts like those where we question ppl and the Kish's ability to properly DI brawl attacks. lol Not DI in general, just DI related to brawls attacks

.....Has he not played melee?

Maybe he doesn't realize that there are two general types of Normal DI used (one for survival and one for breaking combos).

Half the stuff in melee stops working when people DI correctly (including the infamous Ken combo in most situations).

edit: Magus has a good point.

 

[kupo15]

Keep in mind that what is DIable with more stun may or may not be DIable with less stun. A hit with 12% stun might put you in a tumble while the same hit with 5% stun might not put you into a tumble, and thus not be trajectory DIable. Some combos will actually be more effective with less stun because of this.

.....Has he not played melee?

Maybe he doesn't realize that there are two general types of Normal DI used (one for survival and one for breaking combos).

Half the stuff in melee stops working when people DI correctly (including the infamous Ken combo in most situations).

edit: Magus has a good point.

I have played thanks and I know what DI is and the different kinds. If you can get CGed by falcon and say your DI is right, something is wrong when I don't see that in my game.

Good point Magus. That can be a good point as to why 12% might be better.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I have played thanks and I know what DI is and the different kinds. If you can get CGed by falcon and say your DI is right, something is wrong when I don't see that in my game.

Good point Magus. That can be a good point as to why 12% might be better.

I wasn't talking about you, I was suggesting why "Kish" might have had different results than you albeit in a slightly insulting manner so for that I apologize.

 

[kupo15]

I wasn't talking about you, I was suggesting why "Kish" might have had different results than you albeit in a slightly insulting manner so for that I apologize.

Oh man I feel dumb. Sorry for misreading...embarrassembarrassembarrass

Finals have me on edge a bit so sometimes I don't think straight lol

EDIT: Ill add this to lighten things up haha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jr_nDF3UNM

 

[Revven]

If I have any friends over tomorrow I'm going to be recording Brawl+ matches most definitely with 10% hitstun (and ALC, and no trpping, etc). With which I will upload to youtube over the weekend and into next week, they could then be used as reference for anything if necessary. At least... I hope I'm not posting this for nothing and no one comes over. D:

 

[Dan_X]

So wait... Magus brought up a good point. Oddly, I noticed that with the typical IC combo: Popo grab Dthrow to Nana Fair repeat this usually has to be done until about 40% (3 cycles) before one can enact the Ice Block Lock... with hitstun however I noticed that the characters would enter the tumble VERY early, after only 2 cycles... they fell on the ground at around 20-30% which is kinda lame if you ask me.

I'm using 13%. Do you think 11.5% or 12% will fix this? Also, at 10% is Falco's chaingrab still gone?

 

[Wind Owl]

... Can't the Fair be teched? I'm pretty sure the only chaingrab they have that truly leads into ice block is the footstool one.

 

[cAm8ooo]

You still have alt grabs. Isn't that pretty much all you need.

 

[MookieRah]

The falcon down throw thing can be DIed, but you can still do it at 10%. The thing is that if they DI up they can avoid it, but they eat nairs/uairs/usmash, if they constantly DI down and away you can up throw them instead and probably land an aerial in the confusion, and so forth. Basically it's a really awesome mixup.

 

[kupo15]

The falcon down throw thing can be DIed, but you can still do it at 10%. The thing is that if they DI up they can avoid it, but they eat nairs/uairs/usmash, if they constantly DI down and away you can up throw them instead and probably land an aerial in the confusion, and so forth. Basically it's a really awesome mixup.

Yup, its really neat. Well, if you can CG even once in 10% then I guess that 12% makes the DI stronger to avoid it which is better, right?

 

[Wind Owl]

The falcon down throw thing can be DIed, but you can still do it at 10%. The thing is that if they DI up they can avoid it, but they eat nairs/uairs/usmash, if they constantly DI down and away you can up throw them instead and probably land an aerial in the confusion, and so forth. Basically it's a really awesome mixup.

WTF it sounds like Melee

 

[Team Giza]

Sheik's f-tilt.

 

[Wind Owl]

Yeah, if we took out decay it would be escapable MUCH earlier.

 

[kupo15]

Yeah, if we took out decay it would be escapable MUCH earlier.

Would be nice. Can someone explain exactly whats different about the decay system from brawl and melee and also tell me what needs to be done? This way we can get a head start so I can PM PW quickly after we get the codes we requested...please respond in the code agenda thread...

 

[Wind Owl]

In Melee, damage is the only thing that decays. Knockback (in all Smash games) is measured based on your percentage AFTER the hit, so if you get hit by a move that does 30%, and you were at 0%, you would go the same amount of distance as if you were hit by a stale version of that move and took 26%, and were at 4% when you got hit by it.

In Brawl, even if you were at 4% and took 26% from the stale move, you would not go as far as if you were at 0% and took 30% damage from that same move.

SSB64 had the same system as Brawl, but it was much less drastic.

 

[kupo15]

In Melee, damage is the only thing that decays. Knockback (in all Smash games) is measured based on your percentage AFTER the hit, so if you get hit by a move that does 30%, and you were at 0%, you would go the same amount of distance as if you were hit by a stale version of that move and took 26%, and were at 4% when you got hit by it.

In Brawl, even if you were at 4% and took 26% from the stale move, you would not go as far as if you were at 0% and took 30% damage from that same move.

SSB64 had the same system as Brawl, but it was much less drastic.

Lame. Should be easy to remove...

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Training mode has no decay in attacks. You guys can use that to test your hitstun w/o attack decay.

 

[MookieRah]

Honestly having no decay makes combos harder to perform cause fully charged moves bat people away like crazy. I was thinking that perhaps having the knockback decay set somewhere in the middle, while leaving the damage decay alone, would be benefitial. Obviously we'd have to test where the best setting for knockback is, but I think it would make combos easier, and it would make combos at %'s consistent.

 

[Team Giza]

Sheik's f+tilt is still stupid even without decay.

 

[Wind Owl]

Maybe so, but without individual character nerfs (which would NOT go to Sheik first, mind you) I really don't see how else we can fix it.

 

[Alopex]

The only way to fix Sheik's Ftilt lock would be to create that other code that I believe many of us have been hoping for: DI'ing weak hits.

 

[Wind Owl]

Yes, there is that. I didn't mention it because it sounds absurdly hard to code.

Then again, the same can be said about MAD.

 

[Dan_X]

I don't think there should be a code to DI weak attacks... nor do I think Sheik's ftilt should be nerfed...

 

[Wind Owl]

... Why on Earth not?

 

[MuBa]

... Why on Earth not?

Cuz he secretly likes abusing it >_>




On a serious note I believe MetaKnight is going to become uber broken. So I'd like to propose an idea of specifically nerfing him by staling all of his moves so at least he'll truly be able to have a difficult time KOing.

I really think we're going to have to make a couple of character specific changes in order to prevent SOMEONE from getting broken regardless of ANY setting we try (For example, Sheik's F-tilt, just give it more knockback OR make it slower).

Now the problem I can see is the coding space...stupid 255 line limit.

 

[MookieRah]

Well I have a compelling reason enough not to get rid of Sheik's f-tilt lock! She isn't broken. In fact, she isn't considered top with it. With this setup everyone is getting more combos, but Sheik's combos don't really get improved much. Honestly, it makes Sheik worse overall. There is no reason to get rid of f-tilt locks other than it just annoying people, and that isn't worth wasting time and code over.

@Meta
Could we not make a code that could override the hitstun bonuses when the player chooses Meta?

 

[OmegaXXII]

I don't think there should be a code to DI weak attacks... nor do I think Sheik's ftilt should be nerfed...

And why shouldn't it be, Sheik's f-tilt is a much needed attack, and why shouldn't there be a code for DI'ing weak attacks, if anything they should be one for such a case.

 

[Deleted member]

Content removed to lighten my internet footprint.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Well I have a compelling reason enough not to get rid of Sheik's f-tilt lock! She isn't broken. In fact, she isn't considered top with it. With this setup everyone is getting more combos, but Sheik's combos don't really get improved much. Honestly, it makes Sheik worse overall. There is no reason to get rid of f-tilt locks other than it just annoying people, and that isn't worth wasting time and code over.

@Meta
Could we not make a code that could override the hitstun bonuses when the player chooses Meta?

The Ftilt "lock" is like 40-50 extra damage that only occurs when the enemy is already at around 20-40%... a 40-50 damage that sheik can definitely do with.. its not like she KOs at early percents.

and i like how we can call sheik a she now cuz shes got boobies and a ponytail

 

[matt4300]

since this is a hit stun thread i would really like to see someone talk about some other chars besides shiek, fox, falcon, MK, zamus, and marth >_> like for instance how much better mario got or how samus has a few ways to almost never miss the powershot. anybody? i know we havent agreed on a hitstun level but we are mostly floating around 10 to 12.5 im sure there are some combos that work well in that range.

EDIT: and wtf snake? come on

 

[MookieRah]

Mario gets A LOT better actually. My friend used to play Mario in melee, and he's busting out some melee mario stuff. Sadly though, Mario does pretty poorly against smaller chars, but I could see him being used effectively against the larger cast members. If only his recovery didn't suck. Honestly I'd make the launch power of his upB significantly increased if we have time to do character balancing at the end. He'd be a decent character with a good recovery.

Samus can also combo into charged shot. With the added stun her zairs put people into tumble as well, causing them to fall to the ground if you hit a grounded opponent. That doesn't sound like much, but the fact is it would be really hard to tech that, and she could follow up a zair into a charged shot cause peepz are vulnerable after they make a face plant.

The only thing significant with Snake that I know of hitstun wise is that his upsmash actually knocks people into the mortar. I'm not sure if you can DI it or not, you probably could but *shrug*. My group doesn't really use Snake so someone else will have to test that.

 

[matt4300]

^_^ I comend you MookieRah. This is the kinda stuff i want to hear from people that are much better than i am. knowing how it effects each char will get alot of people excited for it.Especially since alot of the low tiers were only low tier because they were combo-ers in a game with no combos. rather than complaining about lost chaingrabs (wich are kinda gay imo) we should be talking about how the chars ALL CHARS work and whats different about them in brawl +

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Mario gets A LOT better actually. My friend used to play Mario in melee, and he's busting out some melee mario stuff. Sadly though, Mario does pretty poorly against smaller chars, but I could see him being used effectively against the larger cast members. If only his recovery didn't suck. Honestly I'd make the launch power of his upB significantly increased if we have time to do character balancing at the end. He'd be a decent character with a good recovery.

Samus can also combo into charged shot. With the added stun her zairs put people into tumble as well, causing them to fall to the ground if you hit a grounded opponent. That doesn't sound like much, but the fact is it would be really hard to tech that, and she could follow up a zair into a charged shot cause peepz are vulnerable after they make a face plant.

The only thing significant with Snake that I know of hitstun wise is that his upsmash actually knocks people into the mortar. I'm not sure if you can DI it or not, you probably could but *shrug*. My group doesn't really use Snake so someone else will have to test that.

I noticed most of the things you've observed here due to my usage of hitstun over the past few days. A lot of characters have a bunch of neat tricks up their sleeves, mario specifically.. he can combo into fair sometimes.. his upair and uptilt are both combo starters.

What's interesting is that a lot of characters retain their old combos from melee and even some combos that were in n64.. like jiggly, mario and fox. kind of makes you wonder how brawl was designed to be initially, that and the fact that L-canceling was in the game prior to its release (reportedly at the american beta tests of the game). brawl was probably supposed to have all of this stuff in the first place but strapped of it at the last minute.

oh btw, at high percents, although Samus can combo from her zair to her charged shot, at lower percents, people can tech the stun from the zair. it's much safer to do it if they're in the air

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Well, with Snake, dtilt/ftilt/utilt combos into two more utilts at low percents. Ftilt in itself is pretty silly, and jab>ftilt>ftilt2 is legit, but is a link. Aside from that, don't get grabbed, and not much else has changed. He still KOs ******** well.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

the hitstun from grenades is a bit longer too, so he can take advantage of that as well.