Hitstun/shield stun Thread

[Starscream]

I used heavy brawl as an extreme example. It shows that gravity does affect those things I mentioned which means that even though yours is much less, its still affects the things I mentioned. So not only does it mess with characters recovery a little, but its not a good idea to destroy all aerials that are auto canceled in a SH or FH.

I like how you dismissed my whole post because of that one part that proved that gravity affects things you said they didn't -_-

I never said gravity doesn't affect multi-jump jumps. It's pretty easy to assume that it will affect the height of every characters jumps. I went into to training with every multi-jump character and just stood in one spot and did all their jumps. None of them ever lost height or did not gain height from their previous jump. That's what I was trying to say. Pit's last jump will still send him higher than his previous jump, the gravity on 1.165 is not enough to gimp it. Same goes for the last jump on every other multi-jump character. The last jump itself is not as high as the previous jump but you will still gain extra height by using. You honestly think this will destroy Pit? It will be a little different at first but it's not going to ruin any character's recovery.

I don't know why or how Pit loses time on his Up+B in heavy Brawl. That makes absolutely no sense but I guess I was wrong. My batteries in my Wii mote are recharging so I can't really check right now anyways. Once again, it doesn't destroy his recovery as you seem to fear.

Several players want a lower short hop code so when that comes it's going to get rid of Ganon's thunderstomp anyways. Besides it's not like he's screwed, he'll just have to L-cancel or use the Auto L-cancel code. Same goes for Falcon's stomp. Snake can no longer full jump nair all hits but with L-cancel or auto l-cancel he has other options after the 3 hits (since they don't have a whole lot of knockback) such as ftilt, jab combo, utilt, grabbing, etc. With 1.165 gravity settings Marth actually has to properly time a short hop double fair now instead of throwing them out with ease. Most characters still have their old auto-canceled aerials, Luigi can still short hop double uair.

Short hops are the perfect height with this setting, and I've noticed that airdodge spamming is reduced since you won't just float effortlessly back to the stage. The game feels faster, more fluid and not so floaty. Ask anyone that has played with these settings extensively and they will agree with me. Don't be offput by the initial differences, you'll quickly get used to it and find the overall game more fun rather than worrying about little character specifics.

You can say it's a substitute for now, but it's also not guaranteed we'll see all the jump and falling changes MuBa proposed come to fruition. If they never happen I think this is the next best thing.

And I didn't address your other points because I didn't want to really continue this discussion. I mean this is the Hitstun thread afterall. >.>

 

[BrutalBrutal]

Faster falling is very likely to occur.

You can say it's a substitute for now, but it's also not guaranteed we'll see all the jump and falling changes MuBa proposed come to fruition. If they never happen I think this is the next best thing.

It should definitely be possible, and here's why:

There are already mechanisms in place in Brawl to universally increase jump height (due to the bunny hood's inclusion). Universally increasing jump height and increasing gravity by the same amount results in identical jump height but faster falling. Faster falling is therefore very likely to be implemented.

I'll poke around with my PAL Brawl once I get a USB gecko.

 

[SGX]

It should definitely be possible, and here's why:

There are already mechanisms in place in Brawl to universally increase jump height (due to the bunny hood's inclusion). Universally increasing jump height and increasing gravity by the same amount results in identical jump height but faster falling. Faster falling is therefore very likely to be implemented.

I'll poke around with my PAL Brawl once I get a USB gecko.

This is definitely the way to go.

Even with minor gravity mods, (1.125) Ganon can't even get ON the battlefield platforms in a single full hop.

 

[MuBa]

I'm glad people are liking my fast fall/shorter short hop idea.

And another issue I see with higher gravity is the inability to catch up to your opponent when they are in the air from a combo. Also I agree with what Starscream has mentioned about Ganon's Dair, Snake's Full Hop Nair...but there are other problems that I see, which is Sonic's recovery and his only and most reliable KO: Spring Uair gets nullified.

At least let's not **** what already gave these guys their approaches/kills originally in Brawl. (Dedede's and Falco's CGs are an exception though >_>)

 

[peachfvl]

i thought someone said 15% more hitstun is just like ssb64´s hitstun?
isnt that to much?

anyways how do i convert percentages in hexadecimal?

 

[The MC Clusky]

Any new vids with hitstun 2.0?

 

[Almas]

It's not really a %age. 'Normal' hitstun is the equivalent of 0.4 as a hex, and the value labelled +15% is 0.5, IIRC.

 

[MookieRah2]

@Starscream
No. Adjusting the gravity is not the answer. It affects everything that is vertical. It is not an answer, and I'm going to say it's not even a good substitute for a better solution later.

None of them ever lost height or did not gain height from their previous jump. That's what I was trying to say.

Try jumping off the stage, building up downward momentum, and then jumping. I'm sure you'll see a significant difference. Same goes true for Sonic and all the characters that have a physics based recovery, they don't seem that nerfed if you perform them on stage, but if you are trying to perform them off the stage they are incredibly nerfed.

I don't know why or how Pit loses time on his Up+B in heavy Brawl.

Because he doesn't instantly start flying. He has to build up his upward momentum. When he is heavier, it takes longer for him to actually gain height on his up+B, and thusly make it not nearly as good.

With 1.165 gravity settings Marth actually has to properly time a short hop double fair now instead of throwing them out with ease.

This doesn't matter. We aren't trying to make the game harder, we are trying to open up options. I really don't understand the crowd of people that simply want to make things harder for no apparent reason -_-.

You fail to mention that enhanced gravity means that vertical KO's are nerfed and horizontal KO's are buffed. You don't seem to realize the damage this has on many characters' recoveries in the long run.

Enhanced gravity causes more problems than it fixes, period.

 

[MBlaze]

^^^^^Seriously, he speaks the truth.

 

[kupo15]

I agree with two above ^^

Everyones auto canceling is messed up also. Ganon can't auto cancel his Dair in a SH, Pit can't auto cancel his Dair, Uair in a SH, Pika cant auto cancel Dair in a SH....etc

Pit's last jump will still send him higher than his previous jump, the gravity on 1.165 is not enough to gimp it. Same goes for the last jump on every other multi-jump character.

What? It most certainly does not. Pit's last jump is weaker than his first 3. If it is like this before, how can it possibly provide more height with gravity?

 

[MookieRah2]

Another thing, what's with all this talk of having just auto l-canceling or S-canceling? Use both. Seriously, it doesn't break the game in any sense, and it just gives you more defensive and offensive options.

 

[kupo15]

Another thing, what's with all this talk of having just auto l-canceling or S-canceling? Use both. Seriously, it doesn't break the game in any sense, and it just gives you more defensive and offensive options.

Well then, Auto l canceling would hardly be used because S canceling is the better option. All you do is hold shield and spam nonpunishable aerials all day. You get no lag from aerials plus the powershield comes up when you land. Image fighting a ganon spamming his strongest aerials without punishment.

Also, together it takes up more code space if code space is a problem. It will be for those who like MAD

 

[MookieRah2]

Well then, Auto l canceling would hardly be used because S canceling is the better option.

Then why not have auto l-canceling?
Also, it's not always the best. There are a few characters that have fast aerials that have slightly less lag than S-canceling.

All you do is hold shield and spam nonpunishable aerials all day.

You make that sound like it's broken when it's not XD.

Image fighting a ganon spamming his strongest aerials without punishment.

I play Ganon in Brawl+, and I play against my friend who is Ike. I also play against his Ike with Falcon and many other characters. It just isn't broken. They have plenty of other flaws that prevent them from being too good. They are still slow in the air and have a hard time following up anything.

S-canceling isn't as bad as some of the things I've discovered either. With the new hitstun, zairs knock your opponent down. So with Samus I will zair -> Charged shot. Unless they tech, they get blasted. Is that broke? NO! People can tech, and they will have to tech well if they want to win.

Brawl+, even with all this stuff, is still waaaay more forgiving than Melee was. Simple S-canceled Ganon fairs won't cut it, you'll have to be way smarter than spam to do well.

 

[kupo15]

Then why not have auto l-canceling?
Also, it's not always the best. There are a few characters that have fast aerials that have slightly less lag than S-canceling.

You make that sound like it's broken when it's not XD.

How does the speed of the aerial matter with S canceling? The shield comes up canceling all lag the moment you land and your powershield comes up when you land also. The only defense would be dodging or shield grabbing. But when you dodge it, they are not stuck in any lag to punish since they can either
Aerial>dodge
Aerial>grab
Aerial>JC the shield to Aerial

The only lag you get is the shield drop if you chose to do so. Other than that, you can JC the shield with more aerials

I do play with auto l canceling and I think its better.

I play Ganon in Brawl+, and I play against my friend who is Ike. I also play against his Ike with Falcon and many other characters. It just isn't broken. They have plenty of other flaws that prevent them from being too good. They are still slow in the air and have a hard time following up anything.

S-canceling isn't as bad as some of the things I've discovered either. With the new hitstun, zairs knock your opponent down. So with Samus I will zair -> Charged shot. Unless they tech, they get blasted. Is that broke? NO! People can tech, and they will have to tech well.

Brawl+, even with all this stuff, is still waaaay more forgiving than Melee was. Simple S-canceled Ganon fairs won't cut it, you'll have to be way smarter than spam to do well.

No there is no excuse for missing techs so Zair forced techs of course is not broken. But whats the point in having weak aerials instead of strong aerials when the strong aerials have just as much lag as the weak ones?

And of course you need smart spamming. When I refer to spamming, I dont mean reckless spamming.

 

[Wind Owl]

With the new hitstun, zairs knock your opponent down. So with Samus I will zair -> Charged shot. Unless they tech, they get blasted. Is that broke? NO! People can tech, and they will have to tech well if they want to win.

Oh, nice. Samus needed that kind of boost. I would imagine Link could do something similar (missed tech -> arrow/boomerang reset -> DACUS?)

 

[MookieRah2]

Somehow that last edit exploded or something, thankfully I have the back button.

How does the speed of the aerial matter with S canceling?

Because some people's auto l-canceled attacks are faster than S-canceling. Yeah, there is no lag with S-canceling but it forces you into a shield. If you choose to do an auto l-canceled aerial, it may have lag in which you are vulnerable, but it's overall a tad faster, so you can go on the offensive a little bit quicker.

The only defense would be dodging or shield grabbing.

Wow... That statement man. Have you played Melee competitively?

You know, you could intercept their laggy aerial in the air with a faster move, avoiding the move altogether, and all sorts of other stuff. Be creative? Play better? Adapt maybe?

Oh, nice. Samus needed that kind of boost. I would imagine Link could do something similar (missed tech -> arrow/boomerang reset -> DACUS?)

I haven't tested Link's aerials to see if they knocked you down, but his zair does knock people down. You can follow it up with dash attack or ftilt pretty easily.

It seems like you are suggesting that Ganon, D3, Ike, and possibly Snake, are now overpowered due to S-canceling. Am I right in this assumption?

No there is no excuse for missing techs so Zair forced techs of course is not broken. But whats the point in having weak aerials instead of strong aerials when the strong aerials have just as much lag as the weak ones?

Because people with fast aerials are faster in other aspects. Ganon and Ike still can't combo very well cause of their power knocking them too far away and their speed. Fast characters can string moves together to make up for that gap, and that is pretty consistent across the board for all of the faster characters.

And of course you need smart spamming. When I refer to spamming, I dont mean reckless spamming.

That in itself is not broken though. Ganon's fair isn't so powerful that it makes him broke. His recovery his still garbage, his moves don't string together well, and the fair itself isn't that devastating. It's powerful, but it's trajectory is up and away AND it has a good amount of startup lag. Ganon fairs just aren't that scary with good DI.

 

[kupo15]

Wow... That statement man. Have you played Melee competitively?

You know, you could intercept their laggy aerial in the air with a faster move, avoiding the move altogether, and all sorts of other stuff. Be creative? Play better? Adapt maybe?
.

Yes I have and still play melee competitively thanks! I love it how ppl twist my words or purposely (so it seems) misinterpret what Im saying that allows them to make statements like "have you even played melee competitively?" like Im some noob who likes brawl because its "easy" and doesn't know smash history and stuff

Of course those options are available but the situation where the punishment I am referring to is the landing lag of the aerials or if you shield.

It seems like your turning my argument into a strawman.

It may not be "broken" persay but I think its a tad overpowered now and when we have shield stun...yea....

 

[Starscream]

I agree with two above ^^

Everyones auto canceling is messed up also. Ganon can't auto cancel his Dair in a SH, Pit can't auto cancel his Dair, Uair in a SH, Pika cant auto cancel Dair in a SH....etc



What? It most certainly does not. Pit's last jump is weaker than his first 3. If it is like this before, how can it possibly provide more height with gravity?

Several people want shorter shot hops. Maybe they aren't as outspoken as the 5-10 people that post in this thread regularly but they're out there. It's going to ruin Ganon's thunderstomp and all of those character's auto cancels. But they aren't doomed, just L-cancel. It doesn't ruin the characters, it just makes players have to change their strategies a bit.

And okay, I didn't explain it as well. Pit's last jump is weaker than his first 3 but he still gains height as opposed to not gaining height at all from his third jump. It's just not as strong as his first 3 jumps and in no way does it ruin Pit. Nor does the tiny amount of time lost from gaining upward momentum with his Up+B. Same goes for your Meta Knight example earlier, his last jump won't be as strong as the one before but it's not like he'll use his last jump and stay at the same height that his previous jump brought him to. He'll still gain height.

Point taken with Marth having to properly time his double fairs.

People that play with gravity settings use damage ratio settings to offset the gravity. Most use 1.0625 and without going into specifics it "feels" right. People don't die too early, people don't live to ridiculous percentages unless they have amazing DI and unstale moves will pack a punch. And it doesn't destroy recoveries it only makes them a bit worse but that goes for every character.

If you don't like it fine but it seems like people haven't even given it a chance or the ones that have haven't played with it for very long. It's not going to kill you to try it and you might like it if you just give it a chance (for more than a couple matches). Once again, ask the people that do play with these settings and they'll tell you that the game feels faster, more fluid and more fun. I know Leafgreen386 uses gravity settings, he was one of the main experimenters in the gravity thread. Ask him if you'd like.

If you guys really want to discuss this that much then why not post in the gravity discussion thread? I deliberately tried to avoid derailing this thread from hitstun discussion before and yet this keeps coming back. That is unless you peeps don't mind the derailing... >.<

 

[MookieRah2]

like Im some noob who likes brawl because its "easy" and doesn't know smash history and stuff

Well Ganon's fair spam is nothing crazy compared to the shield pressure options you had in Melee. Drillshines, Falon's jabs to knees, and many other things.

S-canceling makes laggy moves way faster than laggy moves in melee, but then again sheild stun in brawl is much less. S-canceling raises the offensive options to match closely with the existing defensive options. I would say that Brawl is still more defensive than Melee, but not overly so like normal Brawl is.

It seems like your turning my argument into a strawman.

The only strawman was my comment asking whether or not you played competitive melee, and that itself was said because if you played competitive melee then I'd wonder why you would think that Ganon's fair in brawl is overpowered, because it has much less shield pressure than many things in melee, and the stuff in melee wasn't overpowered. *breathes*

It may not be "broken" persay but I think its a tad overpowered now and when we have shield stun...yea....

I don't know if we should have shield stun. Again, Brawl+ is already awesome with what we do have. Our goal wasn't to turn this into Melee with Brawl characters, and honestly there is limits to what we can do with the code. As is, the offensive options are on par with defensive options.

Also, more shield stun would surely have negative effects. I'm scared of MK's tornado as is, just the idea of it shield locking me... ouch.

Several people want shorter shot hops. Maybe they aren't as outspoken as the 5-10 people that post in this thread regularly but they're out there. It's going to ruin Ganon's thunderstomp and all of those character's auto cancels. But they aren't doomed, just L-cancel. It doesn't ruin the characters, it just makes players have to change their strategies a bit.

Shorter hops might not be bad. I know a lot of characters could use a shorter short hop, but not every character would need it and we'd just have to see if the pros outweigh the cons. And yeah, Ganon without thunderstomp isn's a big deal with hitstun. There is so much stun on the stomp that you can follow up with another aerial if they aren't sent too high in most situations. Fox's drill is in a similar boat.

People that play with gravity settings use damage ratio settings to offset the gravity.

You are fixing a problem with a fix that causes more problems though. Not to mention that it still doesn't fix the problems of gravity! Recoveries, jumps, vert KOs are still nerfed with the damage ratio change. It's also very likely that the damage ratio change would cause even more problems than it fixes.

If you guys really want to discuss this that much then why not post in the gravity discussion thread?

My bad, I just saw the post you made and debated it. I've derailed the thread into an S-canceling discussion now, and nobody seems to care though.

 

[zxeon]

Metaknight's mach tornado does a bunch of hits at low damage that cause no knockback (except for the last hit). I am not worried at all about it's shield pressuring abilities. It will probably have about the same shield pressuring ability it has now due to the nature of the move.

 

[SketchHurricane]

I don't know if we should have shield stun. Again, Brawl+ is already awesome with what we do have. Our goal wasn't to turn this into Melee with Brawl characters, and honestly there is limits to what we can do with the code. As is, the offensive options are on par with defensive options.

You're right about putting offense on par with defense, but IMO a compromise from both sides should be had, instead of one side meeting the other. In the case of S-canceling, you're bringing offense to somewhat of an extreme to meet defense, whereas something like auto L-cancel + shield stun (if we ever get it) would be more of a compromise between both sides.

S-canceling just seems like breaking something to fix another to me. I put it in the same boat as adding gravity to fix air speed then upping damage to compensate. A game of "brokens" can certainly still be played competitively (see MVC2), but It's far from ideal. I will reiterate that I'm not craping on S-canceling and gravity, but it's seems fairly obvious that they are incomplete answers to what we want to achieve.

 

[MookieRah2]

Metaknight's mach tornado does a bunch of hits at low damage that cause no knockback (except for the last hit). I am not worried at all about it's shield pressuring abilities.

I'm not talking about knockback, I was talking about shield stun. If you increase shield stun universally it could screw things up big time, and it's very possible that MK's tornado could shield lock someone. Possibly Fox's drill as well.

whereas something like auto L-cancel + shield stun (if we ever get it) would be more of a compromise between both sides.

Well S-canceling doesn't break the game, but increasing shield stun carries a lot of implications with it too. Having offense meet the defense was the entire point, and by using S-canceling we meet it without having to tamper as much as we would if we increased shield stun and went auto l-cancel.

S-canceling just seems like breaking something to fix another to me.

What does it break? Give me specific details. Honestly, you are basing that off of feelings. Really, I'm not 100% convinced either, but from my testing with the big slow characters, they are far from OP with shield canceling. Adjusting Shield stun is a much, much bigger can of worms, and would be yet another thing that would require a vast amount of testing and would still be very hard to pick the specific amount that is ideal.

I will reiterate that I'm not craping on S-canceling and gravity, but it's seems fairly obvious that they are incomplete answers to what we want to achieve.

Explain why S-canceling is an "incomplete answer." Say what you will about gravity, but as it stands your opinion on S-canceling seems to be feeling based.

I'm beginning to think you guys are getting carried away with these codes. Honestly, all we need now at this point would be faller fast falls (excellent idea, props to who thought it up) and a real dash dance code. Everything else is working very well.

 

[Starscream]

Shorter hops might not be bad. I know a lot of characters could use a shorter short hop, but not every character would need it and we'd just have to see if the pros outweigh the cons. And yeah, Ganon without thunderstomp isn's a big deal with hitstun. There is so much stun on the stomp that you can follow up with another aerial if they aren't sent too high in most situations. Fox's drill is in a similar boat.

Yeah I guess we will have to see if such a code ever comes but 1.165 gravity settings is sort of like a preview of what characters with shorter short hops can do. It's pretty nifty. I suggest trying it at least for that.

You are fixing a problem with a fix that causes more problems though. Not to mention that it still doesn't fix the problems of gravity! Recoveries, jumps, vert KOs are still nerfed with the damage ratio change. It's also very likely that the damage ratio change would cause even more problems than it fixes.

You're right, there is nothing damage ratio can do to fix the nerf in recoveries or jumps. I don't think the nerf in jumps and recoveries is breaking any characters anyways. That's personal preference. But what damage ratio does do is fix the nerf in vertical KOs. That's why it's used in the first place. To quote some numbers from the gravity thread...

Fox's U-smash KO's Bowser at 109%, Mario at 96%, and Jigglypuff at 76%. (still quite a bit)

In comparison, 1.1 Fox can kill Bowser before 100% (I think it was about 85 -90%). I never tried it against Jiggly, but you gotta know that it was a low percent.

This was tested in training mode on Final Destination without move reduction.

And I believe this is with 1.175 gravity settings and 1.0625 damage settings. Not a huge difference from 1.165. All I can say it try it and see for yourself. You might like it.

My bad, I just saw the post you made and debated it. I've derailed the thread into an S-canceling discussion now, and nobody seems to care though.

Yeah doesn't seem like anybody really cares anyways. But if you do want to continue the discussion I really don't mind, it just might be a better idea to take it to the appropriate thread. But then again, I don't see much discussion of different hitstun percentages going on anyways. And we are already on the subject...

Also you gotta stop worrying about things that could happen such as shield locks with shield stun. That's why we experiment and try new things. If they don't work we don't use them. But speculating and "what ifs" doesn't do a whole lot but stimulate possible fears of things being broken.

 

[zxeon]

Since it does low damage and knockback it stands to reason that it wont deal out much shield stun too.

 

[Wind Owl]

It seems like you are suggesting that Ganon, D3, Ike, and possibly Snake, are now overpowered due to S-canceling. Am I right in this assumption?

??????
Are you referring to me?

 

[MookieRah2]

Are you referring to me?

Nope, I was referring to Kupo. I wasn't sure if that was what he was suggesting or not, so I asked :-P.

Since it does low damage and knockback it stands to reason that it wont deal out much shield stun too.

Yeah, you have a point, maybe I did jump the gun a bit on the shield stun thing, but really, S-canceling is far from broke really, and I don't see a need to adjust another element of the game when everything plays out nicely with the offensive/defensive options.

Let me put it this way, everyone is up in arms cause of the less lag for big characters. Let me break down a few things about them.

The only heavy hitter that could follow up with a quick attack upon landing is Snake and Ike. Snake's aerials just aren't great EVEN with S-canceling, so that isn't a huge issue as he is still going to be mostly about his excellent ground game. Ike's fair has a tendency to bat a shielded opponent away to the point that he cannot even connect with his fast jab combos.. Bowser's jabs are decently fast as well, but they aren't that threatening either. Charizard I think is a tad slower than Bowser. D3, Ganon, and DK certainly don't have attacks fast enough to thwart a person planning to shield grab them.

The only heavy hitter that can follow up their heavy attacks with consistent grabs is D3, and even that is really not overpowered because situations in the game like that already exist, such as Warios bite and Bowsers claw. If you are aware that they plan to do it you'll just have to think a bit more. Charizard could probably follow up a close fair with a grab as well, but it's not nearly as effective as D3.

None of the heavy hitters can chain many moves together, and it's virtually impossible to combo anything at decent percent with them because of their knockback and speed.

Most if not all of the heavy hitters moves, while powerful, have very bad KO trajectories. Most hit up and away. With DI, it's really not that bad.

On the other end of the spectrum you have the faster characters. Now they have only slightly better lag, if better lag, than the slow guys, but almost all of them have considerably faster jabs and tilts than the heavy hitters.

They all tend to be able to string moves together much easier as well.

Their aerials don't have nearly as much startup lag, so you can intercept the heavy hitters slow powerful aerials since they will now toss them out at you more often.

Why is S-canceling considered overpowered again?

 

[sagemoon]

GW has a pretty broken shield pressure with s-cancel. That's the only argument I have really. both his dair and fair become extremely spamable. along with already spamable ground attacks.

 

[Yeroc]

I got beat out...

 

[kupo15]

Sorry for the long post. I had to catch up

I know Leafgreen386 uses gravity settings, he was one of the main experimenters in the gravity thread. Ask him if you'd like.

Im pretty sure he is against it now but I was talking to several ppl. So we'll see when he comes back

If you guys really want to discuss this that much then why not post in the gravity discussion thread? I deliberately tried to avoid derailing this thread from hitstun discussion before and yet this keeps coming back. That is unless you peeps don't mind the derailing... >.<

I guess we should but it wouldn't be a brawl+ thread without discussing every topic about brawl+ lol. It doesn't matter to me atm. if you make one, sure we can go there.

The only strawman was my comment asking whether or not you played competitive melee, and that itself was said because if you played competitive melee then I'd wonder why you would think that Ganon's fair in brawl is overpowered, because it has much less shield pressure than many things in melee, and the stuff in melee wasn't overpowered. *breathes*

I didn't say it was "overpowered" I said S canceling lets ppl spam "their most powerful attacks" I made no melee reference

I don't know if we should have shield stun. Again, Brawl+ is already awesome with what we do have. Our goal wasn't to turn this into Melee with Brawl characters, and honestly there is limits to what we can do with the code. As is, the offensive options are on par with defensive options.

Also, more shield stun would surely have negative effects. I'm scared of MK's tornado as is, just the idea of it shield locking me... ouch.

Shield stun won't turn this into melee because its been there since 64! Wavedashing turns this game into melee and if ppl don't want brawl+ to be melee, why are you playing with wavedashing!? It annoys me because you are the nth person to make the statement "were are not trying to make brawl+ melee" when describing a smash feature! A mechanic that is apart of smash which includes but not limits melee. It annoys me how ppl make the same claim to argue against essential things like shield stun but argue for wavedashing. It makes no sense *breathes*

If you don't play with MAD, you should have no problem with code lines. I haven't even broken 100 lines.

Why are you afraid of MK's shield pressure when you were ok with Fox's shield pressure in melee? Its not that bad. You can't tornado spam until the shield breaks because that would be too much shield stun. I know ppl are cautious about adding things that might break the game, but most of the things I see ppl claiming to be broken (like mk or Gaw with shield stun) will not. I don't think its any worse than pillaring in melee or falco double lasers and stuff. Ppl seem to be over cautious.

I'm not talking about knockback, I was talking about shield stun. If you increase shield stun universally it could screw things up big time, and it's very possible that MK's tornado could shield lock someone. Possibly Fox's drill as well.

Mks wont shield lock because its a shield poke move that it will knock you out of your shield at a certain point. Fox's drill might put you shield lock but its just one character. Also, just dont shield that move. 64 had many shield lock>shield break combos which you saw occasionally, but it wasnt that much of a problem because ppl generally didn't shield for fear of a shield break. And if you afraid that Fox's drill will cause shield lock with l canceling, it will be shield lock with s canceling when you have no lag to start another one.

What does it break? Give me specific details

Character balance. The hard hitter's moves are laggier for a reason and by taking away the lag, the character can act differently than he was designed to be

Also you gotta stop worrying about things that could happen such as shield locks with shield stun. That's why we experiment and try new things. If they don't work we don't use them. But speculating and "what ifs" doesn't do a whole lot but stimulate possible fears of things being broken.

QFT

None of the heavy hitters can chain many moves together, and it's virtually impossible to combo anything at decent percent with them because of their knockback and speed.

I find this completely untrue. Ganon has some excellent combos thanks to his flame choke. Have you seen this vid? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEgnGTG68gc&feature=email Ganon can do that plus more since we have more hitstun than before. Ganon is an excellent character and has nice combos and stuff. This also depends on how much hit stun you put. I like brawl grav + 3F0CCCCD (15%)

Their aerials don't have nearly as much startup lag, so you can intercept the heavy hitters slow powerful aerials since they will now toss them out at you more often.

Yes this is a possibility but you wont find good players who play heavy hitters make this mistake often. I play against an excellent Ganon player that Im sure will change your mind really quickly.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Well S-canceling doesn't break the game, but increasing shield stun carries a lot of implications with it too. Having offense meet the defense was the entire point, and by using S-canceling we meet it without having to tamper as much as we would if we increased shield stun and went auto l-cancel.

True, but my compromise point still stands. Shield stun is no guarantee, and less tamper is generally good, but shield stun is very worthy of a look and could turn out great.

What does it break? Give me specific details. Honestly, you are basing that off of feelings. Really, I'm not 100% convinced either, but from my testing with the big slow characters, they are far from OP with shield canceling. Adjusting Shield stun is a much, much bigger can of worms, and would be yet another thing that would require a vast amount of testing and would still be very hard to pick the specific amount that is ideal.

Seriously, just think about it for a second...no lag on aerials...zero lag...tell me that doesn't sound like overkill. Now believe me, I still realize that you are bringing offense to the extreme to meet defense, and I'm still not saying this doesn't work, but it still falls short of the ideal of balance, which would be bringing both offense and defense to a middle ground.

But you want specifics. Take Ike's fair - IMO this is a great example of a balanced move. When properly spaced at the tip, this move is strong and safe with it's great range - you can give someone quite a hard time on FD with repeated well-spaced fairs. It's obviously balanced by it's landing lag, which makes it punishable when telegraphed.

With S-cancel, I can stand in one spot as Ike and short hop fair all day with little fear of punishment. If my reaction time is good enough, I can escape retaliation the instant this wall of sword is bypassed, get clear and repeat. And that's just noob crap. If we throw in full hopped, double jumped, and fast falled fairs as a mixup, what we now have is a one-move army here, people. The fact that all landing lag is gone from this move makes it way too good IMO. And that's not even considering Ike's jab combo, which is already his saving grace, becoming instantly usable upon landing.

Bottom line is that strong moves are balanced due to their lag. Take the lag away, and well...just look at Ganon's thunderstomp. That move just happened to fall under auto-cancelability, and instantly became spammable on the ground because of it. Would you dare be that liberal with Ganon's dair if there were no such thing as auto-canceling? I rest my case. I only talked about two moves...it's already a wall of text, so I'll stop.

Explain why S-canceling is an "incomplete answer." Say what you will about gravity, but as it stands your opinion on S-canceling seems to be feeling based.

I call it incomplete simply because it brashly does away with one aspect of the game (landing lag) to deal with another (overpowered shield). It seems obvious that while tinkering with finding the L-cancel code, the author suddenly realized he could remove all lag, so he did. He didn't stop to consider what it would do to gameplay. We knew what L-canceling would do, because we've had it before. We know what shield stun will do because we have examples, not to mention debated it to death. Bottom line is that S-canceling is incomplete because it is completely new and we haven't explored all the options yet. The other codes might be incomplete as well, but their concepts are complete because they are all based off of previous example, whereas S-cancel is not. Not saying it won't end up being the solution, just saying it's not yet the answer.

 

[zxeon]

Good lord that was a long post!

 

[kupo15]

I agree. I think that upping the offense like this to compensate for the overpowered defense (shields) is not the right path. It is obvious that shields are overpowered and it doesn't really matter how powerful you make the offense, camping with shield grabs will still prevail if your really good at it because of how powerful it is. So the obvious thing to do would be to nerf the shields. Its a simple solution that doesn't add implications to the game by changing properties of moves.

Im confident that we will get in a couple of weeks and we shall try it. It was balance in melee and worked and I don't see how it wont work in brawl if we balance it correctly

 

[metaXzero]

SketchHurricane. You would get ***** if you spammed Ike's F-air like that. It still has some start-up and it can't lead into anything else. It's not OPed. Same for Ganny's attacks. No Heavy suddenly becomes god.

 

[kupo15]

But their moves become harder to punish which I dont think is intended for their character.

 

[Shell]

Nothing any of the hacks are doing is "intended for their character."

Friends, I have been playing with s-canceling for a week or so now, and I can attest to MookieRah's statement that it is far from broken.

Ike, for example. He's far from the best character in the game. Having a more usable Fair doesn't suddenly overshadow his list of flaws. Furthermore, your Ike example would have a stale Fair rather quickly.

As for Ganon's Fair, I've found that s-canceling can often cut off the hitbox from appearing near the ground where it is needed in a SHFFL. And, as MookieRah mentioned, he no longer has a (quick) jab or any sort of follow-up for it.

Finally, how many hours have those of you that think S-canceling is broken actually used it?

 

[Yeroc]

None of this is intended for any of the characters in the first place. >_>

We're looking for the simplest way to make the most useful changes for the betterment of the game, from a competitive standpoint. Frankly, while a sheild stun code might bring the game more in line with what you are envisioning in terms of rebalancing or addressing any other number of issues, I'm looking at the game as it is with S-canceling and see a perfectly acceptable means to an end already. Just because it's not the solution you were looking for doesn't mean it's not a solution.

 

[kupo15]

Thats true, even though both technically "work", I feel that shield stun is better for the rebalance of the game. But we won't know until the shield stun code comes out.

What I ment by "intended for the character" was, melee introduced l canceling which half lagged instead of 0 lag. Even though you could shorten the lag, the heavier attacks still had more lag than the not so heavy attacks which was balanced. IMO It should be this way because heavy hits should have longer recovery time than not so heavy due to how powerful they are.

But with s canceling, you are giving heavy attacks no lag which makes heavy hitters much faster. It should heavy and slow, not heavy and fast IMO.

And don't you agree that increasing the offensiveness of the game doesn't improve aggressive play when the defense still beats the offense? You can add all of the hitstun and lag free attacks you want but if defending by camping and shield grabbing is so powerful as to easily shut down the offense, then the games will remain campy since being aggressive is not the best choice in getting the first hit. So if you keep the offensive game where it is instead of adding to it (s cancel) and nerf the defense (shields) then aggressive play will be more common since shielding is not the best option.

Dont look so far into this as to say "reckless aggression never works" or that we should "completely nerf the shields" It should be balanced like melee was balanced. Assume everything at the highest form of play where ppl excel at camping and stuff...just avoiding a flame war over wrong assumptions.

 

[Shell]

I certainly agree with your preference for a middle ground. My point is merely that playing with s-canceling isn't by any means game-breaking.


Edit: Developer intents aside, what are your opinions on ssb64's 0-lag arials?

 

[kupo15]

I certainly agree with your preference for a middle ground. My point is merely that playing with s-canceling isn't by any means game-breaking.

Your right. I don't think broken, but its a little overpowered and it feels like brawl on steroids

EDIT: I really don't have an opinion atm. I think it worked for that game but im not sure about brawl. Id say if you want z canceling back, then it would have to be manually done. This doesnt exactly go against my views about auto vs man l canceling because I said that im fine with man l canceling if it was consistent with a better timing. Seeing that no one has z canceling programmed into their moves, everyone would be z canceling all the time.

 

[FAILchion-]

Imo, 13-14% is the BEST option for hitstun. Although, it may be just me, but I've been noticing that 14% tends to take away the double jump frequently, when it's not supposed to do that.