Hitstun/shield stun Thread

[Wind Owl]

I would find it really amusing if she were top tier again just because of hitstun.

 

[Dan_X]

I would find it really amusing if she were top tier again just because of hitstun.

Honestly, I find it incredibly difficult for her not to be. It's 5am here, and I should really be in bed, but I'm compressing my video to a DIVx file, making it small enough for youtube though maintaining its quality. I may not have a chance to upload till tomorrow. I pull off some killer combos on Snake though...

My friend plays with KoreanDJ (famous Melee player), they go to the same school. Last week my friend came home, and we fought. I was surprised that his Snake had miraculously gotten so good. He was better at snake dashing than he ever was, and could snake dash on a dime. I was initially pissed because my ICs COULD NOT OVERCOME HIM, especially his rediculous incessant snake dashing. I tried Sheik but it was so much work, and I still lost-- though, on occasion I'd win as Sheik, it was just to friggen close all match. Playing with Falco, forget it, his Snake didn't stand much of a chance. He couldn't play his grenade spam game thanks to Falco's shine, and Falco can out spam Snake with his lasers, so needless to say, I swept him with Falco.

Today I played against him again, I failed to mention the addition of hitstun because I wanted to see if he noticed anything different (which he obviously did). Initially we played a few 4player matches, in which I targeted him... he said "Yeah, my control stick is broken" as he didn't know why he couldn't move after certain attacks. lol.

Anyway, I told him about the added hitstun... The video I'm uploading is our matches... Wait till you see the new and improved Sheik!

 

[Wind Owl]

Haha, of course I know KDJ.

I can't wait to see it :D

 

[Dan_X]

Haha, of course I know KDJ.

I can't wait to see it :D

Haha yeah. I was shocked when my friend told me who he plays smash with at school. My friend doesn't even know that Smash Boards exists... Here I am watching videos of tournaments, watching videos of players such as but not limited to KoreanDJ. Then I ask who he plays with at school, at the gamer's connection as they call it, and he randomly said KDJ. I was like.... excuse me? Wait, can you repeat that? ROFL. I was shocked, the world of competitive smash seems so distant from me, it sucks. I've never been to a tournament-- though I'd love to. Now the possibility for a local tournament will be even fewer and further between, as I'd want to pay Brawl+ not Brawl. oh well. I'll have that video up shortly, I realized I forgot to cut the song at the end of the video, and it added on a ton of time to the video. *facepalm*

 

[Wind Owl]

Play Melee D:

 

[Dan_X]

Play Melee D:

You know, the old me would have no problem with that. I love Brawl, I love the new characters, better graphics, new physics (albeit floaty). I like the fact that I can save replays... and I honestly like the game's fighting far more than I did Melee. For example, I have so much fun with the ICs chaingrabs in Brawl (though they were also present in Melee). I love Falco in Brawl, I love all of the spaceies, how they feel so different from one another. In addition, I love the way Sheik plays, but before Brawl+ I hated the fact that I felt as though I'd try so **** hard with her, and fail against certain top tier characters. So aggravating! I love her tether recovery, it's the best thing ever! I just love Brawl, and I love it excruciatingly more now thanks to the hacks. Seriously, anything that I hated about Brawl has now been undone with the hacks. Amazing. It's unique really, anything that is "bad" about Brawl can be undone, even if it hasn't been already. For example, one thing I absolutely downright hated about Brawl was the random tripping, thank God there's a hack that removes it. I truly never though I'd see the day when hacks would be written to change the game in the way that it has, I never dreamed it possible.

 

[Wind Owl]

Yeah, it is pretty cool that we can patch an otherwise broken game. It'll be interesting to see how balanced the final (without individual character tweaks) Brawl+ will be.

 

[Dan_X]

Yeah, it is pretty cool that we can patch an otherwise broken game. It'll be interesting to see how balanced the final (without individual character tweaks) Brawl+ will be.

Yeah, I can't wait!

EDIT:

The video is done!!!! Check it out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbdmWvXMY9Y

Shows some awesome Sheik comboing, and some decent Falco comboing.

Wind Owl / Kupo, can you link this video to your threads?

 

[MuBa]

Yeah, I can't wait!

EDIT:

The video is done!!!! Check it out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbdmWvXMY9Y

Shows some awesome Sheik comboing, and some decent Falco comboing.

Wind Owl / Kupo, can you link this video to your threads?

Good video and all but that Snake doesn't know how to DI =/

If a Level 9 CPU can escape my barrage of F-tilts then I'm sure he can too.

 

[Wind Owl]

Uh, if a CPU (or human) Snake is getting out of your tiltlock as Sheik, you're doing it wrong.

EDIT: After watching the video, the higher % ftilts he could have teched. Next time he misses a tech and you have full needles, just let them all go, throw another needle, and running Usmash his face off ^_^

ANYWAY, that was sick. Really exciting, I must say. The edgeguarding with Sheik vs Snake was fantastic-looking, and just generally tossing him around the stage. Too good.

 

[MuBa]

Uh, if a CPU (or human) Snake is getting out of your tiltlock as Sheik, you're doing it wrong.

Doing what wrong? Spamming F-tilt incorrectly or something? At higher pecentages the opponent gets knocked away. Now perhaps there may be a difference in hitstun from what he and I are using.

 

[Wind Owl]

Yeah, I thought you meant the actual tiltlock. I corrected myself =P

 

[Dan_X]

Uh, if a CPU (or human) Snake is getting out of your tiltlock as Sheik, you're doing it wrong.

EDIT: After watching the video, the higher % ftilts he could have teched. Next time he misses a tech and you have full needles, just let them all go, throw another needle, and running Usmash his face off ^_^

ANYWAY, that was sick. Really exciting, I must say. The edgeguarding with Sheik vs Snake was fantastic-looking, and just generally tossing him around the stage. Too good.

Thanks man! Yeah, it was a great match! I can't wait to play more later today!!

God Sheik is so much more fun to play now!

 

[kupo15]

Anything above 10% stun is too much. With 10% stun Falcon can string together nairs on Bowser across the length of FD and dair spike him, all being a legit training mode combo. This would never work against a human opponent worth his weight due to DI; however, that is plenty of hit stun to allow for effective combos. In fact, it may very well be too much.

Says the person who uses S canceling :D

I was fixing to say, I saw 13% hitstun and was like "okay that is just waiting for Snake infinite tilt lock."

Snake's tilt lock is nerfed. If he miss times it, then you can tech away which you couldnt do before

Wind Owl / Kupo, can you link this video to your threads?

sure thing. This is what I wanted ^_^ But I may replace it later since this wasnt an even a fair fight with you using hitstun well and him not as you mentioned lol
Im trying to compile a short list of videos that show off the respective stun levels very well

 

[MuBa]

Every character is so much more fun to play now O_O

Even the slowpoke Boswer can still hold on his own.

 

[Revven]

I'm having my friend Antz! over again tomorrow (hopefully) so, I'll try hitstun out with Auto L-Cancel and S-Canceling, no tripping, but no MAD.

 

[MookieRah2]

Says the person who uses S canceling :D

Yay, this is completely irrelevant to hitstun and a different subject entirely. This is known as Ad Hominem, which consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

Kupo, I'm well aware you don't like S-canceling, but regardless of your stance on that, 10% is more than enough. It might be fun to have all that stun, and if you are just playing for fun, more power to you! However, when I discuss things about the codes, I'm doing so from a competitive standpoint. I'm trying to find the best codes that would offer the most options, and skillful exchanges of players while at the same time not needlessly adding erroneous tech skill.

Too much hitstun would break the game. In fact, Meta might be too good with even 10% stun. The Kishes were telling me that with the Melee Air Dodge code and that much stun there is really no reliable way to get around him after he launches you. It's even worse on stages with platforms. The Kishes are guys that have been anti-ban consistently on the MK issue for normal Brawl, so it's not coming from a MK hating standpoint when they say MK is broke.

I'm asking them to start testing at 10% without melee air dodge. If that still doesn't fix the problem I told them to try 8% stun and 9% stun to see if that helps any. I'm not that great with MK and they are better able to test all of MK's abilities with the stun than I am.

 

[MBlaze]

Hmm... I'm testing again and I think that 13% might be perfect.. but then again 10% can be too. I really need to play some more people with 13% on so when I get back from my families today later tonight does anyone want to play? NO gravity mods by the way.

 

[Wind Owl]

I'm having my friend Antz! over again tomorrow (hopefully) so, I'll try hitstun out with Auto L-Cancel and S-Canceling, no tripping, but no MAD.

I never understood having both cancel codes. One of the things I like about S-canceling is that you have to know your aerials well enough to decide whether or not canceling is beneficial.

sure thing. This is what I wanted ^_^ But I may replace it later since this wasnt an even a fair fight with you using hitstun well and him not as you mentioned lol

As I understand, he didn't tell him during some 4-player FFAs, and then his friend knew about it during singles.

 

[MookieRah2]

I never understood having both cancel codes. One of the things I like about S-canceling is that you have to know your aerials well enough to decide whether or not canceling is beneficial.

That's because aerials that don't auto-cancel that are fast but not as fast as auto-canceling could be faster than S-canceling. It makes the moderately fast -> fast moves quicker than moves like Ganon and Ike's fair.

BTW, I'm editing the post to remove the mysterious nature of my source. It's just that recently someone was kicked out of the SBR for posting stuff going on in the SBR among other things, but apparently as long as you aren't putting words into the SBR's mouth and you aren't being a douche it's alright.

 

[Wind Owl]

That's because aerials that don't auto-cancel that are fast but not as fast as auto-canceling could be faster than S-canceling. It makes the moderately fast -> fast moves quicker than moves like Ganon and Ike's fair.

???
S-canceling offers constant lag to all aerials. Aerials have variable landing lag. Aerials with LESS landing lag aren't benefitted by S-canceling. I was saying how you'd have to know which ones those are.

Sorry, I just completely didn't understand what you're trying to say.

 

[MookieRah2]

S-canceling homogenizes all non auto-canceled aerials. I think giving the faster moves that aren't auto canceled the ability to be slightly faster than S-canceling is a plus and gives people more options.

 

[Dan_X]

Says the person who uses S canceling :D

Snake's tilt lock is nerfed. If he miss times it, then you can tech away which you couldnt do before

sure thing. This is what I wanted ^_^ But I may replace it later since this wasnt an even a fair fight with you using hitstun well and him not as you mentioned lol
Im trying to compile a short list of videos that show off the respective stun levels very well

He loves hitstun, so we'll have to practice. My other friend plays Lucario, he's yet to play much with hit stun, as he doesn't like it. Perhaps he'll see that it's great, and then we'll have more legit matches.

 

[Wind Owl]

S-canceling homogenizes all non auto-canceled aerials. I think giving the faster moves that aren't auto canceled the ability to be slightly faster than S-canceling is a plus and gives people more options.

Ah, ok. That makes sense.

 

[sagemoon]

playing with 20% hitsun is fun. =D

 

[kupo15]

Yay, this is completely irrelevant to hitstun and a different subject entirely. This is known as Ad Hominem, which consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

Kupo, I'm well aware you don't like S-canceling, but regardless of your stance on that, 10% is more than enough. It might be fun to have all that stun, and if you are just playing for fun, more power to you! However, when I discuss things about the codes, I'm doing so from a competitive standpoint. I'm trying to find the best codes that would offer the most options, and skillful exchanges of players while at the same time not needlessly adding erroneous tech skill.

Too much hitstun would break the game. In fact, Meta might be too good with even 10% stun. The Kishes were telling me that with the Melee Air Dodge code and that much stun there is really no reliable way to get around him after he launches you. It's even worse on stages with platforms. The Kishes are guys that have been anti-ban consistently on the MK issue for normal Brawl, so it's not coming from a MK hating standpoint when they say MK is broke.

I'm asking them to start testing at 10% without melee air dodge. If that still doesn't fix the problem I told them to try 8% stun and 9% stun to see if that helps any. I'm not that great with MK and they are better able to test all of MK's abilities with the stun than I am.

lol, I didn't mean to Ad Hominem because I thought that what I said was self explanatory. If you JC S canceled aerials, then you have less lag than L canceling and certain aerials are just less lag with the shield drop. I thought it was known that s canceling is faster than l canceling so I was implying that s canceling doesn't need as much stun as l canceling for this reason.

Serious question but do you use MAD? If you do, then you can WD out of shield after the aerial to follow up much faster than anyone can with l canceling. In both of these paragraphs, it would make sense as to why you think anything above 10% is too much.

However, when I discuss things about the codes, I'm doing so from a competitive standpoint. I'm trying to find the best codes that would offer the most options, and skillful exchanges of players while at the same time not needlessly adding erroneous tech skill.

Trust me. We are on the same page. I hate it when ppl assume that I am doing this "just for fun" though. Idk how much you kept up with things before, but you would see Im all for the competitive standpoint and whats best for competition. About the tech skill, thats why I was Pro auto l cancel.

 

[MookieRah2]

Serious question but do you use MAD? If you do, then you can WD out of shield after the aerial to follow up much faster than anyone can with l canceling. In both of these paragraphs, it would make sense as to why you think anything above 10% is too much.

I do use MAD; however, I haven't bothered learning much with wavedashing yet cause I was going to remove the spring in my L-trigger first, so I haven't really thought about S-canceling to wavedashing much cause I don't really use wavedashing much. That is some really neat insight though, cause it would allow for more combos and follow ups.

The reason I think 10% may be too much is the MetaKnight issue and the fact that there is significantly more stun than there was in melee, and there is potential that it could break other characters down the road. I don't know this for sure though, so that's why I'm still interested in testing it. I tried the 15% code, and it was seriously way too much. I don't think DI could save you with 15% in many cases, because there is so much stun that characters have time to run in and get you anyways. This removes the importance of DI and it tilts things far over to the offensive side.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I do use MAD; however, I haven't bothered learning much with wavedashing yet cause I was going to remove the spring in my L-trigger first, so I haven't really thought about S-canceling to wavedashing much cause I don't really use wavedashing much. That is some really neat insight though, cause it would allow for more combos and follow ups.

The reason I think 10% may be too much is the MetaKnight issue and the fact that there is significantly more stun than there was in melee, and there is potential that it could break other characters down the road. I don't know this for sure though, so that's why I'm still interested in testing it. I tried the 15% code, and it was seriously way too much. I don't think DI could save you with 15% in many cases, because there is so much stun that characters have time to run in and get you anyways. This removes the importance of DI and it tilts things far over to the offensive side.

I think it's pretty obvious that metaknight will be broken with the hitstun code, but so will everyone else. I don't see why we should lower the hitstun (which works with every other character just fine) just for metaknight. metaknight can sweet spot kill you with upB at 45%. i say screw him.

for the record, I use 13% hitstun, and it feels perfect.

 

[kupo15]

I do use MAD; however, I haven't bothered learning much with wavedashing yet cause I was going to remove the spring in my L-trigger first, so I haven't really thought about S-canceling to wavedashing much cause I don't really use wavedashing much. That is some really neat insight though, cause it would allow for more combos and follow ups.

The reason I think 10% may be too much is the MetaKnight issue and the fact that there is significantly more stun than there was in melee, and there is potential that it could break other characters down the road. I don't know this for sure though, so that's why I'm still interested in testing it. I tried the 15% code, and it was seriously way too much. I don't think DI could save you with 15% in many cases, because there is so much stun that characters have time to run in and get you anyways. This removes the importance of DI and it tilts things far over to the offensive side.

Yup. And with this extremely fast way to follow up after an aerial, I doubt that you even have to have hitstun be more than brawls natural stun. But I wouldnt know for sure.

Use Z for the wavedash. Its much easier.

Yea, from playing with 15% it does seem a little much but I shall see after I play with good opponents this weekend. I will try 13% also and experiment a bunch. I will also have vids ^_^

 

[wazgood]

approximately how much hitstun did ssb64 have?

 

[Yeroc]

Launch-someone-then-go-grab-a-soda-before-finishing-your-combo length stun, so like 20-25%.

 

[zxeon]

10% feels right to me. You have just enough time to start a combo but you'll lose it if you dawdle. I'll try 11% and 12%.

 

[MuBa]

Don't limit yourselves to just 1% increments...try it out in decimal points too.

Like 10.5% or something.

 

[Dan_X]

I think 13% is fine, I don't think I'm going to bother testing 10% again. From what I recall 10% lacked a smidgen of time that some characters could utilize. This is important. Thankfully you can DI so much that you can usually avoid most combos anyway. Good DI, will at the very least, escape some portion of the combo, as it's easy for the person comboing to mess up.

Also, for anyone who thought it was difficult to tech before (I know I personally would accidentally air dodge above the ground on occasion) it's easier to do with hitstun. Simply put, if you're stunned and are going to hit the ground, you can't mess up and air dodge, it just seems much easier to perform ukemi (tech)... teching can stop many combos depending on the scenario.

 

[Dan_X]

As I understand, he didn't tell him during some 4-player FFAs, and then his friend knew about it during singles.

Yup. That's right.

Sorry for double post!

 

[MBlaze]

Don't limit yourselves to just 1% increments...try it out in decimal points too.

Like 10.5% or something.

That could actually be a nice level of hitstun... we should test that.

 

[MuBa]

Marioblaze...do you even go on AIM? If so then I'd like to play online with ya.

 

[MBlaze]

Marioblaze...do you even go on AIM? If so then I'd like to play online with ya.

I have an AIM but never use it or my MSN anymore but just reply here or PM me for some games later. What do you want to play me in though, Brawl or Brawl+? Because we seem to differ on what we like in Brawl+ with gravity mods and crap..

 

[kupo15]

Also, for anyone who thought it was difficult to tech before (I know I personally would accidentally air dodge above the ground on occasion) it's easier to do with hitstun. Simply put, if you're stunned and are going to hit the ground, you can't mess up and air dodge, it just seems much easier to perform ukemi (tech)... teching can stop many combos depending on the scenario.

I understand, but there are a LOT of moves that just...BAM! your on the floor. Ill be playing with my group soon so we shall see how that goes. I like 13% right now, but I need to play with good ppl to be sure. 2 days away... ^_^

EDIT:

Can someone figure out what 16%-20% are and/or tell me how to figure it out?

 

[GameSystem]

Can someone figure out what 16%-20% are and/or tell me how to figure it out?

Brawl default hitstun is .4 so for 16% add .16 to it. So go to the float point to hex converter and type in .56 for 16% and .6 for 20%.