Got a question! Sheik Q&A & FAQ

[J4pu]

what has more kill potential (knockback)? fair or sweetspot Nair

 

[-Mars-]

Nair is more powerful but fair can send your opponent at a downward angle........nair has more outright kill power though.

 

[saviorslegacy]

what has more kill potential (knockback)? fair or sweetspot Nair

Usually you can kill at 120ish% with Nair when gimping or after comboing a foe to the ledge.
Fair can actually semi spike. The second from the last hit box does this.

I prefer to decay my Fair and use Nair for cross ups.
For killing you want to use USmash.
Sheik gets the foe to high percents rather quickly because she has true combo's.
Abuse that and you will be able to kill in no time.

 

[Browny]

Guess I should let you guys know...

I was testing a new method to determine the disjoints of attacks, [here] and for my first run through of attacks I decided to test a few aerials I know have some confusion about the disjoint, Sonic, Sheik and ZSS bair.

Simply, this is it

The disjoint should be considered as the centre of both of those vertical lines. the max range of the attack was done using this
http://i46.tinypic.com/ibhy10.jpg

And as I have multiple pictures giving me an average of snakes utilt range, I feel fine about using it as a safe reference value. This was taken 1 frame after the labelled screenshot, showing it did connect from that far away
http://i50.tinypic.com/30mad86.jpg

so yeah... make of that what you will. Im not saying its 100% accurate, but its almost as close as I can possibly measure it.

 

[saviorslegacy]

See, I told you guys bit nooooooo. Y'all are literally genius's and already have everything figured out. -_-

Would you do Sheiks u-tilt as well.
If you want to I also want to see DSmash.

 

[Browny]

ground vs ground moves are extremely difficult due to the fact that nearly everything clashes with utilt if the attacks come out at the same time. The only method I've found so far involves using super armour frames and how close you can get to attacks like warios fsmash, make him take damage, but not take any yourself. With most SA moves not having much range at all, or SA frames before the actual hitbox is extended, it makes it near impossible using a screenshot method >_<

course you could try dsmashing a smart bomb or something, but good luck getting the frames perfect on that and measuring exactly the hitbox of the bomb, it may not be tied to the animation 100%

so in short, no I cant test those moves. and testing other aerials takes a long time, I wont be doing more on request for now.

 

[saviorslegacy]

ground vs ground moves are extremely difficult due to the fact that nearly everything clases with utilt if the attacks come out at the same time. The only method I've found so far involves using super armour frames and how close you can get to attacks like warios fsmash, make him take damage, but not take any yourself. With most SA moves not having much range at all, or SA frames before the actual hitbox is extended, it makes it near impossible using a screenshot method >_<

course you could try dsmashing a smart bomb or something, but good luck getting the frames perfect on that and measuring exactly the hitbox of the bomb, it may not be tied to the animation 100%

so in short, no I cant test those moves. and testing other aerials takes a long time, I wont be doing more on request for now.

Good info.
BTW, we know the exact spacing of all of our moves because we the first or second character board to have a thread showing all hit boxes.

 

[Zankoku]

See, I told you guys bit nooooooo. Y'all are literally genius's and already have everything figured out. -_-.

Um, what exactly did you tell us?

 

[<π]

he said I said bair was disjointed. ; )

 

[Zankoku]

That's a really minor disjoint. It's about expected of any attack that isn't obviously disjointed, I expect.

 

[Browny]

Er yeah I was about to say that

Almost every attack is disjointed to some extent. Some examples of attacks which apparently have no disjoint are falcon/ganon sideb, ddd nair and possibly rest? either way I think its fair to assume 99% of attacks are disjointed, with invisible hitboxes and/or invincible body parts.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Yes But I Said That The Foot Was Disjointed And I Have Been Told By Multiple People That I Was Wrong!!!!!!!!

:edit:
Dumb caps rule. -_-

 

[Zankoku]

If you want to call that disjointed, then sure, nearly every attack in the game is disjointed. If you want to talk about disjointed in the sense that it accomplishes what you want a disjointed attack to actually do, then no, it's not. I'm pretty sure this is what I told you on AIM, as well.

 

[Judo777]

I actually remember Ankoku already mentioning that most moves are slightly disjointed because if they werent they would have what he called negative hitboxes i bleieve. Those are hitboxes where they dont even extend outdside of ur own hurtbox at least thats what i remember. So yea the foot is disjointed. If you can find i way to hit some one with the foot so that they cannot reach out and touch any part of the leg with their hitbox which would have to be a tiny as hell aerial then yea it could be a good disjoint but since most aerials have more than 1 cm long hitboxes i dont think it will be a huge deal.

 

[Lightning93]

Hello, I'm here for a friend who would like to know the approximate kill percentages for each of Shiek's viable kill moves.

Would there be a thread containing this data?

Thank you.

 

[Leafplayer452]

Umm Sheik's kill moves are Usmash (tipper is always better) and Bair, I dont know the percents in which they would kill though and I think someone made a thread but sorry Im too lazy at the moment when Im typing this, I might edit it later with the link if I ould find it

 

[<π]

Super sweet bair is awesome but if you use bair a lot...
nair kills well from the center around 180 with good DI on most characters
Dsmash is similar with good DI you can live purty long around the center of the stage 180ish.

I find uair kills pretty well off the top around like 150 for mk? I wanna play around with ftilt uair set ups and see if the are true like ftilt usmash is on a lot of the cast.

tipper usmash kills most of the cast around 100.

side usmash kills better than nair so keep that and mind and don't ignore it.

 

[J4pu]

Dthrow > Ftilt
I unintentionally got it to work once in a match, does it normally work? or was it just bad DI or a specific character or something.

 

[<π]

bad di. and bad... not doing anything. it can work but it shouldn't.

 

[j0s3ph]

Hello, I'm here for a friend who would like to know the approximate kill percentages for each of Shiek's viable kill moves.

Would there be a thread containing this data?

Thank you.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248776
whoever collected these is a really awesome dude, but not awesome enough to collect the percentages with human di. deal with it.

 

[-Mars-]

How good is Sheiks shield?

 

[Judo777]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248776
whoever collected these is a really awesome dude, but not awesome enough to collect the percentages with human di. deal with it.

It kind of impossible to measure kill percentages with DI because no one can perfectly DI a move but maybe a good idea to get averages

 

[clowsui]

hmm the metagame isn't to this point yet but it's possible according to DMG to SDI tipper usmash into the side hits. dmg went half the length of FD like this lol...his SDI is proven to be good as he SDI'd a fart into tech

light was the sheik that experimented so verify w/ him

you have to anticipate it of course but most people understand when they mess up vs. sheik and are in range for a tipper so this might change some things

 

[Lightning93]

Alright thank you guys, I'll be sure to share with my friend.

 

[saviorslegacy]

hmm the metagame isn't to this point yet but it's possible according to DMG to SDI tipper usmash into the side hits. dmg went half the length of FD like this lol...his SDI is proven to be good as he SDI'd a fart into tech

light was the sheik that experimented so verify w/ him

you have to anticipate it of course but most people understand when they mess up vs. sheik and are in range for a tipper so this might change some things

Yes but that's DMG.
You don't see everyone pulling Mango's on Foxes.

 

[<π]

How good is Sheiks shield?

decent. it protects her top half better than the average sheild but her feet are always open even if you angle the sheild down...

 

[Tristan_win]

So currently I'm trying to lay foundation in making my sheik ever BETTER then before I went all off and on and a simple way to do that is adding techs and options. Now brawl isn't a super technical game and sheik doesn't have like some godly tech she can do that will make her instantly better (some various of jack chain is still on the table for that) but things like pivot grabbing is important.

I have a few ideas on what I should add to my game like I said above but it would be nice to hear what you guys are thinking.

Pivot grab = safer and has longer range
Pivots in general = weak nairs into pivots dsmash FTW, and ftilt spacing of course
Jack chain = might as well learn it sense it's looking to become useful
practice canceling the thrown needle animation at the ledge = low tier on the tier list but useful
practice the force vanish at the ledge only to reappear above or sweet spot the ledge = ...like this is the only way to gimp game and watch. ~high risk high reward
practice the full hop needle storm (you get no landing lag for the needle storm) ~ better spam = better match ups.
Perfect buffing for ftilt so I will stop randomly moving forward = better combos
Learn to perfect reverse Ftilt = better combos
Perfect spacing of ftilt, Neo said it's unshielded grabable and safe ...generally = safe ftilt spam, do I need to say more?
OoS Dash attack, out of Sheild is ****ing amazing, can't wait to make this a main part of my game. Out of everything I've learn with sheik I'm surprise I've so down play this move up until now. With good timing I think you can pretty much punish like 90% of all attacks in the game with dash attack OoS.

Can anyone think of something else to add to this list, I already use dacus, chain (not jack), dtilt, vanish to more or less it's max. Also ideas on how to practice this would be nice. I'm not gifted technical, what takes people less then 5 minutes to learn how to do something take me 20 minutes.

Help me become the best sheik, please? I can't play this game forever.

 

[ThreeSided]

So I was thinking about needle-gimping today. This has probably already been brought up before and in fact is probably already in use, but I'll put it out there just in case.

Say you have a full needle storm charged. Usually, we'd jump and try to hit them while they are off the stage, hoping that they use up their mid air jump at that moment so our needles can eat it up, thus gimping them. But if they don't, then they just take some extra damage, jump, and up-b to the edge. But our aerial needle trajectory is perfect for what I'd call a "needle trap": Rather than actually aiming for them, you aim ABOVE them. That way, if they jump at any time while there are needles above them, they will have their jump eaten up.

In fact, if we could remember the maximum recovery distance for each character with their second jump and recovery moves, then we can memorize the "catch 22 zone", in which if we "needle trap" that particular character as they fall, they will either jump and get gimped by the needles, or just not get hit, but then just barely fail recovery due to distance. This would give each character this "danger zone" or "catch 22 zone" that we could remember. It would be great for mind games: Once they realize where their "Catch-22" zone is, you could needle storm earlier when they try to jump earlier, etc. I think this could really be a useful technique/mindgame for shiek's to utilize. It might be hard/almost impossible for certain characters, but it would still be pretty sweet to utilize.

 

[rathy Aro]

@Tristan: Not sure if this is useful to you, but this is what Pierce suggested is holding the "average player" back. Its not sheik specific, but just stuff that everyone is supposed to be able to and may be more useful than adding techs.

Before anyone tries to say that I'm being too harsh, I'll give some evidence to back this up.
Deliberate Powershielding non-projectile attacks is extremely uncommon for most people.
Traps evolve very slowly
I don't play ICs, and I bet most of you don't either. I bet you I can still get the first hit on most of you. The average person's spacing and zoning is terrible. I can cripple most players with my Mario still.
Most people still fail to successfully execute juggles. Most people can't even juggle my Ganondorf.
Most people, including myself, still average a minimum of two technical errors a STOCK. I know, because I can READ when people make a technical error.
Most people fail to set up optimal walls with the character they MAIN. Most people don't even realize that walls need mix-ups. Most people still don't seem to understand how to create a wall that also protects against dash into shield/powershield.
Most people still don't understand how to use full jump or crouch.
Most people know about pivot grabbing, but don't properly use it unless they have a tether character.
Most people, INCLUDING MANY PROS STILL RECOVER INCORRECTLY.

@3sided: That actually sound like a fairly good idea. I think it makes sense to know exactly at what point they need to jump. Could probably stop people from recovering low eventually.

 

[Judo777]

So I was thinking about needle-gimping today. This has probably already been brought up before and in fact is probably already in use, but I'll put it out there just in case.

Say you have a full needle storm charged. Usually, we'd jump and try to hit them while they are off the stage, hoping that they use up their mid air jump at that moment so our needles can eat it up, thus gimping them. But if they don't, then they just take some extra damage, jump, and up-b to the edge. But our aerial needle trajectory is perfect for what I'd call a "needle trap": Rather than actually aiming for them, you aim ABOVE them. That way, if they jump at any time while there are needles above them, they will have their jump eaten up.

In fact, if we could remember the maximum recovery distance for each character with their second jump and recovery moves, then we can memorize the "catch 22 zone", in which if we "needle trap" that particular character as they fall, they will either jump and get gimped by the needles, or just not get hit, but then just barely fail recovery due to distance. This would give each character this "danger zone" or "catch 22 zone" that we could remember. It would be great for mind games: Once they realize where their "Catch-22" zone is, you could needle storm earlier when they try to jump earlier, etc. I think this could really be a useful technique/mindgame for shiek's to utilize. It might be hard/almost impossible for certain characters, but it would still be pretty sweet to utilize.

Wow I think that this is a very good idea! This could be on many different characters. The only downside is that this is only effective at ranges fairly close to their max recovery range so we would still have to put the effort to get them that far offstage but still very solid. Also this could be very effective against characters that are heavily relient on their second jump ie Falco Ness Lucas

 

[J4pu]

Do needles momentum cancel? I've been using Fair > needle charge > cancel charge to survive horizontal knockback recently and it seems to work pretty well.
if this is well known, well, yeah I haven't read up very much on sheik.

by DA OoS you mean shield drop > DA ?
or is there some way of cancelling shield (with something that can be cancelled) into DA?

 

[saviorslegacy]

Do needles momentum cancel? I've been using Fair > needle charge > cancel charge to survive horizontal knockback recently and it seems to work pretty well.
if this is well known, well, yeah I haven't read up very much on sheik.

by DA OoS you mean shield drop > DA ?
or is there some way of cancelling shield (with something that can be cancelled) into DA?

I've thought about using Needle's but I've always been told that it done nothing.

Correct, you must first drop your shield and then DA. A total of 14.
That isn't bad at all.

 

[Judo777]

Do needles momentum cancel? I've been using Fair > needle charge > cancel charge to survive horizontal knockback recently and it seems to work pretty well.
if this is well known, well, yeah I haven't read up very much on sheik.

by DA OoS you mean shield drop > DA ?
or is there some way of cancelling shield (with something that can be cancelled) into DA?

No they dont cancel ur momentum at all actually it just prevents you from DIing lol. There is a chance you could die from this because after u have been sent the max distance of the launch u still have a little momentum so u can drift off the screen lol i would stick to fair then fast fall to survive.

 

[DanGR]

I've got an idea I need some of the better Sheik players to try out some against some Fox and Falco players in your area.

Let's say you've got a fully charged needle storm. Falco is offstage about to phantasm to the ledge. Let's assume he's pretty far offstage, about a pivotgrab's distance away from max phantasm distance.

Now do this:

Full jump the needles at Falco just before he's about to phantasm. He's forced to phantasm immediately afterwards if he wants to survive. This most likely means he'll be aiming for the ledge, but it's possible to still land on stage so...

Drift off stage and double jump a single needle to hit him out of the second phantasm. He's now right in front of you... offstage... and low enough for him to have to use firebird. You're high enough to tether back to the ledge to edgehog. You do the math.

I managed to do this once earlier this week, but I didn't realize I was within tether distance so I upb'ed instead (not finishing the gimp, sadly)- haven't focused too much on it though. I've got other things I need to get better at first.

If it consistently happens the way I've described then it's definitely worth learning. Simply standing on stage and firing needles works too... but you're not covering the second phantasm when you do that.

edit: Wow, I've got a bunch of ideas. Is there a thread for this sort of thing? haha

 

[j0s3ph]

^I've been thinking of doing a needle cancel to hit the phantasm, because it auto puts us on the ledge, so auto-gimp if they phantasm again, if not, great position to gimp firefox/bird

 

[saviorslegacy]

I've got an idea I need some of the better Sheik players to try out some against some Fox and Falco players in your area.

Let's say you've got a fully charged needle storm. Falco is offstage about to phantasm to the ledge. Let's assume he's pretty far offstage, about a pivotgrab's distance away from max phantasm distance.

Now do this:

Full jump the needles at Falco just before he's about to phantasm. He's forced to phantasm immediately afterwards if he wants to survive. This most likely means he'll be aiming for the ledge, but it's possible to still land on stage so...

Drift off stage and double jump a single needle to hit him out of the second phantasm. He's now right in front of you... offstage... and low enough for him to have to use firebird. You're high enough to tether back to the ledge to edgehog. You do the math.

I managed to do this once earlier this week, but I didn't realize I was within tether distance so I upb'ed instead (not finishing the gimp, sadly)- haven't focused too much on it though. I've got other things I need to get better at first.

If it consistently happens the way I've described then it's definitely worth learning. Simply standing on stage and firing needles works too... but you're not covering the second phantasm when you do that.

edit: Wow, I've got a bunch of ideas. Is there a thread for this sort of thing? haha

saviorslegacy (3:36:37 PM): full hope needle's (removing their second jump)> Chain hog them trying to recover> they go under the stage some> chain drop while hanging> rising Fair stage spike> Vanish to grab the ledge/get to the stage

Yes, it is awesome, and works on more people than just Falco.
It also works as a stage spike set up too. lol

ps You can just post your findings in here and end with, "what do you think" that way it is a question. lol

Spoiler

j/k

 

[clowsui]

@dangr: hello again, remember me from olimar vs. falco? XD

in any case your findings are welcome here =)

 

[J4pu]

I've got an idea I need some of the better Sheik players to try out some against some Fox and Falco players in your area.

Let's say you've got a fully charged needle storm. Falco is offstage about to phantasm to the ledge. Let's assume he's pretty far offstage, about a pivotgrab's distance away from max phantasm distance.

Now do this:

Full jump the needles at Falco just before he's about to phantasm. He's forced to phantasm immediately afterwards if he wants to survive. This most likely means he'll be aiming for the ledge, but it's possible to still land on stage so...

Drift off stage and double jump a single needle to hit him out of the second phantasm. He's now right in front of you... offstage... and low enough for him to have to use firebird. You're high enough to tether back to the ledge to edgehog. You do the math.

I managed to do this once earlier this week, but I didn't realize I was within tether distance so I upb'ed instead (not finishing the gimp, sadly)- haven't focused too much on it though. I've got other things I need to get better at first.

If it consistently happens the way I've described then it's definitely worth learning. Simply standing on stage and firing needles works too... but you're not covering the second phantasm when you do that.

edit: Wow, I've got a bunch of ideas. Is there a thread for this sort of thing? haha

Why is this better than just needle the first phantasm > edgehog the 2nd?

does anybody use sheik's foxtrot? it looks trippy as hell, like she's ice skating or something and it's only baaaarely slower than her run. I think you could mess with some ppl's heads by using it. But then is it worth the increased chance of tripping? Probably not most of the time, but it looks pretty sick.

 

[<π]

*raises hand*
I always imagine it looks like sheik is going to stop moving or that it looks like she changed direction. I think people are like "cool I'm safe now" and they'll sheild drop and/or try and go on the offensive. so well time dash attacks or grabs or aerials areamazing in these situations.

@Threeside needle trap Idea
It works versus a lot of the not so awesome characters but most have ways around it or are just built to hande it already. most characters can wait it out while DIing towards stage without issue. espeacially at the ranges that we can affect with our needles.

@ needle gimp to edge hog.
just do that screw flashy you want to do the most with the least effort if you needle falco while he is recovering at stage level (and he should never be doing that against you btw) then grab the edge. if he starts to up b and is actually in range ledge drop chain and regrab for invulnerability when he is in range.

@rathy
Perice7d is so right~ things like these are what I'm always talking about when I am saying dacus is not the biggest part of our game. spacing; espeacially with sheik; is so important. learning where and when to bait and punish; how to.
And recovery... thats huge too. sheiks recovery is so good it's about learning the limits of you and your opponent. I'll probablly make a post about this exact statement but sheik's upB (unlike horrible zeldas) pretty much has infinite directions (prob around 32 or 64 more accurately compared to zelda's 16) you can go. its very important to understand this when one of those directions can mean a stock

 

[-dMT-]

I'm pretty sure Farore's Wind has the same number of direction, or at least certainly a lot more than 16. Testing was done on this a while back.